00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.09 00:18:51 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00:24:10 --- join: malyn_ (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 00:31:18 --- quit: malyn (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 00:32:44 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-113-13.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 01:00:23 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 01:18:27 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 01:35:52 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 01:36:15 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@gertm.eu) joined #forth 01:53:10 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 01:59:02 --- nick: yunfan -> NaoTanRen 02:01:01 --- nick: NaoTanRen -> NiuTouNaoTanRen 02:02:35 --- nick: NiuTouNaoTanRen -> NaoTanRen 02:05:23 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 02:06:28 --- nick: NaoTanRen -> yunfan 02:28:48 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host31-51-149-124.range31-51.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 02:29:55 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:44:32 --- quit: tangentstorm (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:45:27 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 02:48:40 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 03:50:16 --- join: dto-00 (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 03:52:02 --- quit: dto (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 03:57:36 --- nick: dto-00 -> dto 04:04:29 ttmrichter: is there any simulator for cortex m0? 04:07:06 Not that I know of, but I haven't looked. 04:08:19 it doesnt have jtag ? 04:08:34 thats the cheapest family so no jtag I think 04:09:32 Oh, it probably has JTAG. 04:09:41 some have Serial wire debug (SWD) 04:09:54 Keil apparently has M0 simulation in its tool set. 04:10:03 if it has jtag or SWD, yunfan doesnt need a simulator 04:10:32 because GBD will show everything in real time 04:11:52 Which F0 have you got, yunfan? 04:14:02 Actually it looks like none of the F0s have JTAG. 04:14:05 You're right there. 04:14:36 but some have Serial wire debug (SWD) which is better than jtag I read, for dev use 04:14:57 the chips I have just bought are F0's and have SWD 04:16:07 Jtag was designed for testing systems of chips (i read) but the new SWD is designed for software development on a single target 04:16:46 Ill be trying SWD soon when the new chips arrive, using a STM dev board SWD facility 04:17:11 I've got SWD and JTAG both on my FPGA board. 04:17:21 aha 04:17:33 For the MCU I mean. 04:17:42 For the FPGA it's USB Blaster. 04:17:52 (A fancy extension to JTAG as far as I can tell. 04:17:53 ) 04:17:56 Linux has great JTAG support which I use, and SWD support also, but I havent tested that yet 04:22:52 Unfortunately all but one of the boards I have uses STLink for remote stuff. 04:23:06 And Linux sucks with STLink support because STM is being so proprietary about it. 04:25:24 yeah I read that 04:25:44 I had tried stmlink under Linux and got nowhere 04:26:06 but the latesy stmlink support sounds encouraging 04:26:50 using a STMF4 discovery with Linux I was able to erase the flash of the F4 chip 04:27:10 but couldnt upload a hex file to it 04:31:12 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 04:33:54 For those I just fire up VirtualBox for now. 04:34:06 Until I get the cash together to get a small Windows-only PC. 04:34:15 (I may get one for free, actually.) 04:34:51 I havent been able to get usb passthru working on this gentoo box yet, so I just used a win7 box to run the STM software 04:35:24 --- join: JDat (JDat@89.248.91.5) joined #forth 04:35:35 I find KVM heaps better than virtualbox as well 04:36:02 since Oracle bought Sun, I think VB has gone downhill a bit 04:36:17 KVM doesn't work if you don't have the CPU extensions active in your system. 04:36:24 true 04:36:26 (I can't recall the name for them.) 04:36:37 VB at least works. 04:36:45 good point 04:36:54 doesnt everyone have those extensions ? 