00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.04.18
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19:16:24 <mark4> i hate c. i hate C on a pic24f more
19:20:36 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
19:20:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I can only imagine
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20:43:01 <yunfan> i hope there're a site for forther just like codepen.io
20:48:23 <tangentstorm> why not make one, yunfan?
20:48:49 <RodgerTheGreat> well, http://repl.it/ has a forth interpreter
20:49:09 <RodgerTheGreat> and there's also forth haiku: http://forthsalon.appspot.com/
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20:50:49 <tangentstorm> there's also that rainbow forth app
20:51:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I haven't heard of that
20:51:07 <RodgerTheGreat> link?
20:51:38 <tangentstorm> i haven't heard of either of the ones you linked either... forthsalon is cool :)
20:52:09 <tangentstorm> https://appengine.google.com/_ah/loginform?state=AJKiYcGGOJfVKO3n0a-0QvOg9Df5hJ15LEInPLwY5c3n--0-nD3lN1xY4tj8YHRkPFwVqnxUAIoW8BI1quoztHmaOXsxDbxHwdyzHwVDhL6KpOAd73VIkl1X5ss7ax4aLb630K7hKyGRs17XhasWAS2ITMWgVXnIagyGUB36j9P6k5anmL5lgCxdGE-4qWx1oyp11gu8EhOh4d_hHrEACApGLVA1MWtgDzha7jQhonN04WEFPITOqsZBN1fedxyP4AHI3x4LTffxX4Pb7yEW0UBMduoSbyPjGYF4OBXrfuGNha_NDdxcQGLusBWAQ77NjvsIjRYmp-9N7UTaeMqDZp6TG0SraCBC3A
20:52:11 <tangentstorm> 8lMOWd8hlxaLvCBZu1vjCnntZMuRiX3mX8e0nbwqyivKm3UUkS3Mv4YlPjIKlqSlkEbqXYgbQiM-QI2Mem8gBKIcFbvv8LT12hciBNq1rbeO554iGSXCfQSEcNFor45Yt5SzAXia6u450OzGnGRYgK1cX3t1bvS3Tqez9Z5uQnlUEdsx1y77ej1V-ruhUZtDkMd9CiHB-dSAS9liQBu34
20:52:15 <tangentstorm> ick!
20:52:21 <tangentstorm> http://rainbowforth.appspot.com/
20:52:21 <RodgerTheGreat> erm
20:53:02 <tangentstorm> http://rainbowforth.sourceforge.net/ has the project itself.. 
20:53:10 <tangentstorm> little presentation from that page: http://rainbowforth.appspot.com/view?start=300&end=315&
20:53:24 <tangentstorm> <sorry for that, btw>
20:54:21 <tangentstorm> i kind of like his slideshow... i think he actually used rainbowforth and just took pictures :)
20:54:40 <RodgerTheGreat> that looks pretty cool
20:54:44 <jdavidboyd> could you post that link for rainbowforth again please, hit the wrong keys and emptied my buffer
20:55:28 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rainbowforth.appspot.com/view?start=300&end=315&
20:55:36 <RodgerTheGreat> and http://rainbowforth.sourceforge.net/
20:56:15 <jdavidboyd> thanks!
20:56:32 <yunfan> i know forth salon that cool
20:56:49 <yunfan> if it could add support with sound just like BINIZ that would be better
20:57:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's IBNIZ
20:57:27 <yunfan> yes that is it
20:57:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I could in theory make a JS port of MakoVM/Maker
20:58:00 <yunfan> codepen could support people fork
20:58:24 <yunfan> this is good for people sharing experiences
20:58:46 <yunfan> and i think its split arch could make it easier if you want to pack those js to an app
21:02:18 <yunfan> i hope crc could improve the js version of retro since they already have canvas support
21:03:39 * tangentstorm has been working on ngaro-js
21:03:44 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. Actually I really just need to port MakoVM to JS- then you could run ForthWarrior, which has a self-contained forth environment
21:03:52 <tangentstorm> Yeah!
21:04:10 <tangentstorm> but port it to coffeescript or typescript instead :)
21:04:21 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentstorm: by all means go ahead
21:04:22 <tangentstorm> hey wait
21:04:25 <tangentstorm> hrmm
21:04:31 <RodgerTheGreat> mako is like 200 lines of java
21:04:38 <RodgerTheGreat> and very easy to port
21:04:42 <tangentstorm> processingjs will translate it to javascript already.
