00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.08 01:11:11 --- quit: zachk (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0) 02:07:03 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 02:13:58 bak, FlashForth now running on a handmade smt PIC18F24K20 board :) 02:14:27 powered by a usb-3.3v serial dongle 02:22:02 congrat :) 02:22:04 s 02:22:24 the FF author did all the hard work :) 02:22:47 but I gotta say, handwiring surface mount isnt the fun it used to be 02:23:00 haha, next unit will be a pcb 02:23:49 the board is powered of a android tablet running a nice terminal emulator, so it's easily mobile 02:24:31 i don't know much about electronics yet. 02:25:14 you'll soon learn if your doing some electronics 02:25:22 I did just pick up a book on digital circuits and VHDL though. Hoping to someday make a little processor on my fpga. 02:25:24 Yeah. :) 02:25:34 you have a fpga ? 02:25:37 I just have my hands full with sofware atm. :) 02:25:40 Yep. 02:25:56 making a processor on one is something I've never done 02:26:07 I also have a bunch of motors and other fun little things that I extracted from various printers, vcrs, microwaves... 02:26:27 but I'm a electronics tech, my software motivation is far less than my hardware motivation 02:26:46 Ah yeah. I guess I'm on the other side of the street then. :) 02:27:01 absolutely ... recycling parts is a great way to get bits easily 02:27:03 That's one thing I like about this room. You get a mix :) 02:27:32 Ive met ttmrichter, and hes software first 02:28:02 i read this book a while back: http://junkbots.solarbotics.com/ 02:28:13 spoke to RodgerThegreat earlier, he seems software first as well 02:28:54 yeah. i've been hanging out in here for a few months. there's also a pretty good mix of ages in here. 02:29:10 cool 02:29:18 Im ancient (58) 02:29:22 <- 36 02:29:50 but I've been doing electronics all my life, so Im not too far behind the tech 02:30:14 I can still hand solder surface mount for instance ;-) 02:30:29 :) 02:30:34 of course, a binocular microscope is needed thesedays 02:30:44 If I ever have to solder surface mount, I get paste and a hot air solderer. 02:30:49 and probably for most people with the really small parts 02:31:04 I want to get one of the GA144 chips hooked up to something but I'm afraid I'm going to fry it. 02:31:18 every method has it's good and bad 02:31:26 tp: I've got a friend here who hand solders surface mount, even the things like the dust particle-sized resisters. 02:31:30 So it's on hold until I have some cash coming in again. 02:31:30 I hate his guts. 02:31:31 Im from the smt industry (20 years ago) 02:31:43 hahah 02:31:51 ttmrichter, whays his age ? 02:31:54 what's 02:32:00 Mid-30s. 02:32:17 still have good eyesight for 10 years hopefully 02:32:22 mayve 15 02:32:35 Actually... In my software-trained mind, any time i see something like that that i don't want to do myself, it makes me want to build a robot to build it for me... :) 02:32:51 my eyesight was great until 45, then I needed glasses and binocular microscope for smt 02:33:02 But then I need another robot to build my first robot, so... :/ 02:33:21 sure, robots called 'pick and place' machines usually do smt assembly 02:33:44 I once ran a factory with die bonding, and pick and place machines 02:33:54 Yeah, I looked into a bunch of manufacturing techniques like that. 02:34:03 one machine, a Amistar, could place 7000 components a hour 02:34:07 I was going to start pretty simple with a cnc mill and router. 02:34:12 smt ? 慧荣? 02:34:19 surface mount tech 02:34:25 yunfan: Surface... What tp said. 02:34:30 like you see in everything thesedays 02:34:51 and some parts are about the size of a grain of sand 02:34:58 huh. 02:35:11 oop not what i knew 02:35:22 theyre smaller now than when I did it all professionally years ago 02:35:48 but the small size makes them cheap, and cheap is good 02:36:03 also makes them very reliable 02:36:48 tangentstorm, a cnc mill isnt 'pretty simple' :) 02:37:16 cheaper and better goods 02:37:25 and theyre not cheap, even the cheap cnc mills 02:38:01 but a cnc mill could be used to make a pick and place machine, but would be useless to place components itself, way too slow 02:38:33 I used to recondition and recalibrate pick and place machines, back in the day 02:39:48 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 02:39:48 tp: it's simple from my point of view: basically you have 3 motors to controll (x/y/z)... maybe a fourth control for the drill speed. 02:40:08 well maybe not 'simple' but... approachable. 02:40:13 , I looked at the GA144 doc, but it's too complicated for me, I only need a single cpu running Forth 02:40:52 my cnc mill would be a homebrew kind of thing... basically a dremel tool and a sliding table hooked up to motors 02:41:06 i think its just simple in theorty 02:41:11 tangentstorm, thats true, and in the commercial machines, those motors move the place head so fast, they could kill you if they hit you, youd never have time to move out of the way 02:41:22 like cpu making is also simple 02:41:40 it just need to draw the lines in a 2d platform 02:41:55 yunfan: I just mean that I've thought about it enough that I'm comfortable with how to build and control it... except for the actual controller for the motors. 