00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.23 00:06:17 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 00:25:19 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Ave atque vale.) 00:45:21 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:45:34 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 01:03:17 --- quit: TodPunk (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 01:31:12 BTW which forth supports STM32? 01:32:04 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 01:34:28 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-115-87-208-167.revip4.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 01:34:50 I don't know of any right now. 01:38:48 Then we have identical results :) 01:48:08 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 01:49:23 --- nick: Adeon -> Adeolos 01:54:22 ? 01:54:55 Riscy Pygness supports the Olimex STM32-P103 board 01:55:18 http://pygmy.utoh.org/riscy/cortex/ 02:09:35 just saw many magnet motor video on youtube 02:09:49 that made me think there're full of cheaters on youtube 02:09:57 were you attracted to it ;-) 02:10:18 (magnetic attraction) 02:10:39 yunfan: you mean the old 'perpetual motion' magnet motor ? 02:10:56 yunfan: The Internet is a web of lies. 02:11:19 The most valuable skill you can have surfing it is bullshit detection. 02:11:35 i just dont know why they like to show fake video 02:11:40 the permanent magnet motor does work, it just uses the energy to make the magnets, which weakens them, and eventually it wont run 02:11:48 because their wbesite dont ask people do donate or bought sometime 02:11:55 tp: It doesn't work either because friction will stop it. 02:12:34 it does work, but it uses up the energy used to create the magnets in the first place 02:12:57 No "pure magnet" motor ever made has lasted for longer than a few hours before it simply ran down. 02:13:03 there is no such thing as 'perpetual motion' we all know that 02:13:06 sure 02:13:42 it's a terribly inefficent way to make a motor that only runs s short while 02:14:01 takes a lot of energy to make powerful magnets 02:14:11 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 02:14:37 I find it amazing how many people who should know better, get sucked into those scams 02:14:46 well if the universe is designed , there might be some bugs for us 02:15:14 yunfan: the universe has been pretty consistent for me up to date ;-) 02:15:18 like in the game minecraft. you could got a free auto pwm generator for using their bug 02:15:52 I've never played it, Id rather program that play a video game 02:16:21 when I program, I can earn some money, playing games just uses up my precious time 02:17:52 but you dont made any gained thing 02:18:40 ? 02:18:42 :) 02:19:03 I did play a fair few video games when I was younger and didnt know better tho ... 02:20:23 i mean materials 02:20:30 like food mined ore 02:21:06 when I program ? 02:21:20 yes at least works for me 02:21:48 I make instruments that help make food when I program 02:22:05 all my programming is embedded, for process control 02:22:15 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 02:22:35 tho my next project is a security alarm, so that only helps protect property 02:24:07 You mean you're aiding and abetting theft, tp? 02:24:32 After all "property is theft". 02:24:35 no I'm unaiding and unabetting theft :) 02:25:33 taking my property without paying is what I call theft 02:25:57 Talk to the aboriginals about thatâ¦ ;) 02:26:12 I live with one 02:26:19 shes such a racist 02:27:00 they didnt really have a notion of property as I understand it, they saw themselves as caretakers of the land 02:27:19 and then my ancestors came along, we understand property very well 02:27:38 and have the guns to back up our beliefs 02:27:59 after all, the heart of english law, is all about property 02:28:17 Yep. And during the imperial era, the theft of same. 02:28:22 break the law, and they take your property 02:28:42 if you have no property, you're breaking the law 02:29:53 oh dear, freebsd and I arent getting along very well when it comes to adobe flash 02:37:02 how many power do you use for one day? 02:42:56 10,000 Zigawatts ? 02:43:16 about the same as ttmrichter 02:43:32 I pay about 300RMB/mo for my electricity. 02:43:47 I don't know how much that is 02:43:53 Electricity is about 1RMB/KWh (close enough for jazz). 02:43:59 So about 300KWh/mo. 02:44:31 I pay about $500 AUD a month 02:45:40 well well well, whod have thunk it ? Opera and Flash work fine under Linux emulation in FreeBsd 02:58:37 $500 aud is too huge 02:58:43 are you opening a factory? 