00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.14 00:04:43 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 00:26:01 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:42:35 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-111-4.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 01:06:22 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 01:06:24 ttmrichter: i just wrote a asm sample and compiled using -mcpu=cortex-m0 then run it on qemu, it works and correctly 01:06:40 yunfan, nice! 01:07:22 yunfan, you're running a arm asm under kvm on a Linux or windows box ? 01:10:01 tp: on qemu-system-arm -M lm3s811evb on Linux 01:10:20 very cool 01:10:22 from the qemu monitor, i checked my program runs correctly 01:11:03 you can test the program runs, but not the perepherals etc ? 01:11:19 qemu can do some peripherals too, but not many. 01:11:38 wow, someone is putting some work in 01:11:41 yes, i dont have tested perepherals, cause i dont got the datasheet of that target perepherals 01:11:58 for cortex-m3 qemu even have a oled 01:12:09 amazing 01:12:22 but lm3s811evb seems too old, the ti's page dont have any intro for it 01:12:31 but then with a Cortex M3 you can use JTAG or SWD and the reald chip 01:12:50 it's only M0's that don't have JTAG I think 01:13:12 and JTAG beats a emulator any day 01:13:17 i will went to buy some beeper and other components the day after tomorrow 01:13:25 cool 01:13:31 and write programming on real chip 01:13:37 thats how we all start 01:13:54 by far the best way, especially as the ARM chips are so cheap 01:14:08 yes, i got it, there's a important problem on programming for mcu 01:14:17 it dont have a screen :] 01:14:33 I remember when a National Semi "pace" (16 bit, 1Mhz, 16 instructions) cost $370 01:14:44 so maybe i should buy some led lights and beeper instead of screen 01:15:04 yes, small microprocessors don't want screens 01:15:30 but of course the Cortex M9 series have screen drivers as they go into tablets etc 01:16:07 however theyre no good to me, my devices don't want screens or 1Ghz cpus 01:16:53 its interesting , cortex m0's frequence is like i386 01:17:13 while it dont have those perepherals 01:17:28 yeah, 25Mhz, alhoth first 386's were just 16Hmz 01:17:35 yunfan: Yes, LEDs are traditionally how you learn embedded. 01:17:37 MHz 01:17:51 hi ttmrichter 01:18:04 ttmrichter: i prefer beeper, but i think i'd better start from led 01:18:11 hahah 01:18:12 LEDs are easier to control. 01:18:19 right 01:18:19 and quieter 01:18:19 Don't have to do PCM. :) 01:18:45 PWM can be used to control led brightness tho 01:18:57 Yeah, but you don't NEED it to get usable tests. 01:18:58 yunfan, stepper motors are also nice 01:19:18 Stepper motors are an accident waiting to happen if you don't have a proper motor control assembly. 01:19:29 you don't need your spleen, but it's nice to have one ;-) 01:19:49 At the very least I'd want an optocoupler between my CPU and a motor. :) 01:20:04 only when they are 3HP and connected to something that moves at 100mph! 01:20:18 why ? 01:20:25 I've heard of people frying their MCUs because they didn't do proper separation. 01:20:29 frightened of blowing up a 50c ARM ? 01:20:39 Well, yeah. 01:20:43 It's embarrassing. 01:20:47 hahahha 01:20:49 Releasing the magic smoke from your MCU is bad. 01:21:21 Ive juist bought 358 ARMS, I can kill them all I like :) 01:21:30 Ah, I don't have that luxury. 01:21:34 I have eval boards. 01:21:37 granted, theyre very small 01:21:53 ahh! blowing up a eval board is bad form old chap 01:21:55 Optocouplers are cheap too, though. 01:21:58 true 01:22:07 And useful for loads of things. 01:22:18 altho a average optocoupler is probably as expensive as my ARM cpu 01:22:24 ie 0.50c 01:22:29 ie $0.50 01:22:35 A bit more robust, though. 