02:41:56 they move the placement head rapidly from component feeder to pcb, often traveling a metre or so 02:42:18 tb : ahh.. :) nah, i'm talking about a little tiny thing i can make and put on a desk 02:42:24 I know :) 02:42:47 for cnc or component placement ? 02:42:55 precision is important 02:43:44 yunfan, sure, up to a point, when it comes to smt, as the solder reflow process will pull the part to the exact position required 02:44:18 there are so many factors, speed, precision, repeatability etc 02:44:47 and i guess differrent precision has differences in physical 02:44:51 just 'tuning' the component feeders to quickly deliver the part to the head is a important part 02:45:17 smt can get away with a fair bit of error, unlike a cnc miller 02:45:29 like software programmer c might get better when he knowes what extractly cpu runs those machine code and how pipeline works 02:45:39 tp: i kind of want to make a little quadcopter factory 02:45:47 and of course, theory is often hard to get right in the physical world 02:46:10 tp what could smt product? 02:46:11 tp: my first thought was to try and make the blades... 02:46:18 yunfan, yes knowledge is so important 02:46:36 tangentstorm, on a cnc router ? 02:46:44 yunfan, ? 02:47:05 i dont have experiences of hardware industry 02:47:19 tangentstorm, I think the blades are probably pressure injected ? 02:47:31 yunfan, it's a massive industry 02:48:13 after some searching got to know 02:48:57 tp: possibly carve out a mold for them.. i don't really know what i'm doing. i just think it would be fun. :) 02:48:59 lots to learn 02:49:08 seems like you need math and physical knowledges both 02:49:31 just make sure theyre well cast, a blade fluing to bits in your face wouldnt be fun 02:50:04 yeah 02:50:33 also talking about very tiny helicopters of course. but still: good point 02:50:34 does the factory use computer for simulating? 02:52:08 yunfan, I worked in that industry 20 years ago 02:52:36 tp: what did you do after that ? 02:53:46 are you a doctor or a master 02:55:16 nottwo, I'm just a electronics technician 02:55:56 who also develops small embedded stuff, but I have my own business (8 years old now) that supplies WiFI equipment 02:56:55 oh, you supply wifi equipment 02:57:14 yunfan, Ive worked in a few industries, instrumentation, industrial electronics, embedded, scientific, manufacturing, radio 02:57:38 yes, mainly Ubiquiti gear 02:57:48 plus routers etc 02:57:58 (real routers, not modems with wifi) 02:58:47 ah that's cool :) 02:59:09 These days I'd expect that you can just buy a router in a chip. :( 02:59:17 It used to take skill to make hardware. 02:59:27 Now it's LEGO. :) 02:59:33 of course you can 02:59:44 check nvidia's tegra 4i 03:00:33 in my industry, clients want actual routers in boxes, with GB ethernet ports etc, we don't manufacture, just resell 03:00:49 and they usually want configuration, etc 03:00:57 tp: Ah. I thought you actually made them as well. 03:01:04 nottwo, only resell 03:01:14 The hardware world is so depressing these days. 03:01:21 I have an STM8 chip here on an eval board. 03:01:23 I'm just a *small* business 03:01:30 yes, I recall 03:01:47 I've never seen a STM8, which sounds just as well 03:01:47 Inside the chip proper is more equipment than was on a WHOLE PC-AT EXPANSION BOARD that an old employer made. 03:01:59 STM8 is fun, but really, really weird. 03:02:04 yeah, I find that fascinating 03:02:33 I just purchased a heap of Cortex M0's in a 32 pin package 03:02:45 looking forward to using them in some products 03:03:14 do you wrinte asm for those cortex m0 ? 03:03:15 bottom end Cortex, but still far more capable than the usual 8 bit chips 03:03:37 nottwo, yunfan, I can write C but will try Forth on them 03:03:52 tp: STM32F0? 03:04:05 yes that chip support c very well 03:04:27 STM32F0s are incredibly cheap. 03:04:34 ttmrichter, doh, I'm doing it again! 03:04:40 Doing what? 03:04:56 getting the Cortex family naming wrong 03:05:19 No, there's the Cortex M- 03:05:23 Which is an ARM designation. 03:05:36 And there's the STM32F0, an STM designation. 03:05:47 ttmrichter: cheaper and better, remember what i said yesterday on welfare? 03:06:41 ttmrichter, this is the part number: STM32F051K8U6 03:06:53 tp: Nice chip. 03:06:54 its flash inside is as big as those fc familly 03:07:07 so yes, a STMF0 family, with 64k flash 03:07:08 I don't have an F0 anywhere. 03:07:15 taht's it i also have that 03:07:16 I've got F1, F2, F3 and L. 03:07:25 i got f0 discovery 03:07:26 Sorry, F1, F3, F4. 03:07:29 Not F2. 03:07:59 I bought 385 STM32F051K8U6's for my stock 03:08:08 It's a really good chip. 03:08:10 so probably a few years supply at the low rate I make up gear 03:08:13 Tiny, but very capable. 03:08:19 glad to hear it 03:08:25 Is that the one that has the built-in AES circuitry? 03:08:28 yes, tiny and cheap 03:08:39 I don't know 03:08:51 it has only the SWD pins, no jtag 03:08:51 Let me check. I've got the data sheet somewhere. 03:08:56 same 03:08:57 me too 03:10:24 Oh, the F0 is the only one I *DON'T* have a datasheet for. D'oh! 03:10:33 * ttmrichter corrects the oversight. 