02:59:19 tp which opera are you using? the old version or the webkit inside version :] 02:59:55 ttmrichter: i saw a guy in wuhan installed a solar power station and sold power to nation power network 03:00:12 yunfan: The average American or Canadian generates 4 times the pollution of the average Chinese person (and this doesn't take into account that most goods made in China go to the US). The average European "only" generates twice as much and I think Australia is somewhere between the two. 03:00:23 We westerners are a wasteful lot. :) 03:02:28 ttmrichter: average data is untrust 03:03:03 ttmrichter: in china there're so many people out of power supply and many others dont have extra devices for wasting 03:03:17 Yes, but this average also includes all of China's industries. 03:03:59 I do agree that the Chinese numbers are going to go up as wealth spreads 03:04:01 . 03:04:30 that would made many pressures to the earth and scientists 03:05:06 yunfan: our power is very expensive 03:05:21 yunfan: Yep. 03:05:25 i am wondering if i could installed a solar power station for my parents 03:05:40 But on the other hand the western powers are the LAST people in a position to criticize the Chinese. 03:05:44 tp: why it costs so much? 03:05:45 "Lead by example" I always say. :) 03:05:52 I have a 1Kw solar array and inverter on this building, which feeds back into the grid 03:06:17 If I had ten of those, tp, I could be free of any need for the grid. :) 03:06:18 yunfan: it's australia, 3rd most expensive country in the world 03:06:40 ttmrichter: me too, in summer 03:06:42 ttmrichter: you could installed that 03:07:09 ttmrichter: chinese goverment encourage citizen does that 03:07:33 tp: what about the total costs of your 1kw solar array? 03:08:03 yunfan: I don't have the SPACE. 03:08:13 All the encouragement in the world doesn't generate square metres. 03:08:28 Nor does it generate the money to buy and maintain the equipment. 03:08:55 ttmrichter: you dont have independant house? 03:08:59 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 03:09:13 I have an apartment. 03:09:16 Two bedroom. 03:09:22 ttmrichter: a 2KW station only costs 10k RMB 03:09:29 "Only". 03:09:34 i am planning to bought that for my parents 03:09:35 That's two months of my salary. 03:09:47 same to me 03:09:55 but it could run for 20 years 03:10:12 compared to other devices, i think this is not that expensive 03:10:36 i remember the days when a 586 PC costs 20k RMB :[ 03:11:50 It's also only 2KW. 03:12:11 So it would reduce my monthly electricity bill by about 60RMB. 03:12:24 20,000/60 = ... a very large number of months before that paid for itself. 03:14:25 tp: what about the total costs of your 1kw solar array? ... I don't know, it was on the building I lease 03:14:48 yes if you want saiving money, that not a good choice 03:14:58 but i just want to got some independancies 03:15:15 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 03:15:18 tp: you havnt paid for that? 03:16:51 no, it was on the building when I started leasing it 2 years ago 03:17:10 it belongs to the building owner, I only rent 03:17:34 yunfan: I'd have a lot more independence with 10-20KRMB in my hand than a solar array that doesn't even begin to cover my power needs. 03:17:39 For starters I could travel. ;) 03:25:11 ttmrichter: if you want hold RMB in hands, i dont think this is a good idea 03:25:35 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 03:30:53 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:19:56 So, for a (by Forth standards) truly massive ARM processor, what would be the best implementation technique? 04:20:18 I'm leaning in the direction of subroutine threading, but am open to other suggestions. 04:30:51 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.50.50.204) joined #forth 04:37:46 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 05:22:45 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Ave atque vale.) 05:47:21 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-115-87-208-167.revip4.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 05:47:30 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 06:01:34 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06:13:51 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-115-87-208-167.revip4.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:29:11 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 07:13:25 Ya, subroutine threading leaves the way open for basic native-code compiling later. :) 07:14:23 I have the impression you can get decent speed gains (and maybe even smaller size) if you do basic stack->register and constant folding... 07:14:46 ok, back to work; just dropped in for a sec. 07:23:59 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 07:24:22 --- quit: amca (Quit: Farewell) 07:28:09 tathi: ARM's subroutine handling is too ugly for this. 07:30:39 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 07:31:03 --- nick: Nisstyre-laptop -> Nisstyre 07:33:37 ttmrichter: for cortex m serial, isnt there two stack pointer ? 