00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.17
00:00:56 <ttmrichter> Nope.
00:01:34 <ttmrichter> (I will in a few seconds, though.)
00:02:00 <ttmrichter> Ah.  Urban planning office?
00:03:52 <yunfan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPZEVexzOxY check this video 
00:05:26 <yunfan> and notice those recommend vedio on the left, see those titles, these chengguan are just official bandits
00:07:36 <ttmrichter> I'm not sure I can get videos right now.
00:07:51 <ttmrichter> My bandwidth is saturated with spec sheet down- and up-loads.  :)
00:08:15 <ttmrichter> Oh, it's loading (slowly).
00:08:18 <yunfan> you need a address behind GFW? hold on
00:08:27 <ttmrichter> No, I'm fine.
00:08:37 <ttmrichter> I'm just downloading so much crap that my bandwidth is gone.
00:09:48 <yunfan> that remind me that you are using collecge networking
00:09:56 <ttmrichter> Not right now I'm not.
00:09:58 <ttmrichter> I'm at home.
00:10:19 <ttmrichter> Can you give me a precis of what's going on here?
00:10:29 <ttmrichter> I can't figure out what the cops are doing.
00:10:41 <ttmrichter> (I mean aside from being assholes, but that's just the job description.)
00:10:47 <tp> hahahah
00:11:45 <yunfan> ttmrichter: i need to notice you that one of that guys just jump on the peddler's head
00:11:55 <yunfan> who is lying on ground
00:12:46 <yunfan> i think in your country, this could be treate as murder?
00:13:13 <ttmrichter> Four Canadian cops tazed a Polish immigrant to death ON CAMERA.
00:13:42 <ttmrichter> They were eventually (after a LOT of legal wrangling) the subject of a commission of investigation.
00:13:50 <yunfan> oh, you got bandits too, but what happened on those 4 cops after?
00:14:02 <ttmrichter> They were found at fault but not a single one of them is in jail.
00:14:09 <ttmrichter> One of them lost his job later for a completely unrelated incident.
00:14:31 <yunfan> they are cops ?
00:14:44 <ttmrichter> Not just cops, part of the RCMP, our federal police force.
00:15:00 <ttmrichter> The police force every non-Canadian thinks about (the ones in the red jackets) when they think of Canadian police.
00:15:09 <ttmrichter> The police force that's emblematic of Canada.
00:15:39 <yunfan> seems like you also have your own bandits too 
00:15:46 <yunfan> that made me feel better :]
00:15:47 <ttmrichter> Indeed.
00:15:56 <ttmrichter> Some of them are even commissioners of the national police force.
00:16:04 <ttmrichter> (Let's not even bring up the sexual scandals...)
00:17:33 <yunfan> why this could happen in canada? i thought canada are modern country
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00:17:55 <ttmrichter> Because cops are cops, politicians are politicians and power is power.
00:18:29 <ttmrichter> The only difference between our politicians and yours is that yours are more honest.
00:18:34 <yunfan> cant they be sue?
00:18:36 <ttmrichter> They come out and say that they're in power and you suck.
00:18:47 <ttmrichter> Do you have any idea how much a lawsuit costs?
00:18:53 <ttmrichter> An immigrant family doesn't have that kind of cash.
00:19:02 <ttmrichter> As it is, the mother got an undisclosed settlement from the RCMP.
00:19:06 <yunfan> i know that, that costs too much
00:19:47 <ttmrichter> Another famous case (again involving the RCMP) is the guy who was killed by a bullet to the head.  THE BACK of his head.
00:19:53 <ttmrichter> And the claim was he was attacking the officer who shot him.
00:19:59 <ttmrichter> Apparently he was attacking him backward....
00:20:14 <yunfan> there's one thing i dislike in westen political system, which is the judge
00:20:44 <ttmrichter> I dislike political parties.  They subvert and reverse democracy.
00:21:48 <yunfan> you are in canada, this could be understand
00:22:00 <yunfan> but US also have those judge
00:22:24 <yunfan> who dont need voting to be elected
01:21:12 <ttmrichter> yunfan: Judges in Canada don't get voted in.
01:21:23 <ttmrichter> And I actually prefer that to the idiot system of elected judges.
01:21:36 <yunfan> of course even US also do not either
01:21:47 <ttmrichter> Some judges in the USA do as well.