03:10:50 no mention of "AES" on the pdf 03:11:07 It may be the F1 series that had AES circuits. 03:11:14 http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/DM00039193.pdf 03:11:31 Core: ARM 32-bit Cortex?-M0 CPU, 03:11:31 frequency up to 48 MHz 03:12:03 Yeah, I know the part. 03:12:09 I'm in a project that's using it. :) 03:12:21 Except we're using the 48-pin quadpack. 03:12:34 UFQFPN32 32-pin package should prove interesting to solder as Ive not done one before 03:12:50 Sacrifice twice the usual number of chickens. 03:12:58 ttmrichter, excellnet 03:12:58 hahah 03:12:59 You'll need all the assistance you can get. 03:13:10 I have a few ideas :) 03:13:33 years running that smt factory exposed me to most smt issues 03:13:56 it was fairly large, we had 80 production staff and 9 engineers 03:14:38 I can delaminate a 8 layer pcb like the best of them ;-) 03:15:51 Do people even use those anymore? 03:15:59 I mean given how complete everything is in a single chip. 03:16:24 for my first proto pcb, if I have any issues soldering the central pad, I'll just drill a hole in the pcb, in the centre of the chip, and solder a wire from the central pad to the underside (groundplane) of the pcb 03:16:32 sure 03:16:34 The project I'm on is making a network monitor. Back in the days when I worked in a hardware shop that would have been a six-layer board. Now it's a two-layer. 03:17:16 I think the density of package pins is what drives the multilater now 03:17:27 Yeah, that could be. 03:17:36 but I'm not in that particular industry, so I'm only guessing 03:17:46 Or just the insanely complicated kit you can make these days. 03:17:58 look at the sheer number of pins on a Intel i7 cpu ? 03:18:12 must be 400 pins at least 03:18:33 gotta have 50 layers just to connect them all up ;-) 03:19:19 I built up a server here recently with one, the hex core version, and couldnt believe how many pins were on the *socket* 03:19:39 Yeah, CPUs are getting nuts. 03:19:45 Ironically it's not got a lot of point. 03:20:05 Software is so grossly inefficient that you don't actually get a lot more done with modern kit than I did with my 80286. 03:20:08 ttmrichter: since its has up to 8k ram and 64k flash 03:20:20 why isnt there a stm32f serial forth? 03:20:22 It looks prettier today, but in terms of actual use... 03:20:32 the connection at the base of the cpu is no longer a pin, just a tiny flat dot of copper that the springy pin in the socket presses into 03:20:40 yunfan: Don't know. 03:21:05 ttmrichter, agree 03:21:12 yunfan: just build your favorite C forth for it and you have one? 03:21:36 C Forths aren't Forth, dammit! 03:21:44 dys: i dont have favorite c forth :[ 03:21:45 * ttmrichter ← dogmatic 03:22:11 I made up a hospital 'saline fluid' bottle filling machine controller back in 1985, it used two 8085's and I programmed it in machine code, was brilliant, it filled 2500 bottles a day 03:22:41 i might try that 03:22:53 since there're even amforth for 2k ram avr 03:23:20 the other day I was looking thru the setup to get a really capable C deev environment on the ARM, and man, thats a lot of work 03:23:32 yunfan: Hang on, there's an ARM Forth you could use. 03:23:40 Google for Riscy Pygness 03:23:47 probalbly take me a day at least just to get a blinking led 03:23:53 oop i know this 03:24:10 yunfan, Riscy Pygness is very nice 03:24:21 will have a try 03:24:34 Riscy Pygness ? Pygmy Forth for the ARM Cortex: http://pygmy.utoh.org/riscy/cortex/ 03:24:44 it is not free-standing though and needs host-support when programming 03:24:52 and like all ARM stuff, it's crazy fast 03:24:57 i have checked those embeded c code for avr 03:25:03 yes, it's a 'tethered' Forth 03:25:18 its just like a mix of macro asm and c code 03:25:37 worse than use asm directly 03:25:38 dys: You can probably modify it to be free-standing. 03:25:44 only 3.5k code on the ARM, lol, and ARMS have heaps of flash 03:27:34 i hope registers could be double like mips 03:27:38 ttmrichter: wouldn't be so sure. if it doesn't have a symbolic dictionary, some mayor revisions would probably be neccessary 03:27:46 so that i could use 16 register as a cache of TOS 03:28:03 sorry its not TOS but the stack 03:30:59 yunfan: That's what I want to do with my Forth machine project. 03:31:11 Use a register window to shadow the stack in memory. 03:32:56 ttmrichter: what about your project 03:40:53 yunfan: Can't talk about it beyond this for a while. :) 03:41:03 Oh, you mean the FPGA one? 03:41:11 Still going over loads and loads and loads of documentation. 03:41:14 FPGAs are VERY new to me. 03:46:22 I've never worked with FPGA's myself 03:46:37 never had the need for speed ... 04:00:44 FPGAs are more than just speed. 04:01:11 It's more a case of flexibility than speed. 04:02:58 ok 04:03:40 some of the latest ARMs look pretty flexible to me 04:03:56 four 8Mhz bandwidth OP-AMPs on board 04:04:18 16 bit a-d's 04:04:52 one of the routers I sell uses a fpga to 'boost' speed of packets between ports 04:05:26 this enables it to do 1 million packets a second, so the sales blurb goes 04:06:01 tp: There are some ARMs sold out there with programmable logic on-chip. 04:06:14 Basically mini-FPGAs on the same die as the MCU. 04:06:21 wow 04:06:23 Because it *is* more flexible. 