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01:49:30 <ttmrichter> Has anybody here used the G144 chips in anger yet?
01:51:12 <tangentstorm> only the sim :)
01:51:48 <ttmrichter> What's the barrier to using the real thing?
01:57:01 <tangentstorm> i've never soldered anything before, and I don't want to spend $35 on a chip+board i'm probably going to destroy my first try :)
01:58:17 <ttmrichter> How would you go about destroying a chip+board?!  :-o
01:58:21 <tangentstorm> not to mention designing and building/breadboarding a circuit to let me talk to a computer
01:58:40 <ttmrichter> Well, the EVB001 (or whatever) is just a USB link away.
01:58:59 <tangentstorm> their eval board?
01:59:03 <ttmrichter> Yes.
01:59:10 <tangentstorm> well /that/ is like $500
01:59:24 <ttmrichter> So what's the price point of interest for a board like that?
01:59:26 <tangentstorm> which i do not currently have :)
03:01:22 <tangentstorm> i don't know. i'm basically in startup mode, so i don't have an income at the moment... and since i also don't really have time to learn to do anything with it... I really don't know.
03:02:55 <tangentstorm> I asked a while back about having the company that makes the little qfn boards wire it up to a cheap old-school parallel port adapter, but i don't think he took me very seriously.
03:03:36 <tangentstorm> I asked in here and the consensus seemed to be that people would probably be willing to spring ~ $40 on something like a greenarray arduino.
03:03:51 <tangentstorm> like assuming they could hook it up to a pc and a breadboard
03:04:42 <tangentstorm> schmartboard is the name of the company.
03:05:10 <tangentstorm> the schmartboard guy said he might build a circuit if he had maybe 20+ orders or so.
03:05:18 <tangentstorm> pre-orders
03:05:34 <tangentstorm> but he said the damand wasn't there, from his point of view.
03:05:46 <tangentstorm> ... that's all i know. :)
03:07:08 <tangentstorm> oh except I sort of assume his price would be > $40 since his boards + a chip un-assembled are already $35.
03:35:44 <ttmrichter> OK, thanks for the data point.
03:35:59 <ttmrichter> I'm looking at the possibility of producing that eval board for about $100.
03:36:10 <ttmrichter> (The full-blown thing; a complete clone.)
03:36:33 <ttmrichter> And for making something along the lines of the ST*-Discovery boards for a price point of about $30-40.
03:39:25 <tangentstorm> in bulk?
03:44:16 <ttmrichter> Retail.
03:44:42 <ttmrichter> You buy 1, you pay $30-$40.
03:44:42 <tangentstorm> but you could manufacture them in bulk? 
03:44:53 <tangentstorm> ttmrichter: because I think I could sell quite a few of them if they existed :)
03:44:56 <ttmrichter> I could manufacture them anywhere from small batches (of like 10) to hundreds.
03:45:05 <ttmrichter> In the short term.
03:45:18 <ttmrichter> If there's long-term interest I could start assembly of batches of thousands.
03:45:43 * ttmrichter is winding down a hardware project right now and looking around for another.
03:45:48 <tangentstorm> where are you again? china?
03:46:04 <ttmrichter> Since I'm interested in the GA144s, it occurred to me that a "GA144-Discovery" board would be cool.
03:46:05 <ttmrichter> Yes.
03:47:00 <tangentstorm> I may have to talk to you about a keyboard down the line. :)
03:47:27 <ttmrichter> I'm not living where that kind of stuff is easily found.  I'd have to be down Shenzhen-ways or possibly Shanghai for that kind of kit.
03:47:42 <ttmrichter> Ironically it's easier for me to make custom kit than it is for me to get pre-fabbed kit of interest.  :-S
03:51:40 <tangentstorm> I couldn't move more than a handful today. Probably all to people in this chat room, so I'd be kind of useless... But I had wanted to do something like this down the line in conjunction with my programming course
03:53:11 <ttmrichter> A handful is enough for this to be worthwhile (if only so that I can have my own GA144-Discovery board.  :D)
03:53:24 <ttmrichter> Basically, if I can sell 10, it's worth embarking on making the GA144-Discovery.
03:53:41 <ttmrichter> If I can sell 20 of the full-blown eval kit clone, it's worth embarking.
03:53:52 <ttmrichter> (Those are my estimated break-even points.)
