00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.12 00:00:28 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 00:18:57 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 00:27:45 --- join: HaikuUser (vision@88.206.61.91) joined #forth 00:30:20 --- quit: tp (Remote host closed the connection) 00:37:13 --- part: HaikuUser left #forth 00:38:53 --- join: tp (~tp@ppp59-167-172-238.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 01:00:58 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 01:23:31 --- join: Indecipherable (~Indeciphe@41.13.4.74) joined #forth 01:55:49 --- quit: segher (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 01:57:23 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 02:00:17 --- quit: segher (Client Quit) 02:11:16 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 02:20:42 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 02:32:15 --- quit: segher (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 02:33:29 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 02:35:05 --- quit: segher (Client Quit) 02:35:47 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 03:19:27 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Quit: Leaving) 03:56:37 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:14:24 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 04:25:34 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-99-198.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 04:37:40 --- join: robotustra (robotustra@cable-11.246.173-140.electronicbox.net) joined #forth 04:50:20 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 05:28:18 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:28:41 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 05:31:31 --- quit: Indecipherable (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 05:57:49 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@host52-186-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 06:02:45 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 06:37:47 --- join: dto-00 (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 06:38:18 --- quit: dto (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 06:45:57 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 07:00:08 --- quit: dto-00 (Remote host closed the connection) 07:04:30 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 07:08:14 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 07:20:03 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 08:00:04 --- quit: itsy (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 08:15:24 --- join: itsy (~digital_w@46.208.44.168) joined #forth 08:32:17 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 08:55:03 --- join: sirdancealo3 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) joined #forth 08:56:57 --- quit: sirdancealot (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:21:34 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-76-102-52-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:55:48 --- join: ncv (~quassel@79.114.125.80) joined #forth 09:55:48 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 09:55:48 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:07:20 --- quit: itsy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 10:08:54 --- join: itsy (~digital_w@46.208.44.168) joined #forth 10:10:48 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 10:58:34 --- nick: malyn_ -> malyn 11:12:41 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:16:11 Pf! 11:16:48 Anyone who ever tried writing big programs in Forth knows that it doesn't scale even as well as rather archaic Emacs Lisp. 11:18:09 I have to agree with that - Forths I've tried to use don't see "big app happy." But I do persist in my opinion that Forth is great for small embedded control apps. 11:18:38 And I'm not talking only about the end result - I'm talking about the entire process of "bringing up" your hardware, getting the bits of your app together, etc. 11:18:46 Forth's highly interactive nature is awesome for that. 11:20:22 I'm rather doubtful about both your last points. 11:20:58 Ok. I'll just say it's worked for me. 11:21:29 What you take as "entire process" is that you have stripped it to the lowest level stuff. 11:22:02 Sure, at some level of simplicity you can manage writing programs even in machine code directly. 11:22:12 But generally in an embedded application the embedded engineer's job ends with the creation of an interface offered up by the embedded device. 11:22:15 Octal or hexadecimal, whatever you prefer. 11:22:25 All of the external, higher level app is written by someone else. 11:23:39 What you may consider "designing Forth" is what compiler people consider designing some intermediate representation. 11:24:07 It is true that you can do translation to IR manually. 11:24:25 Just like writing in machine code directly. 