01:21:50 <ttmrichter> At the lower court levels.
01:22:13 <yunfan> is it? like senator?
01:22:29 <ttmrichter> Yes.  And prosecuting attorneys are also frequently elected in the USA.
01:22:40 <ttmrichter> So judges and prosecutors are often very, very, very corrupt as a result.
01:22:47 <yunfan> i dont know that 
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01:35:32 <ttmrichter> Well, consider the huge difference, say, between the number of blacks put on death row vs. the number of whites for the same crimes.
01:36:03 <ttmrichter> Or the inverse relationship between wealth and time served for crimes.
01:38:33 <yunfan> at least your country's system accept ( or pretend to accept) voice from people and give response :] 
01:39:24 <ttmrichter> I prefer honesty, myself.
01:39:28 <yunfan> ttmrichter: if that so, i think canadian should live in china as a foreigner
01:39:30 <ttmrichter> "You do what we want because we say so."
01:39:50 <ttmrichter> Actually I've been living here for almost as long as I've lived in Canada now.  :)
01:39:58 <ttmrichter> (OK, not quite that bad.)
01:40:32 <yunfan> yes you need to thanks your skin, i hear black people got hurt in guangzhou
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01:42:23 <ttmrichter> Actually there's more black permanent residents here in Wuhan than white ones.
01:42:35 <ttmrichter> (Probably because they're more interested in the process than most white folk.)
01:43:33 <yunfan> maybe wuhan people dont judge people from their skins 
01:44:32 <ttmrichter> Well, black teachers have problems getting jobs teaching Chinese *children*, but no problems getting jobs teaching university level or business level students.
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07:05:37 --- log: started forth/13.06.17
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07:05:37 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | links: qr.net/gforth isforth.com forthfreak.net qr.net/ans_standard | Buy forth chips from www.greenarraychips.com'
07:05:37 --- topic: set by foucist!~foucist@ps14150.dreamhost.com on [Thu Apr 26 19:32:21 2012]
07:05:37 --- names: list (clog rixard RodgerTheGreat epicmonkey nighty^ dys robotustra proteusguy itsy jyf bjorkintosh cfjdet tangentstorm Bahman_ cataska jevin c00kiemon5ter goingretro segher ASau sirdancealot djinni_ TodPunk mtm tp jimt john_metcalf ErhardtMundt dessos kulp Inode +tathi ttmrichter karswell newcup yunfan Adeon yiyus bluekelp nottwo KipIngram Backer rprimus nighty- Anarch dzho malyn)
07:05:37 -holmes(freenode.net)- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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11:37:12 <Mat2> hello
11:42:09 <KipIngram> Hey.
11:42:24 <Mat2> hi KipIngram
11:47:07 <Mat2> have some one experiences with the PIC32 here ?
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20:40:51 <yunfan> ttmrichter: are you there?
20:42:38 <yunfan> ttmrichter: can you check my asm code for f0 discovery?
20:42:41 <yunfan> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5776011/
20:50:54 <ttmrichter> I'm not exactly an ARM guru and the Thumb instruction set is something I'm literally learning as of yesterday.  :)
20:51:17 <yunfan> oop same to me
20:51:37 <yunfan> i wrote that yesterday , and that error confused me
20:51:58 <ttmrichter> I don't think #0x48 is proper syntax for a numerical literal.
20:52:59 <ttmrichter> Also, remember you're using gas.  It will have a syntax which differs from the syntax in the manual because the GNU project has never seen a standard it didn't hold in disdain.  :)
20:53:34 <tp> hey, yun and ttmrichter you guys are welcome to use my pastebin if you like :)  http://paste.portertech.org
20:54:03 <ttmrichter> LOOK OUT!  HE'S TRYING TO STEAL OUR CODE!
20:54:12 <yunfan> lol
20:54:18 <tp> hahah
20:54:41 <yunfan> tp: i bet it could get you more code if you provide mcu hosting service
20:54:46 <tp> yes, I vill make ze millions of Marks  <evil grin>
20:55:10 <yunfan> like now i am in my office, with my f0 discovery at home :[
20:55:26 <yunfan> ttmrichter: so i need to use gas syntax for immediate?
20:55:26 <tp> yunfan I'm not after code
20:55:52 <ttmrichter> Very probably I'm afraid.
