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06:25:45 <protist> on openSUSE....`see' seems to crash gforth when i ask to see a low level word
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07:02:17 <crc> protist: this is a known bug; I believe it's fixed in the CVS repo, but not in any official releases yet
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07:11:40 <protist> crc: :(
07:11:47 <protist> crc: and thank you
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09:37:57 <protist> as i get more of my interpetter planned out...everything is started to make more sense...i'm starting to expect things to have certain definitions in the gforth implementation, and they do :D
09:38:03 <protist> starting*
09:38:20 <PoppaVic> "my interpreter"?
09:38:35 <protist> PoppaVic: I'm working on my own Forth inerpretter
09:38:52 <PoppaVic> ah
09:38:59 <protist> PoppaVic: I doubt it will be used much, aside from by me....I think I will call it FORF
09:39:16 <protist> x86 32bit
09:39:54 <PoppaVic> If I ever ran into a *good* llvm tutorial and example, I might try that route - as is, I'll stick to C.
09:40:33 <protist> what is llvm?
09:41:41 <protist> oh just looked it up...why are you interested in the llvm?
09:42:01 <protist> i think the state-happyness of Forth would make it immune to most optimizations
09:45:36 <PoppaVic> I refuse to dick with assembler, is why.
09:45:49 <protist> hahaha
09:46:57 <protist> I'm thinking if i get this running, I may introduce words for syscalls and register manipulations....so then you could have EXTREMELY low level control
09:48:03 <protist> not that it would be efficient, because it would be threaded....but it would be cool, and people could use the syscall support to create new tools to fit their needs
09:50:11 <protist> just a few words, like >%eax, >%edx, and int0x80
09:50:32 <protist> then suddenly you can define system-level words
09:51:45 <PoppaVic> whoop - ans portability is gone. Next?
09:52:01 <PoppaVic> ans/and
09:52:19 <protist> meh...I'm writing the whole thing in x86 anyways
09:52:31 <protist> the portability wasn't there to start with
09:52:36 <PoppaVic> well, there yah go - good luck.
09:52:46 <protist> You are no fun.
09:52:49 <protist> :)
09:53:52 <protist> i suppose if you think that way, then learning assembly is a waste in your eyes, too
09:54:12 <PoppaVic> Nope.
09:54:29 <protist> why not...."no portability"
09:54:37 <PoppaVic> But i did my time with Z80, 6510, and 286 - nowadays, I'm looking at PIC's
09:54:44 <protist> PIC?
09:55:36 <PoppaVic> protist: FIG forth was ported to something like a dozen machines, in asm - I got no qualms in it's use - I don't want to suffer intel horseshit ever again, let alone all the assembler flavors.
09:55:47 <PoppaVic> microcontrollers
09:56:38 <protist> i want to play with some real  SS0 stack machines some day, but for now my computer runs on x86
09:56:50 <protist> so i will play with what i have :)
09:59:25 <protist> i could even allow the fpu to be used as a third stack
09:59:42 <protist> >f   f* f+    etc
10:03:50 <PoppaVic> I've always wanted to try a forth where every "type" has it's own stack. Implementing a type necessitates a stack.
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10:05:20 <protist> go for it
10:05:26 <protist> no one is stopping you :)
10:05:29 <anannie> Hey protist 
10:05:33 <protist> anannie: hello :D
10:05:49 <anannie> I'm sorry I haven't been around, my MBP died
10:05:56 <protist> anannie: i just drew up some diagrams and this interpretter is making a lot more sense
10:06:09 <protist> anannie: i just got my new comp in the mail a few days ago :D
10:06:38 <anannie> that's great protist! I'm back at doing Project Euler and I wrote an optimised sieve of eratosthenes that you're going to like...
10:06:38 <protist> anannie: Debian Wheezy gave me driver issues, but openSUSE 12.2 is working amazingly
10:06:55 <protist> anannie: did you see my sieve?
10:06:58 <anannie> I'm running Ubuntu on a new laptop now, a Lenovo IdeaPad
10:06:59 <protist> anannie: and show me!
10:07:14 <anannie> https://www.dropbox.com/s/1p8bzjqj9rjfn2r/pe7.rb
10:07:27 <protist> anannie: not a huge Ubuntu fan, but badass you are on Linux now :D...def better than OSX
10:07:47 <protist> anannie: now you should learn to use vim
10:09:35 <protist> anannie: i will look at yours while you look at mine :D : http://ideone.com/VHOAOe
10:09:42 <anannie> I actually miss OS X
10:10:16 <protist> you will probably get over it hehe
10:10:32 <protist> ooo you used the 6k +- 1 trick :D
10:10:36 <anannie> I'm buying a new Mac as soon as I have the money
10:10:46 <anannie> Yup. XD
10:11:17 <protist> do you use the terminal?
10:11:21 <protist> that is where the magic is
10:11:38 <protist> sudo apt-get install gforth
10:11:46 <protist> (that will install gforth)
10:11:55 <protist> sudo apt-get install scm
10:12:03 <protist> (that will install a Scheme implementation)
10:12:43 <protist> set -o vi
10:12:59 <protist> (that will allow vi commands from the terminal, if you learn vi/vim :) )
10:13:22 <anannie> Oooh thank you
10:13:29 <anannie> I'll do just this.
10:13:37 <anannie> Also how fast does your implementation run?
10:13:50 <anannie> I'm new to learning how to read code, so I'm still making sense out of your code
10:13:56 <protist> of problem 10?