03:57:45 <tangentstorm> i think there were maybe 4 people who said they'd buy one around the $30-$40 range when i asked here and in #retro. plus me. :) but that was just throwing it out once in chat. i'm sure if we asked on comp.lang.forth that would turn up some sales too.
03:59:58 <tangentstorm> but of course those were all tenative, if-it-ever-actually-gets-made-i'd-/probably/-buy-one-but-only-if-it-is-cool kinds of responses :)
04:00:45 <ttmrichter> Well, if you look up STMicroelectronics' "Discovery" line of eval boards (particularly things like the STM32L-Discovery or the STM32F4Discovery) you'll see what I'm targeting as the hobbyist toy.
04:01:45 <tangentstorm> yeah i'm looking at it now
04:02:40 <ttmrichter> The STM32L board, for example, has a touch sensor, a couple of user buttons, an LCD line display and, of course, every damned pin exposed for external use.
04:03:21 <ttmrichter> The STM32F4 board has a 3D accelerometer, a MEMS microphone, audio drivers and a few user LEDs.
04:03:30 <ttmrichter> As well as USB-OTG.
04:05:11 <tangentstorm> I know the parallel port is hopelessly slow and out of date compared to USB, but that would still be my #1 request.
04:05:34 <ttmrichter> That isn't going to happen for sure.  But ... if you have all the GPIO pins available it's trivial to drive one of those yourself.
04:05:36 <tangentstorm> though it should be easy enough to hook that up through the breadboard holes here
04:07:30 <tangentstorm> hmm. i bet i could get someone to just make breadboard with a pre-mounted clasp for one of those usb->parallel cables.
04:13:10 <tangentstorm> although... i bet making a modern 32 or 64 bit version of a parallel port wouldn't be all that hard either.
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04:37:57 <protist> hey :)
04:38:18 <tangentstorm> hey protist :)
04:38:25 <protist> just got my dad's old calculator...it has an OS written in a stack-based language...and it is programmable
04:38:50 <protist> it uses RPL ("reverse polish lisp")...it is like a FORTH variant :)
04:38:55 <protist> tangentstorm: how goes it?
04:39:26 * tangentstorm is writing a B+ tree in retroforth, or at least trying to...
04:39:47 <protist> B+ tree?
04:41:12 <protist> i think this RPL could offer some interesting ideas...it is odd
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04:42:01 <tangentstorm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPL_(programming_language) yeah... actually looks a lot like what i had in mind for my language... like a forth with algol-style keywords
04:42:08 <ttmrichter> tangentstorm: Why would you *want* to make a 32-bit or 64-bit parallel port?
04:42:19 <ttmrichter> There's actually a reason why we moved away from parallel to serial ports.
04:42:46 <tangentstorm> ttmrichter: what i really want is to be able to control a bunch of individual pins directly just by writing a word to ram.
04:43:05 * ttmrichter is baffled.
04:43:11 <ttmrichter> So you want ... bog-standard GPIO.
04:43:22 <tangentstorm> yeah
04:43:37 <ttmrichter> I mean my STM8L-Discovery board has  ... I think it's 56 pins exposed.
04:43:52 <ttmrichter> And the GPIO pins are in one or two RAM locations, if memory serves.
04:43:56 <ttmrichter> (I'll have to double check.)
04:43:57 <tangentstorm> how much does it cost?
04:44:06 <ttmrichter> About 10 euros last I heard.
04:44:59 <ttmrichter> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/STM8L-DISCOVERY/497-10660-ND/2352524
04:45:04 <tangentstorm> hrm. ~ $13 but the best i could find online here was > $20 or $30, whereas the parallel port one is about $7
04:45:05 <ttmrichter> Less than I thought. US$9.9
04:45:10 <tangentstorm> perhaps i just suck at searching.
04:45:39 <ttmrichter> The STM32L-Discovery is http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=STM32L-Discovery for $10.5
04:45:59 <ttmrichter> http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=STM32F4Discovery  $15
04:46:09 <ttmrichter> That's the one with the 3D accelerometer, etc.
04:47:27 <ttmrichter> In general the STM*-Discovery boards range from about US$8 to US$15 at DigiKey.
04:49:07 <tangentstorm> so i can control those pins from a pc, for talking to other devices?