04:36:56 But still, I'm going to get a cheap, small (probably Mini-ITX) PC for this. 04:37:03 My laptop doesn't. 04:37:12 The CPU has them, but the BIOS actually turns them off. 04:37:19 I have a couple of dual core Atom mini-itx's and theyre not too bad 04:37:49 theyre single core, but dual thread I think 04:37:58 and so look like dual core under top 04:38:09 Yeah. My wife's netbook is like that. 04:38:18 The second thread gives it about 15% more performance. Not really worth it. 04:38:18 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 04:38:37 they have been really reliable, in fact the windows 7 pc is one of those (temporarily) 04:39:23 my VM machine has 6 cores and 12 threads, and seems to loaf along 04:39:36 it also has 64GB ram 04:39:49 it's a Intel i7 in Sandy Bridge 04:40:07 all my business software is hosted on it 04:41:10 I used to have about 5 different servers in here, so I transferred them to the VM, and turned them off, saving a fair bit of electricity in the process 04:41:31 power is really expensive in Australia thesedays 04:55:14 --- quit: tangentstorm (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 05:00:32 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 05:27:26 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 05:32:57 --- join: ASau (~user@p4FF9605D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 05:41:11 --- join: HaikuUser (vision@88.206.59.57) joined #forth 05:45:51 --- quit: beretta (Quit: Leaving) 05:53:48 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 05:54:32 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 06:03:29 --- join: overdamped (~overdampe@unaffiliated/overdamped) joined #forth 06:05:27 --- quit: JDat () 06:15:38 --- quit: HaikuUser (Remote host closed the connection) 06:17:13 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-171-193.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 06:36:46 --- quit: segher (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 06:38:36 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 06:43:45 --- join: TheBombMaker (~Incredibl@modemcable139.215-23-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 06:43:52 --- quit: TheBombMaker (Changing host) 06:43:52 --- join: TheBombMaker (~Incredibl@unaffiliated/incredible) joined #forth 06:45:24 --- quit: overdamped (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 06:52:50 --- nick: dzho_ -> dzho 07:00:39 --- join: HaikuUser (vision@88.206.59.57) joined #forth 07:01:12 --- nick: HaikuUser -> KPG 07:05:48 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-113-13.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 07:24:04 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 07:29:01 --- join: robotustra (~robotustr@cable-11.246.173-140.electronicbox.net) joined #forth 07:30:35 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 07:39:18 --- quit: sirdancealo2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:46:56 --- join: overdamped (~overdampe@unaffiliated/overdamped) joined #forth 07:54:15 --- quit: overdamped (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 08:29:24 --- quit: KPG (Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-130530]: i've been blurred!) 08:29:34 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:41:44 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 09:03:32 --- join: HaikuUser (vision@88.206.45.135) joined #forth 09:28:09 --- join: sirdancealo2 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) joined #forth 10:01:23 --- quit: sirdancealo2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:09:10 --- join: sirdancealo2 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) joined #forth 10:26:23 --- quit: sirdancealo2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:45:16 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 10:53:14 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 11:15:25 --- join: Mat2 (~claude@91-65-144-133-dynip.superkabel.de) joined #forth 11:15:28 hi 11:18:29 --- join: overdamped (~overdampe@unaffiliated/overdamped) joined #forth 11:20:35 tp: I have a virtual server I lease from LeaseWeb I've been quite happy. 11:20:51 No business software, but I use it to run my irc interface, host a blog, etc. 11:21:05 It's really nice to have an "always on" irc client. 11:21:23 I use mosh to hook in to it, and mosh is so good that it's almost as though I'm running the client locally. 11:21:36 Totally seamless experience migrating from network to network, sleeping my tablet, etc. 11:51:39 --- join: sirdancealo2 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) joined #forth 12:26:37 --- quit: overdamped (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 12:54:05 From russia Forth Forum (Forth for microcontrollers) http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewforum.php?f=39&sid=a01efe61c2579ed122a7fc4cbe27516d 12:58:28 For PIC18 intresting Forth System (Forth and C ) http://fminus.sourceforge.net/ 13:06:45 more information for Forth http://fforum.winglion.ru (Sorry russian language. use? translate.google.com) 13:08:23 nice 13:10:00 happy to help 13:13:47 forum from 2006 and specific topic discussion... 13:19:27 I use translate.google.ru for quick reading English texts (my native languge - russian) 13:19:58 --- quit: sirdancealo2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:29:42 --- quit: HaikuUser (Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-130530]: i've been blurred!) 