04:06:33 You need a bunch of AND gates? You got'em. 04:06:39 You need some shift registers? 04:06:42 they wouldnt make them if it wasnt :) 04:06:42 Here you go. 04:06:44 Etc. etc. etc. 04:07:52 personally I'm trying to escape and gates and shift resisters, I had a gut full of them back in my TTL days ;-) 04:08:13 Your ARMs are full of 'em, though. 04:08:20 thats whgat attracted me to microprocessors 04:08:21 And someday you'll find that you need just one more. 04:08:30 yeah, but I don't have to connect them up 04:08:37 For example you have X serial ports, but you want to talk to X+1 serial devices... 04:09:00 id just put in another arm at 50c ;-) 04:09:01 Do you want to go all external USART? Why? When you can just make a USART yourself. :D 04:09:10 You've got other costs there. 04:09:17 true 04:09:18 Dual processors are harder to get right. 04:09:26 It'd be so much easier to just add a USART as needed. 04:09:33 yeah, I'm being light hearted about it 04:09:35 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 04:10:37 you sound like a serious logic guy, I'm not sure I can go with you being a self confessed 'dilettante' :) 04:11:17 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 04:11:50 as a tech, I've never been into deep design with gates and PLA's, thats for properly qualified engineers in my experience 04:13:05 ttmrichter: i mean your forth machine project with register window to shadow the stack in memory 04:14:07 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-93-251.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 04:14:20 yunfan: Yeah, that's the way I plan to make tasking work. 04:14:44 The parameter stack and return stack will be registers and will be shadowed in RAM. 04:15:02 Thus a task change doesn't involve saving and restoring state, it'll just involve changing the offset of the register window. 04:29:37 her is a picture of the little forth board I handwired today :- http://www.portertech.org/test/forth-board.jpg 04:30:08 but you have to sign a NLA agreement if you view it (No Laughing Allowed) 04:32:11 cool :) 04:33:06 tp: nice job, just one minor nitpick: those long leads on the crystal... you usually save every mm possible in a crystal oscillator circuit, as those couple µW oscillating there are very susceptible to RFI. 04:33:45 true, I made them a bit long so I wouldnt have to add caps to the xtal legs :) 04:33:52 (im lazy) 04:33:55 i see :-) 04:34:12 traded extra capacitance for other horrors 04:34:43 and it's only a test board to test FlashForth on this micro 04:34:50 some µCs have built-in capacitors for the XTAL you can switch on via registers 04:35:02 thats pretty handy 04:35:14 i was suprised to see that in MSP430s 04:35:21 I'm just getting back into embedded, Im very rusty 04:36:19 I spent the last 8 years building up a WiFi supply business, and did little embedded, which is what I love doing 04:36:36 so the business is under control, and I'm easing myself back in 04:37:58 and what a lot of surprises, ARM's were not in my vocab back in 2001, I was still using PIC16F84's 04:41:43 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:42:36 and the only Forth system Id worked with was on a Rockwell 65F11 04:51:13 that pcb pic above plugs into a Android tablet, which also powers the board, here is a pic of that process : http://www.portertech.org/test/forth-board-android-term.jpg 04:55:19 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-107-8-120-203.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:10:52 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 05:24:00 --- quit: beretta (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 05:25:16 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 05:34:52 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 05:44:24 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 05:48:23 --- join: overdamped (~overdampe@unaffiliated/overdamped) joined #forth 05:48:32 Hey, at least you're using a soldering breadboard. I use a plugboard. :) 05:48:58 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Breadboard_complex.jpg 05:49:19 Interestingly the photo of a plugboard on Wikipedia exactly matches mine except mine is green backing, not blue. 05:49:38 But I'm too lazy to solder everything. 05:49:47 Or, more specifically, to UNSOLDER things afterwards. :) 06:01:39 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06:09:13 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 06:14:11 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-91-16.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:26:00 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 06:32:37 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 06:36:09 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 06:49:42 --- join: genntelman (~Incredibl@modemcable139.215-23-96.