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08:35:37 <ErhardtMundt> hello
08:35:59 <ErhardtMundt> is there a document in which one could see the exact official standard of forth language?
08:36:16 <ErhardtMundt> (i.e. R5RS for scheme)
08:38:24 <KipIngram> There is.  Google "forth language standard" and it will pop them right up.  
08:38:47 <itsy> http://forth.sourceforge.net/std/dpans/
08:40:43 <ErhardtMundt> thank you
08:40:55 <KipIngram> ErhardtMundt: Just so you know, though, a lot of Forth advocates aren't terribly keen on where the standards committees took the language.
08:41:47 <ErhardtMundt> KipIngram: I just don't want my code to be too reliant to gforth (or any other implementation)
08:42:14 <KipIngram> Oh, I see.  Well, that's definitely wise.
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11:06:15 <tangentstorm> i'm a fan of http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/
11:06:21 <tangentstorm> (forth-83)
11:06:29 <tangentstorm> ^ ErhardtMundt 
11:06:40 <tangentstorm> it's a much smaller and simpler document.
11:06:41 <kulp> oh that's nice
11:06:45 * kulp bookmarks
11:08:43 <KipIngram> Heh heh.  But of course that's not "the standard" any more.
11:08:50 <KipIngram> But I agree - it's more lucid.
11:09:01 <KipIngram> There's a Forth 79 back there somewhere too, I believe.
11:10:08 <tangentstorm> yeah
11:10:37 <kulp> yes well maybe I never plan to use C11 either ;)
11:11:03 <tangentstorm> http://forthworks.com/standards/F79/F79.txt
11:11:09 <tangentstorm> or .pdf 
11:11:41 <tangentstorm> hrm. the pdf is like 50 pages... the .txt seems much much shorter
11:12:21 <tangentstorm> ah it's just an extract.
11:13:21 <tangentstorm> he's got fig-forth too: http://forthworks.com/standards/FIG/glossary.txt
11:19:23 <KipIngram> Yep.
11:20:01 <KipIngram> Wow, the FIG spec and the 94 standard are about the most philosophically different things you can imagine.
11:20:25 <KipIngram> Once's all about unveiling the innermost workings of the system, and the other's all about abstracting that stuff away as much as possible.
11:21:10 <KipIngram> If someone tells me that a Forth is a "FIG Forth" then I expect to find things working in very specific ways, and I expect my code that exploits those things to work.
11:25:16 <tangentstorm> yeah... it's quite a shift in culture
11:25:52 <tangentstorm> i think one is about the individual and the other is about corporations :)
11:27:33 <KipIngram> I think that's a way of looking at it.  I think it's also a shift from regarding Forth as a *tool*, typically used for direct control of hardware, toward regarding it as a *language* that lives within the confines of external operating systems.
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11:27:46 <KipIngram> In the early days Forth was all you had between you and the hardware.
11:28:10 <KipIngram> And I'm an embedded systems guy, so I still tend to look at it as that sort of tool.
11:29:27 <tangentstorm> interesting.
11:30:08 <KipIngram> The C language has followed a similar curve.  One of the things that was touted about original C was how easy it was to do low-level programming in it.
11:30:35 <KipIngram> You can still do a lot of that, but the emphasis that's most often discussed re: C++ is much more "abstract".
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11:55:32 <ASau> Forth-79 and -83 should be summarily forgotten.
11:55:52 <ASau> This applies to embedded usage as well.
11:57:09 <KipIngram> ;-)
11:57:51 <ASau> They have more drawbacks than just being 16-bit-only or two-complement-only.
12:00:26 <ASau> KipIngram: speaking of your question,
12:00:50 <KipIngram> My question?
12:00:50 <ASau> if you know some good document on using those labels that may speed things up significantly.
12:00:56 <KipIngram> Oh, you mean about pointers to labels?
12:01:04 <ASau> Yes.
12:01:17 <KipIngram> What are you doing?  Just deciding what you think of using them for threading?
12:01:34 <KipIngram> I've actually written an indirect threaded engine that, well, threads...
12:01:38 <KipIngram> But hang on a sec.
12:02:24 <ASau> It may be that introducing them into apForth is not such a big deal.
12:02:57 <KipIngram> Look here: tigcc.ticalc.org/doc/gnuexts.html#SEC65
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12:03:31 <KipIngram> I found that by googling gcc pointers to labels - the third result is "Extensions to the C Language Family - GCC"
12:03:57 <KipIngram> Oh wait.  gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.0.2/gcc_5.html
12:04:14 <KipIngram> Same info - that looks more "official," though.
12:04:32 <KipIngram> Section 5.3: labels as values.
12:04:43 <KipIngram> You're gonna hate it...  ;-)
12:12:05 <ASau> As it turns out you're not so much proficient in your guesses.
12:15:32 <KipIngram> You don't hate it??  :-)
12:15:58 <KipIngram> Hey, I have to go take my car to the shop; I'll be back here in 2-3 hours.  
12:16:00 <KipIngram> Later on...