11:25:57 What is important is that around three or four decades ago postfix IR was demonstrated to be ineffective. 11:26:53 And two decades ago even stack-based VMs were demonstrated less effective than register-based ones. 11:27:11 That's why Lua 5 is register-based inside. 11:27:18 Look, you're talking to a guy that's never used anything other than an RPN calculator since college. 11:27:39 Sure - maybe it's possible to be the old dog that can't learn new tricks and needs the crutches. 11:27:59 But when you've breathed postfix as your *tier one* representation your whole life, Forth is a natural fit. 11:28:15 I came to Forth in the first place *because* I was an HP calculator user and loved RPN. 11:28:38 --- join: ASau` (~user@p5797FAB8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 11:31:01 Install Octave and try it out. 11:31:15 Or SciLab as some EEs prefer. 11:31:35 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 11:32:14 I do have octave installed. 11:32:19 I use it from time to time. 11:32:21 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 11:32:54 I do admit that calculators play a far less important role in our engineering / science culture than they did when I was cutting my teeth (yes - I am a dinosaur...) 11:33:03 But - they had their day, and HP ruled. 11:33:22 todllc.com/blog/9-reasons-to-use-an-rpn-calculator/ 11:33:45 I can find perhaps as many reasons to use slide rule instead. 11:33:58 I like reason #9. ;-) 11:35:40 Well... Most of those reasons are plain wrong. 11:35:43 By the way, I keep octave open in one of my screen session screens all the time. I don't have frequent reason to use it, but it's always there just in case. 11:36:03 Especially no. 9. 11:36:21 Looks like his website accepts comments - have at it. 11:36:47 It is true that when RPN calculators were in heyday there were heavy users, 11:37:10 and among those you could find really intelligent ones. 11:38:33 Today RPN is mostly left for few old farts, thus it is hard to tell sometimes if it is intelligence or just an age dementia. 11:38:49 I used a slide rule today! 11:43:12 I don't even know where mine is now, 11:43:20 and you know what? 11:43:23 I don't even care. 11:43:38 Everything I can do with it, I can do faster with Emacs. 11:43:47 :-) 11:43:48 And I have more powerful tools for more complex tasks. 11:43:52 I love emacs... 11:44:15 Though I've found myself forced for "availability reasons" to become more comfortable with vim... 11:44:45 Do you know what I use most often of all for math calculations, though? Not a calculator, or Forth, or a slide rule, or emacs, or vim, or octave... 11:44:58 I open up my spreadsheet app and get my answers. 11:45:20 I'm generally not doing anything that needs to be repeated - it's a one-off calculation that I just need to get done, and that's the fastest way. 11:45:59 I have gone into that age and stratum when it is better to install anything I prefer than to lose performance. 11:52:11 --- join: Guest41013 (~tmb@95-89-75-85-dynip.superkabel.de) joined #forth 11:52:37 Hi. Does anybody here hae experience with amforth? 11:52:58 Classic IRC mistake. 11:53:16 Ask the real question, perhaps it has nothing to do with amforth, 11:53:50 even if it is amforth-specific, perhaps someone not currently at keyboard will read logs and will answer later. 11:54:10 When I install amForth on an Arduino Nano, it hangs after defining my first command. Anybody know what the reason is? 11:55:00 (The reason for asking about amForth firt i that thi channel might not hae anybody intereted in thi topic. and, ye, two of my keys aren't working on xchat) 11:56:40 --- quit: Guest41013 (Quit: Ex-Chat) 12:27:05 --- join: Hermit (~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala) joined #forth 12:28:13 you use an rpn calculator, KipIngram ? 12:29:03 does it have that forth/pascal hybrid language on it? 12:29:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPL_%28programming_language%29 12:31:03 tangentstorm: Yes - I do. 12:31:09 When I use a calculator. 12:31:23 I really like that language. 12:31:44 I have an HP-35s and an HP-32s II. 12:31:45 what language? 12:31:53 In college I used an HP-41CV. 12:31:57 RPL 12:32:04 Programmed the phooey out of it. 12:32:08 see the link i posted above, Hermit 12:32:59 I'm in dallas / fort worth so everything around here was always Texas Instruments or Tandy 12:33:08 (in school i mean) 12:37:58 wow... this looks pretty cool, but how can they justify $129 for it? http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/home-office/-/products/Accessories/Calculators/F2229AA?HP-50g-Graphing-Calculator 12:38:57 I can get two cheap no-contract android phones for that price. 12:42:32 --- join: Tod-Work (~thansmann@50-202-143-210-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 12:43:35 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 12:47:16 --- join: ASau (~user@p5797FAB8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 12:48:35 its design is also quite funky 12:48:35 it has some an ARM CPU that runs an emulator for the custom CPU in the HP-48g 12:51:35 * ASau is not surprised somehow. 