00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.02.03
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07:04:10 <RodgerTheGreat> so what's going on, folks?
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07:30:10 <schmx> food is going on
07:30:45 <RodgerTheGreat> good plan
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07:36:13 <schmx> supposedly studying should be going on, but that is not happening. Mostly casual browsing.
07:36:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I am continuing to squash bugs and add features to my forth programming game
07:37:15 <schmx> A forth programming game? What's this? :)
07:37:38 <RodgerTheGreat> so glad you asked!
07:37:39 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/games/Warrior2
07:37:58 <RodgerTheGreat> if you have Java I can provide you with a standalone jar for running the game
07:38:09 <schmx> oh what a nice git repo. With a nice manual etc.
07:38:13 <schmx> Yup I gots me some java.
07:38:20 <RodgerTheGreat> cool beans, give us a moment
07:38:36 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.mediafire.com/?g4uk2uquxbgg2u3
07:39:24 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a few things you can do which crash the game currently (like leaving junk on the rstack) but in general it's fairly solid
07:39:37 <RodgerTheGreat> if you encounter problems let me know and I'll try to fix it
07:40:49 <schmx> Going for a quick laundry run, will check it out after that :)
07:40:55 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
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07:53:11 <schmx> ok now how do I fire this game up?
07:53:22 <RodgerTheGreat> basically just launch that jar
07:53:42 <schmx> yeeh. I got a nice picture and a nice console thing.
07:53:52 <schmx> this Mako thing seems very exciting
07:53:56 <RodgerTheGreat> so at this point I'd recommend reading the manual
07:54:04 <RodgerTheGreat> if you still have any questions, shoot
07:54:38 <RodgerTheGreat> Mako is a nice little VM I wrote for making video games in Forth and it's sort of grown into something I use for other purposes too
07:55:37 <schmx> sweet! ancient ruins.
07:58:26 <schmx> oh's now I get it.   This is a very cool idea, RodgerTheGreat :)
07:58:32 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks
07:58:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I hope you have fun
07:59:09 <RodgerTheGreat> as soon as someone beats all 10 levels I will add more
07:59:23 <RodgerTheGreat> and I am already plotting another game in a similar vein
07:59:52 <RodgerTheGreat> also several people asked about adding a multiplayer competitive mode to Forth Warrior so I may do that in the near future
08:04:22 <schmx> I love this. Nice mix of puzzle game and programming <3
08:04:34 <RodgerTheGreat> that was the goal
08:05:48 <RodgerTheGreat> in the past several people had told me they thought forth was kinda neat but didn't know what they should write in it
08:05:48 <RodgerTheGreat> this game gives you a structured series of tasks to explore forth
08:05:55 <RodgerTheGreat> and lets you do something visual, since not everyone finds it very rewarding to just to text-based stuff
08:06:09 <RodgerTheGreat> *just do
08:07:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I have an idea for a somewhat more zelda-like game where you enter a room at a time and you can issue commands to make the hero do things directly, but you can use Forth to automate things more and more
08:09:42 * schmx nods.
08:10:25 <schmx> Seems to be an "issue" for many with forth. Not so much entertaining feedback for the beginning programmer.
08:10:41 <schmx> I really like this concept.
08:10:49 <RodgerTheGreat> some people are entertained by text, some people want something more immediate
08:11:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and this also lowers the barriers to trying forth because it's just a little self-contained jar
08:12:00 <RodgerTheGreat> the small vocab makes it less intimidating and encourages people to write their own implementations of basics like allot or -text or whatever you decide you need
08:12:17 * schmx nods.
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08:13:36 <schmx> It's quite a shift from the "here's how you write a thing to parse some text that will output a webpage" that seems to be popular :)
08:14:53 <schmx> Very nice work here, RodgerTheGreat. :)
08:26:01 <RodgerTheGreat> oh also I found a bug- 'keys' was written incorrectly. Here is a fresh build if you're still playing: http://www.mediafire.com/?gsu7ahdbc3y9fze
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08:34:35 <RodgerTheGreat> schmx: think you know any would-be forthers who could benefit from this?
08:35:37 <schmx> RodgerTheGreat: Sadly no. I'm quite disconnected from the whole "IT world" these days.
08:35:53 <schmx> I grew up on forth and z80 asm, that is why I hang here occassionally ;)
08:36:32 <schmx> I do intend to beat this game tho :D
08:37:39 <schmx> It is such a playful way to learn forth.. And I'm finding it hard to think of any language that would be a better fit for something like this.  Every aspect of this is just *very* nice :)
08:39:54 <RodgerTheGreat> well having some data structures might make doing a complex pathfinding algorithm easier but I think it's fun this way
08:40:26 <RodgerTheGreat> schmx: what do you think of the dialect this game uses? I do a few things in kind of an unusual way
08:40:44 <kumul> are there pointers in forth?