21:04:58 <yunfan> ngaro porting is easier, even i could wrote an py version
21:04:58 <tangentstorm> not sure if it only works for processing or not.
21:05:12 <tangentstorm> there's already a ngaro.py
21:05:28 <yunfan> you need to add device supporting , that's  the point
21:05:39 <RodgerTheGreat> you'll need to tweak it to work with the processing graphics functions
21:05:43 <RodgerTheGreat> but that wouldn't be terrible
21:05:53 <RodgerTheGreat> seriously, take an afternoon and give it a shot
21:06:14 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/src/MakoVM.java
21:06:26 <yunfan> BTW, tangentstorm i have an idea to teach forth in visual way
21:06:27 <tangentstorm> RodgerTheGreat: i didn't realize it was that small. i've looked at the code but i guess i didn't know how much else was java.
21:06:30 <RodgerTheGreat> and if you aren't supporting file IO or audio you can get rid of like half of that
21:06:46 <tangentstorm> oh yeah, yunfan?
21:06:53 <RodgerTheGreat> basically the file I linked is everything important
21:07:25 <RodgerTheGreat> then there's another file which just defines constants and a third file which is about another 200 lines of UI glue (spawning the window, loading rom files, key input, etc)
21:07:28 <yunfan> tangentstorm: we could let the dictionary visitable, and dragable on your mobile screen or web brownser interface
21:07:38 <tangentstorm> RodgerTheGreat: i've been messing with the ANTLR4 grammar examples for java... was planning to try and translate to pascal.
21:07:42 <RodgerTheGreat> mako is very small and simple
21:07:50 <yunfan> tangentstorm: and beginner wrote code by drag those defined word to currentline
21:08:26 <tangentstorm> (like automatically translate my game library, probably using perl6... )
21:08:42 <yunfan> so that the interactive turtorail could got know if reader do right on excersise
21:08:57 <tangentstorm> maybe i'll prototype the conversion process using mako. :)
21:09:15 <tangentstorm> yunfan: check out the parable user interface
21:09:36 <tangentstorm> parable i's crc's other language. he does all his work on an ipad, so it's very tablet friendly
21:09:39 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i have suggested that to crc too :]
21:10:42 <yunfan> and i suggest that he could add auto completation so that touch screen user wont need to type more on their screen
21:10:51 <tangentstorm> http://rx-core.org/parable/
21:11:20 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentstorm: if you rip out the optional stuff aside from keyboard input (necessary for ForthWarrior) you basically are left with this: http://hastebin.com/yunokiqufu.java
21:11:23 <RodgerTheGreat> 138 lines
21:11:25 <yunfan> and if you are typing word not define it, what you use is exists word and number, so that philosophy could work
21:12:19 <RodgerTheGreat> then just blit the framebuffer it computes to the screen at 60hz and feed key characters and cursor events to it and you're gold
21:12:21 <tangentstorm> yunfan : if you want to do this i'd be happy to help
21:12:37 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i just wonder my forth knowledges
21:12:58 <yunfan> i dont worry about my js because jquery is always helps
21:13:16 <tangentstorm> yunfan: well, that's what we're here for. :)
21:13:22 <yunfan> anyway will try
21:13:30 <tangentstorm> awesome. :)
21:15:01 <tangentstorm> RodgerTheGreat: Ok. I am on the case. :)
21:15:38 <RodgerTheGreat> and loading mako roms is easy: they're just bytes for a memory image. All processor state is in the image.
21:16:28 <yunfan> RodgerTheGreat: how do you alloc space for the dual stack?
21:16:39 <yunfan> compare to cells
21:16:40 <RodgerTheGreat> they're allocated inside the memory image
21:16:50 <RodgerTheGreat> mako's memory is totally static
21:17:03 <yunfan> ok, just like my little vm
21:17:23 <RodgerTheGreat> what is nice about this arrangement is that since the stack pointers are in main memory you can just remap the stacks to wherever you want
21:17:33 <RodgerTheGreat> you can resize them for different tasks or change them on the fly
21:18:10 <yunfan> yes , i have thought it , when on mips cpu, you could use the extra registers not like c
21:18:23 <yunfan> on arm too :]
21:19:33 <yunfan> but on memory, is it would break the cache line when push data to stack?
21:19:48 <tangentstorm> what about the instruction pointer?
21:20:04 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentstorm: also in main memory
21:20:10 <tangentstorm> nice!
21:20:12 <RodgerTheGreat> all registers are in main memory
21:20:40 <RodgerTheGreat> PC/DP/RP are the really important ones and then there are a couple more for the graphics system and other IO functions
21:21:00 <yunfan> then how to improve performances on morden pipelined cpu?