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 07:04:03 --- join: robotustra (~robotustr@cable-11.246.173-140.electronicbox.net) joined #forth 07:07:03 --- quit: genntelman (Changing host) 07:07:03 --- join: genntelman 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timeout: 264 seconds) 19:33:15 --- join: albertone (~androirc@pD9E24FF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:36:56 --- quit: TheBombMaker (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:53:34 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 20:15:50 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 20:16:17 --- quit: protist (Client Quit) 20:16:30 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 20:21:23 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 20:22:08 ttmrichter: how can you move the register window? by holding an offset on a register and do some if else job? 20:22:35 then it must be much faster to batch load ram 20:23:15 Holding an offset and having parallel circuitry that updates RAM as it gets manipulated. 20:23:40 KipIngram was explaining how it could be done. 20:25:38 It works in an FPGA because it's not just one RAM - it's a bunch of RAMs that you can use as parallel small RAMs and access all at the same time. 20:27:44 Oh, yeah, that part was probably not clear, yunfan. 20:27:53 I'm not talking about system RAM here. 20:28:07 I'm talking about the RAM blocks in the FPGA. 20:28:23 When I write the tasking system, tasks will be constrained to fit into the 8K RAM blocks of the FPGA. 20:28:41 So just by changing a register that forms the address for all those RAMs, and then using that address as though it were a register, you can change the whole register bank to a different context in one operation. 20:29:14 ttmrichter: so this approch couldnt work on common chip? 20:29:30 yunfan: You mean like an MCU? 20:29:34 No, not really. 20:29:35 By common chip you mean a processor? 20:30:08 ttmrichter: i've no idea, maybe those chip with inside addressable cache could 20:30:22 KipIngram: yep i mean like x86 arm mips avr 20:31:02 KipIngram: That reminds me, I was thinking of this little detail after you mentioned it. 20:31:48 Specifically I was thinking that I'd have one "main" task that operates conventionally out of standard external RAM and would then have special tasks injected into the FPGA's RAM blocks for multitasking. 20:31:56 Does this sound like a sane enough design or am I being stupid? 20:32:37 That sounds very good. 20:32:44 To me at least. 20:33:05 I'm even thinking a primitive priority scheme. 20:33:20 RAM block 1's task is highest priority, RAM block 2's is next highest, etc. 20:33:29 But remember - this approach still only has one task running at a time. 20:33:45 Well, yeah. It's not parallelism, it's concurrency. 20:34:55 I'm trying to mimic an RMX in operation, in effect. 20:35:08 Right down to inter-task communication only occurring through some kind of messaging pipeline. 20:35:38 I think it's a very interesting idea and deserves to be worked on. 20:35:51 If I want parallelism, I'd have multiple instances of the processor (if it fits). :D 20:36:19 Exactly. That's my approach. 20:37:01 KipIngram: so this appoch works on those mcu which mapping the registers to ram address? 20:37:13 it seems avr acting like that 20:39:31 Yes, pretty much. Except you have dedicated little bits of RAM for each register. 20:43:11 what is decicated little bits of RAM? 20:43:36 Inside the FPGA there are blocks of RAM that you can "wire into" your FPGA circuit as you see fit. 20:44:03 oop you mean FPGA 20:44:04 There's usually dozens or hundreds of them, and each is several kbits. 20:44:19 iwant to know if there're mcus that could do that 20:44:23 Yes - ttmrichter and I have been talking about implementing processors inside FPGAs. 20:44:36 None that I am aware of, but I haven't researched it per se. 20:46:29 yunfan: Several RISC processors use register windows as a concept. SPARC is the only one I know of that's commercial, though. 20:46:56 Hmmm... That reminds me, I wonder if it would be possible to take the OpenSPARC specs and make a SPARC in my little FPGA. 20:47:42 what about openrisc? 20:47:53 it even have linux kernel for it 20:50:36 Here's the thing. Soft core processors that you can by a hard core version of make sense only if you have to have the FPGA in your design anyway. 20:50:48 If so, and if there's room left over to stick your processor in there too, you save cost. 20:51:06 But you give up performance. You'll never run as fast on a soft core as you will the "real deal." 20:51:29 Now if you're crafting something entirely new for which real silicon doesn't exist, then FPGAs are your only path. 20:52:14 I can't buy a SPARC. 20:52:19 Too bloody expensive. 20:52:48 just wonder why they dont sell cheaper and more? 20:53:03 Because Sun was stupid. 20:53:04 not only sparc but ibm's power and cell 20:53:18 Sun was the Commodore of the 21st century. 20:53:21 Lots of cool ideas. 20:53:27 No marketing savvy whatsoever. 20:53:50 And now they've been bought up by Oracle who is doing its level best to obliterate everything Sun made. 20:54:00 (Made or purchased, for that matter.) 20:54:15 POWER is used all over the place. 20:54:23 Hell, STMicroelectronics has a Power line. 20:54:57 i mean the power chip that used to got 6Ghz freq 20:55:07 http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM2098/SC963 20:55:15 Oh, that's because 6GHz is insane. 20:55:20 Nobody wants it. 20:55:32 (Or, rather, close enough to nobody as to not be worth the cost of production.) 20:56:50 What I would REALLY like to see is STM making an ARM-cored MCU with some FPGA cells. 