12:51:43 Yeah, HP hasn't done anything really remarkable in the calculator arena in a long time. I guess there's no real market for it... 12:52:24 Well... 12:52:55 The market is mainly people who are going to pay $100 for the feeling of nostalgia. 12:56:41 Yeah, except the graphing calculators aren't nostalgic. Maybe to someone 10 years younger than me, but not to me. 13:09:36 I'm not going to be surprised if calculators don't make any profit for HP. 13:09:48 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 13:10:13 To me their fate is obvious, it is the same as that of typewriters. 13:10:35 what's a typewriter? 13:11:45 it's like a keyboard with a printer built in 13:11:54 character-buffered 13:12:33 Don't forget non-replacable font and lack of editing abilities. :D 13:13:12 what's editing? :D 13:13:36 a keyboard with a printer built in. genius! :) 13:14:12 well the IBM ball ones could replace the font 13:14:27 APL :) 13:14:31 also I did actually have a typewriter with editing capabilities ... I got it for 50¢ at a garage sale 13:14:34 had a 16-character display ! 13:14:53 I wrote some stuff on it, then realised I could decode what had been written before on the thermal ink tape 13:14:56 i had a word processor. 13:15:08 so I painstakingly decoded several paragraphs ... before I realised I was decoding what I had already written 13:15:11 * kulp not a very clever man 13:15:16 hahaha 13:15:55 I was a teenager then though, so I get a pass, right ? 13:16:00 teenagers are generally not clever 13:16:31 we forgive you 13:16:55 \o/ thanks 13:37:34 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 14:00:26 --- quit: dessos (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 14:10:03 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 14:12:41 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@host19-179-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 14:18:33 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 14:30:56 --- quit: Tod-Work (Quit: Leaving) 14:46:58 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 14:48:14 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@gertm.eu) joined #forth 14:53:56 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:07:15 --- quit: cataska (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:10:48 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 15:20:08 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 15:46:58 --- quit: segher (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 15:48:54 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 16:09:05 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 16:23:31 --- join: dessos (~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:37:33 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 16:39:42 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 16:39:52 --- nick: Nisstyre-laptop -> Nisstyre 16:45:12 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:46:13 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 17:27:55 howdy folks 17:28:46 hey RodgerTheGreat 17:28:58 'sup, tangentstorm? 17:29:26 messing with xquery 17:35:06 xquery :S good luck 17:36:53 actually right now just xpath, but i think i need xquery... 17:39:11 this might actually be a good use case for my little 'empty.pas' forthlike thing. 17:39:44 make like a little command interpreter to help me filter this xml file... 17:43:08 parsing XML can be dangerous business 17:52:25 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 17:53:19 I kind of think the DOM could be an interesting environment for a forth-like language, because you can treat elements like nestable stacks. 17:53:37 well except it's all strings :/ 17:54:29 but you could have a tree of numbers 17:55:00 a tree of numbers, eh? Sounds potentially irrational 17:55:05 that's kind of how i picture wejal (language i'm working on)... you have certain words that deal with the structure of the tree... 17:55:42 and the rest of the words operate on the contents of the current node. 17:55:43 so like 17:55:53 1 2 3 [ 4 5 6 17:56:07 in my mind, the [ starts a completely new context 17:56:30 so it looks like the stack has 3 items: 4 5 6 (6 on top) 17:56:47 and if you said +, it would add the 5 and 6 leaving 4 11 17:57:37 err, isn't the whole idea of semi-structured data as anti-forth as it could possibly get? 17:57:39 then when you say ] it closes that out and now [ ... ] is just one item on the stack. 17:58:20 i don't know. is it? 17:58:33 if words like 'forth' can swap out the dictionary, why can't you swap out the stacks? 17:58:44 tangentstorm: what if you had more than one item on the stack when you closed with ] ? 17:58:54 really it's just a stack pointer and a base pointer that's you're swapping around. 17:59:11 does this give you anything besides a failure if you use too many items ? 