00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.01.31
00:18:46 --- log: started forth/13.01.31
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00:18:46 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | links: qr.net/gforth isforth.com forthfreak.net qr.net/ans_standard | Buy forth chips from www.greenarraychips.com'
00:18:46 --- topic: set by foucist!~foucist@ps14150.dreamhost.com on [Thu Apr 26 19:32:21 2012]
00:18:46 --- names: list (clog karswell nighty^ proteusguy Bahman dessos IAmHere ttmrichter @I440r cataska Nisstyre Inode malyn Plazma tgunr ASau dTal tangentcode kulp bjorkintosh rixard nottwo segher nighty-_ schmx cratuki newcup yiyus zbrown djinni dzho Adeon koisoke_ carc)
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04:39:09 <schmx> vlc
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06:54:35 <tangentcode> RodgerTheGreat: i look forward to trying it :)
06:54:42 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
06:55:01 <RodgerTheGreat> let me know what parts suck so I can make them not suck so much
06:55:02 <tangentcode> i'm trying to actually make the deadline for the one game a month thing :)
06:55:20 <tangentcode> i think i might just make it 
06:55:38 <RodgerTheGreat> alright then I'll expect your report on my desk February 1st
06:55:44 <tangentcode> implementing minesweeper in retro
06:55:49 <RodgerTheGreat> oh fun
06:56:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I did a j2me version of minesweeper and the most entertaining part was writing an AI "attract mode"
06:56:36 <RodgerTheGreat> it is mesmerizing to watch minesweeper solve itself
06:56:37 <tangentcode> i've got all the core logic written except the flood-fill, but it's probably got some bugs.
06:56:51 <RodgerTheGreat> although the generalized form of the game is NP-complete
06:57:00 <tangentcode> ah, yeah... i'm not trying to solve it yet... 
06:57:15 <tangentcode> that'll be a lesson later down the line. :)
06:57:36 <RodgerTheGreat> my solver would just guess randomly on ambiguous cases. High-quality implementations of the game make you always guess correctly when there is ambiguity
06:59:36 <tangentcode> ?
06:59:56 <tangentcode> like a sort of quantum field thing? :)
07:00:11 <tangentcode> where when you observe, you always luck out?
07:00:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think that's quite how superpositions work
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07:02:20 <tangentcode> sure it is.. just like groundhogs... :)
07:03:57 <tangentcode> very work in progressy: https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/rx/minesweep.rx
07:05:46 <RodgerTheGreat> is there a reason you call it dup2 when usually it's 2dup?
07:05:59 <tangentcode> sure
07:06:16 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
07:06:18 <tangentcode> 2dup in retro is ( xy-xyyy )
07:06:28 <RodgerTheGreat> what
07:06:34 <tangentcode> because 2 is a prefix that does something twice
07:06:40 <tangentcode> i do not like this
07:06:43 <tangentcode> but that is how it is 
07:06:47 <RodgerTheGreat> retro is so odd
07:07:15 <tangentcode> it's a mix of ideas from forth and joy and it has some inconsistencies
07:08:34 <tangentcode> ( also from lots of other places )
07:09:01 <tangentcode> but: the vm is pretty awesome, and there was a file called commentary.txt that walks through the entire bootstrap process
07:09:23 <RodgerTheGreat> that is cool
07:09:33 <tangentcode> it got kind of out of date, but i've been studying it and turning it into a real literate program
07:09:39 <RodgerTheGreat> as I have said before Ngaro is quite similar to my own VM
07:10:11 <tangentcode> i can now actually generate the code for kernel.rx from the literate document
07:10:31 <tangentcode> ( i'm generating minesweep.rx too.. that's why there are so few comments and the formatting is a little weird )
07:10:40 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
07:11:30 <tangentcode> i am going to rewrite the first phase of the bootstrap process in something that looks nothing like retro
07:11:56 <tangentcode> because i got incredibly completely confused every time I'd look at code in the kernel ( which is where *everything* is defined )
07:12:28 <tangentcode> i'd try to use that as example code and i couldn't because half of the words are really from the metacompiler and only apply to the target image
07:12:39 <RodgerTheGreat> hmm
07:13:15 <tangentcode> so. i will use a plain assembly language 
07:13:25 <RodgerTheGreat> with a little goading I might be able to get Maker (my boostrap compiler) to emit Ngaro bytecode
07:13:36 <tangentcode> https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/rx/b4.rx
07:14:09 <tangentcode> i do plan to study your stuff in detail but right now i've got my hands full with retro.