13:57:04 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 14:08:45 --- join: protist (~protist@144.173.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 14:13:24 --- join: sirdancealo2 (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) joined #forth 14:15:19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ 14:20:38 mark4: and what of it? 14:21:19 was just interesting 14:21:19 what the heck ? 14:21:25 bullshit but interesting lol 14:21:28 --- quit: albertone (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 14:26:17 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 14:29:09 this bullshit can be true 14:31:47 when earth size rises, why there exist active subduction zones ? 14:43:34 timecube 14:46:41 its the illuminati that invented subduction zones to mask the truth! 14:47:05 *lol* 14:59:18 --- quit: TheBombMaker (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:18:35 --- quit: newcup (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:30:55 Mat2 15:31:27 It seems that there is no subduction zones on th earth 15:31:58 the islands moves from these zones 15:32:34 in pacific ocean 15:35:03 --- join: overdamped (~overdampe@unaffiliated/overdamped) joined #forth 15:35:34 actually the man question is: why the oldest bottom is 200 000 000 y.o. while Earth is 4 580 000 000 y.o. 15:40:11 one prominent subduction zone lays straight east of Japan because the whole island areal is primary induced though compression from it as border of the japanic sea, a typical back-arc depression 15:41:00 some pacific subduction zones are partly exumated and can be visited (north sealand) 15:42:21 --- quit: overdamped (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 15:45:50 by the way, how can there be montains with very young age without plate tectonics ? 15:46:33 why collide india with asia ? 15:47:46 and whats about the fact, that the oldest marine bottom is found near the continents ? 15:48:49 http://www.pnsn.org/outreach/earthquakesources/csz 15:48:52 ^look here 15:49:43 get some sleep, ciao 15:49:55 --- quit: Mat2 (Quit: Verlassend) 15:55:17 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 16:06:58 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 16:07:56 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-107-8-120-203.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:15:33 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 16:33:27 --- join: overdamped (~overdampe@unaffiliated/overdamped) joined #forth 17:04:53 --- quit: Eth|cal (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 17:06:31 --- join: Eth|cal (~sam@ppp59-167-172-238.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 17:12:17 --- quit: overdamped (Quit: exit(EXIT_SUCCESS);) 17:56:06 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:57:11 --- join: karswell (~user@87.112.161.139) joined #forth 18:00:15 I have a shared server with Hostgator, and thats really good as well. Some things like my business software, I don't trust on the cloud as yet :) 18:00:32 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 18:01:51 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-24-130-130-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:11:03 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 18:11:15 Well, I don't really "trust" anything that's not under my direct control yet. Maybe when they integrate encryption into pretty much everything better than they have so far. 18:11:24 I just do stuff on the server that doesn't involve "trust." 18:11:39 same 18:11:41 I'd "prefer" privacy on my LeaseWeb server, but it's not going to ruin my life if I don't get it. 18:12:18 we do have a eCommerce server at Hostgator for the business, but that has to be in the cloud so people can buy our products 18:12:23 I value it primarily for its reliability and 100% (or very close thereto) uptime. 18:12:45 so true, Hostgator has been far more reliable than any hardware I have here 18:13:05 and in reality, far cheaper than local hardware 18:13:43 but old habits die hard, and my local VM on a GB lan offers me speeds Id never see on the cloud (from Australia) 18:13:53 Well, yeah - I think that the main thing an online provider has to offer is focus on uptime. If they don't deliver that then they offer nothing. 18:14:02 yes 18:14:25 There is a way to use public services without worrying about them nabbing your secrets. 18:14:48 altho ... check out this uptime 18:14:58 But it's non-trivial to integrate with existing infrastructure; it's really only viable if you're starting from scratch. 18:14:59 11:20:32 up 682 days, 18:36, load average: 0.33, 0.08, 0.02 18:15:19 My main problem with "TEH CLOWDZ" is that web-based companies have a history of being completely and utterly flaky. 