20:55:55 <yunfan> that sound reasonable for the error : garbage following instruction
20:56:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I like http://hastebin.com/ , but it is hilariously bad at autodetecting languages
20:56:26 <ttmrichter> I used to like Slexy but the Prolog support got broken beyond all recognition.
20:57:35 <ttmrichter> Yunfan: $0x00aa
20:58:47 <yunfan> hmm so i need to translate these from what i see in cortex-m0 ins 
20:58:54 <ttmrichter> Yep.
20:59:01 <ttmrichter> It's even worse for Intel chips.
20:59:13 <ttmrichter> Intel has opcode destination, source ordering.
20:59:23 <ttmrichter> Gas has (or had the last time I looked) opcode source, destination.
20:59:35 <ttmrichter> That ended my interest in using Gas right there.
20:59:43 <yunfan> i know that , i like att syntax manor
20:59:57 <ttmrichter> I like my assembler to follow the syntax I see in the spec sheets.
21:00:01 * ttmrichter is funny that way.
21:00:14 <ttmrichter> Dumb little things like literals?  OK, that's fine.
21:00:23 <ttmrichter> But changing the order of arguments is *NOT* fine.
21:00:30 <ttmrichter> Nor is changing the way addressing modes are signalled.
21:00:44 <ttmrichter> Trying to make your assembler "portable" in some vague way is just idiotic.
21:01:27 <ttmrichter> Also, making up opcodes bugs me.
21:01:33 <ttmrichter> movb/movw/movl
21:01:54 <ttmrichter> That is not how the MOV instruction is documented.  Stop adding confusion to a process that's already going to be highly error-prone and annoying.
21:04:07 <yunfan> i just like those explicit movb/movw/movl
21:05:40 <ttmrichter> Now put yourself into the shoes of a newbie.
21:05:45 <ttmrichter> He's got the Intel reference open.
21:05:58 <ttmrichter> He's got some Gas source code open.
21:06:03 <ttmrichter> He's trying to find pushl.
21:06:17 <yunfan> ttmrichter: another problem is the arm mdk need you to fill form and wait accept
21:06:31 <yunfan> i really dislike arm's policy to developer
21:06:33 <ttmrichter> Which ARM MDK?  The Keil toolchain?
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21:06:45 <ttmrichter> Yeah, ARM sucks almost as badly as Intel in terms of control freakery.
21:06:55 <ttmrichter> Were they a wee tad smarter they'd make all the ARM tools absolutely free.
21:07:04 <yunfan> ttmrichter: arm's own toolchain
21:07:27 <yunfan> mips does much better
21:07:52 <yunfan> but intel dont ask you to fill form for downloading or other
21:07:56 <ttmrichter> Their core business is *not* compilers, IDEs, assemblers, etc.
21:08:03 <ttmrichter> Their core business is CPU cores.
21:08:26 <ttmrichter> Just sell the cores and give away the tools.
21:08:30 <yunfan> i saw arm provide a verilog based emulator for cortex-m0
21:08:33 <ttmrichter> At least the command line tools should be free.
21:08:44 <yunfan> but i dont think they will accept my request for playing reason
21:09:18 <ttmrichter> Absolutely not.
21:09:29 <ttmrichter> AFAICT ARM is actively hobbyist-hostile.
21:11:08 <ttmrichter> I'm also not all that impressed with STMicroelectronics' developer relations either.
21:11:18 <ttmrichter> Why is STLink proprietary and undocumented?
21:11:26 <ttmrichter> I mean really, it's just a JTAG/SWD dongle.
21:11:27 <ttmrichter> That's it.
21:11:41 <yunfan> yes, they didnt has profit on this
21:11:43 <ttmrichter> But it's a JTAG/SWD dongle with a proprietary messaging format.
21:12:03 <yunfan> they dont have developer who really love developing
21:12:12 <yunfan> they just treat it as a job
21:12:26 <ttmrichter> Unfortunately much of the embedded world is this way.
21:12:37 <ttmrichter> And it's been this way for ages.
21:15:38 <yunfan> i am glad we now has more and more hardware startup which has plenty of passional developer
21:16:52 <KipIngram> Why has it bedroom fashionable to call ourselves "developers" these days?  I think of us as engineers.
21:17:22 <ttmrichter> The day I see a programmer think and act like an engineer is when I'll take the profession seriously as an engineering discipline.