07:14:21 <tangentcode> also, i'm on a deadline for midnight tonight, so i'd better get back to work. :)
07:14:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I need to head to work myself
07:14:40 <tangentcode> seeya :)
07:14:51 <RodgerTheGreat> 'later
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12:14:03 <dto> ohai.
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12:53:53 <RodgerTheGreat> what's up, folks?
12:55:36 <kulp> running tests. terribly bored !
12:55:40 <kulp> yourself ?
12:55:44 <RodgerTheGreat> uh
12:55:49 <RodgerTheGreat> pushed a new version of Forth Warrior
12:55:53 <RodgerTheGreat> ' actually works now
12:55:59 <kulp> wait, where did you push this
12:56:08 <RodgerTheGreat> and there's an in-game help system
12:56:25 <kulp> the current first google hit for forth warrior is http://bible.cc/isaiah/42-13.htm
12:56:28 <kulp> hehe
12:56:30 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/games/Warrior2
12:56:35 <kulp> The LORD will march out like a mighty man, like a warrior he will stir up his zeal; with a shout he will raise the battle cry and will triumph over his enemies.
12:57:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I would totally use that if the game didn't have a female protagonist
12:58:00 <RodgerTheGreat> the game is pretty playable now, just bare-bones
12:58:10 <RodgerTheGreat> needs more levels and lots of little polish things
12:58:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking about adding some brief cutscenes sort of like the intermissions in pacman
12:59:44 <kulp> github thinks it's all F# code ;P
12:59:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I have noticed
13:00:26 <RodgerTheGreat> get your friends to star my repository so that forth is demonstrably more popular than F# and github will be forced to change their tune
13:00:45 <kulp> brilliant !
13:00:53 <RodgerTheGreat> we are well on our way
13:01:23 <RodgerTheGreat> a few more stars and my repo will be in the top 10 F# repositories on github
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13:01:51 <kulp> ooh we have a common star-er
13:01:56 <kulp> catseye
13:02:11 <kulp> actually he's forked me, not sure about starred
13:02:24 <RodgerTheGreat> catseye is technically the reason Mako is WTFPLed
13:02:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I was waiting to add a license until somebody actually asked
13:02:50 <kulp> haha
13:03:43 <kulp> :O tangentcode joined github on my 26th birthday
13:03:50 <RodgerTheGreat> it is a sign
13:04:02 * kulp swears eternal allegiance
13:04:16 <tangentcode> http://imgur.com/gallery/sMsefsb
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13:05:00 <tangentcode> YES! Join the pascal/forth alliance, and together we will crush the evil C empire!!! :D
13:05:26 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentcode: it shall be glorious
13:09:47 <kulp> :(
13:10:00 <kulp> what's so great about pascal
13:10:06 <kulp> it wasn't even meant to be a real language !
13:10:15 <RodgerTheGreat> it is small
13:10:19 <kulp> ah
13:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> C still isn't a real language
13:10:32 <RodgerTheGreat> it is a shared delusion of compiler authors
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13:14:19 <Onionnion> RodgerTheGreat, "still"?
13:21:04 <RodgerTheGreat> as in unmoving. See also distillation.
13:21:49 <tangentcode> i'm making a pascal/oberon -> forth compiler
13:21:58 <tangentcode> or that's one piece of what i'm making anyway.
13:22:32 <RodgerTheGreat> glorious
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13:29:22 <kulp> certainly sounds novel
13:29:38 <kulp> :O then someday i can run pascal programs on my cpu maybe
13:30:54 <RodgerTheGreat> kulp: wait, you're telling me your CPU *doesn't* run P-Code?