18:15:20 Linux QNAP 2.6.30.6 #1 SMP Fri Apr 23 10:35:27 CST 2010 i686 unknow 18:15:37 thats my little 8TB Qnap, a dual Atom embedded unit 18:16:24 I'm going to keep my stuff on a service that may vanish tomorrow? Or may change its terms of service at the drop of a hat? Or may sell out and have the new owners change (or in extreme cases eliminate) services? 18:16:37 Well, what I really want is a Shamir secret sharing algorithm spread out over multipe online storage providers. 18:16:39 Not just uptime, KipIngram. 18:16:41 Stability in ALL things, including interfaces. 18:16:54 I mean c'mon, how many times has Google changed the UI on GMail alone in the past year? 18:17:00 Everything encrypted - no one provider has access to your secrets, or could even deprive you of them if they took your stuff offline. 18:17:10 Not to mention Google Office^WDrive. 18:17:10 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:17:24 That's the paranoid level, yes. 18:17:39 I don't have any secrets :) 18:17:44 But if you're not concerned about the offline stuff, a key server that your apps use that's under your control will do the trick. 18:17:49 tp: Everybody has secrets. 18:17:55 nah, not me 18:18:00 I'm australian 18:18:06 Everyone should be *treated* as though they have secrets. 18:18:29 Give me a few days, let me find all your mistresses. And give each of them each other's address. :) 18:18:29 Bah! I'm more boring than you (Canadian) and I have secrets. 18:18:30 Everyone's *possible secrets* - even if they're just letters to your mom - should be treated like national serets. 18:18:33 secrets. 18:18:39 the only thing that does worry us is crackers trying to prevent access to our osEcommerce server 18:18:40 When we have that infrastructre, then we're in business. 18:19:02 And we'll never have that infrastructure because it's not desirable to the people in power, KipIngram. 18:19:26 mistresses ! no thanks, one ex wife and one girlfriend is more than I can handle 18:20:35 Well, the few call the shots only as long as the many let them. 18:20:38 the tax man knows my every little detail, I'm dead boring 18:20:51 perhaps I could buy a secret one day ? 18:21:06 a long term investment secret ;-) 18:21:34 but then Prism would already know it, or so I read 18:21:38 I'm all about bitcoin, gpg privacy, mixmail, tor, etc. 18:22:08 my son has a couple of bitcoins, I like gpg, but have never used it 18:22:43 I think I have about 0.1 bitcoin... Mined 'em with my graphics card at some point. 18:22:46 my emails are so boring, people would wonder why I used pgp 18:23:16 ahh, it's cheaper to buy them, or better still sell some stuff and get paid in bitcoins 18:23:31 Yes - that's my primary interest. Not in mining. I just did that for grins. 18:23:37 :) 18:23:40 I'm interested in bitcoin as an anonymous currency. 18:24:41 Although it's only "solidly" anonymous until you try to cash it out. Once you try to convert it to damn near anything, then that's trackable. 18:24:45 I'm still waiting for a barcode to be put on my forehead, so I can leave money at home and pay for goods by tapping my face on a cashregister ;-) 18:24:58 There are bitcoin mixers that try to fix that, but I don't know how reliable they are. 18:25:17 tp: Mark of the beast, dude... ;-) 18:25:25 heheh, yeah 18:25:46 still, every convenience carries some downside 18:25:48 ;-) 18:25:56 look at the automobile ? 18:26:07 It's downside is? 18:26:23 people tried to ban it initially because of the horrific injuries 18:26:52 but we use it because the benefit outweighs the risk 18:26:55 Really? 18:26:57 Ok. 18:27:00 Sounds like people. 18:27:10 Sounds like people who couldn't yet afford an automobile... 18:27:14 we are prepared to die, just going shopping in the car 18:27:50 it's true, the original cars were just a buggy witha engine and tiller etc 18:28:15 useless brakes, heavy, absolutely no protection 18:28:32 KipIngram: I'm interested in the concept of a digital "currency of the people" but Bitcoin itself is a scam. 18:28:41 at one point a man had to run in front carrying a red flag to warn people a car was coming 18:29:00 tp: Cars TODAY cause horrific numbers of deaths and injuries. 18:29:06 ttmrichter: I have to say it's the *concept* of bitcoin that I like more than bitcoin itself. 18:29:09 yes, they syre do 18:29:12 sure 18:29:20 Even worse, people are hopping into their cars to drive two blocks to pick up a pack of smokes. 18:29:27 Something that has its underpinnings in mathematical certainity - not organizational fiat - is the way to go. 18:29:29 So it's also having a massive negative effect on health. 18:29:40 Pollution and "global warming" aside. 