21:20:04 <KipIngram> Well, my degrees are in engineering and I'm registered with the state as an engineer, so that's what I'll think of myself as...
21:20:34 <KipIngram> And I agree with you.
21:21:00 <KipIngram> Software creation should be treated as an engineering discipline.
21:21:07 <ttmrichter> I've worked with engineers (real ones) and much of their ethos has rubbed off on me.
21:21:09 <yunfan> does engineer are just mathmetican?
21:21:19 <ttmrichter> But most programmers are hobby hackers and coding cowboys.
21:21:24 <KipIngram> No.
21:21:26 <ttmrichter> They can't be taken seriously as professionals.
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21:22:20 <KipIngram> Math, physics, etc.  Whatever math and science is required to approach one's work with rigor.
21:22:50 <KipIngram> The specifics vary by specific discipline.
21:23:24 <ttmrichter> That's one thing that was an eye-opener for me.
21:23:38 <ttmrichter> There's a core engineering ethos, but the specifics of behaviour vary WILDLY by discipline.
21:23:44 <KipIngram> What's that?
21:23:52 <KipIngram> Oh.  Yes.
21:24:44 <ttmrichter> That's when I figured out that maybe it's OK to be a coding cowboy if you're just churning out the next in a long string of CRUD apps (or their modern equivalent, the web app) but if you're working on things like embedded systems you'd better be more rigorous and less wasteful.
21:25:37 <KipIngram> I agree 100%.  Embedded work is often pretty critical.
21:25:57 <RodgerTheGreat> many "developers" manage to write elaborate PHP webapps which satisfy the desires of their clients without understanding what a loop is
21:26:04 <yunfan> i hope fpga could be cheaper and cheaprer
21:26:18 <yunfan> so that software developer could got it better
21:26:20 <RodgerTheGreat> the sad truth is that most of the time programming skills are only barely necessary
21:26:21 <ttmrichter> RodgerTheGreat: A-fucking-men.
21:27:00 <ttmrichter> KipIngram: Embedded work still requires more rigour than a CRUD/web app simply by virtue of the expense of updating it if there's a problem.
21:27:05 <yunfan> but my former leader told me that the test job from software is too less compare to hardware dev
21:27:07 <RodgerTheGreat> the term "load-bearing compost" comes to mind
21:27:26 <ttmrichter> yunfan: I don't understand.
21:27:28 <KipIngram> Software developers should keep their paws out of fpgas.  That's hardware.
21:27:39 <yunfan> ttmrichter: the testing job like unittest
21:27:49 <ttmrichter> KipIngram: I disagree.  As a software developer learning FPGAs.  :)
21:27:49 <yunfan> i dont know what you call that in hardware domain
21:28:44 <ttmrichter> KipIngram: But CODE MONKEYS should definitely keep their filthy mitts off of FPGAs.
21:28:48 <KipIngram> Well, if you learn well you will be learning hardware techniques.  If you really want to get the most out of your part.
21:28:57 <ttmrichter> KipIngram: That's my goal, yes.
21:28:57 <tp> ttmrichter, the gnu-arm-eabi kit is free and very comprehensive
21:29:20 <ttmrichter> I'm brushing up on my electronics stuff in prep for that FPGA kit.
21:29:27 <tangentstorm> I have a papillio one. Tiny little thing.
21:29:40 <tangentstorm> Still don't know how to use it. :/
21:29:49 <RodgerTheGreat> also to be perfectly fair some of the most horrendous code I've ever seen came from trained electrical engineers
21:30:02 <KipIngram> Once you start thinking about how long a signal takes to get from a to b you have stepped into the hardware world.
21:30:03 <RodgerTheGreat> followed in a close second by physicists
21:30:05 <ttmrichter> RodgerTheGreat: That's because electrical engineers should keep their filthy paws off of code.  :D
21:30:24 * ttmrichter was hired into a shop of elec-engs PRECISELY because they finally realized their code sucked badly.
21:30:31 <RodgerTheGreat> lovely
21:30:34 <ttmrichter> So we had a good working relationship.
21:30:51 <ttmrichter> They respected my work (instead of viewing it as a "simple matter of typing" like some bosses did).
21:30:55 <ttmrichter> I respected theirs.
21:31:08 <RodgerTheGreat> yep, that sounds like a good relationship
21:31:12 <ttmrichter> There was some cross-pollination of disciplines over time, but it was done in a spirit of mutual respect.