01:22:43 Harder to burn out an optocoupler than an MCU. 01:22:55 debatable 01:23:28 depends on the optocoupler 01:23:40 2 ways to blos the average optocoupler up 01:23:40 Fair cop. 01:23:48 1) blow the led 01:23:54 2) blow the transistor 01:24:05 I admit, Ive probably done both 01:24:07 If you're driving the LED from your MCU it's not likely to get blown. 01:24:14 agreed 01:24:16 Transistor? Yeah, you can blow those. 01:24:27 everything has it's limits 01:24:33 But something that'll blow your transistor in an optocoupler will blow an MCU just as handily. :) 01:24:57 but you're right of course (who's going to argue with ?) 01:25:03 Me. 01:25:07 hahah 01:25:09 I always argue with me. 01:25:19 It's a bit boring though, because then I always win. :( 01:25:26 I recently bought 1/2 a dozen Arduino Kits for my kids 01:26:12 I also bought separately, and included with each kit, a 4 channel opto isolated relay driver board 01:27:08 but for someone like yunfan, who may not buy a "kit", hes going to blow up the odd micro anyway, it's all part of the learning process 01:27:21 --- quit: proteusguy (Write error: Broken pipe) 01:27:27 ttmrichter: you must be an opmtimist. a pessimist would say you always lose. :) 01:27:35 tho I'll wager it will happen not from driving steppers, but from something much more common 01:27:46 guesses ? 01:28:26 I found an old book on simulating circuits at the bookstore today. 01:28:50 tangentstorm, I see Asau was arguing with you, earlier, I enjoyed your patient and careful replies, you're the *man* dude! 01:29:22 :) I was in a bad mood. 01:29:27 I couldnt see any of Asau as hes on ignore, I figure hes a troll, or someone who needs a life, whatever 01:29:52 wow, I'm upgrading you from "the man" to 'a saint' in that case :0 01:30:20 lol 01:30:34 at 58 years of age, I tired of trolls about 20 years ago 01:30:48 I don't have that much time left to waste with them 01:31:39 nice tech explanation of DOM btw, I always wondered what that was 01:32:31 no one is going to guess how yunfan will probably blow his first microprocessor ? 01:32:53 come on ttmrichter, I bet you'l have a good theory ? 01:33:08 I'm worried I'll blow one up just plugging it in. 01:33:20 why ? 01:33:26 static ? 01:33:40 because i don't know enough about electricity and circuitry 01:33:48 chips theseays are very hardy 01:34:10 last time i messed around with circuits I blew up an LED :) 01:34:24 in the old days they used to come wrapped in silver paper as the wires into the parts had *absolutely no static protection* 01:34:51 nowdays all the chips have protection, theyre far hardier than most would believe 01:34:59 I have an FPGA and a book on designing digital circuits but I haven't put either to good use yet. 01:35:07 tangentstorm, too much current thru the LED ? 01:35:13 yeah, probably. 01:35:33 or too much reverse voltage (and current) will do it 01:35:43 but leds are dirt cheap 01:35:48 Like putting it in backwards? 01:36:11 I priced 3000 transistors the other day, $7, yes $7 dollars 01:36:16 Yeah i didn't cry over the LED but like i don't want to spend the $$ for a GA144 because I'm worried the same thing will happen until I get my knowledge sorted out. 01:36:23 afk 01:36:30 GA144 is what $20 ? 01:36:53 I think thats what GreenArrays target was ? 01:37:21 Personally, Id never need one, as a single cpu ARM or PIC is all I need 01:39:30 tangentstorm, in any event, if you postponed learning to ride a bike because of fear of falling off, youd never learn to ride, so just tripple check what you are doing, and ask someone who knows if you're still unsure, and you'll be ok 01:42:55 tp: GA144s can do some things that an ARM or PIC can't. 01:43:58 tangentstorm: Did you put a resistor in series with your LED or did you just apply voltage? 01:44:08 I'm sure they can, but I don't need to do any of those things 01:44:54 ttmrichter, when I first saw the GA144, it blew my mind .... 