04:49:23 <ttmrichter> You control them from the embedded processor.
04:49:41 <tangentstorm> that's not what i want
04:49:48 <tangentstorm> but perhaps what i want is stupid. let me think. :)
04:49:50 <ttmrichter> What do you want instead?
04:52:15 <tangentstorm> i want a cheap cable coming out of my pc that has some pins that i can flip on and off to communicate with whatever random thing i want to connect it to
04:52:45 <tangentstorm> it can be usb on the pc side but on the other side it should be either pins or holes
04:53:34 <ttmrichter> That's easy enough to make.  I'd be surprised if there wasn't something like that already there.
04:53:37 <tangentstorm> and if i send the binary value 00001111  then i want the left 4 pins to be off and the right 4 pins to be on
04:53:53 <tangentstorm> there is! :)
04:54:18 <tangentstorm> http://compare.ebay.com/like/150938418139?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
04:54:19 <tangentstorm> $3
04:54:41 <tangentstorm> actually i don't know anything about that one in particular
04:54:55 <ttmrichter> You'd have to be careful that it's not trying to be too smart.
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04:56:42 <tangentstorm> i just remember in high school we had a project where a friend of mine and i were controlling motors. he did all the circuit stuff and i wrote the code in turbo pascal... and i could just write a value to the parallel port and the pins would fire.
04:57:25 <tangentstorm> whatever the modern equivalent of that is, without having to write a bunch of lines of usb-interface code, is what i want :)
04:58:32 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/tangentstorm/silverware/blob/master/work/step1.pas
04:59:22 <tangentstorm> line 23 there:  port[ 888 ] := value  was all it took, and i could move two stepper motors around :)
04:59:44 <tangentstorm> the rest of that code is all UI basically
05:18:29 <tangentstorm> my friend must have built something like this on the hardware side: http://www.linux-cae.net/Projects/Parallel.OLD.ERASE/Dage/parport.html#test
05:28:45 <JDat> http://www.linux-cae.net/Projects/Parallel.OLD.ERASE/Dage/parport.html#test
05:28:56 <JDat> this schematic...
05:29:24 <JDat> are you shure that this schematic is correct?
05:29:48 <JDat> 8 inputs on standard LPT?
05:30:18 <JDat> on standard LPT there are 8+6 outputs and 5 inputs
05:34:03 <tangentstorm> JDat: i'm not sure of anything about that stuff. my friend/lab partner in high school built something and plugged it into a parallel port.
05:34:23 <tangentstorm> that page is just something i found while googling just now.
05:35:14 <tangentstorm> i was doing the software side of it. all i know is i could write software that let me press buttons on the keyboard and motors would move :)
05:35:31 <JDat> well
05:35:42 <JDat> I am QBASIC programmer :D
05:36:00 <JDat> I made software to test NES gamepad with parallel port
05:36:05 <tangentstorm> This guy has a USB + microcontroller 8-bit gpio that he says you can make for around $18 http://www.jenrathbun.com/Electronics/?page_id=759
05:36:15 <tangentstorm> oh yeah? :)
05:36:35 <JDat> also i connected FDD and tested signal lines to verify that FDD is working...
05:37:27 <JDat> regarding 8-bit GPIO...
05:38:07 <JDat> I prefear to use FT245RL IC. no programming. no special LIBS. just use as standard serial prot from software POV
05:38:45 <ttmrichter> I can REALLY undercut that $18!  :-o
05:38:51 <ttmrichter> Seriously, $18 for that?!   Is he insane?
05:39:30 <tangentstorm> that's just the kit
05:39:48 <ttmrichter> As in not even assembled?
05:40:02 <JDat> ttmrichter: it handmade. no problems about 18$. Yes, china can give much cheaper solutions
05:40:05 <tangentstorm> i don't think it's a commercial venture
05:40:24 <ttmrichter> tangentstorm: I can undercut that buying a SINGLE PROTOTYPE, fully-assembled.
05:40:25 <tangentstorm> looks like something he just did for fun.
05:40:26 <JDat> tangentstorm: I agree. it's not commercial
05:40:44 <ttmrichter> As in, not in bulk.  One PC board made and populated for me.
05:40:58 <tangentstorm> cool :)
05:41:11 <ttmrichter> I'm at the point of discovering, I think, why nobody manufactures high tech in North America anymore.
