00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.01.11 00:15:46 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.174) joined #forth 00:15:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 00:26:44 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 00:39:21 --- quit: rabenauge (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 00:45:37 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 01:01:17 --- join: rabenauge (~sag@88.130.160.200) joined #forth 01:01:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +v rabenauge 01:08:07 --- quit: Inode (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 01:21:37 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.147.69.184) joined #forth 01:21:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 01:25:40 --- quit: Bahman_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:50:50 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 01:50:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 01:54:54 --- join: Bahman_ (~Bahman@2.146.3.235) joined #forth 01:54:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman_ 01:58:41 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:19:38 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 02:19:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 02:21:50 --- quit: I440r (Remote host closed the connection) 02:31:44 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.144.104.193) joined #forth 02:31:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 02:31:57 --- quit: Bahman_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:47:17 --- join: Indecipherable (~Indeciphe@41.23.83.132) joined #forth 02:47:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Indecipherable 03:04:41 --- join: Bahman_ (~Bahman@2.147.75.229) joined #forth 03:04:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman_ 03:05:24 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 03:23:24 --- join: rabenauge_ (~rabenauge@88.130.160.200) joined #forth 03:23:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +v rabenauge_ 03:23:53 --- quit: rabenauge_ (Remote host closed the connection) 03:28:31 --- quit: epicmonkey (Remote host closed the connection) 03:28:43 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 03:28:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 03:35:00 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 03:36:16 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 03:36:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty^ 03:37:50 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.144.37.144) joined #forth 03:37:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 03:40:38 --- join: Inode (~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net) joined #forth 03:40:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Inode 03:41:37 --- quit: Bahman_ (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 03:51:22 --- quit: Indecipherable (Quit: used jmIrc) 04:11:08 --- join: Bahman_ (~Bahman@2.145.238.145) joined #forth 04:11:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman_ 04:14:41 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 04:44:38 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.46.70) joined #forth 04:44:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 04:48:58 --- quit: Bahman_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:55:31 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 04:57:26 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-114-160.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 04:57:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 05:01:05 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 05:08:45 --- quit: Nisstyre (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 05:08:49 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 05:24:25 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 05:24:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre 05:28:43 --- join: _spt_ (~in@host-92-12-216-148.as43234.net) joined #forth 05:28:43 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 05:28:43 --- join: _spt_ (~in@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 05:28:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v _spt_ 05:34:12 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 05:34:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +v protist 05:41:41 HELLO! 05:54:29 --- join: anannie (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie) joined #forth 05:54:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +v anannie 05:54:39 protist: Hey!!! 05:54:57 anannie: you live! 05:54:59 anannie: hello 05:55:07 Yes I do 05:55:38 Okay, now you'd nerd sniped and well after 16 hours, I managed to write a generalised solution to PE12 that runs under .4s 05:55:43 i got a girl's number tonight out of habit...but i don't have my own appartment until February :/ 05:56:05 anannie: ooo damn, nice :D 05:56:30 i need to check xkcd about nerd sniping again 05:56:49 wanna see my code? 05:57:13 I'll show you mine an you show me yours :p 05:57:42 haha....but mine doesn't work yet! 05:57:50 protist: and damn you for making me spend 16 hours on this 05:57:56 putting it that way makes me feel naughty :p 05:58:34 I will have you show me yours once i get mine working 05:59:02 my interpretter is still "very close" to interpretting a word 05:59:08 not quite, yet 05:59:31 protist: You're avoiding it aren't you? 06:00:00 anannie: :/...lol 06:00:43 just write a solution and code 06:01:06 It is a hard problem, but it isn't that hard 06:01:19 kk i will get back on it, i guess lol 06:02:00 :) 06:02:08 I can give you hints if you want 06:02:25 no thankyou 06:02:26 :) 06:21:58 --- quit: yiyus (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:22:48 anannie: did you use prime factorization? 