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16:31:44 <RodgerTheGreat> hey dudes
16:31:50 <RodgerTheGreat> and theoretically dudettes
16:32:23 <beretta> dude!
16:33:12 <KipIngram> :-)  Dudettes - we need more of them.
16:33:34 <c00kiemon5ter> :P
16:33:48 * c00kiemon5ter thinks we need more cookies!
16:34:01 <tp> hi all
16:34:09 <c00kiemon5ter> o/
16:37:07 <RodgerTheGreat> finished tinkering with a chunk of FlashForth that could be useful to anybody working with HD44780-driven LCDs: https://gist.github.com/JohnEarnest/5761306
16:40:50 <tp> RodgerTheGreat, that's very handy!
16:41:56 <tp> I'm just a Forth beginner, so work like that with Flashforth is handy indeed, and who hasn't got half a dozen HD44780-driven LCDs in their box of bits ?
16:44:02 <RodgerTheGreat> in this case I'm talking to it via a port expander chip and I only demonstrate a small subset of the device's functionality, but hey
16:44:18 <RodgerTheGreat> all the example code I could find was poor-quality assembly or C
16:44:45 <RodgerTheGreat> with many mysterious and ultimately unnecessary delays and port writes and stuff
16:45:07 <RodgerTheGreat> so I spent about a day and a half poring over datasheets and picking the examples apart until I'd pared them down to this
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16:45:55 <tp> gee, thats a fair bit of effort
16:46:13 <RodgerTheGreat> well I'm also learning about PICs and FlashForth along the way
16:46:31 <tp> it's all good fun
16:47:11 <tp> my 50 cent arm cortex f0's arrived yesterday, all sealed against mositure
16:47:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I like pics the least of any cpu architecture I have played with and the docs are terrible, but FlashForth is really top-notch
16:47:42 <tp> theyre a tiny 5mm x 5mm x 1.5 mm chip with 32 pins underneath'
16:48:28 <tp> yeah my flashforth proto board hasnt locked up yet ;-)
16:49:25 <RodgerTheGreat> as I said the other day I had to screw around with chip config stuff to get FF working initially but once I configured the oscillator properly it's been smooth sailing
16:49:38 <RodgerTheGreat> haven't needed my PicKit at all
16:50:03 <RodgerTheGreat> tp: any plans for your cortices?
16:50:26 <tp> was your chip config not in the list supplied with the FF tarball ?
16:51:02 <beretta> haha... no pickit is a good thing!
16:51:31 <RodgerTheGreat> it was, but it incorrectly specified the frequency the chip ran at, causing it to calculate the baud rate for the UART incorrectly
16:51:58 <RodgerTheGreat> simple enough fix once I knew what was wrong
16:52:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I just spent about an hour assuming the problem was with my terminal emulator
16:52:16 <tp> yes, definitely, the arms will run Riscy Pygness  or I'll use C
16:52:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I just obtained another fun forthy toy a few moments ago
16:52:43 <tp> depending on the task
16:52:49 <RodgerTheGreat> any of you folks heard of the Wikireader?
16:53:01 <tp> mot I
16:53:06 <tp> not I
16:53:11 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a little touchscreen/LCD widget that can browse a static copy of wikipedia from an SD card
16:53:17 <RodgerTheGreat> costs about $15
16:53:27 <tp> ahh, it does ring a bell
16:53:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and it has a forth interpreter onboard
16:53:33 <beretta> ah oh...
16:53:55 <RodgerTheGreat> it's very easy to swap out the reader OS with the forth interpreter so it just boots and runs a forth app from the SD card
16:53:58 <beretta> forth pre-installed ?
16:54:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it should make for some fun hacking
16:54:03 <RodgerTheGreat> beretta: yep
16:54:25 * beretta rubs his hands together
16:54:33 <RodgerTheGreat> you can find them cheap on amazon
16:54:35 <RodgerTheGreat> bbiab
16:54:58 <tp> lol, thats gotta be the smallest Forth system with a screen yet
16:55:28 <beretta> the rpi is fairly simple to put a hosted forth on (and a native forth)
16:56:02 <tp> yeah I'd imagine so, as it has plenty of resources
16:56:26 <tp> I havbe forth on a couple of chips, because my interest is embedded only
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17:01:03 <beretta> bought it.
17:01:21 <tp> beretta, then you can plug the rpi into a motorola atrix 'laptop thingie accessory' and you have a grown up Wikireader ?
17:01:57 <beretta> donno.
17:02:10 <beretta> I haven't played around much with my rpi (yet)
17:02:57 <beretta> I'm still goofing with my forth VM, and my CoCo3 booter.
17:04:16 <tp> trs-80 os/9 ?
17:04:44 <beretta> yup
17:05:37 <beretta> huh... I've just played around with FF.  I forgot you need a "cr/lf" every once in a while.
17:05:44 <tp> that takes me back,   I developed a Z80 device on a Trs-80 way back
17:06:09 <beretta> uhm... the coco3 is a 6809 way cooler than the z80 ;)
17:06:28 <tp> yeah, I have a couple of 6909 cpus here I think
17:06:32 <tp> 6809
17:07:06 <tp> I loved motorola cpus back then, they were smooth as silk to program
17:07:21 <beretta> yeah.