05:41:13 <ttmrichter> Man!
05:41:40 * ttmrichter has a homemade USB«-»Serial converter that cost about $5.
05:41:49 <JDat> I can purchase assembled FT245RL module for 4-8$ un ebay
05:41:52 <ttmrichter> It's the only one in the world.  :)
05:42:36 <JDat> ttmrichter: FT232RL ir cool ir You need USB<=>serial for arduino, etc. also 4-8$...
05:42:37 <ttmrichter> I had it made because I needed a "console" for my STM8 forth.
05:43:06 <ttmrichter> JDat: You're missing the point here.  This is 100% custom hardware; not mass-produced and sold.
05:43:10 <ttmrichter> I had *one* made.
05:43:12 <ttmrichter> That's it.
05:43:29 <ttmrichter> It's just that cheap to make custom hardware.
05:43:43 <tangentstorm> yeah you couldn't pay a middle school kid $5 to build that for you here :)
05:43:52 <ttmrichter> Now to be fair if I had to pay the designer that cost would go up.
05:43:57 <ttmrichter> Probably to double.
05:44:03 <tangentstorm> :)
05:44:25 <ttmrichter> (I've got my hardware go-to guy who does this for fun, you see.  So the board layout and circuit design gets done for free.)
05:44:54 <ttmrichter> I should just go into business.  "Have designer, will travel.  Custom hardware for cheaper than you'd think."
05:45:29 <tangentstorm> my electronics knowledge is rather lacking. i can figure out conceptually what i want and the basic idea of how logic flows through the circuit, but i wouldn't know how to put it together or how to figure out what sorts of resistors or whatever i need to not melt everything.
05:45:36 <tangentstorm> yeah
05:46:13 <tangentstorm> i'd like to learn all that, but like for the greenarray chip... i don't really want to hook it up to anything. i just want to program it.
05:46:33 <ttmrichter> Well that's why I want to make a "GA144-Discovery" board.
05:46:37 <tangentstorm> or rather i don't really want to hook it up to anything except the pc.
05:46:52 <tangentstorm> yeah i think that's a cool idea.
05:46:52 <ttmrichter> A board with the GA144 and a couple of little goo-gahs so you can do fun things with it out of the box.
05:47:52 <tangentstorm> with the ga144, you can just send code to be executed directly in real time
05:48:07 <ttmrichter> What kinds of things would you like to see in a "GA144-Discovery" board?
05:48:18 <ttmrichter> A few LEDs, obviously, and a few user switches.
05:48:19 <ttmrichter> What else?
05:48:32 <ttmrichter> (Assume that all IO pins will be exposed.)
05:48:56 <tangentstorm> so if i had the pc hooked up to that port, and then a bunch of those gpio pins hooked up to the chip then that's pretty much all i'd want.
05:49:50 <tangentstorm> i might use it to program arduinos or drive motors directly.
05:50:08 <tangentstorm> some kind of storage thing would be nice
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05:50:36 <tangentstorm> doesn't have to be anything fancy... just enough that you could power it on and off and it would remember
05:53:24 <tangentstorm> if/when i have time to learn this stuff i want to make a cnc lathe and milling machine, and maybe some small quadrocoptors
05:55:09 <ttmrichter> All the I/O pins would be exposed.
05:55:14 <ttmrichter> (I think the GA144 has 25 of them?)
05:55:25 <tangentstorm> i think it's like 80...
05:55:41 <ttmrichter> I don't think so.  It's an 88-pin package.  :)
05:55:49 <ttmrichter> And there's special purpose pins, I'm positive.
05:56:19 <tangentstorm> yeah but they're all io pins
05:56:44 <ttmrichter> Not all of them are going to be usefully exposed, however.
05:56:46 <tangentstorm> the individual processors are just programmed differently
05:57:23 <tangentstorm> but you don't really need 88 pins on a breadboarding style setup
05:57:44 <ttmrichter> But basically, if I go through with the project (and it's quite possible that should be s/if/when/ the way things are going), any usefully-exposed pin will be exposed on the eval board.
05:57:46 <tangentstorm> because how much junk can you even fit on your table? :)
05:58:21 <ttmrichter> And any pins tied up for the on-board capabilities (LEDs, displays, touch sensors, MEMS sensors, whatever) will be easily disabled.