07:33:51 but its ugly, the two are not exits both! 07:34:43 There's the SP (which has to be manually manipulated) and the LR (which has to be manually stored and restored). 07:53:42 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 08:14:55 --- join: paxcoder (~Icedove@unaffiliated/paxcoder) joined #forth 08:15:31 --- quit: paxcoder (Client Quit) 08:28:29 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 08:30:40 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-115-87-208-167.revip4.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:00:19 ttmrichter: really? I thought it was pretty standard RISC stuff...you have to have an explicit prolog and epilog, but that's not too bad. 09:00:23 Am I missing something? 09:00:33 * tathi tathi goes to find his copy of the ARM ARM 09:01:48 Huh. why did my autocomplete do that? 09:06:44 Hrm...this is old (second edition paper copy of the Architecture Reference Manual), but it looks to me like you just do `BLX addr` and then in a leaf subroutine you do `BX R14` to return, and in a subroutine which calls others you do `PUSH R14` for a prolog and `POP PC` for a return. 09:07:44 That doesn't seem ugly to me...PowerPC and MIPS both require longer prolog/epilogs IIRC (as they don't have dedicated PUSH/POP instructions). 09:07:57 ttmrichter: I have done very old school FIG/MVP on ARM and used indirect threading. NEXT is only two instructions so in-line it with every word. It is plenty fast plus top of stack is in a register for each stack. I used a loop stack and an FP stack as well. 09:10:11 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:11:24 regnirps: fair enough; I don't know ARM well. I just remember doing DTC (isForth) on PPC and having it be *far* slower than STC. 09:12:39 Yeah. ARM has great instructions for Forth once you learn to program in assembler. 09:15:07 Like load a register from address in another register offset and shift arbitrary number of bits and pre or post increment. SIngle instruction single cycle. 09:15:58 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@host226-1-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 09:16:34 And if you don;t use Thumb, all instruction are conditional which gets rid of all the simple branhes. 09:16:48 branches 10:14:28 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Remote host closed the connection) 10:21:34 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@host226-1-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 11:34:21 --- join: ASau``` (~user@p4FF96CC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 11:38:06 --- quit: ASau`` (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 12:08:21 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 13:09:47 anyone know what's up with forth.org? 13:09:54 or rather what's down? :) 13:11:25 yo tangentstorm 13:13:22 heya 13:13:47 RodgerTheGreat: i got mako to install on the emulator but i haven't figured out how to get adb to recognize my device yet :/ 13:14:09 did you enable "developer mode" and then turn on USB debugging? 13:14:53 no, because i didn't see anything like that on my nexus. :/ i went looking because i remembered having to do it on my phones. 13:15:00 http://purplewelshy.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/getting-developer-mode-on-a-google-nexus-7-android-4-2/ 13:15:03 it is hidden 13:15:12 should have looked on google :) 13:15:40 haha "you are four steps from being a developer" 13:15:43 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@98.195.26.149) joined #forth 13:15:44 if that's all it took... 13:16:18 yo doc 13:16:39 howdy 13:18:31 meanwhile i got sidetracked working on my b4 stuff...took it back to turbo pascal 5.5... https://github.com/sabren/b4/tree/master/turbo 13:19:39 cool beans 13:50:45 --- quit: cfjdet (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:14:46 --- join: cfjdet (~androirc@pD9E25E11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 14:28:24 --- quit: cfjdet (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 15:16:50 is there an equivalent to C's indent tool for Forth? 15:18:47 that sounds reasonably easy to implement 15:19:46 aha, how about docforth? http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/docforth.html 15:20:45 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 15:23:34 http://www.excamera.com/files/docforth/docforth/docforth.fs.html not bad 15:25:42 james bowman makes some cool stuff 15:26:01 that's good but I'm really looking for something to just pretty print back to another .fs file 15:27:20 how about this + lynx --dump ? :) 15:28:39 or you could just hack up docforth, since you have the source right there and you're only asking to *remove* features 15:53:55 but that would require reading and understanding someone's code, which all sane developers have learned to avoid at all costs :D 15:54:46 like right now, i'm installing some dude's thing called Mako on my android tablet. It seems cool but i dare not look inside... :D 16:01:19 tangentstorm: Heh. I agree. I like to use other people's good ideas, but not their code. There's almost always something I don't like about it. Besides, if your MO is to leverage other people's code then you will spend all your time building stupid scaffolding to make incompatible bits of code play nicely together... 