17:07:25 <tp> 6802, 68HC11
17:07:50 <tp> I had a development system for the 6800, wish I could remember it's name
17:07:55 <beretta> I've gotten use to a no-line buffer forth, I find line interpretation strange now.
17:08:07 <tp> it used 8" floppies, was a kind of hobyist system
17:08:46 <beretta> gotta like 5 16bit registers.
17:09:05 <tp> 6809 ?
17:09:20 <beretta> and no goofy backwards index regs like the 6502
17:09:36 <tp> the 6502 was horrible
17:09:49 <tp> no 16bit index register
17:09:50 <beretta> 6809 has D,X,Y,U,S
17:10:18 <tp> yeah, motorola made beautifully symetric chips
17:10:38 <tp> thats why assembly coding was so easy with them
17:10:46 <beretta> granted the math was a bit limited on the 16's (basically just adding)
17:11:02 <tp> when the z80 came out I took a look at the register set and went 'WTF'!
17:11:06 <beretta> but with forth... adding is all you need.
17:11:45 <beretta> ok... you need NAND too.
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17:12:34 <tp> I'm a hardware guy, software is a secondary interest to me, necessary to make the hardware function
17:13:44 <beretta> oh... wikireader is open source... cool
17:14:28 <KipIngram> tp: I learned on a 6809 - awesme little processor.
17:14:28 <beretta> no no no... the *hardware* is only necessary to make the *software* function ! :)
17:15:08 <tp> beretta, hahah
17:16:00 <tp> KipIngram, fully agree, I was working in the video games industry when the 6809 started being deployed in game boards because it was so much better
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17:17:14 <beretta> too bad the coco3 was a marginal system to stick a 6809 into.
17:17:26 <tp> oddly, the old 6502 was widely used by Atari (in vector scan boards), and did amazing things, but I still didnt like it
17:19:51 <tp> KipIngram, I learned on a National Semi 'Pace' system, then a National Semi, 'SCMP', then built my own 1 bit dev system, using a Motorola 150001, 1 bit cpu.
17:20:29 <tp> all around 1976 I think
17:21:07 <beretta> 1 bit cpu?
17:21:10 <beretta> really?
17:21:24 <tp> yep
17:22:08 <tp> they were used in traffic signal systems, lots of hand held calculators used 1 bit micros
17:22:21 <beretta> huh.
17:22:25 <beretta> I'll have to read up.
17:22:42 <tp> thats why calculators were so slow
17:23:02 <tp> all that serial arithmetic ...
17:24:29 <tp> http://hackaday.com/2012/03/01/a-one-bit-processor/
17:25:08 <tp> and the 'cpu' I used for my little system : http://www.linurs.org/mc14500.html
17:45:23 <ttmrichter> tp: I will always like the 6502 over the 6809 for one little feature: the 6502 forced everybody to lower the prices on microprocessors.
17:50:45 <beretta> gp
18:04:35 <tp> ttmrichter, someone would have sooner or later
18:08:30 <ttmrichter> Yes, I'm sure.  But it happened to be MOS and the 6502 that did it, poking a sharp stick in the eye of a bunch of "elite"-focused companies in the process.
18:08:47 <ttmrichter> I'll always be a 6502 fan because of this.  MOS basically invented the hobbyist market (by accident!).
18:10:02 <ttmrichter> At the same time that MOS was saying "anybody can buy our chip, and please go ahead and make copies of the documentation," Signetics was saying "if you want information on our products, please send us a letter on your letterhead."
18:10:16 <ttmrichter> And Motorola was saying "$300 please."
18:10:20 <tp> yeah, I have to agree
18:10:39 <tp> in many ways, the micro makers are still doing that
18:10:46 <ttmrichter> Yes, they are.
18:11:01 <ttmrichter> There's some that make nice kit at reasonable prices (STM).
18:11:14 <tp> Ive always thought the sensible thing to do is give away the best assemblers, compilers you can make for your chip, to sell more chips ...
18:11:19 <ttmrichter> And there's some making lousy kit at horrendous prices (Intel).
18:11:25 <ttmrichter> But software?
18:11:26 <ttmrichter> Wow.
18:11:33 <ttmrichter> Yeah, nobody gets that right out there.
18:11:52 <ttmrichter> At the VERY least you should be giving out free CLI versions of compilers and assemblers.
18:12:06 <tp> chip makers sell chips, so I'd have thought anything that sells more chips would be in their interest ?
18:12:09 <ttmrichter> STM is one of the worst offenders here, sadly.
18:12:14 <tp> yeah
18:12:18 <ttmrichter> They do everything so right with their hardware.
18:12:24 <tp> and silicon labs ... 
18:12:26 <ttmrichter> But they do everything so WRONG with their software.
18:12:30 <tp> agreed
18:12:38 <ttmrichter> STLink is the dumbest idea in history.