20:56:53 That would be really cool. 20:57:09 Somebody does that. 20:57:17 Hang on a sec. 20:57:24 Um... 20:57:25 Atmel? 20:57:33 Something-fusion? 20:57:51 Yeah, but I'm an STMicro fanboi. :D 20:58:02 So it would be cool if they did it. :D 20:58:04 :-) 20:58:05 well my former leader was building their arm cluster 20:58:27 he said would use thousands chip 20:58:55 but using 100m netcard to connect each other :[ 21:02:48 Yes - I think clusters are interesting, but I'm much more interested in tightly coupled, cycle synchronized parallel processors. 21:03:01 I'm interested in girls. 21:03:04 It's why I teach English. 21:03:07 * ttmrichter eyeshifts 21:03:28 ;-) 21:03:37 I'm very sure I give you a run for your money on that front... 21:03:53 I have a class of over 50 students. 21:03:59 They're all girls, 19-20. 21:04:09 Except for three boys (who for some bizarre reason are constantly absent). 21:05:01 Nice. 21:05:08 Yeah. 21:05:15 I'd prefer just a bit older, so "Dad" would be less likely to enter the picture. 21:05:30 Ah, I do this for looking, not for touching. :) 21:05:45 Well, good point. They still look awfully good at 25-ish, too. 21:05:57 I work up my appetite outdoors, but come home for dinner. :) 21:06:05 We have coop students around the office... 21:06:05 True. Some of my colleagues are in that range. 21:06:28 25-30 is an entry level teaching position in a college. 21:07:05 ttmrichter: you're lucky for went to china these days not hundred years ago :] 21:07:16 Yeah, I know. 21:07:25 Right now, too, I have two things making me happy. 21:07:37 1. Wuhan is a very hot city. This has a certain impact on clothing. 21:07:47 2. This year's fashion includes hemlines up around the neck. 21:08:36 consider you are canada, that's reasonable wuha is too hot 21:09:05 oh canadian not canada 21:24:25 http://www.pythontutor.com/visualize.html tangentstorm this is cool, i hope a web forth could do that too 21:27:05 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Quit: Leaving) 22:03:25 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:23:43 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-24-130-130-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:29:34 --- join: tp (~tp@ppp59-167-172-238.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 22:29:54 Hi tp 22:30:02 hi Backer 22:30:37 I read about your flashforth experience... 22:30:42 I was on here yesterday, but hexchat seems to have crashed (new install gentoo) 22:30:53 yes, it's going well so far 22:31:08 early days yet as Im a Forth beginner myself 22:31:44 I had it running on a 18f2553. Had some fun with an 8-bit PWM audio output... 22:31:53 Ive also been really impressed with Riscy Pygness on ARM STM32 22:31:58 ahh 22:32:27 FF seems to run on any 18F family with 16K flash or more 22:32:46 how did you load it onto the 18f2553 ? 22:32:47 FF was fast enough to play 8-bit PWM audio at high rates (streaming the audio over the USB FIFO) 22:32:55 nice 22:33:05 then again chips are getting pretty fast now 22:33:25 my last project (in C) was on a pic16F84 22:33:29 I used a PicKit 2 to program it... it's been about a year since I've played with it so I don't recall exactly. 22:33:43 ah, on windows, mac or Linux ? 22:34:02 Linux  22:34:06 :) 22:34:32 I was really surprised to see that Microchips MPLAB is now Java based with a Linux client 22:34:52 Riscy Pygness looks good. I haven't spent much time with ARM devices yet. 22:34:53 so I used that with a PICkit2 to assembleFF and load it 22:35:03 I've been hacking with PIC32s for the past year... 22:35:12 ARM are the new 10,000 pound gorilla I think 22:35:31 Yeah it's ubiquitous. 22:35:35 ahh, ok, I don't know anything about 16, oe 32 bit Pics 22:35:47 PIC32 = MIPS4K core 22:36:18 I just did a port of eForth to it (subroutine-threaded Forth). 22:36:20 I've bought a bunch of STM32F0 chips, which will arrive in a couple of days, and I'll use Riscy Pygness on them 22:36:38 so you're a software person ?> 22:36:47 Yes, and hardware dabbler. 22:37:08 Im a electronics tech, software dabbler the last 20 years ... 22:37:34 Very cool. 22:37:52 wrote my first code on a National Pace 16bit development system back in 1973, in machine code, but I havent improved much since then ;-) 22:38:19 :-) 22:38:26 so I hardware first, software last, as I'm definitely not of 'hacker class' 22:39:02 What are you using FF / pic18f for? 22:39:04 but in general I muddle by as Linux provides all the tools and tutorials I'll ever need 22:39:30 Indeed. Speaking of Gentoo, I am doing a fresh install at the moment... 22:39:43 I'm evaluating Forth for a few things. I do make and sell some small embedded control gear, and also in house testing gear 22:39:48 awesome 22:39:58 this machine is about 2 weeks old 22:40:03 gentoo wise\ 22:40:15 Oh yeah, I read that you resell Ubiquiti equipment... 22:40:19 and everything but audio is fully operational at the moment 22:40:28 I do, thats my bread and butter 22:40:51 I bought a Routerstation several years ago. Haven't used it much, though. 