13:30:59 <RodgerTheGreat> what the hell dude
13:31:07 <RodgerTheGreat> you're living in the past
13:32:27 <kulp> i am but an ignorant child :(
13:32:35 <RodgerTheGreat> there there
13:32:43 <kulp> next design i will run ALL THE CODES
13:32:57 <kulp> but first i must learn to run one :(
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14:10:47 <tangentcode> kulp: what cpu is this?
14:11:49 <tangentcode> i already implemented my forth vm pascal ( or at least ported ngaro ).. and now i'm implementing pascal in forth :)
14:12:05 <kulp> tangentcode: "tenyr" ; the ISA is described (badly) here https://github.com/kulp/tenyr/wiki/Assembly-language
14:12:20 <kulp> it's not a very good machine for forth, really
14:12:24 <kulp> but i'm implementing a forth on it anyway
14:12:53 <RodgerTheGreat> kulp: you show 'em
14:13:15 <kulp> haha
14:13:36 <kulp> well next design i might do a stack machine, but i am still a register-machine kind of thinker i guess
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14:22:31 <tangentcode> starred. pretty cool.
14:24:36 <kulp> thanks. my problem is that i put too many irons in the fire ... i have the simulator + simulated devices, FPGA implementation, forth implementation, all the binutils, everything going at once. but at least it has kept my attention for a year, which is more than i can say of any other project i have done
14:25:35 <tangentcode> i know something about too many irons in the fire
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14:27:49 <kulp> hehe. what are you irons ?
14:27:55 <kulp> your*
14:29:36 <tangentcode> well... right this minute i'm making a minesweeper game in retroforth. i just finished cleaning up some of my old turbo pascal code from 1994 for the flood fill routine.
14:29:59 <tangentcode> went from 85 to 24 lines of pascal.. now i'm going to port it to forth.
14:30:13 <kulp> aha
14:30:26 <kulp> to get a feel for what your compiler should do ?
14:30:30 <tangentcode> trying to ship some kind of game by midnight.. .which is < 8hrs away
14:30:38 <tangentcode> yeah
14:31:09 <tangentcode> i have the parser already... and it generates code throuh a template...
14:31:36 <kulp> ah nice
14:31:38 <tangentcode> my previous attempts use logic in the parser to do tree transformations...
14:31:52 <tangentcode> but this time around i started generating retro code
14:32:12 <tangentcode> it seems like it would work pretty nice...
14:32:14 <kulp> is it implementing a sort of pascal VM in forth ? or is it supposed to be a more "native" translation
14:32:22 <kulp> not that i have a clear idea where to draw a line there
14:32:34 <kulp> in fact my question is fundamentally flawed ;)
14:32:41 <tangentcode> i'm sort of building my forth up to be like pascal i guess
14:32:48 <tangentcode> by creating pascal-like words
14:33:21 <tangentcode> then i can use those words in the code generation template...
14:33:52 <kulp> aha
14:34:18 <kulp> maybe i should make my sad excuse for a c compiler do something like that
14:34:24 <tangentcode> so basically there's just an extra pass in the compile process at the end where forth gets to do whatever
14:34:27 <kulp> since i'm very vague on code generation :/
14:35:30 <tangentcode> not pretty to look at, but: https://github.com/nickelsworth/noct
14:35:50 <tangentcode> https://github.com/nickelsworth/noct/blob/master/targets/Retro.stg
14:35:56 <tangentcode> that's the main template
14:36:46 <tangentcode> i kind of stopped for a bit to get better at using retro so I could figure out what i needed to generate.. ( as you guessed )
14:43:27 <kulp> yeah i've been fighting myself about that in a few different projects
14:43:34 <kulp> i always want to automate something right away
14:43:52 <kulp> but sometimes i start automating it before i understand how to do it manually and i have to force myself to work through it at least once :P
14:43:58 <kulp> what template engine are you using ?
14:48:51 <tangentcode> stringtemplate.org  ... by the same guy who made antlr.org
14:49:35 <tangentcode> actually http://antlr4.org/ is even nicer... you can just write the grammar and it'll walk the tree for you and output s-expressions
14:49:55 <tangentcode> ( mostly afk / working on code here )
14:50:10 <tangentcode> not afk. away from window :)
14:50:59 <kulp> hehe
14:51:17 <kulp> you're making me think i should dump my bison grammar :(
14:51:20 <kulp> but i want to do all the things myself !