18:12:54 <tp> yes
18:12:57 <ttmrichter> "Let's make a proprietary connection that only we have the docs for and that we won't give to anybody unless they're a multi-million dollar outfit.)
18:13:01 <tp> it's ironic really
18:13:03 <ttmrichter> s/\)/"/
18:13:16 <tp> here is the classic example
18:13:51 <tp> RMS makes GCC back in the day, gives himself RSI, but believes that a Free compiler is essential
18:14:07 <tp> shoot forward to today
18:14:31 <tp> Android gets created, and uses Linux as it's base
18:14:45 <tp> Linux is built on Gcc, and Gcc compiles for ARM
18:15:15 <dzho> making gforth the forth of choice for ARM ;-)
18:15:24 <tp> last I heard, 1.5 MILLION new Android devices are registered *every day* 
18:15:43 <tp> and that number is probably still climbing
18:15:59 <ttmrichter> Why do you think Apple has gone all thermonuclear lawyering?
18:15:59 <tp> thats a LOT of chips that are sold because of a Free compiler
18:16:17 <tp> yeah, but theyre a cult, or a religion ?
18:16:34 <tp> a cult when the leader is alive, a religion when hes dead ?
18:17:22 <tp> but my point is the chip makers were to closed minded to see what a free compiler could do for their chips
18:18:06 <tp> Android may have been built on another arch, if it had a excellent Free compiler etc
18:18:33 <dzho> that seems unlikely to me
18:18:37 <tp> dzho, not all ARMs will support gforth tho ?
18:18:44 <dzho> tp: I'm mostly kidding
18:18:49 <dzho> i don't really know
18:18:54 <tp> ahh :)
18:19:05 * tp is a bit slow sometimes
18:19:24 <ttmrichter> I'm still watching this wave of ARM with a little bit of trepidation.
18:19:31 <dzho> though I'd be surprised that, if you can get a nearly-standard linux install on, say, a raspberry pi, that you couldn't get gforth running on it
18:19:31 <ttmrichter> ARM has some really nasty habits of its own.
18:19:36 <tp> trepidation, why ?
18:19:39 <tp> aha
18:19:52 <ttmrichter> tp: Try and get complete documentation on ARM's instruction set(s).
18:19:57 <ttmrichter> (Hint: This is not possible.)
18:20:13 <dzho> but, that's sort of anathema to most forth folk, since the whole point to them is not to have all that C stuff running underneath
18:20:22 <ttmrichter> Well, it *is* possible.  If you're willing to give them a boatload of cash and sign an NDA.
18:20:36 <dzho> yeah, arm is basically this hydra of many many me too designs
18:20:37 <ttmrichter> If your "Forth" is written in C, it's not a Forth.
18:20:41 <tp> I don't really have enough experience yet, I have a couple of $$hundred of ARM chips and will play with them for a year or so, then I'll have a better idea
18:20:43 <ttmrichter> It's a Forth emulator.
18:20:45 <dzho> case in point
18:20:50 <beretta> I thought ARM is a Open Standard ?
18:20:54 <dzho> ttmrichter: thank you for stepping up as an example
18:21:00 <ttmrichter> beretta: Are you joking?
18:21:06 <ttmrichter> ARM is a company.
18:21:13 <ttmrichter> One that is almost viciously predatory at times.
18:21:18 <dzho> beretta: more like, it has some standard cores on which everyone builds their own proprietary mess
18:21:20 <ttmrichter> The only difference between ARM and Intel is size.
18:21:38 <ttmrichter> Everybody who makes an ARM core is paying ARM the company a boatload of cash.
18:21:40 <dzho> the comparison is a bit difficult
18:21:45 <dzho> Intel makes Intel chips.
18:21:58 <ttmrichter> I'm talking in terms of business practices.
18:22:05 <ttmrichter> Both are wannabe monopolists.
18:22:09 <dzho> ARM licenses ARM chips, and every little mom and pop design firm makes their own and then sends them out to be fabbed
18:22:14 <tp> ttmrichter, Intel would be smaller than ARM by now wouldn't it ? ;-)
18:22:17 <beretta> ARM just licenses the cores, no?  they produce no chips.
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18:22:31 <ttmrichter> beretta: They produce small batches of demo chips, last I heard.
18:22:35 <tp> beretta, corrct
18:22:46 <dzho> does ARM own any fabs, though?
18:22:50 <ttmrichter> Basically they have sample cores they can send as part of the sales team.
18:22:57 <ttmrichter> And no, they definitely don't own fabs.
18:23:01 <ttmrichter> They're smart that way.
18:23:11 <ttmrichter> Owning fabs is how you get trapped.
18:23:23 <tp> yeah, a fab costs upward of a Billion$
18:23:32 <ttmrichter> And then you're stuck with it when technology moves on.
18:23:33 <dzho> soemone has to own them
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18:23:43 <tp> true
18:23:55 <ttmrichter> You either pay billions more to keep up with the Jones family or you make ever-increasingly irrelevant kit.