17:59:30 oh 17:59:38 I think I see what you meant now 17:59:53 stacks of stacks 17:59:54 .. yeah i'm not seeing the problem you're seeing i think. 17:59:57 yes 18:00:50 stacks of stacks of stacks of stacks of stacks ! 18:01:01 nested stacks are equivalent to a tree except you can only deal with the last couple child nodes you appendend in the current node. 18:01:21 (unless you allow words like PICK) 18:02:03 once you close out a stack you could treat it like an array or a quotation. 18:02:27 also [ and ] already have a well-established and very important meaning already. I think you should use {} 18:02:32 but there would be other words besides [ that create new nodes 18:03:17 ah yeah... retro uses them for quotes... they toggle the compiler state in normal forth, right? 18:03:23 yes 18:03:24 retro uses [[ and ]] 18:03:56 this wouldn't really be a forth, just a forth-like 18:04:06 I use {} for anonymous inline words in my forth dialect (basically quotations except you can't directly mutate them) 18:04:08 actually a lot more like that RPL 18:04:23 RPL used << >> didn't it? 18:04:54 I see IF and WHILE and REPEAT, etc... (all the pascal control flow words ) as opening and closing nodes. 18:05:10 I didn't really grok what the chevrons were for there. 18:05:47 I thought the chevrons enclosed code literals 18:06:01 it has been a while since I played with an RPL device 18:07:17 --- part: itsy left #forth 18:08:24 hrmm.. http://www.rpl2.net/documentation.php 18:08:36 << >> user-defined function, or equation (expressed in RPN); 18:09:01 so... yeah i guess that does sound like a quotation. 18:11:32 use too many << and >> and your program will start to look like C++ 18:12:19 :) 18:12:39 wejal is sort of a 'pidgin' language 18:12:57 in a pidgin, there's usually one language that supplies the bulk of the vocabulary 18:13:24 it's probably going to be pretty pascal/python-like 18:14:26 [ ] will probably introduce an array/list... 18:15:04 i might use { } for algebraic expressions with precedence... those are comments in pascal... 18:15:08 not really sure yet. 18:15:42 but... even though it looks like pascal with rpn expressions, it will be very forthy inside. 18:15:59 like each token will be executed immediately. 18:16:10 or at least can potentially do that 18:18:30 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:54:22 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 18:58:58 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@71-85-195-85.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) joined #forth 19:05:26 ttmrichter: hi yes i have a f0 discovery 19:21:45 anyone here know any mechanical engineers? 19:22:26 I do but hes useless .... 19:22:47 can he design non circular planetary gears? 19:23:05 wow 19:23:07 hypertochoid planetary gears to be exact 19:23:07 My wife is a mechanical engineer. Master's degree. 19:23:12 !!!!!!! 19:23:18 im stealing her off you :))) 19:23:25 my brother is a mechanical engineer...ing student 19:23:41 kip https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=CLVPA6UZDo0&NR=1 19:23:53 not his fault, he graduated with a high distinction from uni, and got a job with Slumberger (sp) who said, "here is your desk, you're going to be a programmer" .... 40 years ago 19:24:01 can she create something along THESE lines? tho this particalar example wnt work for me 19:24:10 About to watch TV with the family right now - I will look at it later. 19:24:14 tp lol 19:24:17 I will ask her. She might be pricey, though... 19:24:19 kk 19:24:40 mark4: you want to remake Ptolemy's machine? 19:24:40 well if im not going to jail friday i might be able to pay her to design it :) 19:24:47 no dunno what that is 19:24:49 hes a *awesome programmer*, but a grap mech enginner as he never practiced mech eng 19:25:03 i dont want her to MAKE it, just come up with a design i can feed to a CNC milling machine 19:25:17 tp: 40 years ago? 19:25:31 there were programmers 40 years ago 19:25:38 I know a mechanical engineer who writes test code for Microsoft 19:25:41 it seems the early programmer (or computer manipulator) are all women 19:25:45 * tp is jealous of KipIngram now! 19:26:05 I would be, but his wife is older than my mother 19:26:14 (assuming his wife is as old as he is) 19:26:15 How old is your mother? 19:26:17 mark4: ptolemy has made a planetary system 19:26:19 She is not. 19:26:22 47 19:26:34 My wife just turned 40. 19:26:37 oh 19:26:39 A few days ago. 19:26:40 good job :) 19:26:45 I robbed the cradle... 19:26:48 happy birthday :) 19:27:04 We were 32 / 22 when I snagged her. 19:27:23 that's outside the creepy range formula ! 19:27:25 BZZZZT 19:27:32 :-) 19:27:38 Ok - TV time. Later on... 19:27:43 later :) 19:28:20 yunfan, maybe 30 years ... it was his first job out of uni, and hes 60 now 19:29:17 that's outside the creepy range formula ! 