05:59:08 <ttmrichter> (As for how much I can fit, I have a single breadboard complex that could cope with a whole lot more than 88 pins…
05:59:28 <tangentstorm> :)
06:00:12 <tangentstorm> I guess I'm not really an electronics hobbyist.. More like I just want to program machines.
06:00:32 <ttmrichter> Same here, actually.  I just want to program them to do fun things.
06:01:25 <ttmrichter> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Breadboard_complex.jpg
06:01:33 <ttmrichter> My breadboard complex is almost EXACTLY the same as that one.
06:01:50 <ttmrichter> And judging by the way he's wired the power strips, even the internal layout is identical on the weirder parts.
06:02:07 <ttmrichter> (The only visible difference I can see is that his board is blue while mine is green.  :)
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06:02:39 <tangentstorm> scary
06:03:51 <ttmrichter> Scary part is this: I'm not the hardware guy in this weird little partnership.
06:03:55 <ttmrichter> I'm the software guy…
06:04:28 <tangentstorm> :)
06:06:07 <tangentstorm> so like... the other thing i'd want to do is to have something super tiny, like one of those schmartboard mountings.
06:06:32 <JDat> well
06:06:50 <JDat> I am Hardwire guy! How can I help You? :D
06:06:54 <tangentstorm> like chip + board + holes + tiny bit of flash ram or something + little solar cell
06:07:53 <tangentstorm> if i had some of those, i would plug them into this discovery board, and program them and have them save the code on the ram
06:08:03 <JDat> wat will happen with your board in darkness? :D
06:08:25 <tangentstorm> i don't know. run off a battery or something?
06:09:08 <tangentstorm> but then i could program the thing and move it away from the computer and have it control something else.
06:10:02 <tangentstorm> something else being a little helicopter or a toy car or whatever
06:10:17 <tangentstorm> lawn mower. i don't know. :)
06:11:24 <ttmrichter> JDat: I've got a hardware guy down the road from me about 2 minutes' walk away.  That's why I'm getting all this stuff done now.  :)
06:12:08 <ttmrichter> tangentstorm: I've got mail in to my hardware guy, BTW, for estimating the cost of making that USB GPIO thing.
06:12:17 <ttmrichter> I'll get back to you with an estimate.
06:12:19 <tangentstorm> awesome! :)
06:12:43 <ttmrichter> (The estimate may be "I've already got some made" BTW.  This guy has loads of weird home-made kit.)
06:13:55 <tangentstorm> for the lathe and the mill, i'd want to be able to control up to 3 motors, and i'd want to be able to network them somehow
06:14:12 <tangentstorm> even if it's just daisy-chaining two of the discovery boards together
06:14:41 <tangentstorm> because they'd be fairly large things, like maybe the size of laser printers
06:16:26 <tangentstorm> if that gpio thing could hook into a phone or something that would rock too
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06:17:35 <tangentstorm> then i would just mount the cheapest android smartphone i could find to the thing and have the phone talk to the ga144, and the ga144 drive all the motors
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06:18:08 <tangentstorm> and then the machines would just communicate with my pc over wifi
06:18:29 <ttmrichter> Well if your phone has USB-OTG, then chances are you could control the USB-GPIO.
06:18:36 <tangentstorm> but the usb port on the phone is probably also the power 
06:18:37 <ttmrichter> Some drivers would have to be written, of coursre.
06:19:02 <tangentstorm> yeah, but drivers are easy for me :)
06:21:36 <tangentstorm> i probably wouldn't even solder all this stuff. just have a breadboard inside the mill with a cover or something.
06:21:46 * tangentstorm is a dork.
06:25:33 <tangentstorm> anway, enough of my rambling. ttmrichter, thanks for asking him... and if/when i can afford your board, i'm in. :)
06:25:42 <tangentstorm> meanwhile, i'm going to sleep. see you guys.
06:33:29 <ttmrichter> Catch you later.
06:33:37 * ttmrichter really wonders what the market potential for "have designer, will travel" could be.
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14:01:58 <Onionnion> What are some projects a beginner could attempt with Forth?
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14:23:53 <stairmast0r> what's the advantage of forth over any other language?