18:24:01 <tp> Life is a long list of challenges :)
18:24:18 <ttmrichter> dzho: If you own a general fab, even if technology moves on, not everything moves on to the new stuff.
18:24:23 <ttmrichter> So you can do wonderful business that way.
18:24:31 <ttmrichter> Today you're making bleeding-edge CPUs.
18:24:39 <ttmrichter> Tomorrow you're making peripheral controllers.
18:24:43 <ttmrichter> The next day you're making ...
18:24:54 <ttmrichter> So you'll have your fab productive and profitable for a long time.
18:25:13 <ttmrichter> But if you're the guy making the bleeding-edge CPUs, owning a fab is an albatross.
18:25:33 <tp> ttmrichter, like all manufacturing, it's keep up, keep infront, or die slowly
18:25:33 <ttmrichter> It's going to be an ever-less-useful weight around your neck.
18:26:06 <ttmrichter> tp: But the life cycles are very different when you're the fab owner as your main business and when the fab is secondary to your main business.
18:26:12 <tp> probably true for all business
18:26:17 <ttmrichter> Indeed.
18:26:31 <ttmrichter> Businesses should focus on core competencies and on controlling vital processes.
18:26:37 <tp> agreed
18:26:42 <ttmrichter> Beyond that they should outsource.
18:27:37 <tp> if I was a micro maker, Id pay the GPL guys to write a decent development system, and release it under the GPL, and concentrate on making the chips
18:27:41 <ttmrichter> http://imgur.com/ymUneDP
18:27:46 <ttmrichter> Incidentally, Sony just won.  :D
18:28:04 <ttmrichter> tp: I wouldn't even go that far.
18:28:32 <ttmrichter> Pay them to make good *CLI* tools: compiler, assembler, linker, programmer and let an industry develop around it for GUI tools.
18:28:41 <ttmrichter> (Or just pay the Geany guys to support my kit.:D)
18:28:51 <tp> oh yeah, well thats what I meant :)
18:29:14 <tp> by a decent dev system, as I don't use IDE's etc
18:29:22 <tp> I'm a command line interface guy
18:29:54 <ttmrichter> Actually, so am I.
18:30:00 <ttmrichter> The only GUI component I'd like is for debugging.
18:30:13 <ttmrichter> Because it's convenient to have a window for registers, a window for source display, a window for console, etc.
18:30:15 <tp> yeah, a nuce GUI debugger is good
18:30:18 <tp> agree
18:30:31 <ttmrichter> But for development?  GUIs can eat a bag of dicks.
18:30:37 <tp> gui's are better for some things for sure
18:30:42 <ttmrichter> I have a text editor (and JUST a text editor) and a console.
18:30:46 <ttmrichter> I don't need nor want more.
18:31:03 <tp> a makefile is all I need
18:31:35 <tp> and ones editor of choice (tp carefully avoids all editor wars)
18:31:44 <ttmrichter> I'm not so fond of make.  It's the worst build system out there.  Except for all its alternatives.
18:31:51 <tp> hahah
18:32:04 <ttmrichter> Seriously, make sucks.  But its alternatives are far worse.  Which is scary.
18:32:14 <tp> I strugle with it, but hey, I use whats there
18:32:16 <ttmrichter> My editor of choices is ABE.  :D
18:32:24 <ttmrichter> (Anything But Emacs)
18:32:31 <tp> hahah
18:33:06 <tp> Im considering trying Emacs,  but as a long term Vim user, I'm not sure how well I'll go
18:33:24 <beretta> I use emacs :)
18:33:31 <dzho> emacs is hard to just "try" imo
18:33:44 <tp> Frank Sargeant has been extolling me to try Emacs, and I respect his views
18:34:05 <dzho> like a lot of things, you really need to just jump in, without a life preserver
18:34:17 <tp> dzho, I'm probably doomed to failure, but I'll try
18:34:19 <dzho> maybe that's just me
18:34:32 <dzho> the emacs reference card I've found to be handy
18:34:40 <beretta> it's OK.  it edits, opens, saves, finds.
18:34:55 <ttmrichter> tp: I've done the attempt to switch to Emacs and came out of it with two observations.
18:35:00 <dzho> honestly, my use of it tracks the old joke about it:  it's a great operating system, it just needs an editor
18:35:01 <ttmrichter> 1. Emacs is an incredibly powerful tool.
18:35:04 <tp> Frank suggested a reference card, use that for a few weeks
18:35:18 <ttmrichter> 2. Emacs requires a level of devotion that I'm not willing to give to one single tool.
18:35:22 <dzho> the reference card is part of the distribution, fwiw
18:35:45 <ttmrichter> Basically if you don't allow Emacs to take over EVERYTHING YOU DO you're doing it wrong.
18:36:01 <ttmrichter> And if you don't take it to that level it sets up massive destructive interference with anything else you might do.
18:36:12 <tp> I've heard it said that Emacs isnt a editor, it's a way of life
18:36:19 <ttmrichter> I just can't justify the cognitive expense.  And yes, that's the way to put it.
18:36:40 <beretta> strange words from forth programmers.
18:36:44 <dzho> so . . . vi?
