00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.02.04 00:43:52 Hmmm... there was a copy of Scientific Forth for sale on Amazon last night for £56 GBP. It appears to have been sold. I wonder if it's worth it? 00:51:54 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 00:54:27 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@46.208.232.87) joined #forth 00:56:47 tangentwork: are you literate programming or organizing code with org & babel? 01:23:38 --- quit: sw2wolf (Remote host closed the connection) 01:58:15 yunfan: i know of 3 web environments for forth-like languages: 01:58:34 1. http://retroforth.org/demo/ 01:59:16 2. http://rx-core.org/parable/ 01:59:54 3. http://rainbowforth.sourceforge.net/ 02:00:59 newcup: yes, i'm using org-babel. :) I have been experimenting with literate programming off and on. 02:01:49 for this mineswpr game, i've been pushing the .org file along with the generated .rx file to github... 02:02:41 most of the org files are in here: https://github.com/sabren/b4/tree/master/ref 02:03:16 tangentwork: crc's are all in beta demo 02:03:17 https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/ref/mineswpr.org 02:03:39 yunfan : they still work :) 02:04:58 newcup: retro comes with a file called commentary.txt that describes the process by which the kernel re-compiles itself 02:05:31 i've been slowly reworking this into an actual literate program by merging it with the actual code in an org file here : https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/ref/retro-trail.org 02:05:41 sadly, github mangles org files :/ 02:19:21 --- join: dessos_ (~derk@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:21:30 --- quit: dessos (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:55:36 tangentwork: thanks, I'll look into it! I've started experimenting with literate programming, so I'm interested in good examples 04:26:14 --- join: Adeon_ (~makrillit@109.73.169.52) joined #forth 04:28:05 --- quit: Adeon (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:28:31 --- nick: Adeon_ -> Adeon 04:40:55 tangentwork: Which literate programming system are you using? 04:41:55 --- join: Indecipherable (~Indeciphe@41.13.36.196) joined #forth 04:47:37 --- quit: Indecipherable (Quit: used jmIrc) 04:50:53 ttmrichter: emacs + orgmode.org + org-babel 05:05:21 Ah. Too bad. 05:05:27 My editor of choice is ABE. 05:34:39 --- join: protist (~protist@223.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 06:29:40 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 06:33:51 --- quit: Bahman (Remote host closed the connection) 07:19:41 what's ABE, ttmrichter? google's not telling 07:21:00 Anything But Emacs. :D 07:34:21 ttmrichter: :P 07:38:43 haha 07:39:28 i am working up to an editor/environment written in pascal or oberon, and scriptable in forth 07:40:09 the oberon system is basically a giant text editor with a compiler attached. 07:41:15 ( and i was going to try and get it running on ngaro ) 08:20:00 --- join: Tod-Work (~thansmann@host-25.pl1071005.fiber.net) joined #forth 08:26:24 --- quit: tgunr (Quit: I'm outta here) 08:36:43 --- join: kumul (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:50:15 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 09:00:29 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 09:22:59 --- part: Plazma left #forth 10:03:50 is there a common name for { push over pop swap } ( xyz-xyzx ) ? 10:04:49 pick 4 10:06:27 why 4? 10:06:35 it's not pick 3? 10:07:20 since retro doesn't have pick, i called it 'deep'... 10:08:00 as in reaching deeper into the stack than normal... but i don't know if i like it 10:25:52 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@71-13-216-83.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com) joined #forth 10:25:56 --- join: ncv (~quassel@89.35.216.197) joined #forth 10:25:56 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 10:25:56 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 10:29:16 --- join: kbmaniac (~dave@host86-157-24-246.