06:22:58 Yes, I did 06:23:04 uhg 06:23:18 did you generate a list of primes, first? 06:23:47 Nope 06:23:53 I was smarter than that 06:24:05 I did it in parallel 07:05:56 godamnit 07:06:00 this problem is hard 07:06:02 lol 07:06:10 i will come back to it later :/ 07:12:19 you have all the pieces to solve it protist 07:12:32 I'll give you one more 07:13:16 The key for me was that the total number of factors for a number can be found out using the permutation of the powers of that number 07:13:47 hmmm 07:14:23 i will come back to it...I am worn out though...I might sleep soon, but fixing my segmentation fault in my assembly program is sounding easier right now lol 07:46:35 --- quit: segher (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:50:02 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 07:50:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v segher 08:21:04 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 08:30:28 --- quit: anannie (Remote host closed the connection) 08:54:05 --- join: anannie (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/anannie) joined #forth 08:54:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +v anannie 09:17:40 --- part: _spt_ left #forth 09:23:56 --- join: JDat (50e9eefd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.233.238.253) joined #forth 09:23:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v JDat 09:50:50 --- join: ASau (~user@46.115.44.204) joined #forth 09:50:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 09:50:51 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:52:12 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 09:52:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 10:04:02 --- join: impomatic (~digital_w@46.208.50.63) joined #forth 10:04:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v impomatic 10:07:31 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 10:07:53 There doesn't appear to be a decent Forth for Android :-( 10:15:30 --- part: JDat left #forth 10:26:41 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 10:26:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 10:40:25 my interpretter just successfully interpretted `dup' !!! 10:40:26 :D 10:46:58 That's a good start :-) 10:49:24 it took it from input, looked it up in the precompiled dictionary, and executed it :D 11:06:52 --- quit: protist (Quit: leaving) 11:08:57 \o/ 11:09:05 did it have anything to dup ? 11:09:06 :) 11:10:06 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 11:13:43 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 11:13:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 11:17:41 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-114-160.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 11:17:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 11:22:20 --- join: ncv (~quassel@89.35.216.197) joined #forth 11:22:20 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 11:22:20 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 11:22:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ncv 11:28:42 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 11:28:42 --- nick: tgunr_ -> tgunr 11:35:07 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@87.sub-70-194-66.myvzw.com) joined #forth 11:35:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 11:36:05 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 11:36:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 11:47:03 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 11:48:49 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@66.249.166.10) joined #forth 11:48:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 11:48:55 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@71-13-215-242.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com) joined #forth 11:48:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +v RodgerTheGreat 11:49:01 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 11:52:12 howdy everybody 11:53:58 I don't suppose that, offhand, anyone is familiar with an algorithm for converting a mealy machine into an optimal equivalent moore machine? 11:56:51 no, but with some reading and research I might be able to help you figure it out RodgerTheGreat 11:57:25 well I was asking to see if I could skip the reading and research. :) 11:57:43 so if nobody knows of one offhand I will dive into a pile of journals 11:57:54 how's it going, anannie? 11:58:11 I slept and I'm much better now RodgerTheGreat, how about you? 11:58:25 doing ok 11:58:47 made it through my meetings and my advisor was really happy with the work I got done this week 11:58:50 so that's good 11:59:15 RodgerTheGreat: That's great 11:59:53 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 11:59:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 12:00:08 Today I have a ton of work to do. I'm going to make a killing at work. I have this stack of things to write and I think if I work hard and I work smart, I can get all of them written today 12:01:35 I haven't been focussing on work as it hasn't been a priority. Learning has been my priority, but I realise the mistake in that and I'm going to fix it RodgerTheGreat 12:02:13 well, learning is good too. But practice is an important part of learning. 