19:29:17 BZZZZT hahahahah 19:35:41 I see someone asked about amforth earlier .... I looked at it, but found it's too Linux hostile to easily deploy 19:36:22 which is unfortunate, as the doc seems first class 19:41:16 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 19:41:18 yunfan: once upon a time, computers *were* women :) 19:41:33 its really amazing , just 30 or 40 years after, programmer are almost man now 19:41:53 wrt avrforth: i got alienated as well when I saw that it didn't work with the GNU assembler and would have required harvesting include files from Atmel's closed-source package 19:42:05 i went with avrforth then 19:42:30 * yunfan maybe its just because caucasian men dont good at calculating 19:42:33 it was a job like being a secretary or being in the typing pool... from what i understand it was a "girl's job" at the time 19:43:03 s/wrt avr/wrt am/ 19:43:18 yunfan: well also because they needed computers and the men were off to war 19:43:32 richard feynman talks about how they had girls sitting at desks passing cards around doing calculations at los alamos. 19:43:59 they eventually got punch card machines though. 19:45:08 i think you guys might have programmed with those card machine 19:45:25 not me :) 19:45:41 what about tp and his wife? 19:45:42 my understanding is that at the time "programming" was the act of punching the cards. Lots of men would write out programs on paper and their secretaries would proofread and punch them 19:45:43 i remember modems and computers without mice though :) 19:46:32 that's the compiler's job nowadays RodgerTheGreat 19:46:43 which is why I don't have a secretary 19:47:21 http://www.amazon.com/When-Computers-Human-David-Grier/dp/0691091579 19:47:47 haven't read this yet, just saw it in the store 19:49:08 a chinese sf writer has think of a human driven computer 19:49:15 which runs os like dos 19:49:28 :D 19:50:06 in Dune, the story is that long ago humans built intelligent machines who rebelled and nearly wiped out the human race, leading to strict laws against machines which "think" 19:50:16 but i think level driven computer are more useful 19:50:34 to replace the computers, "mentats" are developed, humans which have been trained to think analytically with extreme speed 19:50:45 beepboop 19:51:19 in later books it is revealed that the first mentats were actually the product of a machine experimenting upon humans, trying to determine if they could be taught to "think properly" 19:51:53 human is just the moving think machine :] 19:54:51 very poetic 19:56:13 so I'm not alone with my view to amforth :) 19:56:50 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 19:56:56 what about tp and his wife? ? what about her, divorced in 1990, shes now independently wealthy ;-) 19:58:06 --- join: cataska (~cataska@210.64.6.233) joined #forth 19:58:36 tp: sorry for that 19:58:54 dys, I went as far as installing avrstudio on windows 2012 evaluation version on my VM, but even then, I couldnt get amforth to assemble, so I gave up, too hard 19:59:14 yunfan, hey no worries :) 20:01:01 with out a doubt, the easiest (for a Linux user) by far, is installing Riscy Pygness on a Olimex STM-P103 board 20:01:41 oh you are talking about my f0 discovery? 20:01:47 followed closely by Flashforth on Linux but using the Microchip Mplabx 20:02:18 nottwo, the Olimex boards are 'honest' boards :) 20:02:39 the Olimex boards are 'honest' boards :) 20:03:10 once i have some interesting of mcu programming 20:03:20 which is to say, just serial, usb, jtag and iopins on the board 20:03:36 no special software needed with olimex 20:03:41 in which i want to see if i could programming for my usb stick to let it support raid backup cdrom emulatoring 20:04:00 seems an impossible job at that time 20:04:06 sounds hard 20:04:14 but with cortex m0 , it could be done i think 20:04:31 I'm sure it could 20:04:57 the problem is where can i found a usb stick with the target chip inside 20:05:01 Cortex chips are fast, featurefull and can have a a MB of flash etc 20:05:18 make one ? 20:06:56 RodgerTheGreat: thanks, now I don't have to read the Dune books :( 20:07:58 i am just a self learned software engineer 20:08:10 kulp, RodgerTheGreat did you a favor, that series drones on and on and on ..... 20:08:18 didnt have expierences on hardware making :[ tp 20:08:39 yunfan, then now is a great time to start :) 20:09:10 tp: then i need to start from physics :] 20:09:25 yunfan, there are many software engineers, and many hardware engineers, but not so many software-hardware engineers :) 20:09:39 nah, just start at the breadboard 20:10:08 in china , students are split into 2 system, 1 is libteral arts 20:10:17 get a plugboard, some chips, wires, test equipment and you can do anything 20:11:12 tp: i even dont know knowledges about circuit 20:13:33 luckily before spliting, i am good at algebra :] 20:13:34 lack of knowledge is easily fixed yunfan 20:14:12 no reason why you cant to it all 20:14:13 tp: yes, i am fixed my advanced mathmeticas