21:21:54 <RodgerTheGreat> mako was designed first and foremost to be small and easy to port. I really wasn't at all concerned with efficiency. As it so happens it plays with JITs quite nicely.
21:22:29 <RodgerTheGreat> a friend of mine did some microbenchmarks and for simple tasks a forth program running on mako can be like 10 times faster than Ruby
21:22:35 <RodgerTheGreat> so I'd say it's "fast enough"
21:22:38 <tangentstorm> :)
21:22:47 <tangentstorm> yeah your games are very responsive
21:23:16 <RodgerTheGreat> when I wrote the first pong demo I was sweating bullets the whole time over every instruction because I had no idea how fast the system would actually be
21:23:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought I'd have a budget of a couple hundred cycles/frame
21:24:00 <RodgerTheGreat> as it turns out even low-end machines I've tested can handle 60,000 cycles/frame without breaking a sweat
21:24:24 <RodgerTheGreat> and that's with the reference implementation in Java- a buddy of mine made a hacked-up heavily tuned C implementation that's about 3x as fast
21:25:58 <RodgerTheGreat> those speed concerns were a big part of how mako's graphics subsystem was designed- you basically twiddle some global data structures which control rendering. If you don't touch anything, sprites stay where they are and so on- no racing the beam or "active rendering". This means that for mostly static scenes mako doesn't have to do much work at all.
21:26:26 <RodgerTheGreat> idle loops of a couple hundred operations (or even just four or five in some cases) are common
21:26:54 <tangentstorm> this shouldn't be too hard to plun into retroterm.
21:27:06 <RodgerTheGreat> ?
21:27:16 <tangentstorm> plug :)
21:27:19 <tangentstorm> plug into
21:27:31 <RodgerTheGreat> uh you mean a mako implementation?
21:27:34 <tangentstorm> retroterm being the thing i've been working on.
21:27:36 <tangentstorm> yeah.
21:27:39 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
21:41:21 <dto> hi.
21:41:28 <RodgerTheGreat> hi dto 
21:41:35 <dto> whats been up?
21:41:56 <RodgerTheGreat> made a chip8 interpreter, then a language targeting it and now I have written a game using that
21:42:08 <dto> wow.
21:42:13 <dto> whats the game? 
21:43:18 <RodgerTheGreat> do you remember "Deep"?
21:44:52 <dto> yes.
21:45:07 <RodgerTheGreat> well now it looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/fjSF9lY.png
21:45:09 <dto> the sort of mashup of Dolphin and Kaboom
21:45:21 <dto> nice, 
21:45:29 <dto> thats in a new Forth?
21:45:41 <RodgerTheGreat> not truly a forth, sadly.
21:45:49 <RodgerTheGreat> the chip8 is too limited
21:46:07 <RodgerTheGreat> the language is a high-level assembler I call Octo: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/demos/Chip8/Deep8.8o
21:46:21 <RodgerTheGreat> it's at least somewhat forthy
21:47:36 <dto> it's similar to reading your other source. nice.
21:48:03 <RodgerTheGreat> the syntax is very close to my forth dialect and I naturally use the same formatting conventions
21:48:29 <RodgerTheGreat> it doesn't compose as nicely as forth but I'm fairly pleased with it
21:48:38 <RodgerTheGreat> what have you been up to?
21:49:17 <yunfan> http://codepen.io/FWeinb/pen/JjBhk  this little game is interesting
21:49:17 <dto> well,
21:49:44 <dto> i've finished 2x0ng 1.0 and released it. 
21:50:03 <dto> and made some animated gifs for promo material for Desura, i'm talking to them about a free release on their platform
21:50:12 <dto> listening to the new daft punk song that just came out at midnight
21:51:59 <RodgerTheGreat> me too
21:52:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I think their next album is going to be Discovery-quality
21:52:14 <dto> oh yah? 
21:52:22 <dto> i listened the tron soundtrack to death
21:53:18 <dto> did you see the SNL video clip
21:53:23 <dto> with the sparklies
21:54:47 <RodgerTheGreat> no
21:56:12 <dto> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMJwcOiBoZE
21:56:44 <RodgerTheGreat> oh yeah
21:56:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I didn't know that had anything to do with SNL
21:57:39 <dto> i guess that was the premier and there've been fake leaks of a "real " version using just clips from this vid
21:57:46 <dto> premiere*
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