12:05:30 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: No route to host) 12:16:49 Yes it is RodgerTheGreat 12:24:40 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 12:27:46 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:27:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 12:29:34 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:35:17 anannie, dont lose your job over neglect, your job can be a means of achieving your goals! 12:35:22 a stepping stone as it were 12:36:20 I440r: erm, I think you read what she said backwards dude 12:38:34 He read it right RodgerTheGreat 12:38:39 I haven't been doing well enough 12:39:21 in todays economy you cannot afford to lose a job... not even in cambrige england :) 12:39:29 but specially not in the united states right now 12:39:45 this "Obama Dont Care" is going to destroy the economy 12:39:55 I'm not in England.. btw which ethnicity do you think I am? 12:39:56 and thers nothing left to destroy 12:40:22 amg you could be arab, french morocan, french, itallian, english... lol 12:40:48 i would guess not chinese :) 12:41:01 I440r: on what basis? 12:41:09 on the basis that ive seen her photo lol 12:41:20 right 12:42:11 anannie, so what ethnicity are you ? 12:42:21 I ain't tellin' 12:42:31 :p 12:42:34 how did i know that would be the answer <3 12:42:56 joke's on you she's actually an unusually intelligent dog who has learned to type 12:43:08 a very good looking dog! 12:43:15 anything can happen on the internet 12:43:18 woof 12:43:52 ohh you could be from isreal! 12:43:57 shoulda had that on the list too 12:44:24 BTW, RodgerTheGreat I did the math and I decided that there was zero downsides to pasting that link to my photo in. I440r can't physically reach me, find my location or know my real name through that. It's really just another pic and heck again how do you guys even know that it's mine? 12:44:57 oh 12:45:05 well now I feel left out 12:45:06 The only potential downside is that I might end up famous (yeah right) and it might come back to haunt me, but then what's the worst that can happen? 12:45:10 Okay here it is 12:45:18 anannie, we dont. and your real name, where your from, who you work for... not really important lol 12:45:43 every guy in here could fall madly in lust with you? :) 12:46:08 https://www.dropbox.com/s/m65lij48gyiob4b/Photo%20on%2017-05-2012%20at%2022.46%20%233.jpg 12:46:36 I <3 topless dresses 12:47:14 she claims she isnt totally naked in that photo :) 12:47:36 Dude that's a bit below the belt I440r 12:48:00 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 12:49:34 I dunno, that could be a calculated ambiguity 12:49:52 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.175) joined #forth 12:49:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 12:49:58 :) 12:50:07 lol 12:50:49 I didn't think twice about it when I took the pic 12:51:24 well it is a nice photo. The short hair suits you. 12:51:53 Thank you RodgerTheGreat 13:00:02 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-171-79.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 13:00:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion 13:02:11 you notice how this epidemic thats hit the states is NOT being called the flu 13:02:37 the cdc says its a "influenza like illness" 13:03:23 I440r: That's because there are a lot of variations about what we call the Flue and influenza viruses is a designation based upon specific proteins and the combination thereof 13:04:11 well as long as this isnt like the 1918 epidemic 13:04:22 675,000 Americans died of influenza and pneumonia. 13:04:23 * Flu 13:05:14 When compared to the number of Americans killed in combat in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam combined- 423,000- it becomes apparent that the influenza epidemic of 1918-1919 was far more deadly than the war which it accompanied 13:08:26 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 13:08:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 13:20:50 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 13:54:20 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:02:24 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 14:13:09 what is the latest news on flu vaccines 14:13:19 i've never gotten one but i understand due to polymorphism you're generally playing a lottery 14:14:09 if an influenza strain is similar to one you have been vaccinated for your immune system will still have an edge 14:14:43 i should probably do some research on their batting average 14:14:54 i could have gotten a free shot at work 14:15:13 do brits have an idiom like "batting average" ? bowling average ? :) 14:16:52 maybe they say batting average but mean cricket 14:18:16 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 14:18:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 14:18:26 yeah maybe americans got the expression from them :P 14:18:40 "Batting average is a statistic in cricket, baseball, and softball" 14:20:47 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:26:37 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 14:26:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 14:31:01 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 14:39:06 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 14:39:35 so, anybody doing something exciting on this friday night? 14:40:10 i might work on my teletype project ! 14:40:19 or i might play command & conquer :( 14:40:49 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 14:40:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 14:44:07 RodgerTheGreat: I'm trying to work and I'm learning about relationships 14:44:30 well I guess that can be good? 14:44:43 transitive, reflexive, symmetric 14:45:12 Yes it is RodgerTheGreat, I'm trying to change these days and become a person who gets stuff done and well this is an important part of it 14:46:04 kulp: I understand those at least 14:46:48 RodgerTheGreat: watch out, you may just encourage more terrible "jokes" 14:46:59 I do that all the time 14:49:50 well that's reflexive and symmetric down 14:50:09 if only i can encourage someone else to make a bad joke, through you ... 