00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.04.03 00:09:20 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 00:12:58 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 00:29:28 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.112) joined #forth 00:49:54 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 00:57:16 --- join: _spt_ (~steven@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 01:08:10 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 01:37:04 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 01:40:34 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 02:03:53 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 02:24:29 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:26:15 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 02:33:44 --- quit: Eth|cal (Remote host closed the connection) 02:35:57 --- join: Eth|cal (~sam@ppp59-167-172-238.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 02:37:32 --- quit: Eth|cal (Remote host closed the connection) 02:37:57 --- join: Eth|cal (~sam@ppp59-167-172-238.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 03:16:12 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 03:28:45 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 03:29:26 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 03:31:30 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 03:33:57 --- quit: cataska (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:14:38 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Quit: Leaving) 04:38:13 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 07:04:44 --- quit: lazyden (Quit: lazyden) 07:10:16 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:15:00 --- join: jdavidboyd (~user@72.185.97.240) joined #forth 08:01:54 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 08:09:52 --- join: kumool (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:12:38 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 08:46:25 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 08:57:35 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 09:07:55 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 09:13:40 --- quit: Nobody_1707 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:13:53 --- join: Nobody_1707 (~Nobody_17@68-112-212-130.dhcp.slid.la.charter.com) joined #forth 09:37:05 --- join: ASau (~user@46.115.43.245) joined #forth 10:02:50 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:05:41 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:07:08 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:12:27 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@87.115.210.249) joined #forth 10:16:12 --- join: kumool (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:17:24 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:50:54 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:52:16 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 10:55:56 --- join: kumool (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:57:53 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 11:05:10 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-161-22.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 11:06:39 --- join: impomatic (~digital_w@87.115.210.249) joined #forth 11:32:04 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 11:32:52 --- nick: kulp -> `` 11:48:01 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 12:05:36 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:07:51 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:10:28 --- join: kumool (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:12:25 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:24:55 --- join: em22_ (~em22@50-47-2-7.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 12:28:11 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 12:28:14 --- join: crcx (~crcx@li125-93.members.linode.com) joined #forth 12:39:07 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.112) joined #forth 12:40:59 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:42:50 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 13:02:05 --- nick: `` -> kulp 13:15:32 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 13:22:16 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 13:22:33 --- quit: djinni_ (Read error: Operation timed out) 13:26:35 --- join: djinni (~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com) joined #forth 13:28:34 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 14:01:13 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:06:35 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:11:13 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: impomatic) 15:36:53 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:02:27 I'm a bit surprized that VFX Forth can't optimize the IF out of: TEST 0 0= IF CR ." Testing..." THEN ; 16:02:49 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16:18:06 neither does Gforth 16:18:10 so... 16:27:35 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:49:04 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16:52:12 because to do that kind of optimization requires multipass and deep level evaluation. it would have to know in advance with the purpose of IF is, and this is somewhat counter to the FORTH philosophy. yes, it could be done, but you do not necessarily want to do it... 16:56:22 --- join: lazyden (~lazyden@58.185.121.38) joined #forth 17:01:33 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@97-83-152-225.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) joined #forth 17:02:23 I've looked at greenarraychips several times and I just can't wrap my brain around it... how do you do anything useful with only 144 cells of memory (or whatever the number very small number is). sure youve got lots of cpus but each cpu appears to be too limited to be able to do anything? what am I missing? 17:03:00 think of the F18 cores as functions in a dataflow pipeline 17:03:24 64 words isn't enough for a program, but it's enough for a few functions 17:03:55 you can stream data from one element to another or do gather/fanout easily 17:04:40 each core is meant to be doing some simple transformation on a continuous stream of data 17:05:02 well, thats hardly seems even enough instructions to enable it to decide which other cpus to talk to much less to do anything. 