01:45:19 I'm not into video or signal processing 01:45:42 hmm, I wonder if PRISM uses millions of GA144's ? ;-) 01:46:02 tp: no you misunderstand me, i bought many kit 01:46:22 tp: I just want to buy a GA144 because they're cool. 01:46:23 back. 01:46:27 yunfan, aha, cool 01:46:29 its just i dont like those term,manual in hardware from a software engineer's view 01:46:29 I don't particularly care if they're practical. 01:46:38 ttmrichter, yeah, I can relate 01:46:43 ttmrichter: i probably didn't use a resistor or if so probably fried it too.. it was a long time ago. 01:46:56 Since I don't do this shit for a living any more, I can do things on whimsy. 01:47:11 i have 2 avr kit, one 51 full feature board, one audruino 01:47:28 and 2 raspberry pi 01:47:35 And no *-Discovery boards? 01:47:36 1 stm32f0 discovery 01:47:44 * ttmrichter doesn't count the Raspberry Pi as an embedded system. 01:47:46 2 mips based device 01:48:00 I want to find some decent, cheap MIPS eval boards. 01:48:04 Hard to find. 01:48:04 one is the first opensource hardware -> ben nanonote 01:48:13 my interest in hardware is recreational. i've been focused on a software project for a long while and just haven't taken the time to do the hardware stuff. 01:48:33 another is ainol's 7" table pc which has a jz4770 1Ghz mips based 01:48:33 I lustered after a gold plated 20Mhz bipolar power transistor once many years ago, a RF device, it cost heaps, looks like a small cylinder, a bolt coming out the base, and 4 gold plated windmill 'arms'. It still sits in a little plactic box, 30 years later 01:48:56 also i have a ac100 from toshiba which have tegra3 inside 01:49:15 Ah, the parade of hot mothers has started. Excuse me a moment. 01:49:27 ttmrichter: you could bought a ingeneric dev board 01:49:57 ttmrichter doesn't count the Raspberry Pi as an embedded system. .... nether does tp 01:50:02 yunfan: I'm not sure I understand. 01:50:46 ttmrichter: the company's name ingenic 01:50:48 The RPi is a nice piece of kit (although the CubieBoard is better bang:buck), but ... it's got a full-blown user OS, video output, USB support for keyboards, mice, etc. 01:50:53 yunfan, the kits are nice, but in a way, they also have a negative side 01:50:53 yunfan: Got a link? 01:50:58 who provide chip for many chinese table pc and mp4 01:51:00 That's a PC, not an embedded kit. 01:51:06 and there products is based on mips 01:51:15 also they provide opensource toolchain and qemu 01:51:28 ttmrichter: ingenic.cn 01:51:45 Ah, well, you see, the reason I don't know about them is I don't read Chinese well. :) 01:52:00 they have english version page 01:52:08 ttmrichter, technically they are 'embedded', but a computer running from a solid state memory device just seems to 'big' to be embedded to me 01:52:11 Yeah, but to hear about them I probably have to read Chinese pages. 01:52:27 actually their products has been bought by foreighner customer 01:52:29 tp: If they're embedded then so are Mini-ITX PCs. 01:52:43 And ... I can't appear to connect to that address. 01:52:43 not to me 01:52:47 ttmrichter: http://en.ingenic.cn/ 01:52:49 Do you have the spelling right? 01:53:04 well, if a mini-itx has a SSD then yes, I guess they are 'embedded' 01:53:08 Ah. The second address worked. 01:53:48 tp: The RPi doesn't have to run off of SSD. 01:53:55 It can have a USB hard drive. 01:54:09 It's really just a very small, very cheap personal computer (not PCâ¢, just PC). 01:54:10 the world's changing ttmrichter, what once was, is no more, and few now live who remember real embedded devices 01:54:27 Oh, that's nonsense! Real embedded systems are still EVERYWHERE. 01:54:36 My washing machine has an STM7 on it. (I checked!) 01:54:49 An average car has dozens of embedded systems baked in. 01:54:49 Hrm. 01:54:59 tp: what's your standard for embed ? since even cortex m0 could support sd card 01:55:01 How do you recognize chips like that? 01:55:15 tangentstorm: You read the stuff on the top. :) 01:55:19 your washing machine?? ttmrichter 01:55:26 I've taken apart various phones, vcr's, microwaves (and a washing machine!) 