14:53:37 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 14:53:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 14:53:56 RodgerTheGreat: May I sanity check something? 14:54:03 sure 14:54:20 RodgerTheGreat: Do you remember that chat thing I talked about yesterday? 14:54:46 yeah, analyzing the content of what people say in a chat channel in order to extract threaded conversations from a single chatroom 14:55:01 RodgerTheGreat: I'm wondering if there was a way to do real-time data retrieval contextually based on what is being said. 14:55:16 RodgerTheGreat: It will be very topical and highly specific, but I'm wondering if that's possible at all 14:55:47 maybe you could be a little more specific- what would it be like to use? 14:56:29 i think you'd need some very good NLP to get threaded conversation information ; it's hard enough to tell who's talking to whom when i'm a human, sometimes 14:56:49 unless you enforce rules like consistent nick usage 14:57:09 you might be able to come up with a heuristic that worked decently 14:57:19 RodgerTheGreat: Let's say there's an IRC conversation happening internally about a sales call and stuff, the input is parsed, the system recognises this and retrieves information in real-time 14:57:19 (but maybe i'm just thinking of the hard case instead of the general case) 14:57:26 kulp: you also have timing information 14:58:00 RodgerTheGreat: true. and if it were indeed topically constrained you'd have a better chance 14:58:03 anannie: oh, so like "it looks like you're talking about sales, here's a sidebar with stuff from your CRM that might be relevant" 14:58:25 RodgerTheGreat: Yes, but less annoying and more in-line 14:58:30 hmm 14:58:45 anannie: those sound like potentially conflicting objectives 14:58:59 kulp: Not really, not if you work hard at it 14:59:10 I think in-band communication is really easy to get wrong 14:59:15 as kulp said 14:59:22 anannie: but even if it's right 100% of the time it could still suffer Clippy syndrome 14:59:31 Yes, kulp 14:59:33 maybe i'm just being devil's advocate though, sorry 14:59:38 you didn't ask me, i'll bug off ;) 14:59:40 No you're spot on 15:00:00 I think a sidebar would be a bit less distracting because it would never interrupt the flow of the conversation 15:00:20 as for making it work, you might get decent results simply by looking for keywords 15:00:57 It'll actually have to be a mix, because people can talk about multiple companies at a time and sometimes you might want things to pop up. I want it to have enough intelligence to do the Right Thing in the context and so on 15:01:06 well simple keyword matching might fail 15:01:37 "Do what I mean" is in general a very, very hard UI problem 15:01:55 i wonder what IBM Watson could do with this 15:02:08 Yes, 15:03:00 you kind of need to either design it expecting to have overeager results (in which case you want to minimize the distraction when it comes up with ideas) or design it expecting it to not always come up with a helpful suggestion when it could've 15:03:08 it's crazy to plan for it to work 100% of the time 15:03:22 and over/under delivering represent different tradeoffs 15:03:26 i had a vaguely related idea at a previous employer, but not real-time ; correlating documents. then we had a company come in and sell us a "neural network" that was supposed to do basically that 15:03:30 get what I mean? 15:04:54 the reason I suggest keywords is because it's a very simple approach that would be easy to try and start tinkering with, whereas most approaches to actually parsing the meaning of sentences in a detailed manner are enormously more complex and in some ways more brittle 15:05:03 I think the right spot is in the middle and that's something only testing can reveal 15:05:59 there are hard ways to do things and there are simple ways which are good enough 15:06:05 I think about video games 15:06:14 video games are all about smoke and mirrors 15:06:42 because you're always running into things that are too computationally intensive or outright complex to do "for real" 15:06:59 Okay, how about a hybrid approach? 15:07:15 such as? 15:08:09 Look I'll be mating this to a database, but could I come up with something that goes through a database, parses what could be asked (including probablistic spell check on the input) and then uses keyword filtering to identify what's going on in a sentence 15:08:26 I could then tie this into a ranking algorithm that then studies the number of times a word is coming up\ 15:08:57 or a particular concept is coming up and then it uses intelligence to determine if that's actually happening and provides contextual information 15:09:07 that sounds plausible 15:09:47 but you'll have to write a lot of code and build a bunch of training data before you see if it makes you happy 15:09:57 an incremental approach is good 15:09:57 I'm willing to do it 15:10:03 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:10:09 I'll start with this IMDB parser thing I have going 15:10:13 ok 15:11:23 when I say things like this I am not implying I do not believe you have the motivation or skills to finish something, I am simply suggesting a "measure twice, cut once" approach to design. Coding something well is time consuming, and ideas come much faster than implementations. 