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 10:57:15 oh retro 10:57:37 i dont think i like the words dup over and so on 10:58:06 isnt it just better to have 1dup 2dup 3dup 10:58:34 :) 10:58:49 oddly... in forth, 2dup means to duplicate the top two elements 10:58:51 given how common dup is I think that making the name longer for the sake of consistency is not necessarily a good idea 10:59:11 in retro, 2dup means to issue two "dup" events (maki two copies of TOS) 10:59:23 wow 10:59:41 trying again: in retro, 2dup means to issue two "dup" instructions (making two copies of TOS) 11:00:39 RodgerTheGreat, call it another thing then 11:01:15 dup is a pretty good name for duplicating the top stack element 11:01:22 it is short, commonly used and makes sense 11:01:32 like sc, stack copy, 1sc 2sc 3sc, 11:01:55 i think you wind up juggling 3 more often in retro and joy because you're passing quotes around 11:02:07 RodgerTheGreat: did you find that to be the case with your { } ? 11:02:36 its short for duplicate. but over and pick? pick what? pickaxe? over what? 11:02:37 kumul: acronyms are less preferable to words 11:02:42 * tangentwork is looking forward to trying out forth warrior, btw... as soon as thi minesweeper thing gets out the door 11:02:50 pick should be avoided when possible anyway 11:03:03 dup is not a word 11:03:11 it's a contraction 11:03:40 tangentwork: hmm. Well, I don't use them for everything 11:03:46 not an abbreviation rather ? 11:03:57 I have normal forth-style flow control 11:04:29 I think dup is a better name than 1sc, and there is no objective basis for this. How about that? 11:04:47 I think 1sc would be needlessly cryptic and lack the mnemonic value of dup 11:06:02 tangentwork: with any luck by the time you get around to it I will have hammered out all the bugs and usability problems 11:06:21 is it on the net somewhere? or do i need to download mako? 11:06:42 i don't mind downloading mako. planned to do that anyway... but i'd like to show it around too 11:06:49 its not needlessly cryptic, you have 1sc 2sc 3sc (taking out dup over pick and who knows what else) 11:06:55 I can provide you with a precompiled jar or you can build it from source 11:07:16 tangentwork: you know some people who might like to try it? 11:07:22 it doesnt necessarily need to be sc, could be something else 11:09:00 RodgerTheGreat: I hang out in #learnprogramming and #lpmc ( the associated mentoring community ) 11:09:15 oh, neat 11:09:33 and you think there are beginners interested in Forth? 11:12:32 kumul: there's an article where the "no stinking loops" guy interviewed manfred von thun, and they bounced around the idea of pictoral combinator names... i don't remember their examples, but i picture them as stack comments xy-xxy xyz-y ... those could be actual names. 11:13:12 it could be like cadaddar and cddadr 11:13:14 RodgerTheGreat: i talk about retro on there a lot... i wouldn't say that there are too many interested beginners *yet* :) 11:13:18 yeah 11:13:42 http://nsl.com/papers/interview.htm 11:14:01 nsl is a guy who's into array languages, especially K 11:15:10 well the design of Forth Warrior is kind of aimed at people who already have a rudimentary knowledge of forth 11:15:25 speaking of that sort of thing, I was very happy when I saw recently that J had been released as GPLv3 11:15:41 happened in 2011, but I didn't learn of it then 11:33:56 --- quit: kbmaniac (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 12:43:12 --- join: JDat (JDat@89.248.91.5) joined #forth 12:48:27 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 12:49:37 hello RodgerTheGreat . 12:49:51 hi dto 12:49:53 what's up? 12:50:29 just hanging around listening to music, you? 12:50:36 been hacking of course :) 12:51:40 more tinkering with Forth Warrior 12:51:49 at the moment I'm cleaning up my local repository a bit 12:51:52 oh cool. 12:51:54 hows that going? 12:51:56 brb, making coffee. 12:52:05 you should pitch it to Tigsource when it's ready :) 12:59:08 I suppose I could 12:59:10 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-167-191.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 12:59:18 it's a pretty inaccessible game though 12:59:34 ha! that doesn't stop something getting attention on that site 12:59:36 :) 12:59:46 besides, the cool art should definitely help. 13:00:06 so what is the programming UI like? i saw screenshots of the dungeon, but not the code, unless i'm forgetting 13:00:21 it's a terminal you type on 13:00:29 and you have the ability to load source from an external file 13:00:35 ah. 13:00:48 very simple, nothing terribly sophisticated 13:01:05 one of my games had a brief mention/link on tigsource once. it was compared briefly to the actual subject of the article 13:01:25 btw i would like to check out your sea crab game. 13:01:30 you said all i need is java and ant? 13:01:54 to build it from scratch, yes- ant and the jdk 13:01:59 sea crabs? 