recently 20:14:21 it just takes practice 20:14:47 tp: because those turtorials and books all assume that you have got these knowleages 20:15:02 and they gave you command like you have already know what it means 20:15:05 lots of electronic howtos and tutorials on the web, choose something and start 20:15:25 yes, so use the Internet to ask and inquire, and so learn 20:15:34 its just like i told a guys who dont know python programming `its easy, just a lisp comprehension could do that` 20:15:50 sure 20:16:05 tp: i tried to ask at irc and stackoverflow both 20:16:17 one way to start would be to get a Pic chip and flash Forth onto it 20:16:28 but got relearning advices or just notice to smart question 20:16:40 so i think i need to fixed basic knowledges first 20:16:47 from there you can flash LED's and play with the chip 20:17:31 you'll get that playing with the chip 20:19:16 and you can ask here, from what I see, the people here (with the possible exception of ASau, who seems like a smartarse troll, or a child to me) are very friendly and confident. They wont put anyone down for being ignorant imho 20:20:20 I wont either, providing you 1) do as much research as you can, before asking, don't expect people to do your research for you 20:20:51 2) be polite, but you are already very polite, so thats not a problem :) 20:21:07 tp: so can you recommend a turtorial for my quick learning circuit? 20:22:16 perhaps obtain one of these ? http://www.freetronics.com/products/experimenters-kit-for-arduino#.Ubk73NevaAk 20:22:25 or similar ? 20:22:42 yunfan: What level of electronics knowledge do you need? 20:22:48 it's not Forth, but it is Open Source and programmed in C 20:22:53 kulp: it's an extremely minor plot point dude 20:22:53 none 20:23:09 it's designed for beginners 20:23:20 and comes with a project book 20:25:38 and you can get that kit or similar a LOT cheaper in China I EXPECT 20:25:48 sorry (caps) 20:26:49 ttmrichter: from basic 20:27:06 I'm tempted to produce a Forth Experimenters Kit, with leds etd like the Arduino series 20:28:02 I rekon someone could build a business doing just that 20:28:07 ttmrichter: you already in china now, you might know the chinese education system split student into 2 system, unfortunately i was a literal art students 20:28:30 i event didnt learn physics from 10 years ago 20:29:23 yunfan, it's not important, the sooner you start doing electronics, the sooner you will be able to do it 20:29:53 Marconi didnt bother to get a radio engineering degree before he invented the radio ;-) 20:30:33 well cant be equaled , he didnt lack of basic knowledges 20:30:44 yunfan: Basic knowledge can be found in books. 20:30:53 Go to any 新华 bookstore. 20:31:06 Go to the section on electronics or electronic engineering, or whatever. 20:31:20 Pick up whatever textbook a local university uses for electronics engineers in their first year. 20:31:23 Open and read. 20:31:23 or online, there is so much information 20:31:35 Get a punchboard and a handful of components. 20:31:41 exactly 20:31:42 Start playing. 20:31:53 This is what I'm doing now. This is EXACTLY what I'm doing now, in fact. 20:31:58 *doing* is the BEST way to start with electronics 20:32:05 but i might choose Leibniz as a encourage sample 20:32:10 I have very limited electronics knowledge from the past and what I did know I forgot much of. 20:32:23 My first job? Get a LED lighting without burning out. 20:32:24 i know he start math from 30~ years old 20:32:28 I started at age 9, now in 59, so I have been doing electronics for 50 years 20:32:36 Took a day to figure that out. 20:32:55 Next job, do the same but control its on/off status via a transistor. 20:32:58 Etc. etc. etc. 20:33:00 ttmrichter: i have pick up some, you didnt read some chinese book 20:33:11 they are just like a mixed of terms 20:33:24 generated by program 20:33:36 Between the bad book and a handful of components you can figure stuff out. 20:33:39 i really hate those guys 20:33:45 And there's online resources for circuits. 20:34:00 You can get whole recipe books for basic circuit patterns and even advanced ones. 20:34:08 It's not that hard. 20:34:08 maybe 20:34:28 yes i know its not hard especially digital circuit 20:35:08 i have already got its philosophy from years thoughts, but in engineering, its not enough 20:35:30 its just like a guy knows list hash, now he want to do real programming 20:35:32 Yeah, digital circuits in particular are trivial. 