16:09:25 --- join: cfjdet (~androirc@pD9E25E11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 16:14:37 but but object-oriented code will save us ! 16:14:42 everything plugs into everything ! 16:15:48 I think that my turbo pascal 5.5 code is actually better than the modern fpc code with classes and generics. 16:16:07 I spend less time messing around with those abstractions and just get the work done. 16:17:14 although the editor is horrible so it's not formatted very nicely, and there are places where the display stuff is really messy because i didn't have my colored text library handy 16:18:54 tangentstorm: lemme know if you actually get makoid working properly 16:23:37 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 16:36:19 RodgerTheGreat: it's still not loading onto the device 16:36:40 how are you attempting to do it 16:37:00 i accidentally launched the emulator and so it took like half an hour for my machine to recover :/ 16:37:31 it should be as simple as running "ant installd" 16:37:32 i'm in android studio. i have usb debugging enabled and i'm hooked up to the device. 16:37:44 ah an ide 16:37:44 it loaded onto the emulator with no problem 16:37:53 just use the command line 16:38:03 run the task I specified 16:39:35 i think the device i'm seeing in adb is the emulator i set up. i don't think i'm connected 16:44:04 /home/michal/ver/androidMako/build.xml:55: sdk.dir is missing. Make sure to generate local.properties using 'android update project' or to inject it through the ANDROID_HOME environment variable. 16:44:23 so run "android update project" 16:44:30 command not found 16:45:13 i installed everything through android studio 16:45:16 --- quit: cfjdet (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:45:22 well then figure out why that command isn't in your path I guess 16:46:01 yeah, i don't think this is my problem... like i said, everything ran fine in the emulator. it's just not physically talking to my device 16:46:31 well then you're left with the IDE problem diagnostic procedure: click around through random dialogs and then try it again 16:47:29 ah there we go... i just needed to accept the key 16:47:47 it had popped up earlier but someone was talking at me and i must have misclicked 16:48:37 alright! "please download or compile roms to play" :) 16:49:02 and for that you'll just use adb push to copy over some rom files to the device as I explained earlier 16:56:48 hmm.. I'm getting HeadlessExceptions when I try to run the *.fs files under mako. It seems to build fine, it's just not seeing that I'm on a GUI desktop... 16:56:53 odd, I know this worked last time i tried it 17:02:12 okay, well i don't know why this is screwing up, but it looks like it generates the roms so i will ignore it and just copy the files over :) 17:04:32 um ok 17:05:04 bbiab making pizza 17:10:17 ok back now... had to run back out for a while. I'm definitely using docforth at least as inspiration, but may wind up hacking my own from scratch 17:18:05 I see now that the rom's i'm generating are a result of the HeadlessException I don't now the correct way to generate them. 17:18:09 know 17:18:49 but perhaps it will be obvious once i solve the HeadlessException. 17:19:29 I've got a couple other java apps that are working fine but they're not using ant... 17:20:10 i think maybe ant's trying to use the wrong sdk despite my JAVA_HOME 17:20:27 or perhaps my java_home is misconfigured 17:20:34 * tangentstorm investigates 18:20:38 --- quit: TodPunk (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.) 18:24:17 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:28:44 --- join: cfjdet (~androirc@pD9E25E11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:28:31 * tangentstorm has forth warrior2 running on his nexus 7 now :) 19:30:02 nice! 19:31:02 MakoForth itself doesn't work for me, but all the games do. 19:31:46 I guess I'm going to have to do some hacking on Mako now. 19:32:52 I really like retro but the wordset is quite different from traditional forths so it's not always easy to map traditional forth code to it. 19:33:12 Write the missing Forth words. :) 19:33:37 It shouldn't be too hard to adapt an existing Forth vocabulary into it, surely? 19:33:50 tangentstorm: yes its quite difference 19:34:10 tp: Word back from my source: 40RMB for the MCU and the break-out board is 100RMB for 10 pieces. 