13:02:11 didn't you have something called Deep? 13:02:30 i looked through and some of the concepts in those games looked cool. not to mention the crab art 13:02:45 oh yes 13:03:39 once you've built maker by running the ant script in the root of the project you can build and run deep via "./maker games/Deep/Deep.fs --run" 13:06:21 ok i took a note of the instructions :) 13:07:45 after i try it, i'll send you a link to one of mine , (that doesn't require a joystick). what platform are you on? 13:07:54 i have Windows and Mac and Linux builds for most of them 13:08:08 OSX 13:08:14 intel chip? 13:08:16 yes 13:08:33 when you said "crabs" I thought you might have been referring to this: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/tools/Stroyent/demos/CrabFall/crab.png 13:09:12 http://dto.github.com/notebook/xong.html 13:09:22 ah. no. but that's very cute!! 13:16:03 this is really trippy 13:16:59 downloading Mako... 13:18:04 Mako is cool 13:18:23 RodgerTheGreat: does xong work? 13:18:29 seems to 13:20:10 cool :) 13:20:48 ok, pong works 13:21:28 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 13:23:00 made it to level 2 in Deep :) 13:23:01 awesome 13:23:53 it's like space invaders upside down. 13:23:56 and kaboom :) 13:24:10 as the levels progress eventually things become stormy 13:25:47 --- quit: JDat () 13:30:30 I always liked that simple touch to the game. Lightning and all 13:32:01 RodgerTheGreat: is there any sound? i'm not getting any 13:32:30 there is not 13:32:43 That was before he added a sound system at all, iirc 13:32:48 ok, just checking. 13:33:24 only a few of my later games have sound 13:33:24 how the hell do you kill snakes 13:34:14 you can't! 13:34:23 you have to turn it grey 13:34:31 by hitting the segments of the body with the corresponding color 13:34:50 it's kind of on the chopping block. a lot of the players didn't like the snake so much 13:34:53 but it's HARD :) 13:35:24 I have colored the snake grey 13:35:29 but I still don't get how to kill it 13:35:44 the exit inside the grey room should be open now 13:35:56 that goes to the next level. try hitting f1 also for a nice help screen :) 13:36:10 i'll be back in a while. 13:36:21 aw damnit you have to start over completely when you die? 13:36:29 YES :) roguelike permadeath 13:36:32 back in a bit 13:36:37 dto: this game is what might be described as "bullshit hard" 13:36:48 it's certainly interesting, I'll give you that 13:37:11 roguelike permadeath is only a fun mechanic if you're building something that you care about losing. It's just annoying otherwise. 13:37:34 also in roguelikes you do not generally die instantly from touching anything, ever 13:37:58 and dying from shrapnel caused by sending a tracer into a black hole is extremely frustrating 13:38:32 Tod-Work: it's worth trying when you get home 13:38:54 it's not a bad game but it will have a negative impact on my blood pressure if I keep playing, I think 13:39:04 if I can remember, I might do so. I don't have a lot going on tonight, other than figuring out how I want to do the basket on the catapult 13:39:19 Tod-Work: I'll send you a link 13:39:26 already on it 13:39:43 just had to find it in the log 13:46:20 Deep and Five are probably my best original games for Mako 13:48:08 Pong, Pentris, Yar, Metal Gear Salad and Cardboard Kombat are all either extremely simple or derivative 13:48:24 (or both) 13:48:41 Webscape Webigator is original but not very good 13:49:00 hehehe, MGSalad 13:49:07 That was funny 13:50:44 although I guess Forth Warrior counts as an actual game too 13:53:10 Forth Warrior is vaguely inspired by a similar game called Ruby Warrior which, obviously, uses Ruby as the source language. Ruby Warrior is just text-based, though, and has completely different levels and puzzles 13:53:48 FW is probably the only one I'm interested in completing, although my interest in completing