01:55:30 * tp sulks because his Lord OF the Rings quote was under appreciated 01:55:32 I knew the rough size and form factor to look for, so when it was opened for maintenance I took a look. 01:55:53 LoTR quote? 01:55:54 I have a bunch of little chips but when I try to look them up I never find them. I guess I'm looking in the wrong places 01:55:56 Oh, the changing thing. 01:56:05 yunfan, I'm too old to have a valid opinion, the world is changing too fast for me :) 01:56:16 This one was pretty obvious, tangentstorm. It had the STM logo. 01:56:23 --- quit: Nisstyre (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:57:10 ah... but in general... like i happen to have a panasonic wireless phone here (like the kind that sits in a base that plugs into a phone line) 01:57:13 Oh, cool! Ingenic has MIPS32 AND MIPS64. 01:57:14 whats more, many of those devices may be running embeddd Linux 01:57:21 tp: you are lucky enought that biology develops faster recently, maybe you have already went through the singularity 01:57:39 The Singularity is religion. 01:57:43 ahh 01:57:46 ttmrichter: of course they have bought license from mips 01:57:52 It's the geek version of the Second Coming of Christ. 01:57:57 I got that out of the way when I was in my teens :) 01:57:59 there's a square chip in the center which looks like the biggest thing.. i assume it's a micro processor of some kind. 01:58:01 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 01:58:10 but i could understand the concepts 01:58:25 well actually it says DSP in big letters so maybe it's a digital signal processor :) 01:58:44 yunfan: I can't find any eval boards on their site. 01:58:47 yunfan, I try to never discuss religion, it's too easy to spend years arguing about it 01:58:52 you see if the biologhy tech could make your life longer like 10 years, in the follow 10 years, they might developer more tech to long your life 20 years 01:59:24 yunfan, a old man doesnt want to live longer, only young people do .... 01:59:30 ttmrichter: yes, this is another reason i hate hardware domain 01:59:32 old men have seen too much already 01:59:40 they just like a guys with many and many secrets 01:59:56 I don't have any secrets 02:00:01 althought you could found those board from some guys in shenzheng or taobao :] 02:00:06 tp: Those who learn from history are doomed to grit their teeth in frustration as it repeats itself around them. 02:00:14 but I have seen enough, Im ready to die happy 02:00:24 ttmrichter, lol 02:00:25 tp: why not live longer? 02:00:39 tp: I'm not quite there yet, but yeah, I don't want immortality. I'm already bored with seeing the same shit happen over and over and over again. 02:00:42 Personally I have found that time wounds all heals ... 02:00:46 Why would I want an eternity of this? 02:00:54 exactly 02:01:09 i think if i have infinite time, i could learnt all the knowledges i want 02:01:13 Like all the "exciting new tech" thats around us. Like web apps. 02:01:15 that's really cool for me 02:01:25 I remember Videotek (or however that was spelled)... 02:01:44 i'm with yunfan. lock me in a room with a computer for a century and i might actually ship my project :) 02:02:01 as Bob Hope said when asked 'what age does a 99 year old man think is a good time to die" ? , Bob answered 100 ... 02:02:03 tangentstorm: More likely you'll just accumulate an even larger collection of porn. 02:02:18 tangentstorm, hahahah 02:03:35 tangentstorm: yes actually they even dont need to lock me, i just live like that nowadays :] 02:03:45 althought i am a guys with many bears 02:04:28 ah, its not bears, but beard!! 02:04:34 i dont feed bears :] 02:04:50 for all you nice young people here, I find that age is like lint ..... it sticks to you and builds up, the failed romances, deaths of children, major fuckups, eventually all that stuff does weigh one down 02:05:29 it's the price of living, and I have loved the journey thus far, plan to last a while longer yet 02:05:48 ttmrichter: i dont found a jz4780 board , but found a jz4770 board , which is too expensive to me, 2k RMB in taobao http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.10.x1MIK5&id=14702811654 02:05:49 especially as there are so many cool MICROS to play with! 02:06:12 Yeah, 2K is too much. 02:06:18 I'm looking at the 1-200 range. 