22:40:55 we resell, but make our money from adding value thru network designs and configs etc 22:41:11 theyre a bit dated now, I still have a few in stock 22:41:27 they were exciting at the time 22:42:14 I still have about $2000 of routerstation radio cards (G and A mode) in stock that I guess I'll never selll 22:42:28 as tech moves so quickly thesedays 22:42:35 it's all N mode now 22:42:39 They are specific to routerstation? 22:42:42 yeah 22:42:45 oh, right... 22:42:55 the large mini-pci slots 22:43:14 Hmm, well if you give me your site you may have an order coming sometime soon. :-) 22:43:30 I'm in Australia 22:43:41 Oh. ;-) 22:43:44 so that may be a bit far away 22:43:57 Right on. 22:44:01 much better prices in the USA 22:44:12 if thats where you're located 22:44:37 the aus market is enough for me 22:44:53 Indeed. So is your embedded control gear related to WISPs / routing? 22:45:29 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 22:45:49 nottwo, not at all, I just supply, config and design WiFi nets, my embedded area precedes my WiFi business 22:46:11 it's mainly sensors for industrial control, level sensing that kind of stuff 22:46:17 all niche areas 22:46:34 Gotcha. 22:46:40 Ive been doing that kind of thing since the 70's 22:47:27 bottle filling machine controllers, sheep detectors (for spraying anti fly liquids), all kinds of stuff 22:47:46 the sorts of things a one man band finds himself doing 22:47:57 how about you ? 22:48:24 btw, I'm impressed how many Linux users on here, to be expected tho I guess 22:48:58 I've been using Linux full time since 1997, havent had a windows box since then 22:49:20 That's the kind of work I'd like to do more of. I've done mostly Linux platform bringup work and packet switching software. 22:49:51 packet switching software ... thats not trivial ? 22:50:22 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 22:50:29 I used to work for a company that owned a 'protocol conversion' company, and they were always busy writing software 22:51:08 No not trivial. This was all fast path code; you breathe and it slows down... 22:51:18 your beginning to develop a techies love of hardware design and application ? 22:51:24 eww 22:52:04 we now have a 3 port router from Ubiquiti, it runs embedded debian, and Vyatta 22:52:23 I suppose you could say that. But I've never really designed a board of my own. (Just wire-wrapped... ;-) 22:52:39 they claim 1million packets a second between ports using a specialist ASIC 22:52:55 wire wrapping really sucks! 22:53:15 did you see my out of focus pic of the forth pcb Ive made ? 22:53:29 Very interesting. I suppose that's minimum size packets and with no features in the forwarding path... 22:53:32 it wasnt wrapped, but I use wire wrapping wire and hand solder it 22:53:41 I didn't see it. 22:53:46 yes, I think you're right 22:53:53 I don't mind wire-wrapping so much, probably because I've only done rather small projects. 22:54:04 it's horrible, really :) 22:54:24 I *liked* wire wrap. 22:54:33 We added instructions to the Interdata Model 70 because of wire wrap. Couldn't do that with IC. 22:54:43 http://www.portertech.org/test/forth-board.jpg 22:54:43 The largest of which is a PIC32MX795H SMT soldered to a w-w carrier board, with a 24-bit DAC, SD card, UART and audio clock generator. 22:54:56 that's the board, took me all day to make under a microscope 22:55:31 ttmrichter, we had to use women to do wire wrap (back in the 70's) as men made to many errors 22:55:48 Backer, nice 22:55:59 Oh, the wire wrapping we did was, like, eight posts' worth. :) 22:56:06 I wouldn't want to assemble a whole core wire-wrapped! 22:56:16 Backer, I guess what Im getting at, is that doing a pcb will seem like heaven to you after wire wrap 22:56:17 s/core/CPU core/ 22:56:26 Nor would I want to string core memory. 22:56:39 tp: Looks good! How long did it take to make it? 22:56:46 the boards we did back then had around 300 pins and 3-4 connections per pin 22:57:13 it's pretty crappy actually, it was a saturday project for me, and took around 5 hrs I guess 22:57:32 Why did you use solderboard instead of plugboard? 22:57:45 Im 58yo and have to take of glasses to look thru the binocular microscope to solder, put glasses back on to look at board etc 22:57:49 * ttmrichter keeps seeing all the solderboards at the market and wonders who uses them and why. 22:58:09 Those PIC parts are likely available in PDIP packages. 22:58:34 I like in a rural town in New South Wales, Australia, and the solderboard is the latest tech available her 22:58:36 here 22:59:18 yeah, I wanted SMT for the pcb I'm making up next, the wiring job was just a 'quick' test of FF and the chip, lol 22:59:20 Really? I was using plugboard twenty years ago! :-o 22:59:29 yep 22:59:35 this is australia 22:59:43 You should take a trip to a bigger city and hit an electronics market. :) 22:59:52 ttmrichter: it seems those mcu's sram's accessing speed is just like register 23:00:14 yunfan: Internal or external SRAM? 23:00:14 stmf051r8t6 said its sram is cpu clock speed and 0 wait 23:00:20 internal 23:00:28 If it's internal, the registers are probably IMPLEMENTED in the SRAM. 23:00:30 Two Americans arrived at the Perth Airport and as the plane taxied to a stop, one said to another "have you set your watch for Australai", the other answered 'yep, Ive set it back 10 years" 23:00:32 I did a quick bring up of a PIC32MX250 on plugboard, running my bare-metal eForth port. 23:00:35 so dont need register shadow :] 23:00:52 it s has 8k sram very huge :] 23:01:05 Well that doesn't help because you don't have programmatic access to the registers. 