14:51:25 * kulp MUST DO ALL THE THINGS
14:52:28 <RodgerTheGreat> real programmers hand roll their parsers
14:52:48 <RodgerTheGreat> which reminds me one of my parsers doesn't work quite right
14:55:13 <kulp> tangentcode: your personal mission statement link on your webpage is broken :(
14:55:32 <kulp> and at least one other article link :(
14:55:49 <RodgerTheGreat> http://tangentstorm.com/ is down entirely for me
14:56:27 <tangentcode> yeah i don't have a website up anywhere
14:56:30 <tangentcode> well
14:56:41 <tangentcode> http://michaljwallace.com/ i guess.. but that's old too
14:56:47 <kulp> oh
14:56:54 <kulp> well if i found it, other people might ;)
14:57:13 <tangentcode> i lost withoutane.com a while back
14:57:35 <tangentcode> will rebuild once i have something to show people :)
14:58:25 <tangentcode> http://reddit.com/r/b4lang was sort of my site for a while, but then i started hanging out on irc ;)
14:58:37 <tangentcode> now i just ramble to anyone who listens :D
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15:00:26 <kulp> oh you're the b4 guy
15:00:33 <kulp> hah i saw that on reddit a while back
15:00:38 <kulp> not that i really looked into it but i remember
15:01:15 <kulp> this link is purple in chrome http://www.reddit.com/r/b4lang/comments/xmfcq/03_team_b4s_game_jam_entry_artist_wanted_ansi/
15:07:23 <tangentcode> :D
15:08:07 <tangentcode> yep. so tonight, i'll finally ship my 24 hour game that I started in august :)
15:08:22 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentcode: I don't do ansi stuff but if you ever switch to pixel based stuff I might be able to sprite some stuff for you
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15:16:02 <tangentcode> :)
15:16:25 <tangentcode> we should do the next ludum dare or something!
15:16:57 <tangentcode> or... well... i'm making a game a month, i hope :)
15:17:26 <tangentcode> i don't do text-only... i just wanted to start with that
15:17:39 <tangentcode> i have some graphic stuff up here:  http://gamesketchlib.org/
15:18:27 <tangentcode> it's in processing/java... i decided if i was going to teach the class, i would teach it in the language I actually want to program in for the next decade or so. :)
15:18:58 <tangentcode> which is what set this whole giant project off i guess
15:19:15 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, you dont do "ansi" meaning terminal curser stuff?
15:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean I don't do "ANSI-art"
15:19:32 <I440r> oooh
15:19:42 <RodgerTheGreat> which is what tangentcode is using
15:19:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I do garden-variety pixel art
15:20:09 <I440r> tangentcode, i have a game for you
15:20:14 <I440r> like space invaders but different
15:20:22 <I440r> its a conecpt i came up with a few months back
15:20:26 <I440r> called "Space Inversions"
15:20:31 <I440r> i.e. YOUR the invaders
15:20:42 <kulp> i just beat the space invaders game 
15:20:43 <kulp> :D
15:20:54 <RodgerTheGreat> so you control the rate at which space invaders drop down, reverse direction and speed up?
15:21:08 <I440r> you win by getting your dood to ground level
15:21:17 <I440r> mothership flys by and drops things that give you a boost or whatever
15:21:43 <I440r> not exactly. you get to dodge bullets but you dont control speed or direction
15:21:55 <I440r> tho ive not fully thought that out lol
15:22:01 <RodgerTheGreat> how do you dodge without controlling speed or direction
15:22:04 <I440r> it might not work that way for the player then
15:22:11 <RodgerTheGreat> that's sound of one hand clapping shit right there
15:22:15 <I440r> by being able to pause movement momentarilly
15:22:30 <I440r> i know. its not fully thought out lol
15:22:40 <I440r> needs to be implemented and tested and adjusted to make the game play actually interesting
15:22:42 <I440r> oh
15:22:43 <I440r> crap
15:22:53 <I440r> you have to be able to control movement in order to catch mothership drops
15:22:55 <I440r> so yea.