02:06:25 yunfan, a single 'breadboard' some components and a few chips are all you need 02:06:26 My FPGA board at 600 was an aberration. 02:06:26 my table pc with jz4770 is just 600RMB 02:07:07 ttmrichter: maybe i just need a fpge :] 02:07:24 the only bix expense items in ones electronic lab, should be test equipment and perhaps machinery 02:07:51 ttmrichter: tp said rpi is not embed for you, so why you have interesting of ingenic's products? 02:08:02 they have been even used to made a laptop 02:08:28 I don't know what or who ingenic is yunfan ? 02:08:48 tp: i hope i could made a level driven computer just like the author of "the pattern on stone" 02:09:21 tp: ingenic is a compnay who provide mips based chip for mp4 or table pc or other stuff in that market 02:09:41 aha 02:09:43 and also the chip is really cheap 02:09:58 perfect, as long as you have the open source tools for it 02:10:05 better than loongson from chinese academe institude 02:10:15 I avoid any chips that don't have all the tools I need 02:10:31 tp: yes they provided opensource toolchain kernel and qemu 02:10:38 because without for instance, a decent debugger, you can get really stuck 02:10:54 JTAG is hard to beat in that regard 02:11:17 yes, mips has been well supported by Gcc 02:11:26 why they sell jtag expensive? 02:11:33 ? 02:11:34 is it? 02:11:49 I have a J-Link board that's priced 50RMB individually, yunfan. 02:11:50 you can make jtag, or buy it quite cheaply 02:12:09 JTAG is definitely not expensive. 02:12:18 the book "see mips run " says compiler just use nop commands to fill the delay slot 02:12:21 sure jtag *can* be massively expensive, but thats the top end industrial stuff 02:12:34 hahah, why not ? 02:12:37 got it 02:13:03 they could fill some useful commands , isnt it 02:13:15 I don't have anything against NOP's, I'm not prejudiced ;-) 02:13:36 a NOP is a standard microprocessor instruction, why not use it ? 02:13:46 I have, billions of times ;-) 02:13:51 lol 02:13:58 right 02:14:21 i just dislike these non-optimized case 02:14:25 I have some devices in industry that have been installed 10+ years 02:15:05 they run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and they use NOP's in their delay routines, so Ive probably used NOP's trillions of times by now ... 02:15:32 well , mips's delay slot is not like your delay routines 02:16:06 yunfan, but isnt a NOP a perfectly optimized, accurate delay ? 02:16:18 mips would fetch N ops per time, and some ops like load or store wont got result at once 02:16:58 my delay routines don't care, the devices don't care, and the owners of the devices only care that they keep working, saving them tens of thousands of dollars every year 02:17:06 if that ops , for eg load r0, addr, is not at the index of N, then, there're delay slots 02:17:22 yunfan: It gets funnier. 02:17:37 the results could be throw in r0 in the next cycle 02:17:39 If you do a branch and don't put something in the delay slot you could wind up missing your actual branch. 02:17:54 yunfan, I'm far more concerned with the reliability and cost of the devices , than perfect code (which I'll never be capable of) 02:18:18 tp: today's software developer might be with you :] 02:18:30 but i am a backend developer 02:18:49 NOPs don't have to involve delay. In my FPGA processor they're required because I pack three opcodes into a 16-bit cell and sometimes you don't need all three. But the logic "sees them coming" and the state machine skips them, so they take no time. 02:18:55 They take space but not time. 02:19:12 That's a saner design. 