14:36:53 <Onionnion> stairmast0r, very tiny and efficient, yet potentially very powerful when used properly
14:37:45 <stairmast0r> Onionnion: i see
14:38:02 <stairmast0r> well, it's on my list of languages to learn :)
14:38:32 <Onionnion> It can be confusing to understand this at first, but with time it shows you a whole new way of how to design code that will help in other languages
14:38:40 <Onionnion> It really forces you to learn how to factor
14:39:03 <Onionnion> Check out http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/sf1/sf1.html and https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/games/Warrior2
14:40:55 <Onionnion> here's my current WIP for it https://gist.github.com/Onionnion/5014701 still gotta do walking
14:43:30 <Guest88525> i was thinking of doing whack a mole, still havent gotten to it though
14:43:54 <Onionnion> With graphics?
14:46:32 <Guest88525> na, thats just too much work
14:46:58 <Onionnion> not necessarily if you use something like Factor or Mako
14:52:29 <Guest88525> mm its still more work than on cli i think
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15:04:16 <Onionnion> kumul, be proud of me
15:04:21 <Onionnion> I am Forthing
15:05:18 <kumul> i wish i could, there are no decent forth's around for windows, which is why i stopped
15:06:14 <Onionnion> what?
15:06:24 <Onionnion> win32forth is good, or whatever it's called
15:06:52 <Onionnion> yeah Win32 Forth http://win32forth.sourceforge.net/
15:10:42 <kumul> its broken on windows 7 it seems
15:15:40 <Onionnion> worked fine for me
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15:25:26 <kumul> ill have to retry again i guess
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15:42:06 <DocPlatypus> what's wrong with GNU Forth on Windows?
15:42:42 <kumul> there's a binary available?
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16:25:15 <DocPlatypus> pretty sure there is at least for 0.6.2 32-bit
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20:24:52 <yunfan> win32 forth is cool, i know a chinese programming language use it for the base
20:25:09 <yunfan> i hope there is a android forth just like win32 forth does on the platform
20:27:40 <tangentstorm> there is a new release of retro for android.. that brings us up to 3 implementations
20:28:02 <ttmrichter> tangentstorm: I got a price quote on your USB to GPIO thing.
20:28:10 <tangentstorm> oh? :)
20:28:16 <ttmrichter> I can get 'em made for about $3-4.
20:28:36 <tangentstorm> 8 pins?
20:28:50 <ttmrichter> Pretty much cloning that one linked to earlier.
20:29:01 <ttmrichter> http://www.jenrathbun.com/Electronics/?page_id=759
20:29:03 <ttmrichter> That one.
20:30:11 <ttmrichter> This is one of the weird cases where making one would cost me about the same as making ten of them.
20:31:11 <tangentstorm> what about actually getting them around the world though?
20:31:22 <ttmrichter> That's obviously going to add costs.
20:31:41 <ttmrichter> It'll still be less than the $18 cited.  :)
20:31:57 <ttmrichter> Oh, and it's apparently 12-pin.
20:32:48 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i mean like win32 forth has some GUI and win32 api  invoking
20:35:30 <tangentstorm> yeah, i see 12 pins but he calls it 8 bit. i guess 4 are for control.
20:36:40 <ttmrichter> Two grounds, VCC and USBVCC.
20:38:15 <tangentstorm> anyway, yeah. sign me up. can i get 4? :) I could use some advice on how to go about hooking them up to things.
20:40:01 <tangentstorm> yunfan: yeah. for that we'll need java... or maybe just build up from dalvik bytecode...
20:40:19 <tangentstorm> wordcode i guess
20:40:45 <yunfan> tangentstorm: yep, i have looked dalvik's documents
20:41:08 <yunfan> its ugly compared to other general vm
20:41:42 <yunfan> btw, i read a article yesterday about debuging microcode using forth
20:41:46 <yunfan> at 80s
20:42:17 <tangentstorm> 80s?
20:42:49 <tangentstorm> like from the 1980's?
20:42:50 <yunfan> http://alanwinfield.blogspot.com/2013/03/extreme-debugging-tale-of-microcode-and.html
20:42:58 <yunfan> at 1980s 
20:43:00 <tangentstorm> alan winfield is the man
20:43:07 <tangentstorm> he's cool.