19:34:20 (Apparently buying one piece of the latter isn't possible through him. :D) 19:35:03 --- quit: cfjdet (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 19:36:05 So if I want two of those F4 components plus break-out boards so I can actually use the pins it'll cost me about AU$32. 19:37:05 ttmrichter: it's not hard to write the words, but i've found that I wind up jumping all over the place to a) find the word and then b) try to understand how it works and how it should be implemented because i don't fully understand what the words mean. 19:37:35 tangentstorm: I mean write a FORTH vocabulary so you write in a language you know instead of Retro. 19:38:05 ttmrichter: yeah, i know. there's already a forth vocabulary in retro, but it's incomplete 19:38:57 i've added a bit to it but i just haven't gone through and implemented everything. 19:42:03 I kind of want to make this little translating dictionary thing I've been thinking of as a "forthesaurus" 19:42:28 It would basically be a database of all the standards and any dialects in active use. 19:42:42 Could have a little dinosaur logo :) 19:43:01 FORTH IS NOT A DINOSAUR! 19:43:20 (Ignore the scaly/feathered skin. And the claws. And the beady eyes.) 19:43:52 --- join: cfjdet (~androirc@pd9e252a6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:44:44 :) 19:45:43 I was going to do something zombie themed for pascal. 19:46:11 tp: (We need to have a dinosaur logo for this Forth dongle thing.) 19:46:56 T-Rex and "raptors" are cliche by now. 19:46:59 Maybe a trilobyte? 19:47:07 Yeah, I think a trilobyte logo. :) 19:48:00 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 19:48:09 factor's logo is cool 19:48:34 how about a glyptodon? :) not really a dinosaur, but pretty cool :) 19:48:44 (like a gigantic prehistoric armadillo) 19:49:48 i missed what you guys are working on 19:49:56 what's the forth dongle? 19:50:09 tangentstorm: An STM32F415RG on a USB stick. 19:50:30 ttmrichter: you have that? 19:50:41 Set up so that you plug it in, open up a serial terminal program and you're in an interactive Forth on one of the hottest MCUs out there. 19:50:51 nice 19:50:55 The Forth will have vocabularies for all the subsystems. 19:51:07 yunfan: No, it's in the planning stages. I just got a price quote on my experimental kit. 19:51:25 About 200RMB for two of the MCUs plus some break-out boards so I can access the pins. 19:52:09 ttmrichter: then do you have plan add flash storage for it? 19:52:17 It comes with 1MB Flash on chip. 19:52:31 i hope i could have my own encrypted usb disk 19:52:37 1mb seems too small for that 19:52:43 This wouldn't be a USB stick. 19:52:49 DISK, I mean. 19:52:52 This is a processor stick. 19:53:11 oop 19:53:34 1mb could only used for store your ssh private key :] 19:53:35 ttmrichter: did you end up overcoming your problems with Maker 19:53:36 The idea is to make a cheap, powerful dongle that people can use to a) experiment with a powerful CPU and b) experiment with Forth. 19:53:48 RodgerTheGreat: Maker? 19:54:03 Maker, the compiler used to produce MakoVM roms 19:54:15 Oh, I haven't tried any of that. 19:54:24 erk 19:54:28 well i think a mobile forth console with the accessbility to apis could get forth more lovers 19:54:30 I meant tangentstorm, sorry 19:54:49 Heh. I was wondering. :) 19:55:06 will learn android dev after my learning some math 19:55:40 RodgerTheGreat: I have forth warrior 2 and deeper running on my tablet now :) 19:55:46 sweet 19:56:01 MakoForth itself doesn't run though... it just exits immediately. 19:56:55 yeah that's because it doesn't have a graphical frontend 19:57:07 try this: 19:57:08 maker demos/Forth/MakoForth.fs --run 19:57:49 and you'll see some unit tests run and then it will exit 19:58:11 Loko and MASICA should also be usable with the tablet keyboard 19:58:20 ttmrichter: do you use win32 or *nix ? 19:58:26 you can find both in their respective directories under /demos 19:58:29 yunfan: Linux. 19:58:39 tangentstorm: how do you like the keyboard? 19:58:52 gday all 19:59:21 ttmrichter: then which circuit sim software do you use? 19:59:34 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 19:59:39 yunfan: I won't be using any. I have a hardware designer. 