02:19:23 But a lot of RISC processors actually waste time. 02:19:28 yunfan, hahah, maybe, but I'm a electronics tech, my code is crap, I know it, but as long as it works and is reliable, thats whats important to me 02:19:57 You can actually do work by slotting things in the delay slots. But a lot of compilers ignore this. 02:20:01 tp: yes, even apache's default index page shows "It works" 02:20:16 KipIngram, your optimizer compiles the NOP's out ? 02:20:20 ttmrichter: and the cache is another problem 02:20:30 yunfan: "It works" is a very different term in embedded software than it is in web pages. :) 02:20:31 My processor also uses delay slots - once you really think deeply about running as fast as possible you find them pretty unavoidable. 02:20:54 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-111-4.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 02:21:09 which is why a 20Mhz clock is all I'll probably ever need, or my code will be all delays 02:21:12 No - the *hardware* doesn't process the last opcode, or the last two opcodes, if they are NOPs. 02:21:20 aha 02:21:56 KipIngram: i want to know are there any addressable sram inside your design which could be used as high performance stack 02:22:32 I realise I'm on a mainly Hacker populated channel, and I really respect Hackers, and do apologise in advance for my cavalier attitude to code, it's not meant to offend anyone 02:22:35 Yes, the design uses internal block RAM, but the stacks are implemented in hardware as register banks. That's much faster than using the block RAMs. 02:23:05 tp: i am just a newbie :] 02:23:35 yunfan, I'm a coding reject, the kind John West reject ;-) 02:23:47 KipIngram: just like ttmrichter's design 02:24:08 i've no idea of John west reject 02:24:17 Maybe - I'm not sure what he's doing. 02:24:33 There's a paper out there from Oracle on asynchronous stack desing - I use that approach. 02:24:43 yunfan, sorry it's a silly tv commercial advert 02:25:16 John West can fish, and claim they use only the best fish, and reject the rest 02:25:27 ok 02:25:44 it's fish in cans, we can buy in the shop 02:26:20 hmm 02:26:54 always found interesting group in westen country 02:27:01 like low level tech group 02:27:01 my coding, is of a quality that John West would reject, id they canned code ... 02:27:20 not so in China ? 02:27:47 tp: maybe there're , but i didnt saw some 02:27:55 well i could be one 02:28:12 yunfan: KipIngram advised me on what I'm thinking of here. ;) 02:28:20 i just feel that future might be hard and dark, so i need to got some low level tech 02:28:31 The task model is mine, but some of the specifics are modified by KipIngram's advice. 02:28:38 ttmrichter: yes i have mentioned your design 02:29:06 yunfan, the more you understand, the more valuable you are, the more you're capable off 02:29:25 tp: The more you know the more valuable you are until you price yourself out of the market. 02:30:04 ttmrichter, then offer some discounts ;-) 02:30:29 The problem is that if they find out you know more than you seemed they view you as a flight risk. So they axe you. 02:30:53 lifes little challenges .... 02:30:57 ttmrichter: i hope they have electic power and computer to let me show my power and value 02:31:37 yunfan, who ? 02:32:34 yunfan, don't wait to show anyone anything, start practicing electronics, make things, and when you're good, they will notice you 02:32:37 tp: the people in future 02:32:45 aha 02:33:00 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 02:33:18 i dont think china could keep the developing speed infinitely 02:33:33 we create our future, I believe 02:33:52 id worry about yunfan, not china :) 02:33:55 maybe i could see its collapse in 10 or 20 years 02:34:14 Oh, it won't COLLAPSE in that time, yunfan. 02:34:18 if that so, i might have some hardtime 02:34:22 Collapse takes a loooooooong time. 02:34:52 yunfan, with a bit of luck a moon sized asteroid will smack into the earth at 100,000 km per hour and ruin everyones plans for doom and gloom ? 