18:29:41 and because the gains outweigh the risks, we are prepared to die, using cars 18:29:56 KipIngram, I agreed 18:30:39 I think it's unfortunate that the car wasnt banned myself, even tho I love them like the next guy 18:31:06 You really can't ban technology. 18:31:17 It will all find its way out of the bag eventually, and should. 18:31:17 just the massive amounts of oil burned everyday is a irreplaceable waste of resources 18:31:32 Because ultimately what's done should be about individuals, not about "group authority." 18:31:36 KipIngram, true, and hence the car flourishes 18:32:32 Well, wait - if we're not going to use those resources then what value do they have? 18:32:45 If you're going to propose that resources be used - you have to propose a mechanism for deciding how. 18:32:59 Free market capitalism is the only right way as far as I'm concerned. 18:33:13 but individuals and 'group authority' can be hard to tell apart, for instance, the car has made a few individuals very rich, and killed many groups of people 18:33:17 Because it's built from the decisions of individuals - not from "group authority." (See above...) 18:34:01 KipIngram, I agree with you 100%, sadly tyrants and kings have other plans 18:34:01 Ok - I see us diverging in our thought processes here. I do want to talk more, but let's spread it out over time. At the moment I'm going to go watch TV with my family. :-) 18:34:04 Supernatural. 18:34:14 One of the best TV shows of the last few yeasr... 18:34:16 great sjow 18:34:20 show 18:34:20 s/yeasr/years/ 18:34:54 tho I enyoy, "elementary", "Sherlock" and some others 18:35:11 Those sound good too, but I've never gotten to any of them. 18:35:19 thanks for the chat, I shoud be working, and get easily distracted 18:35:24 Castle is good too, if you haven't watched. Start at the beginning - watch the whole thing. 18:35:29 :-) 18:35:32 I love the male actor 18:35:40 Me too - just try me in 12 hours and I will be easy to distract. 18:35:46 hes just outstanding, loved him in 'firefly' 18:35:55 I love the female actors - even the mom. She was so hot decades ago on Falcon Crest. 18:35:56 it's the TZ diff 18:36:03 The daughter is a bit young for me yet, but she's coming on strong. 18:36:07 time is 11:42 here on a Monday 18:36:10 And Beckett is hot hot hot... 18:36:21 yeah, she sure is 18:36:51 Ok - laters... 18:37:05 justified, vikings, and banshee are other series I love 18:37:09 ok, cya 18:48:51 And I'm back, this time somewhere with a more stable link. 18:49:00 welcome back:) 18:49:17 you have Internet connectivity issues ? 18:49:28 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:49:33 I was in my classroom earlier. The WiFi there is flaky. 18:49:39 Now I'm in the office. Good stable link here. 18:49:45 I thought Canada had decent Internet ? 18:49:54 aha 18:49:59 I'm not in Canada. 18:50:08 the old flaky WiFi problem :) 18:50:23 a Canadian not in Canada, fair enough 18:50:44 A Canadian not residing in Canada and not born in Canada. 18:50:57 Born to parents neither of whom was born in Canada. 18:51:02 My life is a bit confusing. 18:51:06 so many places to be in that neck of the wold 18:51:22 I'm not even in that neck of the woods. I think I'm closer to you than I am to Canada. :) 18:51:25 * ttmrichter is in China right now. 18:51:31 here in Australia, it's along way to anywhere, and we are still in Australia 18:51:48 ahh, of course, you said so the other day 18:52:14 And I was born to Canadian parents who were born German. But not born in Germany. 18:52:30 I was born a Canadian in Germany to German immigrants not born in Germany. 18:52:40 lol 18:52:51 There's a country&western song in there somewhere. 18:53:09 there sure is 18:53:40 my grandfather was German I believe, otherwise it's all English as is common here 19:01:04 ttmrichter: sprechen Sie Deutsch ? 19:01:19 nein sprechen Sie Deutsch 19:01:53 Ich kann ein bischen Deutsch sprechen, ja. 19:01:54 I only know the german I learnt watching the tv series 'combat' (with Vic Morrow) on tv as a kid 19:02:10 nice 19:02:16 Ich bin, aber, lange auÃer Ãbung. 19:02:34 now I'm lost ... 19:02:50 I can speak a little German, but I'm long out of practice. 19:03:04 I haven't had to speak the language seriously since about 1990. 19:03:09 practice would be everything with languages I expect 19:03:15 Indeed. 19:03:18 Use it or lose it. 19:03:22 yeah 19:03:27 same with programming 19:03:29 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@host214-87-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 19:03:51 I'm revisiting makefiles atm, as I prefer to use them for my projects 19:03:55 both are easy to get back though 19:04:08 much easier to get back than to learn from scratch 19:04:12 in this case the pcb for that little Forth board I hand wired 19:04:21 like riding a bike ? 