18:36:45 <ttmrichter> People who use Emacs don't piss me off.  (I find editor wars really funny, personally.)  But Emacs is just not a tool I'm willing to devote my life to.
18:36:45 <beretta> :)
18:37:06 <tp> vim ?
18:37:08 <ttmrichter> beretta: I'm not sure I follow?
18:37:11 <beretta> I wish emacs awas forth and not lisp.
18:37:36 <ttmrichter> tp: I recently switched away from Vim, actually.  I still use it as a back-up editor and as an editor on remote connections though.
18:37:40 <beretta> I could create macros and such easier if emacs was forth and not lisp.
18:37:54 <dzho> the thing that continues to attract me to emacs is that the emacs community seems to be the last solid core of people who still can and do do a lot of things with an ncurses type interface
18:37:56 <tp> ttmrichter, interesting
18:37:58 <ttmrichter> beretta: If there was an Emacs with a modern interface and Forth as the back end I'd be very happy.
18:38:36 <tp> WARNING !!! editor wars approaching .... :)
18:38:41 <dzho> heh
18:38:47 <beretta> :)
18:39:14 <tp> at least you guys are united with a love of Forth, thats gotta help
18:39:14 <dzho> man, when the going gets tough I turn to joe, so don't look at me
18:39:18 <dzho> :-)
18:39:58 <beretta> I forgot all about joe.  I grew up with a wordstar clone so emacs isn't so strange.
18:40:28 <tp> they say a good programmer is conversant with a number of programming languages, and sees the best and worst, perhaps that also applies to editors ?
18:41:01 <ttmrichter> dzho: When I said ABE, I meant it.  I would use ed over Emacs.  :)
18:41:12 <ttmrichter> (Indeed I still occasionally fire up ed just to keep the skills up.)
18:41:40 <tp> It goes with the Snobol big iron in the basement ? ;-)
18:42:00 <ttmrichter> I only wish I had some big iron.  :(  The only big iron I've got is SIMHed.
18:42:55 <ttmrichter> One thing ed has over screen editors of any sort is the ability to be scripted without difficulty.
18:43:07 <ttmrichter> And I don't mean "has a scripting language" I mean *IS* a scripting language.  :D
18:43:16 <tp> aha
18:43:24 <tp> whats a SIMHed ?
18:43:35 <ttmrichter> SIMH is a collection of simulators for historical machines.
18:43:48 <ttmrichter> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
18:43:56 <tp> aha
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18:44:18 <tp> I don't wish to relive history, I wish to escape it
18:44:21 <beretta> if any of use where real forthies, the proper answer for editor would be BLOCK/SCREENS ... !
18:44:24 <tp> thats why I have no sims
18:45:31 <ttmrichter> tp: Pity.  I really enjoy the old kit in ways that the new kit just doesn't provide.
18:45:50 <tp> beretta, Riscy Pygness uses Emacs and BLOCK/SCREENS
18:45:59 <ttmrichter> One of the attractive elements of old kit is that it's actually possible for one person to understand it completely from the ground up.
18:46:03 <tp> http://pygmy.utoh.org/riscy/cortex/
18:46:12 <ttmrichter> Waitwhat?  Riscy Pygness requires Emacs?
18:46:19 <ttmrichter> That's the end of me considering that one then.
18:46:23 <tp> doesnt 'require'
18:46:48 <tp> Frank uses Emacs, RP works fine with whatever editor you like
18:47:00 <ttmrichter> OK, that's fine then.
18:47:18 <ttmrichter> There are some languages out there that basically require you to use Emacs if you don't want to be crippled out of the gate.
18:47:19 <tp> sorry, I didnt mean to engender any heart attacks!
18:47:25 <ttmrichter> (The Lisps tend to fall into this camp.)
18:47:34 <ttmrichter> And there's one language that REQUIRES Emacs or you can't use it at all.
18:47:37 <ttmrichter> (Mozart/OZ)
18:47:59 <beretta> well considering emacs is a lisp...
18:48:10 <tp> RP uses Franks TCL terminal, which apparently slots right into Emacs
18:48:45 <tp> but otherwise, it's like any terminal, and doesnt suffer any comms issues, the way that Flashforth can
18:48:57 <beretta> that's sort of like saying that forth is to impliment in a forth enviroment... yeah.. duh!
18:49:20 <tp> however the intro to blocks with RP was and is quite enjoyable for me
18:52:05 <beretta> I once made a block editor (in forth of course) that recompiled itself and rebooted the host into its new self, and opened up it's source (at the same place I left it) for further editing.... in one key stroke!
18:52:49 <tp> nice!@
18:53:00 * tp can't begin to imagine how that is done
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18:54:09 <tp> ttmrichter, you have some STM discovery kits ?
18:56:09 <tp> ttmrichter, do you have the STM32 'value line' Discovery, cause I think that would be fairly easy to put RP onto
18:56:31 <tp> youd need a USB to 3.3v cable also
18:57:18 <tp> which is about $1 in China
18:58:05 <ttmrichter> tp: I have the STM32L, F3, and F4 discovery boards.