15:23:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: my forth game is playable now. But you aren't going to like it because I wrote a forth in forth in a VM that runs on java
15:23:24 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, i saw the sources. thers some stuff in there i would be interested in
15:23:39 <I440r> and FYI im developing an android game and ive put alot of the intelligence of the game in FORTH
15:23:49 <RodgerTheGreat> neat
15:23:50 <I440r> i wrote a java forth 
15:23:59 <I440r> not the compiler part just the execute part
15:24:00 <RodgerTheGreat> impossibru
15:24:22 <I440r> my android project is on hold tho. it is way way too big for just me
15:24:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean, that sounds at least somewhat counter to your previously expressed opinions about not forth/asm
15:24:36 <I440r> the game map is 512 by 256 so far
15:25:07 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, for a forth compiler. writing a forth executing engine.. blah use bash for all i care
15:25:25 <RodgerTheGreat> well that was my whole friggin' point
15:25:27 <I440r> and 99% of my rules are really rules of thumb that even i break on occasion
15:25:45 <RodgerTheGreat> you can boostrap a forth using whatever you have lying around and then you try to make the forth metacircular
15:25:57 <I440r> no.  gforth is a forth compiler and it buries all the intracacies of the language inside a C virtual machine
15:26:15 <RodgerTheGreat> ughh I don't want to start this again
15:26:16 <I440r> isforth is not yet meta circular
15:26:49 <I440r> but if you look at the isforth kernel which is coded in assembly, the output of the assembler is IDENTICAL to what the forth compiler would produce if it were metacompiling this kernel
15:27:13 <I440r> my android java forth engine is not a forth really call it a forth-ish
15:37:04 <tangentcode> I440r: last ludum dare was "you are the villain" ... i started doing a reverse "defender" game... i think it would need some decent AI to make the defenders smart enough
15:37:33 <tangentcode> would like to talk more about this tomorrow when i can think about something other than minesweeper :)
15:37:35 <I440r> tangentcode, yup
15:37:41 <I440r> heh
15:38:00 <I440r> ill be driving 300 miles to a new job on sunday for possible start monday
15:38:07 <I440r> i start either mondy or wed for sure
15:38:21 <I440r> jury is still out on that part but ill be driving there sunday night
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15:39:07 <I440r> and if you code this i get credit for the IDEA k-thx-bai :P~
15:42:37 <RodgerTheGreat> tangentcode: make your next game about a custodian in a copper mine
15:42:49 <RodgerTheGreat> you could call it mine-sweeper or something
15:44:36 <tangentcode> :D
15:54:34 <tangentcode> https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/rx/minesweep.rx ... okay. i think it's all display stuff now
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22:13:24 --- log: started forth/13.01.31
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22:13:24 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | links: qr.net/gforth isforth.com forthfreak.net qr.net/ans_standard | Buy forth chips from www.greenarraychips.com'
22:13:24 --- topic: set by foucist!~foucist@ps14150.dreamhost.com on [Thu Apr 26 19:32:21 2012]
22:13:24 --- names: list (clog malyn crcx cataska beretta kumool kbmaniac_ Nisstyre @I440r impomatic tangentfail rixard karswell nighty^ dessos IAmHere ttmrichter Inode Plazma ASau dTal kulp bjorkintosh nottwo segher nighty-_ schmx cratuki newcup yiyus djinni dzho Adeon carc koisoke_)
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23:15:10 <dto> hi all. so i went through my game engine and made a (nearly) comprehensive vocabulary list of all the words in my little dialect. http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=iMUEKPBF  now to just implement the little wrappers that will bind each word to the game engine behavior ...
23:15:34 <dto> the ones in the top list (the core words) are mostly done. 
23:15:44 <dto> ah, it's pretty late at night, probably nobody cares :)
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23:24:28 <yunfan> a question, how to do metacompiling on arm chip since it is harvard architecture
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.01.31