15:11:51 eat an elephant in small bites 15:12:13 build a large application by starting with a very small one and gradually making it more useful 15:12:41 use simpler approaches that work until you can replace them with more sophisticated approaches 15:13:22 isn't part of the trouble with NLP problems that some things work much better, or at all, with large databases ? 15:13:44 "the unreasonable effectiveness of data" 15:13:54 okay, so I 15:13:59 err sorry about that 15:14:21 okay, so I'm starting with a project where I parse some explicit input and do info retrieval on it 15:14:38 What do I read and how do I do this? 15:14:59 I'm not an expert on NLP 15:15:24 or machine learning, really, although I have a basic understanding of ML 15:15:35 do you know anyone I could ask? 15:15:57 you might start by reading about bayesian statistics and bayes classifiers 15:16:26 it's built around the concept of joint probabilities 15:16:59 well conditional probability, right? 15:17:08 yes 15:17:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem#Further_extensions 15:17:34 I don't remember it well, but I've studied it. Sadly my math background is lacking. 15:17:51 and I planned on fixing that once I was out of this country 15:19:13 my officemate actually specializes in machine learning but he has not been on IRC much of late 15:19:26 my apologies 15:19:41 RodgerTheGreat: sorry if you said before, but what are your graduate studies in, if you don't mind ? 15:19:46 I was planning on starting with solidifying certain notions of algebra and then going through college math, but is there any way I can do some work on this as I get around to doing it? 15:19:57 that's okay, I'm glad you're considering this RodgerTheGreat 15:20:12 I'm a PhD student working in compiler optimization and internal representations 15:20:38 RodgerTheGreat: oh, very nice. my company may need to hire you after you graduate :) 15:20:51 kulp: why's that? 15:21:30 RodgerTheGreat: we make, among other things, one of the best vectorising compilers in the world, built on 20+ years of our own IR :) 15:22:00 kulp: that's amazing. 15:22:03 that sounds neat and I'll bet your codebase is terrifying 15:22:14 anannie: didn't mean to hijack your conversation, sorry 15:22:31 RodgerTheGreat: i'm sure it is :P i work in libraries though so i don't have to touch the compiler stuff 15:22:43 kulp: you didn't hijack anything at all! I like learning about new things and well this is how I learn 15:23:24 RodgerTheGreat: i wouldn't mind knowing compilers myself, but i've come to think that real compilers are much too big and complex for me, so i will content myself with toy compilers 15:23:42 they do tend to be very large and complex 15:23:53 but that's unfortunate, because they really don't have to be 15:23:56 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 15:23:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 15:25:58 i imagine a lot of the complexity comes from supporting N frontends * M distributed memory models * P backends where all variables >= 3 15:26:32 there's also just a lot of architecture astronauts 15:26:54 massive boilerplate-heavy overgeneralized systems caked in cruft and legacy support 15:27:00 from frontend to codegen 15:27:35 and for some insane reason people like to write compilers in C, which makes them monstrously more complicated than they would otherwise be 15:28:03 GCC has an extremely elaborate garbage collection system, for example 15:28:43 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:28:43 yeah 15:28:48 ours is actually starting to convert to C++, slowly 15:28:54 and gcc's, too, of course 15:29:17 my toy compiler is in C as well, and for C, which is probably why it doesn't do anything but construct an AST so far :/ 15:29:54 systems programmers fetishize C 15:30:08 guilty as charged 15:30:47 hopefully soon i can fetishise forth ;) 15:31:10 and there's no kind of simplifying force working against cruft 15:31:32 yeah you have to be highly disciplined and make an effort 15:31:41 programming languages are like sandwiches. If you keep them out long enough they start to grow fur. 15:31:56 C is furry indeed. 15:32:15 RodgerTheGreat: You should write a book... 15:32:24 RodgerTheGreat: what would you write a compiler in ? 15:32:34 and I would go further to say that the rampant undefined behavior makes it less qualified as a "language" per se and more of a shared delusion of compiler writers 15:33:10 I write compilers in Java. Ada could be a decent choice. I might try go, or pascal, or mozilla Rust 15:33:12 RodgerTheGreat: haha, well put. now i'm offended ! 15:33:36 there are in reality many alternatives to C depending on what you're actually trying to do 15:34:02 anannie: I've thought about making a children's storybook 15:34:12 lots of pictures 15:34:41 RodgerTheGreat: true, though i think that speaks as much to C's cross-domain versatility as it does to anything 15:34:54 C is not versatile 15:35:00 it's present 15:35:13 it is the javascript of local applications 15:35:30 if you swing a hammer hard enough it can solve a lot of problems 15:36:27 RodgerTheGreat: I would love to read it! Please do make it, you have a natural knack for explanation and writing things 15:36:35 but when you gaze into the void, the void gazes back into you 15:36:55 one must be careful using C lest you become a monster yourself 15:37:01 too late ! 15:37:43 I don't get all of the talk behind different languages and so on 15:39:23 They are all means through which you can express abstract concepts in machine terms and clearly different situations demand different inputs, so why not leave it at that? Use a scalpel when it's needed and keep the hammer in your wood crafting box 15:39:43 I don't get the religion around programming languages 15:39:58 the religion is around who has the hammer and who has the scalpel ! 