02:34:53 ttmrichter: we chinese dont have welfare and better govment 02:35:02 yunfan: Not yet you don't. 02:35:26 ttmrichter: maybe we will have , but the current tax rate is too higher to me 02:35:37 also to other guys 02:35:44 yunfan: I was paying over 50% of my income in taxes in Canada. 02:35:49 Come back when your taxes exceed that. ;) 02:36:10 ttmrichter: well i know that, but you got pay back but we dont 02:36:38 and chinese tax rate is higher than that if you calculated the hidden tax 02:37:03 many of the tax are paid in price without indicated 02:37:15 We had many hidden taxes in Canada too. 02:37:30 our system is full of indirect tax 02:37:49 like 17% VAT 02:37:56 I had tire taxes, road taxes, education taxes (coming from my rent, hidden), and many of these taxes stacked. 02:38:24 The GST in Canada was only 7% at the time, but there was an additional provincial sales tax at 8%. 02:38:31 Total tax on each purchase, 15%. 02:38:46 And that didn't include the hidden taxes applied to each one as well. 02:39:07 when product comes out from factory, it has 17% VAT, then it was sold from first guys to another, it has another 17% VAT, that's our tax system 02:39:33 That's how the GST worked in Canada, but you could claim the taxes against your income tax if you're a business. 02:39:46 i know european country has much higher tax rate 02:39:54 Well, in theory, though, it's only the *increase* in value at each step that gets taxed, right? 02:40:07 but they got those tax used back on their own 02:40:31 ttmrichter: we even has some fee that not tax but we are forced to give that 02:40:46 KipIngram: In theory. In practice it's a bitch of a paperwork load, often more expensive than the tax refund. 02:40:47 like house fund 02:40:56 yunfan: China is *NOT* unique there. 02:41:05 There's fees, taxes, levies, etc. everywhere. 02:41:06 the house fund need i pay 10% and my compnay pay 10% 02:41:11 Yes, I imagine it's very subject to exploitation by the tax man. 02:41:28 but i could only use that in beijing when i want to bought house 02:41:37 if i leave beijing, i could only got my 10% 02:42:08 what a nice saving plans 02:42:24 You need to live in another country for a year, yunfan. 02:42:39 What you think is excessive and only Chinese is EVERYWHERE. 02:42:53 ttmrichter: i hope , at lease you have voting , that's the main differences 02:43:01 And as I said, I paid over 50% in taxes in Canada. And that's the VISIBLE taxes. 02:43:25 ttmrichter: i not said your country is heaven 02:43:31 yunfan: The vote is a sham. A bunch of rich white guys give you a list of people you can vote for. 02:43:36 i just said my country is in hell 02:44:03 ttmrichter: well in our china, you wount bored with that 02:44:32 Sure. It's a bunch of rich Chinese guys instead. And they do it openly instead of pretending they're not controlling things. :D 02:45:22 anyway, the chinese economy system depends on cheap worker and large exports 02:45:32 these two are changed these years 02:45:54 Canada relied on those in the '50s and '60s. Things changed. The country changed with it. 02:45:58 chinese worker are not cheap now compare to vietnam and malasia 02:46:06 Canada relied on natural resources in the '70s and '80s. That changed. 02:46:14 Change is the norm in life. 02:46:42 this would ruin our country if so many worker lose their jobs and dont have their unemployment benifits 02:47:33 ttmrichter: new technology are developed, for eg, 3d printer, would be cheaper than even viet nam worker 02:47:46 factory would return to westen country 02:47:48 Still takes an educated workforce to make things. 02:48:03 at that time i dont know what we could provide to westen 02:48:28 A huge number of well-educated engineers and such which still work for less than their American counterparts. 02:48:31 the lucky part is china are top in 3d printer today 02:48:44 And don't forget that you have a domestic economy that's going to grow too. 02:49:12