19:04:44 I dunno, I've never forgotten how to ride a bike 19:04:44 ;) 19:04:59 however I have not mastered makefiles, but find them more interesting, the older I get 19:05:31 same, I ride a bike thesedays, and have a couple of motorbikes in my garage 19:05:44 plus a exercise bike upstairs 19:06:40 Yeah, this kind of stuff you never truly FORGET. 19:06:49 It just gets moved to slow-moving tertiary storage. 19:07:07 you could be saying you never learned to ride a bike ? 19:07:33 kulp: You may not forget learning how to ride a bike, but stop for ten years and try again. You'll be far less capable and far more clumsy. 19:07:42 I don't believe I forget much at all, sometimes however it takes a while to recall things 19:07:54 That's what I mean by "tertiary storage". :) 19:07:57 aha 19:08:15 Actually what's probably more like it is that you've lost the index pointers and have to do linear searches. 19:08:33 I don't have a Hackers memory tho, but would sure appreciate one 19:09:33 I watched a hacker giving a lecture once, he had a page of code on the projector and studdied it for about 30 seconds, then head down, typed it all into his pc, not looking again at the projector screen 19:09:48 that sent a shiver up my spine 19:10:07 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 19:10:08 id like a memory like that for Xmas please ? 19:10:17 That's not actually memory. 19:10:26 I could do that trick if I'm using a language I'm familiar with. 19:10:38 That's reconstruction. 19:10:44 then your brain will do me ;-) 19:10:48 You're only remembering key points. 19:11:09 The rest you're reconstructing as the inevitable structure arising from those key points. 19:11:11 memory still plays a part surely ? 19:11:23 Yes, but not in the way you're thinking. 19:11:34 it was a lot of code, I cant remember that many key points 19:11:38 For example, as a trivial illustration, picture the K&R "Hello, world!". 19:11:47 yeah, one line 19:11:54 Way more than one line. 19:12:03 #include 19:12:15 int main(int argc, char** argv) 19:12:16 { 19:12:22 depends if you use a 'Arduino' or not ;-) 19:12:27 printf("Hello, world!\n"); 19:12:28 } 19:12:34 I count five lines. 19:12:41 None of which I've memorized. 19:12:49 agreed, but you're a Hacker 19:12:53 sure you have 19:13:00 I just remembered a structure and filled in the blanks. 19:13:04 I see 5 lines you have memorised ? 19:13:08 Nope. 19:13:11 I reconstructed them. 19:13:20 ah ok 19:13:36 Hell, it's been years since I've done C "for real". 19:13:57 you still had to memorise that you needed to include stdio.h etc 19:14:15 as I said, your memory will do me :) 19:15:03 Its been a decade since I wrote any C code, and I couldnt reconstruct any of those lines which you just have 19:15:45 and I'm happy to report that the devices I built back then are still running 24/7 today 19:16:05 but youd probably vomit if you saw my code 19:16:48 Oh, give me something from my distant past (like SNOBOL4, say) and I've lost everything almost. 19:16:57 I can READ it, but I couldn't do the "copy a screen of text" gag with it. 19:17:01 I've just lost the idioms. 19:17:08 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 19:17:14 I'd have to actually copy rather than reconstruct on idioms. 19:18:16 I get your point, and see what you mean, thanks for the enlightenment 19:18:30 the Hacker was very familiar with the language etc 19:19:27 I guess in the same way, I can look at a reasonable schematic diagram and redraw it by hand using the same technique as I understand that tech so well 19:33:21 SNOBOL is another piece of technology that is forgotten for good. 19:39:20 Not yet, no. 19:39:31 But very, very close. 19:40:00 maybe he means it's a good thing it is being forgotten 19:40:14 from what I know of the language I am inclined to agree with such a sentiment 19:40:51 It still has features I wish more modern languages would adopt. 19:40:57 such as? 19:41:05 There's stuff in SNOBOL4 that could be merged into a language with a less stupid syntax. 19:41:09 Well, the whole patterns thing. 19:41:14 Far nicer to work with them than with regexps. 19:41:28 didn't those work sort of like scanf? 19:41:29 Even if you accept that strange "computational paradigm" that didn't take off there're better implementations already. 19:41:48 "everything is a string" is probably best done by Tcl 19:41:48 RodgerTheGreat: In about the same way that a teaspoon of water is sort of like the Pacific Ocean, yeah. 19:42:04 ttmrichter: very descriptive and enlightening 19:42:13 Lisp and ML folks do that for decades already when they want it. 19:42:36 RodgerTheGreat: I'm not really going to sit here and rewrite the manuals on SNOBOL4 patterns for you. 19:42:47 just give an example 19:43:02 OK, imagine if scanf could have scanf elements in it. 19:43:04 That gets closer. 