15:40:33 I think the religion comes from the fact that learning a language thoroughly can be quite time consuming 15:40:41 so people feel personally invested in them 15:42:24 other thing is, some people are at least as interested in the idea of programming as the act or the results 15:42:54 armchair programmers, unsurprisingly, have more time to record their inane thoughts 15:42:58 meh I just care about the results 15:43:25 do I learn X? 15:43:36 Do I get to make Y? Would Y function properly? 15:44:18 I find the process of programming to be meditative and rewarding. Expressing ideas in a clear and efficient manner is art and craft. 15:44:35 Well that is true for whatever you're building 15:44:58 "git r done" leads to half-cocked code slinging 15:45:01 building hardware robots was meditative and rewarding even in the middle of drilling 15:45:30 RodgerTheGreat: It's about who is doing it. When I mean value results, I don't mean shallow motivation, I mean a commitment to making it work. 15:45:50 when you're building a house and you do a sloppy job, it falls over. Unfortunately, PHP Is not subject to the laws of gravity 15:46:37 yes, but that's why you need to have this inner drive that tells you the results matter and less than perfect is not okay 15:47:11 the other problem is that while it is not physically possible to use a test model of a bridge "in production", a prototype of software actually can be used "as is" 15:47:19 I don't know how to explain this, but I've seen that act as a fuel... 15:47:46 management is always willing to let you start with a prototype but as soon as it starts working the prototype becomes a real thing rather than being discarded as a learning experience 15:47:52 RodgerTheGreat: There's a reason why you do scale models first then you load test those and then you estimate the mass and so on, test individual beams etc. 15:47:59 yes 15:48:29 I personally find it hard to swallow when someone tells me to start with the imperfect version first as it bugs me that it's imperfect 15:49:00 well there's a difference between "scaled down" and "imperfect" 15:50:28 the first is practical, the second is lazy 15:50:54 we must strive to recognize our own limitations and work within our envelope 15:51:32 Yes well I'm not saying that I should be able to make the mona lisa on the first go, it's just that most of the things I've been suggested are imperfect (the person knows this_) and it bugs me that I'm expected to implement that 15:52:07 I would rather draw the first line of the monalisa, dab some colour on the canvas than sit down and draw a crude chalk drawing that approximates that... 15:54:34 but you have also expressed anxiety at leaving things unfinished 15:54:41 one of these must give for progress to be made 15:57:13 and there's no shame in that 15:59:17 Yes, you're right RodgerTheGreat 16:10:53 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 16:10:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre-laptop 16:11:54 --- quit: anannie (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.1/20121010223843]) 16:18:17 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:34:03 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: impomatic) 17:32:00 --- join: kumul (~kumul@173.215.194.228) joined #forth 17:32:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +v kumul 17:36:36 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 17:45:48 --- join: kumul (~kumul@173.215.194.228) joined #forth 17:45:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +v kumul 17:47:45 --- quit: kumul (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:54:00 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 18:56:37 --- join: Onionnion|Eee (~ryan@adsl-68-254-171-79.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 18:56:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion|Eee 19:12:46 --- join: Kumul (~nal@173.215.194.228) joined #forth 19:12:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Kumul 19:24:46 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 19:24:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 19:26:30 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 19:26:31 --- nick: tgunr_ -> tgunr 19:27:11 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@66.249.166.10) joined #forth 19:27:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 19:30:48 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 19:34:20 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 19:34:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 20:05:30 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 20:08:54 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 20:08:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 20:14:03 --- quit: Onionnion|Eee (Quit: Leaving) 20:40:52 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:11:58 --- quit: beretta_ (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 22:17:08 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:19:26 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:19:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre-laptop 22:36:12 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-114-160.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 22:36:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 23:19:03 --- quit: Kumul (Quit: Leaving) 23:19:23 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.01.11