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21:31:31 <ttmrichter> Then we got the DSP guy in and that changed things yet again.
21:31:53 <KipIngram> I want to be competent at both.  At least in the embedded arena.  I don't try to table really huge software systems.
21:31:57 <ttmrichter> He did the embedded DSP work for audio processing, I did the embedded HC11 stuff for switching and I wrote the drivers for various platforms.
21:32:09 <KipIngram> But I have managed teams that do.
21:32:56 <KipIngram> DSP is a specialty.  Specialized math techniques and specialized processors.
21:34:00 <ttmrichter> Yep.
21:34:07 <yunfan> KipIngram: yes and dsp dont ask you to know its internal details 
21:34:16 <ttmrichter> Although he consulted with me on the design of his OS, most of his magic was the DSP and maths stuff.  :)
21:34:24 <yunfan> hardware from my opinion is just like a hacker's project
21:34:35 <yunfan> it ask you know many and many low level details
21:38:53 <KipIngram> Hackers hack and hope.  Proper hardware design considers power distribution, signal integrity, timing margins, etc., etc., etc.  Nothing is left to chance.
21:40:19 <RodgerTheGreat> programmable hardware favors the bold
21:41:49 <KipIngram> You still need to be sure it will work.  Otherwise it will work every time on your bench and then fall in the field because the temperature is a little higher or something.  You have to think those things through.
21:42:09 <KipIngram> S/fall/fail/
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21:43:32 <KipIngram> Programmable hardware is great, but it doesn't legitimize sloppy design.
21:46:03 <RodgerTheGreat> truth
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21:47:26 <KipIngram> I do think it encourages *daring* design, though.  You can try things that you might not otherwise try.
21:47:42 <KipIngram> And that is a very good thing.
21:48:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and iterate on your designs via incremental testing
21:48:50 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes empirical experiments are a more effective tool than exhaustive analysis
21:49:12 <RodgerTheGreat> but if you can't explain the *why* at the end of the day such experiments prove little
21:49:46 <KipIngram> Yep - right on.
21:51:20 <yunfan> i think fpga could rise the power of software developers
21:51:54 <yunfan> btw, anyone live in texas please notice the HB 2268 acts
21:52:17 <ttmrichter> yunfan: I'm not sure I want to give software developers much more power than they already have given how crappily they do their jobs.  :)
21:52:22 <KipIngram> But having a hardware-comfortable guy in the loop will make the product better.
21:52:32 <KipIngram> I live on Texas.
21:53:29 <yunfan> ttmrichter: yes consider that testing is not so serious in software domain, i worry about people's safty
21:53:39 <yunfan> KipIngram: then you need to take care of your email
21:54:30 <KipIngram> Encrypt encrypt encrypt...
21:54:38 <ttmrichter> Where "take care" is spelle... DAMN YOU KIPINGRAM!
21:54:57 <KipIngram> ?
21:55:10 <KipIngram> Ah...
21:55:17 <ttmrichter> I was about to say "where 'take care' is spelled 'encryption'".
21:55:21 <KipIngram> Sorry.  :-)
21:55:24 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night all
21:55:31 <KipIngram> Night.
21:55:49 <KipIngram> I love TrueCrypt.
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21:56:28 <KipIngram> And GnuPG.
21:57:05 <yunfan> maybe you could made a hidden storage space on your usb stick
21:57:16 <yunfan> just like some hardware products
21:58:06 <KipIngram> TrueCrypt will do that.  And hide it inside a bunch of innocuous looking stuff.
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21:59:10 <KipIngram> If someone demands your password, you give then password A, and they decrypt your credit card records or something.
21:59:28 <KipIngram> But password B decrypts your real secrets.
21:59:30 <yunfan> i need this schema
21:59:48 <yunfan> its what i need to web server
21:59:58 <KipIngram> Www.TrueCrypt.org.
22:00:00 <yunfan> like someone put a gun on your head asking your password
22:00:07 <KipIngram> Right.
22:00:08 <yunfan> you could give him a low level password
22:00:40 <yunfan> this could be a premium service i think
22:00:41 <KipIngram> They call that rubber hose decryption.  Beating you with a rubber hose until you give up your key.
22:01:02 <KipIngram> No, it's free with TrueCrypt.