19:43:04 if a feature is so interesting you should be able to make or point to some example 19:43:27 The closest modern approach to text that's like SNOBOL4 patterns is PEGs. 19:43:27 RodgerTheGreat: just read about parser combinators, 19:43:37 I'm familiar with parser combinators 19:43:47 Parser combinators are a step up from SNOBOL4 patterns. 19:43:53 SNOBOL's patterns are to parser combinators is what toy trains to real ones. 19:44:20 ok. 19:44:49 PEGs are a closer parallel to SNOBOL4 patterns than parser combinators though. 19:45:21 this seriously feels like an episode of star trek. Communication entirely via hyperbolic analogies. 19:45:36 PEGs don't allow application of functions/procedures to parts of matched text. 19:45:39 Eh? Comparing SNOBOL4 to PEGs is hyperbolic? 19:45:48 when the walls fell 19:46:16 Thus, it is slightly more powerful. 19:46:56 Now I'm not sure what you're talking about. Walls fell? 19:46:59 Are you mischanning? 19:48:03 http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Darmok_(episode) 19:48:19 Anyway, parser combinators obliterate SNOBOL4 and do that for good. 19:50:58 --- join: Quartus (~neal@CPE0022b0b24a15-CMbc1401281d20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:53:13 I'm still lost. 19:53:28 One analogy and it's a Star Trek episode. 19:54:28 * ttmrichter turns to a channel that's not a surrealism exhibition. 19:55:57 --- quit: Quartus () 19:56:16 --- join: Quartus (~neal@CPE0022b0b24a15-CMbc1401281d20.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 19:59:01 Hi ho. 20:03:39 they like Quartus in ##fpga 20:03:42 :) 20:04:19 quartus was a pretty nice PalmOS forth implementation 20:05:42 That was mine. Thanks. :) 20:07:28 cool beans 20:07:55 no java in it I hope ;-) 20:08:06 No possibility of. 20:08:22 tp: you wound me 20:09:37 RodgerTheGreat, apologies, I have absolutely no desire to wound anyone here :) 20:10:37 I'm a man of peace and sarcasm is my only offensive weapon 20:11:17 I stand before greatness in this channel, a humble electronics technician 20:11:32 I just dink around with compilers 20:11:47 and of late also PIC microcontrollers 20:12:06 Quartus, I still have a PalmVx I think it is, it refuses to die 20:12:47 I loved my palm Vx :( 20:13:04 Quartus: have you thought about open-sourcing Quartus Forth now that palm devices are largely obsolete? 20:13:07 I paid $25 for a calendaring app on it, up to that point the most I had spent on software 20:13:10 theyre truely great, mainly for what they don't have 20:13:17 and I didn't even have a life to need to calendar things :( 20:13:46 RsrcEdit was an incredibly useful utility even simply for the ability to easily beam databases between devices 20:14:13 then again, I have a Kindle 'paper white' with 3g, totally different device, but I'd really miss it if it died. 20:14:29 the day of the Vx is long gone I think 20:14:47 Rodger, not sure it's worth it. Platform's gone. 20:15:10 my Vx was connected by Jpilot and I used it as a backup of all my Linux configs for a decade at least 20:15:49 even doing a source dump on github or something would be nice for brave souls who obtain an old palm device and want to play with it 20:16:03 I'd have to publish the entire toolchain, it's custom. 20:16:09 ah 20:16:33 well I can see how that would make it more complex 20:17:07 so does this mean you wrote most of it on the device itself? 20:17:20 get this: (in a age of smartphones with 3 day battery lives) I decided to charge the PalmVx after a couple of years in a box recently, and noticed it would beep every day for some old daily appointment, so getting annoyed by the beeping, I disconnected the charger 20:17:46 Wouldn't it be easier to delete the appointment? 20:17:50 the Vx kept beeping daily for about the next 3 months .... 20:18:21 I'm not sure 20:18:43 id have to clean off all the dust to see the screen, remember how to use it, find the appointment ... 20:19:23 IMO remembering how to use it would be extremely easy 20:19:31 palmOS had a very discoverable UI 20:19:32 I hoped it would just stop in a week or so, forgetting what a long battery life they had (and the battery has to be a decade old at least) 20:19:42 excellent in-app help and consistent interface conventions 20:19:56 true, but there was a lot of dust on the screen ... 20:20:05 and I was busy ... 20:20:34 maybe I wanted to see how long the battery would last ? 20:20:44 fair enough 20:21:00 in any event, I did nothing and it stopped after about 3 months 20:21:18 which is amazing in a age of power hungry smartphones 20:21:34 it's basically wuthering heights except about palm devices 20:21:36 well if you put an iPhone in airplane mode it lasts forever too 20:21:54