20:35:55 If you can follow logic gates, most components these days just hook up like LEGO. 20:36:09 yes i could follow those 20:36:13 *SOME* may require glue caps and resistors, but the data sheets provide the details for you. You can almost do them rote. 20:36:24 I wish you lived in Wuhan. We could learn together. :) 20:36:31 that's not hard to understand for a software developer 20:36:46 :] 20:37:42 it's true, the long term learning is in analogue, but the digital world is encroaching there 20:39:52 once we had analogue amplifiers, class A, B or C and designing them required knowledge and experience, nowadays, we also have class "D" which is digital and a lot less work 20:40:22 my STMF4 Discovery board comes with a class D amplifier 20:42:48 i am curious about do you guys have interesting of other scientic domain like physics biology 20:43:16 i recently very interesting of biology which i think maybe 20 years after i could be a genetic programmer 20:44:48 not me, I'm electronics only 20:45:08 I lead a dull, sheltered life :) 20:46:21 maybe its just i am current have extra time for those interesting :] 20:49:47 tp where are you located? 20:50:18 i need to create an ECU using my atmega32-u4 :) 20:50:37 mark4, I'm in New South Wales, Australia 20:50:59 you're making a engine control unit ? 20:51:26 --- quit: Hermit (Quit: box shutting down...) 20:51:30 dammit lol 20:51:42 im going to physically MAKE an engine 20:51:48 a rotary engine 20:51:52 well 20:51:57 unless i go to jail friday lol 20:52:09 hmm 20:52:09 if not ill be buying the CNC milling machine sometime next week to start 20:52:40 why might you be going to jail friday, or should I not ask ? 20:53:47 what kind of rotary ? Australia is home to the famous "Saritch Rotary Engine" 20:53:51 because in the state of wisconsin you do not have any constitutional rights 20:54:14 i exercised my 1st amendment rights by telling a truck driver he was being inconsiderate and should move to the RIGHT lane 20:54:17 sounds like australia. we don't even have a right to free speech 20:54:19 he flipped out and charged at me 20:54:33 with his 50 thousand pound truck 20:54:34 yunfan: I am extremely interested in physics. 20:54:47 i pointed my 45 at his grill and thats when he decided he should hit his breaks 20:54:57 mark4, ouch, obviously you survived 20:54:58 when he stopped his onslaught he was less than a foot off my tail end 20:55:08 yes. i go to jail with a clear conscience 20:55:20 did you shoot ? 20:55:21 not only would I be dead if i had not defended mysekf 20:55:24 nope 20:55:26 no shots fired 20:55:35 well a vehicle is a deadly weapon 20:55:56 i was also boxed in and could not retreat.. so not only would i be dead but 4 or 5 or MORE car loads of people would have been hamburgher 20:55:58 literally 20:56:09 and a truck would have many more footpounds at the grill than a .45 has at the muzzle 20:57:02 here, we can only flip the finger, australians have no right to bear arms 20:57:29 jury said "wow he was so knowledgeable about guns and their use and their safe operation that HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER" 20:57:44 we cannot even own a self loading rifle, thats not a 'automatic' to those that don't know 20:57:49 im going to appeal because the jury was given instruction that was contrary to the 1st amendment 20:58:03 yea thats semi automatic 20:58:06 and move state ? 20:58:08 full auto is "machine gun" 20:58:13 i dont live there 20:58:17 oh 20:58:18 i was working there 20:58:32 also the cops performed an unlawful search of my vehicle as per arizona v gant 20:58:46 well good luck on friday, hopefully you'll get a decent judge 20:58:53 so i fully intend to sue them into complete and utter bankrupcy if i can find legal representation for it 20:59:07 and they can pay for your CNC ? 20:59:26 if i go to jail i will lose 100% of every thng i own. i will lose the phone number ive had for over 10 yeras which is directly tied to my ability to get work 20:59:29 i will lose my current job 21:00:00 understand 21:00:17 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-24-130-130-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:00:18 but you'll still be alive, even jail isnt the end 21:01:25 yup 21:01:28 I've gotta go, good lick mark4, hope to see you here next week :) 21:01:39 even as i picked up the gun and aimed it i KNEW i could go to jail for this 21:01:45 ouch 21:01:49 cya, bbl 21:01:54 but i would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 21:07:13 KipIngram: found those lower level physics world is just like those in software world :] 21:07:35 the light speed might be the bus maxium speed :] 21:15:23 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 21:18:00 --- quit: robotustra (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 21:32:55 --- nick: Nisstyre-laptop -> Nisstyre 22:11:44 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-24-130-130-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:28:34 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:41:44 --- join: itsy (~digital_w@46.208.44.168) joined #forth 22:55:10 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 23:07:47 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 23:24:06 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-99-198.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 23:31:55 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.06.12