19:59:44 * ttmrichter points to the newly arrived tp. 19:59:56 'E'S THE ONE WHAT DONE IT, GUV'N'R! 20:00:16 hehe, terry the technician' 20:00:38 RodgerTheGreat: so far so good. i like having arrows :) i'm used to dvorak though 20:00:57 it would be pretty easy to make that change 20:01:00 we don't speak like that in australia, it's 'gday, beautie, bonzer, ripper, mate!" 20:01:03 ohhh 20:01:19 (just read the lack of front end for MakoForth comment) 20:01:46 yeah MakoForth is just the compiler/interpreter guts of ForthWarrior 20:02:08 ttmrichter: then which circuit sim software do you use? ... we wont need any sims for the forth dongle design 20:02:27 there's also this one, which *does* have a frontend but as I recall it is quite flaky: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/demos/Editor/MakoDE.fs 20:03:39 tp: i want to learn anolog circuit, that have me to find a sim software 20:03:41 20:03:49 and the learning of math :[ 20:04:47 yunfan: there are lots of analog sims available for Linux/ *nix, 99% are GPL'd or free 20:06:37 RodgerTheGreat: do you mind if I steal this? :) 20:06:39 need the name or the list 20:06:48 tangentstorm: which part? 20:07:08 yunfan: I always recommend gEDA : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEDA 20:07:09 also technically everything is WTFPLed so asking me is simply a matter of politeness 20:07:22 tp: okay 20:07:34 RodgerTheGreat: any/all of it really :D I don't know what i'm looking for. But I was planning to bootstrap a forth environment for my turbo pascal thing. 20:07:47 awesome. :) 20:08:16 tangentstorm: MakoForth is not a super-great forth implementation. It's entrails are sort of a semi-threaded, semi-not thing. That said, if you find it easy to understand go right ahead. 20:08:37 retro's got a really nice bootstrapping document but like i was just saying before you came in... retro != traditional forth 20:08:46 tru dat 20:09:18 i actually like it but if i try to teach it then students lose out on the wealth of forth knowledge lying around 20:09:52 I wonder if you will choose to retain any of the deviations from standard forth in my forth implementations 20:10:03 tp: Nice. 20:10:05 First I have to recognize them. :) 20:10:10 I'm going to download and build this. :) 20:10:20 * tangentstorm daydreams about the forthesaurus again... 20:10:37 what is this 20:10:50 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-115-87-208-167.revip4.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 20:11:13 tp: On the subject of the Forth in this thing, how should we do documentation? I'm actually kind of partial to making it all on-board. 20:11:17 itsy / johnmetcalf posted somethin on twitter a while back about how to reconcile vocabularies 20:11:22 Accessible through the interacter. 20:11:40 ttmrichter: I've always been impressed with the Amforth documentation style 20:11:41 tangentstorm: ah, so CPAN 20:11:49 I responded that maybe forth should have a thesaurus to go with its dictionary. 20:11:52 tp: What's the approach there? 20:12:05 it's just a neat webpage layout 20:12:18 very neat, very well laid out, easy to read etc 20:12:24 RodgerTheGreat: no, more like a translating dictionary / interforth compatability thing. although a cpan would be nice too. 20:12:37 tp: Web page wouldn't be feasible to be on-board. 20:12:52 like all doc, greatness doesnt just happen, someone put a lot of work into the Amforth doc, but it wssnt the Amforth author 20:13:18 a translating dictionary could be quite interesting. I wonder how you'd build a metacompiler which knew how to adapt all the goofy corners of one forth dialect to another 20:13:22 no, but a good webpage makes it easy to read, and you can do it without the hardware, just a browser 20:13:37 such a tool would be astonishingly powerful for uniting the forth community 20:13:45 I guess I could do the docs in a way that becomes a web page or online docs. 20:14:38 RodgerTheGreat: it wouldn't have to be any kind of fancy metacompiler thing... i'm just picturing a database, and maybe some specifications by example showing inputs and outputs 20:14:48 http://amforth.sourceforge.net/UG/windows.html 20:15:05 it seems different to last time I looked, may be my browser 20:15:59 I've actually been wanting to do something like this for /all/ programming languages for about a decade and a half... Forth seems like a nice place to start. 20:16:08 my point is a well laid out web document, perhaps based on a CMS does wonders when getting into a new thing 20:16:32 Yes, why not start with the language most prone to weird fragmentation, eh tangenstorm? :D 20:16:33 too many forth projects are just a jumble of docs 20:16:38 tp: I think one reason php is so popular despite it's flaws is how well the documentation is laid out. 20:16:50 tangentstorm: you may well be right 20:17:00 tp: Even more are undocumented. 20:17:23 true 20:17:23 php.net has (or had?) one page per function, and if you were looking at a string function, you'd see all the other string functions down the left side. 20:17:38 then underneath, you'd see all the annotations from the community members. 20:17:45 That's impressive, tangentstorm, but still only reference docs. 20:17:58 One thing that kills projects dead is documentation that is 100% reference oriented. 20:18:10 Useful only to people who already know the subject to some degree or another. 