things doesn't really cause any action on any level, I suppose 13:57:39 RodgerTheGreat: thanks for your feedback. i've heard sporadic reports that once you "get" that EVERYTHING kills you, the game is more fun because everything is a danger. Also, what you're trying to build is your personal record for what level number you get to. 13:57:47 some enemies don't appear till level 3 13:57:51 etc 13:57:53 and things get crazier 13:58:04 RodgerTheGreat: thanks for playing tho!! 13:58:19 I think I would like it better if you were unlocking levels as you go, and you didn't have to start from 1 every time 13:58:35 hmm/ 13:58:43 it must have taken me 50 tries to beat level 1 the first time 13:58:56 i dunno. i like to think of it as a bitch-hard unreleased atari 5200 prototype. 13:59:02 and the random nature of levels means that sometimes you just start in a spot where you're utterly screwed 13:59:04 i have other games that aren't as .... weird 13:59:06 yes :) 13:59:20 sorry, it's one of my very earliest releases 13:59:44 occasional "fuck you" levels + "instant death at the slightest mistake" is not very fun to me 14:00:44 it is very tense, but I think the difficulty curve is too vertical 14:01:02 if you ramped up the levels more slowly it might be more manageable 14:01:16 I think I would still find instant permadeath very frustrating 14:03:51 i'd like to make a sequel, someday. or release a friendlier version along the lines of what you're saying. 14:11:10 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-167-191.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 14:33:17 --- join: protist (~protist@85.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 14:36:02 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 14:51:09 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 14:54:01 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:05:57 --- join: kumul (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:12:11 --- join: protist (~protist@133.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 15:15:11 --- quit: malyn (Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.) 15:15:29 --- join: malyn (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 15:34:47 --- join: malyn_ (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 15:35:46 --- quit: malyn (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:36:42 --- nick: malyn_ -> malyn 15:39:46 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 15:42:20 dto: did you ever get Forth Warrior working? 15:42:38 --- join: rbarraud (~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 15:46:59 --- join: rbarraud_ (~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 15:50:05 --- quit: rbarraud (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:52:56 --- quit: Tod-Work (Quit: Leaving) 16:11:28 --- join: sw2wolf (~czsq888@171.214.175.146) joined #forth 16:21:00 --- quit: rbarraud_ (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 16:21:03 --- join: rbarraud__ (~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 18:07:30 RodgerTheGreat: forgot to try. is it in the same repo? 18:07:36 yeah 18:07:51 it's in "games/Warrior2" 18:08:10 the original "Warrior" is essentially a low-fidelity prototype 18:10:51 i will check it out in a bit. 18:11:03 i'm a bit sucked into listening to this autechre album "all the way through". 18:11:44 Forth Warrior currently has no sound 18:14:14 still i need something non interactive for a little while 18:14:25 yeah I understand 18:14:28 my brain hurts 18:22:08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J60pepCNkV4 18:23:15 cool 18:25:05 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 18:25:26 I've been listening to Danimal Cannon lately: http://danimalcannon.bandcamp.com/track/corrupted 18:26:02 is it electronic? i'll check it out in a sec. 18:26:07 yeah 18:26:08 just multitasking 18:26:17 this is great bedroom-tidying/cleaning music 18:29:33 ok, putting your link track on 18:30:11 ooh, bass drum is very chompy. 