22:01:32 <yunfan> i mean the web services with many different level password
22:02:15 <KipIngram> TrueCrypt can even hide an entire clandestine operating system within an outer encrypted decoy OS.
22:02:26 <KipIngram> Oh, I see.
22:04:28 <KipIngram> Encrypting your data isn't the problem.  Manipulating it is.  To use and maintain your info you have to enter your key.  Having trusted hardware and software to do that work is very problematic.
22:05:28 <yunfan> they work togother
22:05:45 <KipIngram> To be really sure you need to build your own computer from scratch.  Using things like FPGAs...  ;-)
22:07:02 <yunfan> i just found a site about that from HackerNews
22:07:38 <yunfan> http://www.nand2tetris.org/ check this
22:11:14 <KipIngram> But are they talking about using off the shelf processors?  You trust those?  I'm talking about making everything custom from the gate level.
22:11:34 <KipIngram> So that no one knows the instruction set, etc.
22:11:51 <ttmrichter> Hmmm...
22:12:06 <ttmrichter> That's called "security through obscurity" and isn't really considered security.
22:12:31 <KipIngram> Well, it would have encryption and all as well.
22:12:50 <KipIngram> Layers upon layers of protection.
22:13:29 <KipIngram> It's not so much that it's secret though.  It's that I'd trust it.
22:13:49 <ttmrichter> So as long as you implemented an ISA yourself, it doesn't matter if it's unknown.
22:14:06 <ttmrichter> (Although making an unknown ISA would at least annoy people.  There's benefit there!)
22:14:17 <KipIngram> I don't trust Intel and AMD to stay out of bed with Big Brother.
22:14:20 <yunfan> KipIngram: you are a real engineer?
22:14:34 <ttmrichter> KipIngram: I'm with you there, yes.
22:14:46 <KipIngram> Yes.
22:15:02 <KipIngram> The degrees and state certification.
22:15:12 <ttmrichter> My reasoning is simple: The US government had a shit fit when Lenovo bought IBM's PC division.  One of their stated grounds for being upset was that the Chinese government could put spying equipment into innocuous-looking chips.
22:15:12 <KipIngram> Three
22:15:31 <ttmrichter> What made them instantly think of that scenario?
22:15:31 <KipIngram> Sure.
22:15:36 <yunfan> KipIngram: can you recommend some quick turtorial for my familiar with circuits stuff
22:15:38 <ttmrichter> Perhaps because this was the scenario they were already enacting?
22:15:40 <KipIngram> And they couldn't...
22:15:46 <yunfan> ttmrichter: another chengguan's case http://video.sina.com.cn/p/news/s/v/2013-06-17/172962559055.html
22:15:47 <KipIngram> Right.
22:16:32 <yunfan> ttmrichter: china goverment and US goverment is just like samsung and apple
22:16:41 <ttmrichter> I have this weird theory that often what people accuse others of is, in some way, something they already do themselves (or at least consider doing themselves).
22:16:43 <yunfan> samsung use the follower policy
22:17:05 <KipIngram> yunfan: Sure.  Not tonight but I will give you some direction.
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22:17:29 <ttmrichter> KipIngram: Do you know of any kind of "circuits cookbook" I could use?
22:17:49 <yunfan> ttmrichter: often in a holywood movie you could hear like this: he is a assole but at least he is our assole
22:18:06 <yunfan> KipIngram: ok thanks a lot
22:18:28 <KipIngram> The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill.
22:18:41 <overdamped> Second for Art of Electronics... good book
22:19:17 <overdamped> The ARRL has some good pubs too for RF circuits
22:19:31 <KipIngram> And anything by Howard Johnson on signal integrity.
22:19:39 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-24-130-130-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth
22:20:07 <overdamped> also... jim williams app notes
22:20:46 <KipIngram> Wow.  Gotta sleep - waking up in for hours.  Mañana guys...
22:20:55 <overdamped> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Williams_%28analog_designer%29
22:20:56 <KipIngram> Four
22:21:34 <overdamped> for seems apt for the channel... night
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22:40:10 <ASau> KipIngram: most programmers are not engineers.
22:49:06 <overdamped> KipIngram: software engineering?
22:49:12 <overdamped> ASau: software engineering?
22:57:04 --- quit: cfjdet (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:00:53 <ASau> They are not software engineers.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.06.17