20:43:35 <ttmrichter> tangentstorm:  http://www.jenrathbun.com/Electronics/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/USBGPIO-Proto.mp4
20:43:39 <tangentstorm> he wrote a pascal compiler in forth that i've been working on
20:44:01 <yunfan> and from the comments, there's also other people using it , then why there's so less people here?
20:44:27 <yunfan> tangentstorm: but your projects said it use freepascal
20:46:48 <tangentstorm> yunfan: haha. awesome article. thanks. yes, i use freepascal for my port of retro.
20:47:09 <tangentstorm> but there is also a pascal written in forth (by alan winfield) that i'm trying to port to retro
20:48:26 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/ref/winfield-pascal-83.org  ... i re-typed most of his 2 articles. the pdfs are on his site or on my twitter somewhere ... don't have the links handy.
20:49:08 <yunfan> tangentstorm: a question, does classic forth vm has the primitive words for direct memory accessing?
20:49:17 <tangentstorm> trying to find something to open the mp4 file, ttmrichter ...
20:49:27 <tangentstorm> @ and ! ? yeah
20:49:57 <yunfan> then what's  the difference between the c model i read from CSAPP?
20:50:13 <yunfan> it also have a global stack which you put params on that
20:50:44 <tangentstorm> i don't know what csapp is
20:50:47 <yunfan> and you need to require heap alloc if you want to store mass data
20:51:03 <tangentstorm> but in general, c has one stack
20:51:06 <tangentstorm> forth has 2
20:51:19 <tangentstorm> did you see my pascal code for emptyforth?
20:51:28 <yunfan> its a book Computer Systems: A Programmer's Perspective http://csapp.cs.cmu.edu/
20:51:40 <yunfan> nope
20:52:29 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/go/empty.pas
20:53:03 <tangentstorm> you might notice that in the list of procedure declarations at the the top, i hardly have any parameters
20:53:19 <tangentstorm> only pushdat() and pushret() , which are for pushing literal numbers to the data and return stacks.
20:53:34 <yunfan> oops pascal code is so clear
20:53:53 <tangentstorm> only lookup and default_number return values, because i use those for "if" statements
20:53:58 <tangentstorm> haha i think so too :)
20:54:38 <tangentstorm> since none of these functions take parameters, the only way they can communicate is through the stack or through global variables
20:55:07 <tangentstorm> but there are basically three stacks in this program.
20:55:29 <tangentstorm> the data stack and the return stack, which are inside the "ram" array
20:55:50 <tangentstorm> and then there's the invisible stack that pascal uses for control flow when one function calls another
20:55:57 <tangentstorm> c does the same thing
20:56:21 <yunfan> then is there any forth impl that could let use spawn a new forth instanse in runtime? i see the thread model is just like a forth vm
20:56:27 <tangentstorm> in c and pascal, the parameters that get passed around are also on this invisible stack.
20:56:42 <tangentstorm> yes
20:56:46 <yunfan> by thread i mean the system thread or process
20:56:50 <tangentstorm> yes
20:57:25 <tangentstorm> in fact, many of the early forth systems were multi-user
20:57:38 <tangentstorm> because you had lots of people on terminals sharing one giant computer
20:58:05 <tangentstorm> each user has their own data and return stacks and their own special custom dictionary.
20:58:34 <tangentstorm> RodgerTheGreat mentioned that mako can do things like this too.
20:58:58 <yunfan> ok
20:59:07 <tangentstorm> in fact, that's one big difference between retro and mako. in retro, there are only the two stacks, but in mako, he maintains the stack inside the ram so he can switch between them.
20:59:37 <tangentstorm> although you can make your own stacks in retro too... it's just an array and and a number to indicate the height after all :)
20:59:40 <tangentstorm> did that answer your question?
20:59:42 <yunfan> i prefer the mako way
20:59:57 <yunfan> yes, it did answered :]
21:00:01 <RodgerTheGreat> makes it easier to save and restore memory images, too
21:00:11 <RodgerTheGreat> since "main memory" contains all program state
21:00:28 <yunfan> not only easy to manipulate but it could corresponding to the cache line
21:01:13 <tangentstorm> yeah you can save the entire state of the system, even if it's inside a procedure or something. retro can't do that unless you implement an extension in the host language... at least not without a lot of work to inspect the two stacks
21:02:11 <tangentstorm> yunfan: yeah you're right. (and btw, i've been considering your comment about 4k blocks and am kind of leaning that way now)
21:02:17 <yunfan> tangentstorm: you said there's a new retro impl for android, can i have a look ?