18:58:23 <ttmrichter> It's ... was it yunfan or the other Chinese guy that has the F0 discovery?
18:58:30 <ttmrichter> yunfan: Care to chime in?
18:59:37 <tp> ttmrichter, all you need is windows and the SWD software from STM to load up the RP hexfile
18:59:54 <tp> thats easy enough and works well here
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19:58:16 <RodgerTheGreat> anyways I obtained a wikireader and I think it should be a fun little toy
19:58:25 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe make some games or something
19:59:24 <tp> Sell them in a pretty shrink wrap, with a book on learning Forth ?
19:59:42 <tp> Ages 7 - 99
20:00:10 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
20:00:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno I think the best thing for that is just linking people to a JS-Forth interpreter and the online version of Starting Forth
20:00:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking I could turn it into a nice personalized gift for someone maybe
20:02:08 <tp> <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno I think the best thing for that is just linking people to a JS-Forth interpreter and the online version of Starting Forth ..... as long as they don't use Internet Exploder ?
20:02:28 <RodgerTheGreat> there's no helping you if you're on a windozer
20:02:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll have to see how fast it is but the forth has an assembler and you have direct access to the framebuffer so I imagine I could do some reasonably nifty vector graphics style stuff
20:02:54 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe a battlezone like game or something
20:02:55 <tp> hahah
20:03:17 <tp> ahh, battlezone brings back memories
20:04:31 <tp> another 6502 powered vectorscan game
20:05:01 <tp> made by Atari, who only seemed to release commercial video games based on 6502's
20:08:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought a bunch of their arcade cabinets used z80s or something
20:09:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I know the 2600, 400 and 800 were all 6502 machines
20:12:34 <tp> in my day, atari only used 6502's
20:12:49 <tp> but the Z80 and the 6809 were used by everyone else
20:13:15 <tp> the actual chip atari used was a 40 pin DIP 6502 if I recall correctly
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20:14:34 <tp> often the faults were poorly soldered boards and we would test the cpu soldering by inserting a screwdriver under the cpu and applying upward pressure. If the cpu popped up out of the board, yep, soldering problem, 40x dry joints
20:15:23 <tp> this was mainly the z80 boards made in Taiwan, the Atari boards were of the highest quality
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21:30:36 <beretta> RodgerTheGreat: good news on the wikireader... I was hoping for a framebuffer.
21:30:47 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
21:31:00 <beretta> I think someone figured a way to attack a serial port to it
21:31:30 <beretta> attack = attach
21:31:41 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
21:31:56 <RodgerTheGreat> the board and all the software is open source, y'know
21:32:21 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/blob/master/samo-lib/forth/ansi-forth.fs <- here's the forth kernel. Near the bottom are some of the specialized serial I/O, display drivers, etc
21:32:32 <RodgerTheGreat> hex 80000 constant lcd-vram
21:33:14 <RodgerTheGreat> the implementation of a lot of the examples and such isn't very forthy (not very factored) but there is copious example code
21:33:34 <tp> <RodgerTheGreat>the atari games I was referring to were giant PCB's about 12" x12" that Atari made, they only went into commercial video game cabinets, i.e. stand up consoles, or sit down units that one would find in places like 'Timezone' ....
21:52:27 <beretta> yikes... that wiki forth code...
21:53:15 <beretta> it looks like ansi forth.... I'll prolly replace it with my own.
21:56:11 <beretta> s" and friends are annoying.
21:58:09 <beretta> I've been chucking them lately for a parsing word that uses the first character as a delimiter....
21:58:38 <beretta> so:  str "Hello World" type.
21:59:36 <beretta> I notice wiki has a s' as well as s" ... just for the quoting problem.
21:59:45 <beretta> and horibly factored too!
22:00:27 <beretta> they code copied everything... except the delimiter in the defs.
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22:14:15 <tp> ansi-forth.fs
22:14:15 <tp> \
22:14:15 <tp> \ Copyright (c) 2009 Openmoko Inc.
22:14:46 <tp> does that mean that the much loved and failed 'opensource' cellphone the 'moko' was Forth based ?
22:16:56 <tp> RodgerTheGreat, I had a look at 'jsforth', pretty cool, a easy intro to Forth
22:31:17 <beretta> :)
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22:40:35 <RodgerTheGreat> beretta: it's not a shining example or whatever but it's sufficiently forth that you can fix it in a couple dozen lines of code
22:41:22 <beretta> indeed
22:42:57 <RodgerTheGreat> it's got an assembler, a halfway-decent ANSI kernel and bindings for all the wikireader's hardware
22:43:27 <tp> what is the cpu in the wikireader ?
22:43:30 <tp> arm ?
22:43:39 <RodgerTheGreat> some goofy thing lemme look it up
22:43:48 <tp> goofy ... :)
22:43:59 <tp> a Mickey Mouse cpu ?
22:44:33 <RodgerTheGreat>  Epson S1C33E07 
22:44:46 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a 32-bit risc thing
22:45:38 <tp> I see what you mean
22:45:48 <tp> epson!!