23:01:17 You can't quickly swap out all the registers in a single block operation. 23:01:33 but why you need to swap them? 23:01:33 Backer, so are you about to do a pcb under Linux ? 23:01:45 since its accessing speed is equal to register accessing 23:01:58 Backer, I recommend, gschem and PCB, they work really well together 23:02:01 One block operation will be faster than 32 word operations. 23:02:19 tp: I have a ways to go before I'm ready to define a board... 23:02:31 aha 23:02:35 I'll keep that in mind. Are they open-source? 23:02:50 definitely, it's all I use 23:02:57 i doubt you need some if else operate when you use register window 23:03:15 Backer, geda-gschem is a LOT like the old Orcad to use 23:03:30 the old pre windows Orcad 23:03:49 in other words, geda-gschem is *fast* 23:04:14 How is the documentation? 23:04:23 http://www.geda-project.org/ 23:04:25 awesome 23:05:04 it's all netlists, rubberbanding, drc, back-anno etc 23:05:52 --- join: ASau` (~user@p4FF9605D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:06:00 if someone gave me a windows box and protel, and said 'design a pcb or we kill you', Id reply 'shoot me now' 23:06:04 tp: Have you done any HDL or FPGA work? 23:06:11 no never 23:06:46 I'm a really small one man band, industrial electronics, mainly instrumentation 23:06:54 when it comes to micros 23:07:25 library part generation can be really easy in Gschem also 23:07:53 here is a small example of my Pickit2 header part 23:08:44 [labels] 23:08:45 TTL-232R-3V3 23:08:45 refdes=CON? 23:08:45 ! copryright=2013 TJPORTER 23:08:45 ! author=TJPORTER 23:08:45 ! uselicense=unlimited 23:08:47 ! distlicense=GPLV3 23:08:49 ! device=TTL-232R-3V3 23:08:50 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:08:51 ! description=serial cable header 23:08:53 ! footprint=SIL6 23:08:55 [left] 23:08:57 1 GND-BLACK 23:08:59 2 CTS-BROWN 23:09:03 3 VCC-RED 23:09:05 4 TX-DATA-ORANGE 23:09:07 5 RX-DATA-YELLOW 23:09:09 6 RTS-GREEN 23:09:11 that gets turned into a part with a small Perl script 23:09:17 no footprint etc 23:15:03 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 23:15:38 here is an example of a gschem output, it's my little Forth pcb discussed above 23:15:41 http://www.portertech.org/test/PIC18F24K20-ISO-Forth-pcb.png 23:17:09 Yeah, I need to get on that. I'm still using hand-drawn schematics. 23:17:17 ouch 23:17:35 if youve ever used Orcad, you'll love Gschem 23:18:15 brb, trying to figure out how my gentoo kernel config got clobbered... 23:18:18 best of all, the part library has a lot of parts, but you can create parts really easily 23:18:25 eww, understan! 23:19:27 a "make mrproper" will delete the /usr/src/linux/.config file 23:29:49 and here is a pic, of the end result of one of my pcb's using my workflow of Gschem-->PCB-->Laser printer printed artwork--->hand etched pcb 23:30:30 http://www.portertech.org/test/fb-02-tp.jpg 23:30:48 this is a home made pcb ... 23:31:25 What kind of transfer paper did you use? 23:31:33 none 23:31:46 it's a direct laser to 'drafting film' print 23:32:01 How does that work? 23:32:07 I use two prints, one over the other to remove 'pinholes' 23:32:28 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 23:32:29 I print the artwork, 1:1 onto drafting film 23:32:43 print two prints 23:32:57 align the prints to overlap exactly 23:33:27 then use the resultant two sheet artwork, to cover a sensitised pcb in my lightbox 23:33:51 then expose, develop and etch the usual way 23:34:04 the secret is to use drafting film 23:34:14 Are they photosensitive copper clad boards? 23:34:23 it's a ground plastic, and doesnt slip in the printer 23:34:37 yes, photosensitive copper clad boards 23:35:25 I've used spray on resist, precoated, and tomorrow, I'll try laminator applied resist sheet onto bare copper 23:35:45 as soon as I finish the artwork in PCB 23:36:33 then we can compare my 'before' (the hand wired board) to the 'after', a gschem->pcb etched pcb 23:37:32 I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison, zooming in on the features... 23:37:51 (of the different etching processes, that is) 23:38:51 Time for me to hit the sack. Thanks for sharing the photos - I'll check back in to see how it's going later... 23:39:10 no worries 23:39:16 thanks for the chat 23:40:15 Check out some of the eForth stuff on offete.com. He may have a port to STM32. There is one for Atmel SAM7 (ARM7TDMI)... 23:40:51 I will, thanks 23:41:19 Also look into PIC32MX150/250 in 28-pin DIP package. I hope to release my eForth for it within the coming weeks (depending on other workload...) 23:41:45 wow 23:41:46 I would very much like to make it as functional as FlashForth. 23:42:05 thats fabulous 23:42:20 Forth is really getting some exposure it seems 23:42:52 Maybe so. Great for these kinds of MCUs... 23:43:08 Anyhow, be well and catch you soon. 23:43:49 you bet 23:43:56 you too! 23:58:37 --- quit: robotustra (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.06.08