08:40:50 <schmx> I haven't jumped deep enough into it to have any opinions on the dialect.
08:41:04 <schmx> kumul: you mean pointers like in C.. a value for a memory address?
08:41:17 <kumul> 2 words having the same address
08:41:55 <schmx> You can store the address of a word in a variable or some such, sure.
08:42:02 <kumul> foo1 @ foo2 @ =  
08:42:18 <kumul> would both yield the same thing
08:42:22 <RodgerTheGreat> that would be comparing the contents of two variables
08:42:32 <kumul> woops
08:42:37 <RodgerTheGreat> when you use a variable name it pushes an address
08:42:48 <kumul> then foo1 foo2 = (would be the same thing)
08:43:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it is possible to alias variables against one another but I don't see why you'd want that
08:43:35 <kumul> i guess the only way to go about it is to    create Foo1 : foo2 Foo1 ;    ? 
08:43:37 <schmx> kumul: Do you mean something like... a = &b;   a == &b   ?
08:43:52 <kumul> schmx, cant say, dont know C
08:43:56 <schmx> ok.
08:44:25 <schmx> I just know "pointers" in C and asm world. So I'm not quite sure what it is you're looking for :)
08:44:36 * schmx just shuts up for now
08:46:50 <kumul> schmx, im just thinking of possibilities man
08:47:43 <schmx> kumul: That is good.
08:47:43 <kumul> someone was asking me about forth having pointers and the first thing i thought of is "why?" but i thought it would be better to actually give a helpful answer
08:47:55 <schmx> kumul: I just don't understand what you mean by pointers. :)
08:48:29 <RodgerTheGreat> when I think of pointers I just think "oh, an address"
08:48:32 <schmx> 2 words having the same address is not what I think of when I hear pointers. (:
08:48:35 <schmx> ya me too.
08:48:47 <RodgerTheGreat> in this way forth has a more straightforward approach to pointers than C
08:48:55 <RodgerTheGreat> imo
08:49:16 <schmx> can't not agree with that :)
08:49:35 <schmx> now it seems I must go to the pharmacy and get some meds for my sick lady here.  HAve a good evening.
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11:35:22 <kumul> http://muforth.nimblemachines.com/
11:35:32 <kumul> MUFORTH IS NOT DEAD!
11:35:37 <kumul> last date: 2010
11:36:22 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
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12:01:56 <JDat> [21:34:54] <kumul> MUFORTH IS NOT DEAD!
12:02:10 <JDat> hey! Thank You for link!
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12:14:13 <fantazo> hmm?
12:15:51 <fantazo> well, whatever exactly muforth is, it get's now a git clone here ..
12:16:46 <JDat> As soon as I see AVR, it becomes interesting for me
12:18:55 <fantazo> JDat: I'm always interested, if something forthish is going on.
12:19:12 <fantazo> that ol' language needs a couple of projects
12:19:40 <fantazo> I wonder, when I finally get something useful out of my forth library tinkering
12:20:04 <fantazo> those who might be interested: http://www.gitorious.org/fflow
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12:51:14 <JDat> I am trying to understand forth.
12:53:04 <JDat> anywai for my small DIY project for PIC and AVR MCU's GC BASIC is working well. I have full control over hardware resources and it generate relatively compact code. With some minor AMS file editing I can get what I need.
12:53:34 <JDat> If I compare compare it to Arduino Bloatware.
12:54:21 <JDat> I hobe, taht FORTH is solution for tiny embedded MCUs
12:54:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Forth is better than almost any other language for blending high level code with inline assembly
12:54:52 <RodgerTheGreat> it would totally rule as a language for implementing drivers
12:54:58 <RodgerTheGreat> evidently the guys at sun agreed
12:56:12 <kumul> RodgerTheGreat, why?
12:56:16 <kumul> what did they do?
12:56:24 <RodgerTheGreat> OpenFirmware
12:56:44 <JDat> OpenFirmware ir interesting, but...
12:56:53 <RodgerTheGreat> cards for sun workstations contain forth bytecode with their drivers
12:56:55 <JDat> I want OpenFirmware on Raspberry Pi
12:57:16 <JDat> And I want OpenFirmware on AtTiny2313A...