18:32:39 nice. 18:33:48 --- quit: protist (Quit: leaving) 18:34:15 here's one of mine, if you want to hear (from one of my videos: http://ompldr.org/vZnM0bQ/melcrov8r.ogg 18:34:45 http://ompldr.org/vaGN0bA/wraparound.ogg 18:34:57 what else do you get into musically 18:35:40 well, I enjoy Bach. Cathedral organs are fun 18:37:32 --- join: kumul (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:37:53 I also like some of the "new wave 80s" stuff like FutureCop! https://soundcloud.com/futurecop/8-1988-girls 18:39:27 dto: I like melcrov8r.ogg. It's very atmospheric and retro. 18:42:00 thanks! i made it Milkytracker and bunches of samples 18:43:18 http://ompldr.org/vaGN0bg/ompula.ogg 18:43:26 jeez i should make music tonight instead of code :) ? 18:45:14 nah i'll probably code. 18:45:22 what arre you up to RodgerTheGreat . 18:46:06 well I just spent a couple hours working on Forth Warrior. I have some chunks of old projects I cleaned out earlier that I was thinking about making presentable and checking in 18:46:38 Forth Warrior now has three ending cinematics for if you make it all the way through the dungeon 18:47:00 wow. yeah i promise to check it out soon. 18:47:09 do you have a specific test plan i should follow? 18:47:24 it's pretty open-ended 18:48:02 mainly just be careful when you're screwing around with the RStack. Junk values left in there can cause the game to crash 18:48:08 otherwise it should be pretty solid 18:48:22 here's one more ambient/retro thing, then i'll stop spamming you with tracks http://ompldr.org/vaGN0bw/rappy.ogg 18:49:21 interesting 18:49:29 I think the first one is still my favorite so far 18:49:47 this one's a bit random, done on a synth with a little tiny midi keyboard :) 18:50:10 i'm not really any good at it, but i need something for my games 18:50:19 I've tinkered with a few softsynths for Mako but I'm terrible with audio in general 18:51:00 http://ompldr.org/vaGN0bw/rappy.ogg <--- milkytracker again 18:51:15 yeah you just linked that 18:53:21 oops. wait. 18:53:31 http://ompldr.org/vaGN0cg/beatup.ogg 18:53:33 sorry. 18:55:33 http://ompldr.org/vaGN0dQ/monks.ogg 18:55:40 this one was made very differently. 18:57:04 coffee time. 19:04:20 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 19:24:31 --- join: kumool (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:26:23 --- join: mo (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:26:47 --- nick: mo -> Guest90682 19:27:06 --- nick: sw2wolf -> sw2wolf{away} 19:27:56 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:28:50 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 19:29:20 --- join: kumul (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:32:08 --- quit: Guest90682 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:48:22 --- join: cratuki_ (~Craig@leaf.vm.bytemark.co.uk) joined #forth 19:53:40 --- quit: cratuki (*.net *.split) 20:31:27 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@238.sub-70-195-64.myvzw.com) joined #forth 20:31:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 20:40:34 good night everyone 20:40:44 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 20:44:20 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 20:44:23 1000000 sqrt .s 20:44:33 --- nick: sw2wolf{away} -> sw2wolf 20:44:45 oh, no bot here 20:45:40 --- join: dto (~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:46:24 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com) joined #forth 21:03:18 --- nick: dessos_ -> dessos 21:07:36 --- quit: dto (Remote host closed the connection) 21:08:34 --- join: kumool (~Kumool@c-76-26-237-95.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:09:38 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 21:15:44 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 21:16:05 --- join: karswell` (~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 21:18:47 sw2wolf: Not yet, no. :) 22:18:19 --- part: sw2wolf left #forth 22:19:38 --- quit: kumool (Quit: Leaving) 22:36:13 --- join: sw2wolf (~czsq888@171.214.175.146) joined #forth 23:04:56 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 23:18:15 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@86.98.18.206) joined #forth 23:28:40 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@90.84.146.221) joined #forth 23:30:44 --- join: kbmaniac (~dave@host86-157-24-246.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 23:40:02 --- quit: kbmaniac (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23:51:46 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.02.04