22:46:00 <tp> crikey, a dot matrix head cant be far away ?
22:46:01 <RodgerTheGreat> runs somewhere around 30-60mhz
22:46:29 <RodgerTheGreat> so it's something weird but it has halfway decent specs for a cheap gadget that runs on a pair of AAAs
22:46:57 <RodgerTheGreat> and like I said the source for everything includes an assembler and a whole bunch of examples of using it
22:47:08 <RodgerTheGreat> so I figure I can pick up what I need to know as I go along
22:47:14 <tp> I bought a second Epson industrial inkjet years ago,  great big thing with pumps and stuff. I saw a large door in the side, and being a idiot, stuck my hand inside to see what was in there ....
22:47:20 <tp> second hand
22:47:39 <tp> what was inside that door ????
22:47:42 <RodgerTheGreat> so what you're saying is you type on a one-handed keyboard now
22:47:47 <tp> hahahah
22:47:54 <beretta> :)
22:48:43 <tp> *long* and *sharp* vampire needle to pierce the big inkjet cartridge that went in that space
22:49:55 <beretta> you where epsomed.
22:50:10 <tp> I was
22:50:18 <beretta> jsforth is pretty nice....
22:50:47 <tp> I don't like japanese cpus, Ive always found them short on support and doc
22:51:12 <RodgerTheGreat>  I like using the http://repl.it/ forth implementation when I'm on a random office computer- it's based on JS-forth
22:51:14 <beretta> it looks a bunch like arm code.
22:51:17 <tp> jsforth behaved a little oddly for me when I tried it a while ago
22:52:10 <tp> : world  ." hello, world"  ;
22:52:21 <tp> ok
22:52:32 <tp> world
22:52:33 <tp> === error(-13): word not found ===
22:52:44 <tp> and it's not in the word list
22:53:18 <tp> I forgot it's Java, so I must sacrifice my firstborn for it to run properly for me
22:54:00 <beretta> hmm... I did this: : test begin s" Hello World!" type space again ;  ... and "test" bombed... out... js error.
22:55:12 <tp> do you have a firstborn to spare ?
22:56:06 <beretta> soorry... I clean out of firstborn's
22:56:22 <tp> lol
22:56:34 <beretta> hmmm... I don't think it likes "begin again"
22:56:57 <tp> tell it to Oracle, theyre the ones collecting firstborns ;-)
22:57:21 <beretta> oh well.. bed time for me!
22:57:36 <tp> nigh beretta !
22:57:47 <beretta> oh... it's Java Script, not java ?
22:58:05 <tp> is there a difference ?
22:58:20 <beretta> up...
22:58:25 <beretta> java is a VM.
22:58:38 <beretta> java script is an unrelated web language.
22:58:51 <beretta> really.
22:58:52 * tp is clueless re java, just a overpowering , blinding, phobic  hatred of java
22:59:01 <tp> ah ok
22:59:15 <tp> yet both have 'java' in their names
22:59:29 <beretta> see how the hatred spreads?
22:59:30 <tp> is someone about to get sued ?
22:59:36 <beretta> don't worry:  O'
22:59:38 <RodgerTheGreat>  because JavaScript was designed for marketing reasons to syntactically resemble java and have a similar name
22:59:47 <RodgerTheGreat> that's where the similarity ends for the most part
22:59:47 <tp> by Sun ?
23:00:14 <beretta> I'm sure JS has crappy textual uber-late name binding too!
23:01:02 <beretta> java interfaces:  Great for Programmers....Bad for Programs.
23:02:06 <RodgerTheGreat> um
23:02:36 <RodgerTheGreat> that is at best a shitty JavaEE frameworks thing and in no way part of the java language itself
23:03:04 <RodgerTheGreat> overuse of reflection is bad, overuse of reflection is not required by java
23:04:24 <tp> um ... I do have to say this .... not all java is bad :)
23:04:39 <beretta> I'm not sure how you impliment interfaces (pardon the pun) with out some serious late-binding.  I thought interfaces where the hart-and-sould (beside object inheritance) of java?
23:05:12 <beretta> geeze... my spelins goona carp!
23:05:17 <tp> I have the latest Microchip java based IDE for PICS running on this Linux box, it's been up about a week, hasnt crashed, hasnt chewed up all my ram, and still works .... wonders never cease!
23:05:50 <beretta> huh
23:06:07 <beretta> how many children has it eaten ?
23:06:12 <beretta> :)
23:06:16 <beretta> g'night all!
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23:06:28 <tp> night :)
23:07:29 <tp> and it also hasnt caused this Linux box to crash, ... I think this is probably the best java app I've ever seen!
23:08:07 <tp> http://www.microchip.com/pagehandler/en-us/family/mplabx/
23:08:39 <tp> free for Linux, Apple, Winduhs, and the  Trs-80 ......
23:08:49 <tp> ok, I lied about one of the above
23:13:58 <tp> good old gforth didnt fail to deliver 
23:14:30 <tp> world hello, world ok
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