21:04:22 <yunfan> tangentstorm: if you want to improve performancess on your js impl, maybe you could have a look at mozilla's asm.js draft  http://asmjs.org/spec/latest/
21:04:29 <tangentstorm> yeah just open google play. it's free. i used the one marked beta from march 3
21:04:54 <yunfan> but is it still using webkit to including a js impl?
21:05:12 <tangentstorm> yeah
21:05:17 <tangentstorm> it's just updated to 11.5
21:07:45 <yunfan> then i dont have interesting to try that, for native forth , we have a forth impl from leo for people learning forth on android device
21:08:11 <tangentstorm> ok :)
21:08:47 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i used to limited my minds on forth to just use stack, but your answer open my minds :]
21:13:20 <tangentstorm> yunfan: check out these words then:   r>   r@    >r  
21:13:25 <tangentstorm> might be @r
21:13:59 <yunfan> isnt they stack manipulate on return stack?
21:14:08 <RodgerTheGreat> yep
21:14:58 <tangentstorm> you can use them to get stuff out of the way
21:15:01 <tangentstorm> but also...
21:15:26 <RodgerTheGreat> also you can do stupid tricks like : goto r> drop >r ;
21:15:28 <tangentstorm> is  [']  the word that loads the address of another word?
21:15:37 <RodgerTheGreat> depends on the context
21:15:44 <yunfan> aha
21:15:50 <tangentstorm> : ['] something ; 
21:16:02 <tangentstorm> : ['] >r something ; 
21:16:08 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i heard you are developing js impl forth for education?
21:16:20 <tangentstorm> : ['] something >r ;     or something ilke that... i don't have a real forth
21:16:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I made an educational forth built into a video game
21:17:21 <tangentstorm> in retro you would say     : ` something push ; and when it encountered the ; it would run "something"
21:17:28 <yunfan> i have a suggestion , to make the stack manipualtion visual
21:17:31 <tangentstorm> except i forgot to name that.
21:17:48 * tangentstorm fails at writing forth examples today :)
21:17:59 <yunfan> like you could use canvas to show the two stack
21:18:01 <RodgerTheGreat> some forths print the stack every time you enter a line of code
21:18:20 <tangentstorm> yunfan: yeah i have a whole little game worked out where you would see numbers stacked up and have to re-arrange them
21:18:28 <yunfan> when child type 1 2 3 , the visual effects on data stack would show on the canvas
21:18:54 <tangentstorm> yeah i hacked the retroforth prompt to also show the stack at every line, and use red for errors and turn the 'ok' green.
21:19:03 <tangentstorm> you can see it if you type "q" in the minesweepr game
21:19:44 <tangentstorm> yunfan: yeah :) i plan to make it kind of like a puzzle game, with animations and stuff. that's what those square tiles i posted are for.
21:19:56 <RodgerTheGreat> also the Factor listener does a pretty good job of visualizing stack contents
21:20:08 <yunfan> i am going to have my lunch 
21:20:17 <ttmrichter> Factor is a *great* "higher level Forth" environment.
21:20:35 <tangentstorm> http://games.tangentcode.com/mineswpr/  <- type "q" and space to see colored prompt/etc. type very slow though or it locks up
21:20:56 <RodgerTheGreat> ttmrichter: it's good stuff, but unfortunately not very beginner-friendly
21:21:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Factor needs an equivalent of Java's Processing
21:21:13 <tangentstorm> cat :)
21:21:19 <RodgerTheGreat> "Factoring" is a pretty natural name
21:21:30 <ttmrichter> Or just a manual that doesn't assume you already know things.  :)
21:21:32 <tangentstorm> ha. cute.
21:24:29 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night all
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21:25:47 <tangentstorm> seeya
21:25:49 <tangentstorm> oh
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21:40:08 <tangentstorm> ttmrichter: just got the video to play. yeah, that's what i'm talking about :)
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21:43:40 <tangentstorm> when i said hooking it up to things, it's the voltages and whatnot i'm worried about. last time i tried to make a circuit, i blew out the LED. i get that i needed a resistor and i know the formulas for resistance and whatnot but... i guess i don't know how to identify the ranges for individual components.
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