17:05:17 you can fit four instructions per word 17:05:39 and the cores have an additional 64 word rom preprogrammed with utility routines 17:05:50 --- quit: john_metcalf (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:05:56 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@87.115.210.249) joined #forth 17:06:26 talking to other CPUs is easy since it's basically "write a bitmask to a register, then write to/read from a register" 17:06:58 hmm, so you basically dedicate one cpu per WORD of your program? 17:07:14 the equivalent of a handful of forth words yeah 17:07:43 think about how much you can do in a "block" of normal forth code 17:08:06 some tasks will take a couple of cores working together 17:08:34 the ways that the cores communicate make it fairly easy for a core to act like just a memory buffer for an adjacent core for example 17:09:27 but communication is simple and efficient, and the individual cores are blazing fast 17:09:46 so again if you're operating on a continuous stream of data it actually works quite well 17:10:07 what about the stack and program counter? how would that work? 17:10:53 f18 cores have hardware stacks, a program counter, two address registers and an IO register which are separate from their 64 word memory 17:11:15 if I recall correctly the data stack is 10 deep and the rstack is 8 or something like that 17:11:23 and they're cyclic 17:12:03 okay... yeah... it's been awhile since Ive studied the specs. 10 deep for data is pretty limiting. 17:12:17 not too bad really 17:12:40 you don't need a very deep stack unless you're operating on doubles or doing recursion or something 17:12:50 and the address registers remove a bit of pressure 17:13:12 have you written any programs for the f18? 17:13:33 I built a simple softsim and did some simple programming for it 17:13:50 nothing terribly impressive but I have a feel for the architecture 17:13:57 COOL! is that the sim they have on their website? 17:14:37 oh, no- I wrote my own 17:14:52 just worked from the F18 databook 17:15:13 very impressive 17:15:34 it's a very simple CPU 17:16:31 FORTH requires a different way of thinking about programming.... and the F18 requires a different way of thinking about FORTH.... 17:16:47 I would agree with that 17:17:04 Im having trouble conceptualizing how I would layout a program for the F18 17:17:45 well, are you familiar with lazy evaluation in functional languages? 17:19:57 Ive studied a few examples, my general impression of Functional Programming is... to quote Knuth, never write the most clever program possible, because in order to debug it you have to be more clever than the program, and my impression of functional programming is that debugging it would be a nightmare, so I have generally avoided it. 17:20:42 how do you approach the F18? 17:21:18 I don't really see where you're getting that. Functional programming is simply programming that emphasizes the use of pure functions (without side effects) and minimizing mutable data. 17:21:41 idiomatic forth is not terribly different from this philosophy 17:22:31 well maybe Im getting it confused with something else. 17:23:01 you can write in a functional style without using Haskell 17:25:24 here: this is the kind of stuff I associate with Functional Programming, I find it to be totally obtuse: "fibonacci2 = 0:1:zipwith (+) fibonacci2 (tail fibonacci2)" 17:27:42 and same in javascript :) http://wtfjs.com/2013/02/12/obfuscated-fibonacci 17:27:42 if you tried something like that on the F18 you would overflow your stack after only a couple of iterations. but with that code you don't even get a clue about the stack use. 17:30:44 --- quit: lazyden (Quit: lazyden) 17:31:14 Vuokko: ha ha ha... yeah but that is deliberately obfuscated, whereas the Functional Programming example is intended to be clear... but still reads poorly. 17:33:01 RodgerTheGreat: you say that you have only written "simple programs" in it.... so, does that mean it is difficult to use for complex programs? or just that you lost interest? 17:33:53 more the latter 17:34:14 I don't have any applications that particularly need it and I've been busy with other projects 17:34:39 That is a big problem with new toys. 17:34:57 I have also dev board and I've tested it works 17:36:24 but Chuck's app notes give quite nice idea how to use GA144 17:36:57 --- join: lazyden (~lazyden@58.185.121.38) joined #forth 17:38:37 any practical experience? what's it like to write an app that actually does something... i.e. disk/network/user interaction... 17:39:25 I want to like this chip, I really do, but it just seems so crippled by the limited amount of memory available. 18:10:32 --- quit: em22_ (Quit: Leaving) 18:13:15 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 18:13:48 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:21:23 --- quit: lazyden (Quit: lazyden) 18:26:25 --- quit: jdavidboyd (Remote host closed the connection) 18:36:16 --- join: kumul (~mool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:13:04 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 21:15:56 --- join: Adeon_ (~makrillit@109.73.169.52) joined #forth 21:16:47 --- join: goingretro2 (~kbmaniac@host86-182-38-135.range86-182.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 21:16:51 --- quit: Adeon (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:16:51 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 21:16:51 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 21:18:00 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 21:21:13 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 21:26:57 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 22:22:10 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 22:37:36 --- join: Vuokko_ (vuolasah@mustatilhi.cs.tut.fi) joined #forth 22:38:23 --- quit: Vuokko (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 22:39:31 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 23:31:41 --- quit: zeiris (Quit: segfault) 23:44:06 --- quit: Adeon_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 23:45:10 --- join: Adeon (~makrillit@109.73.169.52) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.04.03