00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.02.08
00:00:12 <newcup> that's an interesting idea
00:01:19 <tangentstorm> started after reading martin fowler's book "refactoring", and daniel quinn's "ishmael"
00:07:35 <tangentstorm> anyway, i'm out.have a good day/night everybody.
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00:07:50 <newcup> thanks, tangentstorm! I'll have to take some time and study this stuff...
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02:04:51 <snowrichard> hello
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13:31:01 <RodgerTheGreat> what's goin' on, everybody?
13:36:25 <avoscadeaux> waiting to go home from work :)
13:36:33 <avoscadeaux> yourself ?
13:36:35 <RodgerTheGreat> way ahead of you
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13:36:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I had another goofy idea for a video game
13:37:11 <avoscadeaux> do tell
13:37:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've outdone myself on designing a puzzle game that only four or five people on earth could play
13:37:21 <RodgerTheGreat> "F18 Combat Simulator"
13:37:35 <RodgerTheGreat> it would be sort of like corewars except on a virtual GA144
13:38:00 <RodgerTheGreat> and rather than trying to overwrite or crash enemy programs the goal is to play "capture the flag"
13:38:19 <RodgerTheGreat> you start on corners of the chip and near the opposing team there is an IO port
13:38:35 <RodgerTheGreat> if you read from it, you'll get a machine word ("the flag")
13:38:46 <RodgerTheGreat> if you write that word to your own IO port ("the goal")
13:38:48 <RodgerTheGreat> you score
13:39:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and if you write something else to your goal it'll block for a while
13:39:33 <RodgerTheGreat> avoscadeaux: thoughts
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13:41:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I think this would be an interesting context within which to tackle and get used to the strange and powerful potential the chip has for self-modifying code
13:41:39 <avoscadeaux> haha wow
13:41:53 <RodgerTheGreat> also I think the title is amusingly misleading
13:42:03 <avoscadeaux> yeah i don't get it
13:42:32 <RodgerTheGreat> well there's a plane called the F18: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet
13:42:33 <avoscadeaux> i've never played corewars but i eventually want to implement one on my chip
13:42:35 <avoscadeaux> right
13:42:41 <avoscadeaux> i don't see how it's connected
13:42:48 <RodgerTheGreat> but individual cores on a GA144 are also called F18s
13:42:56 <RodgerTheGreat> in that case because they are 18-bit forth machines
13:43:03 <avoscadeaux> oho
13:43:24 <avoscadeaux> is there a GA144 simulator already
13:43:33 <RodgerTheGreat> there is, but it's part of colorforth
13:43:37 <avoscadeaux> i would imagine such a thing would be a huge boon for the developers so it either should or does
13:43:40 <avoscadeaux> ah
13:43:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking about writing my own
13:43:48 <avoscadeaux> ambitious
13:43:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I have written a (buggy) simulator for a single F18 core before
13:44:00 <avoscadeaux> then again if the cores are simple enough it might not be that hard
13:44:08 <RodgerTheGreat> and they do have very good docs available
13:44:10 <avoscadeaux> i don't really know anything about the architecture
13:44:13 <avoscadeaux> except broad strokes
13:44:20 <RodgerTheGreat> basically you have a grid of F18s
13:44:34 <RodgerTheGreat> they can handshake with their neighbors
13:44:40 <RodgerTheGreat> otherwise they are clockless
13:44:49 <avoscadeaux> yeah
13:44:54 <RodgerTheGreat> F18s on the edges communicate with IO devices
13:45:15 <RodgerTheGreat> individual cores have 64 words of ram and 64 words of rom
13:45:28 <avoscadeaux> words being 18 bits wide ?