12:57:16 <RodgerTheGreat> well too bad, broadcom decided you didn't need any BIOS at all
12:57:46 <JDat> Why I can't find one?
12:58:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't understand your question, JDat 
12:59:16 <JDat> Why there isn't OF for Rasberry Pi and AtTiny2313A?
12:59:48 <JDat> OK Pi don't need BIOS, but what about Pi Bare metal with OF?
12:59:56 <JDat> OF=>OpenFirmware
13:00:06 <RodgerTheGreat> open firmware is a BIOS
13:00:16 <RodgerTheGreat> the RasPi just executes a bootloader
13:00:28 <JDat> But OF could be much more than BIOS
13:00:34 <JDat> could*
13:00:57 <RodgerTheGreat> well it's sort of like asking why you can't get snow tires for your jetski
13:01:02 <RodgerTheGreat> it doesn't work that way
13:01:42 <JDat> TCP/IP stack, USB, video. OF could be some kind of low level OS for Pi
13:02:02 <RodgerTheGreat> you could certainly make a forth kernel that is bootable on a RasPi
13:02:33 <JDat> I can't. I don't have anought knowladge and time for this. :(
13:03:56 <fantazo> RodgerTheGreat: how is it to be great ( just joking )? Or in other words, how are things going, projects at the moment running?
13:04:22 <RodgerTheGreat> it's alright I guess
13:04:41 <RodgerTheGreat> my forth programming game works and is totally playable now
13:04:49 <RodgerTheGreat> some might even call it "fun"
13:05:09 <RodgerTheGreat> learn about forth while stabbing monsters and getting treasure
13:05:13 <fantazo> ok, great I think I clone that too...
13:05:28 <JDat> where i can downlaod Your Forth Game?
13:05:47 <RodgerTheGreat> the source and manual are all here: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/games/Warrior2
13:05:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I can obtain a precompiled jar for you
13:06:16 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.mediafire.com/?gsu7ahdbc3y9fze
13:07:28 <fantazo> maybe maybe... I could write a game for it, instead of doing the stupid "I need to make my own engine!!!" way of doing things, like I do now.
13:07:50 <RodgerTheGreat> fantazo: actually making games is pretty fun dude
13:09:28 <fantazo> RodgerTheGreat: I think that too
13:11:23 <fantazo> RodgerTheGreat: I'm impressed. Atleast the first "startup" looks exactly like I would like to build my own engine. 
13:11:47 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks
13:12:18 <fantazo> yeah, I think I play with it. lets see if I can do something with it.
13:12:45 <RodgerTheGreat> note how you can load source from an external file as described in the manual
13:12:55 <RodgerTheGreat> it'll save a lot of headache
13:17:28 <fantazo> which manual?
13:18:31 <fantazo> docs/makoBasics.md?
13:20:14 <fantazo> RodgerTheGreat: I like the license of mako ;-)
13:21:00 <RodgerTheGreat> that is the manual for Mako itself, the VM the game is running in
13:21:06 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/games/Warrior2/Readme.md <- this is the manual for the game
13:23:24 <fantazo> ah ok
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19:44:54 <tangentwork> https://twitter.com/tangentstorm/status/298274955378974721/photo/1 since i know you all hate the twitters. :)
19:54:37 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentwork: cool
19:54:48 <RodgerTheGreat> what new things is this demonstrating?
19:55:46 <tangentwork> well for one thing, it's the first time i've been able to generate a grid from a pair of loops in 3 days of trying :)
19:56:07 <tangentwork> probably because i was insisting on using that forth.rx
19:56:33 <tangentwork> but also there usually isn't any color in retro, nor can you see the stack without asking for it with .s
19:56:57 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, neat
19:57:27 <tangentwork> when you import files it shows the ok or error message after every token in the file so you get this long wall of text
19:57:58 <tangentwork> for me it was pretty easy to miss error messages in all that so i made them colored
19:59:04 <tangentwork> and the other part is the imperative style macros  ( .while ... .do ... .again ) also ( .ifso ... .else ... .then  for forth-style if statements )
19:59:16 <RodgerTheGreat> the color seems like a useful addition
20:02:27 <tangentwork> i made a color help system a while back too https://twitter.com/tangentstorm/status/255984195627790336/photo/1
20:02:32 <tangentwork> probably could use some updating.
20:03:18 <RodgerTheGreat> good use of high and low intensity
20:04:26 <tangentwork> :) i'm not an artist or anything but i've had some practice using those 16 ANSI colors :)
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23:19:11 <yunfan> tangentwork: is there any web ide for forth familly, since i have got an chromebook
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