20:18:17 true. 20:18:26 many brilliant hackers have made some awesome things, but their doc is crap, and it's crap because just making the awesome thing wore them out, and doc is a whole separate job 20:18:35 :D 20:19:00 Useful documentation has tutorial-level introductions, user guide-level stuff for each major subsystem, perhaps even "cookbooks" to show idioms. 20:19:04 The holonforth guy has some interesting literate programming tools. 20:19:22 I used to be a fan of literate programming. 20:19:24 ttmrichter: agreed 20:20:03 Then I spotted the problem: programming requires you to be good at programming (which most programmers AREN'T, BTW). Literate programming requires you to be good not only at programming but also at writing. 20:20:08 I'd say I'm a fan of the idea of literate programming. 20:20:17 What are the odds of finding someone sufficiently good at both?\ 20:20:54 Yeah, but if you happen to be one of those people... :D 20:21:41 it's rare enough to be a great Hacker 20:22:07 you cant be expected to be a great author, singer, model, and hero as well 20:22:09 tp: It's actually astonishingly rare to be anything past a narrowly-focused, bumbling programmer. 20:22:15 yep 20:22:29 There's a scary story about Fizzbin out there. 20:22:40 it's rare to see anyone good at anything around here 20:22:49 Sorry. Fizzbuzz. 20:22:52 I don't claim to be some kind of Shakespeare-Turing hybrid or anything, but I did seriously intend to be a novelist long before I ever thought about programming as a carreer. 20:23:17 most folks do the minium, so they can scurry of to watch tv/sports and get drunk after 20:23:43 Here it is. 20:23:44 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/why-cant-programmers-program.html 20:24:05 i wrote a couple articles for O'Reilly some years ago. 20:24:31 reginald braithwaite would definitely be in the overlapping part of that venn diagram. 20:25:43 lol 20:25:55 how come a non programmer like me can program ;-) 20:26:10 I'm a electronics tech 20:26:26 Oh yeah, I've seen this. I was picturing an actual horror story like with ghosts or whatever. :D 20:26:55 No, this is sadly all to real. 20:27:09 The only ghosts here are the ghosts of any respect I may have once had for the programming profession. :) 20:27:14 tp simple i learnt programming even i dont have knowledges of advanced mathmetica and discrete mathematics 20:27:41 tp: what programmers do and what you do really aren't that different when it comes to thinking style. 20:28:50 like i can look across the chasm and imagine how a particular logic circuit ought to be put together... i just don't know the technical details. 20:29:46 When I visualize a program in my head though, I don't really see text. I see a sort of abstract machine with boxes and arrows and loops and stuff. 20:30:21 <- "and stuff" ... another example of my awesome writing abilities. :D 20:30:33 in other words; a working brain takes someone a long way :) 20:30:54 hmm.. 20:31:03 yeah I see boxes and arrows and things 20:31:10 arrays tend to be yellow 20:31:34 but it's not just the static structure of things, it's a machine which moves and pulses 20:32:03 yeah, it's definitely animated in my head. 20:32:28 That's one of the things I want to show with my courses... I want to make it very visual and interactive. 20:32:40 And animated. 20:32:58 but I'm no Hacker, Ive met Hackers and know some, I'm not worthy to carry their laptops :) 20:33:12 tp: I don't know for sure but I would imagine that when you work with electronics you're almost forced to visualize things in a similar way 20:33:16 code flows from their fingers like water 20:33:33 code flows from my mind like treacle, at -40C 20:33:58 I think a purely visual or animated version of what I picture in my head when I program would be incomprehensible. It's like drawing a dream; it lacks the quality that you *know* things 20:34:06 well it's also a matter of practice 20:34:10 when you dream there is nonsensory context 20:34:11 tp: Would this be similar to how circuits flow from my mind like molasses? Flowing uphill? In the depths of winter? In Antarctica? 20:34:17 tangentstorm: oh yeah, Im the 'Hacker" equivalent when it comed to electronics 20:34:45 I've been obsessed with electronics since the age of 9 20:34:54 ttmrichter: heheh 20:35:27 I look at a schematic and I see the device, I see the current flows, it's all as plain as day 20:35:35 I got obsessed with computers at about the same age. 20:35:37 that's true, RodgerTheGreat... and in fact i don't really see some clearly defined diagram, but i can't look at a loop without getting a sense that there's some instruction pointer moving around inside it. 20:35:39 Maybe a tad younger. 20:35:53 tangentstorm: What is this "loop" whereof you speak? 20:35:56 9 is a good age to be come obsessed 20:35:57 like the text for a loop i mean. 20:36:05 :) 20:36:22 Is a loop like a recursive tail call? 20:36:57