13:45:34 <RodgerTheGreat> machine words are 18 bits and the instruction encoding allows up to four instructions per word
13:45:43 <avoscadeaux> isn't it like bundles of words in 18 bits like 5 5 5 3 or something
13:45:47 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
13:45:54 <avoscadeaux> err bundles of instructions
13:46:01 <RodgerTheGreat> the last slot can only hold a subset of the opcode list
13:46:11 <avoscadeaux> yeah i remember reading that now, i guess i read more than i thought
13:46:22 <RodgerTheGreat> then it has a 10(?) word pstack and 8(?) word rstack
13:46:24 <avoscadeaux> i wish i knew how to program the thing
13:46:28 <avoscadeaux> then again so does everyone
13:46:28 <avoscadeaux> ;)
13:46:29 <RodgerTheGreat> that are cyclic
13:46:48 <tangentstorm> take the course, avoscadeaux 
13:46:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I get the impression they are internally shift registers
13:47:19 <avoscadeaux> tangentstorm: good idea, but really what i mean is that i wish i knew how to think about concurrency
13:47:36 <RodgerTheGreat> two registers which are for memory ops and a third for controlling the IO ports
13:47:37 <avoscadeaux> i've managed to remain single-threaded my whole (short) career so far, with very minor exceptions
13:47:42 <tangentstorm> http://school.arrayforth.com/
13:48:01 <avoscadeaux> intersting
13:48:05 <avoscadeaux> interesting, too.
13:48:05 <tangentstorm> you've never written a shell script with a pipe?
13:48:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it has a neat instruction for doing a "microloop" where you loop over the instructions in a single machine word
13:48:21 <RodgerTheGreat> that's pretty much the F18
13:48:32 <RodgerTheGreat> modulo some strange little details here and there
13:48:34 <avoscadeaux> i'm attracted by its bareness
13:48:47 <avoscadeaux> spareness, rather
13:49:03 <tangentstorm> the code you write on those chips are all pretty much single threaded... just running on multiple machines
13:49:21 <avoscadeaux> well sure
13:49:24 <tangentstorm> you don't have the locking problems you get with threads
13:49:32 <avoscadeaux> i shouldn't put it in the same class as data-sharing threads
13:49:48 <avoscadeaux> i have massive antipathy for data-sharing threads, some merited some some due to ignorance
13:50:05 <avoscadeaux> but i also don't have good ability to think concurrently, i fear
13:50:16 <avoscadeaux> but maybe i just haven't really tried
13:50:25 <tangentstorm> yeah.. just need practice probably :)
13:50:31 <RodgerTheGreat> joe armstrong says sharing memory buffers is terribad and he's a cool guy so I say share data by communicating not the other way around
13:50:50 <tangentstorm> not that i'm any great expert but i don't see it as all that big of an obstacle either...
13:52:12 <tangentstorm> i made a shell where you guys can try mineswpr (minesweeper in retroforth): ssh to retro@argon.sabren.com ... password is currently 6dfigw5
13:53:10 <tangentstorm> RodgerTheGreat: haha awesome game idea.
13:55:32 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentstorm: sweet, I'm in
13:55:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I use a black-on-white terminal window so the greys are a little hard to see
13:56:02 <avoscadeaux> i have programmed maybe one game in my life, and i've forgotten what it was
13:56:16 * avoscadeaux boring weirdoperson
13:56:53 <avoscadeaux> when i was twelve or so and "learning c++" i got my kicks out of modifying an inventory / POS system from "Who's Afraid of C++ ?"
13:57:10 <avoscadeaux> if only i were as good at programming now as i was then !
13:57:16 <RodgerTheGreat> avoscadeaux: I forget, have you heard about my "Forth Warrior" game?
13:58:00 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentstorm: woah I just uncovered a bunch of cells and there's tons of shit on the stack
13:58:09 <RodgerTheGreat> is that supposed to happen?
14:01:01 <avoscadeaux> avoscadeaux: yes i have. i have the github link too \o/
14:01:06 <avoscadeaux> err
14:01:07 <avoscadeaux> RodgerTheGreat: 
14:01:24 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
14:11:51 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentstorm: I guess basically the question is if I actually made F18 Combat Simulator would you play it
14:12:02 <RodgerTheGreat> this question goes for anyone
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14:19:46 <avoscadeaux> i am terrible about following through on things, so i would say i would play it and then i would probably fail to
14:19:50 <avoscadeaux> hone Forth Warrior imo
14:19:54 <avoscadeaux> i'd be more likely to play that one
14:20:53 <RodgerTheGreat> alright
14:21:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I have had a few requests for a head-to-head competitive mode
14:21:19 <RodgerTheGreat> it'll require some serious re-engineering but that ought to be worthwhile
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