10:14:12 <protist> like 15 seconds or so, not awesome....but definitely under a minute
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10:15:22 <anannie> It's actually quite clever
10:15:55 <anannie> protist I managed to get the execution time of mine down to 0.308899971s
10:16:05 <protist> thank you...i have possibly more fun factoring code and making it clean than optimizing
10:16:07 <anannie> (for problem #7)
10:16:23 <protist> ooo...i'll take a look at 7 again
10:17:12 <anannie> Okay I'm going to do problem #8 right now, see you in a bit :D
10:19:54 <tgunr_> vi, yuck
10:20:10 <tgunr_> emacs rules
10:20:19 * tgunr_ waits for flames
10:20:44 <tgunr_> the emacs integration with forth is awesome
10:20:54 <anannie> tgunr_ I really don't care. I just care about building stuff 
10:20:57 <PoppaVic> I love watch vi/emacs whores ;-)
10:21:00 <protist> anannie: ok mine solves in less than a second, also :D
10:21:07 <protist> anannie: on problem 7
10:21:15 <anannie> how fast is it?
10:21:27 <tgunr_> used vi for about 20 years, then finally saw the light
10:21:59 <PoppaVic> I use joe or geany, pico or nano in a pinch; scite almost works as well.
10:21:59 <protist> anannie: half a second or less....sec i'll have ideone time it...but i want to clean something up a bit
10:22:55 <tgunr_> problem 7 in Starting Forth?
10:24:00 <PoppaVic> heh.. I don't believe I've opening my hardcover in years. I'd say a decade, but I may have leafed-thru on occasion.
10:24:21 <protist> anannie: time: .32s  
10:24:33 <protist> anannie: http://ideone.com/KuwjVZ
10:25:16 <protist> tgunr_: problem 7 on project Euler
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10:25:47 <protist> tgunr_: i like solving project Euler problems in different languages to practice
10:28:02 <protist> anannie: i could have gotten rid of line 17...but i left it for legibility...i could just `primecount = primecount + checkprime(n)' because checkprime returns 0 or 1
10:28:43 <anannie> That's neat.
10:28:55 <protist> :)
10:29:13 <tgunr_> http://www.fullduplex.org/humor/2006/10/how-to-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-in-any-programming-language/
10:29:52 <anannie> you should just do primecount += checkprime(n) though
10:30:02 <anannie> and to make it even faster you should do stepping 6 a time
10:30:15 <anannie> and then do a loop to check +/- 1
10:31:08 <protist> anannie: python doesn't seem to have a += operator :(
10:31:35 <anannie> protist: I'm quite sure that it does...
10:31:44 <protist> anannie: python, in its "cleanness" seems to have omitted several useful things
10:31:55 <anannie> Ouch protist 
10:32:39 <protist> indeed haha....i am mostly only learning it because the University I am starting my CS degree at in February uses Python
10:33:09 <anannie> protist: I wish I was starting a CS degree... All that structured fun!
10:33:35 <protist> it also doesn't appear to have the C-style for loop : for (initialize;condition;increment) ....so you end up doing funky while loops with increments
10:34:03 <protist> anannie: :)...I can't tell if you are being serious
10:34:12 <protist> anannie: I am looking forward to it....should be easy
10:34:16 <anannie> I actually am, protist 
10:34:33 <protist> anannie: i want to be a professor :D
10:34:34 <anannie> I wish I was in a CS program, because it's a much more structured way to learn
10:34:57 <anannie> protist: You'll probably be the coolest professor out there...
10:35:04 <protist> thank you :)
10:35:43 <protist> Python also has weird variable scoping....global lists and hashes are visible inside functions, whereas global scalars are not
10:36:21 <protist> i have to figure out these quirks so i can write Python confidently hehe
10:37:50 * PoppaVic sighs
10:38:01 <protist> tgunr_: i like the link :)
10:38:13 <PoppaVic> I cannot believe for-loops are still "bad llama" in forth
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10:39:45 <PoppaVic> ..and the variations of do/loop blow goats
10:41:26 <protist> for loops make more sense in infix, i think
10:41:34 <protist> there is the +loop
10:42:14 <PoppaVic> no, there are too many variations to DO as well. I may just switch to endless loops.
10:43:01 <PoppaVic> The sad part is I remember the do/loop wars in Forth Dimensions issues
10:43:11 <PoppaVic> ..even the uselessnet arguments
10:43:36 <tgunr_> ah less, the good ole days
10:44:17 <tgunr_> You will find me in the issue after FIGForth was released, I was the third person to get it running :)
10:45:22 <PoppaVic> I liked the  "newsletters", although too small, ad-filled, and an overpriced membership. THe lack of content and price is why I gave up.
10:53:46 <protist> lag
10:54:59 <protist> can yahl here me...my internet is being gay
10:55:03 <protist> hear*
10:55:29 <PoppaVic> hello, slow-boy ;-)
10:56:28 <protist> :)
10:56:32 <PoppaVic> protist: maybe you have my old wifi ;-)
10:56:43 <protist> maybe
10:57:24 <PoppaVic> wifi quality varies so widely that it is utterly depressing.
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11:05:27 <tgunr_> does anyone here know John Hall?
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11:18:29 <protist> anannie: problem 12 is interesting
11:19:07 <protist> anannie: there seems to be a straightforward but pain-in-the-ass way to optimize it....so i am trying my damndest to optimize it some other way
11:21:05 <anannie> I'll let you know when I get there protist !
11:26:26 <protist> :)
11:27:48 <PoppaVic> optimizing is for compilers!
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11:33:59 <protist> anannie: i am definitely missing something here...but i refuse to use wikipedia
11:34:55 <anannie> protist: You should wikipedia during these things. Even their page says so! As this is the only way you can learn
11:35:31 <PoppaVic> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
11:36:02 <PoppaVic> So funny.. oh, my.. I can't breath.. the eyes are tearing up.. oh, my..
11:36:10 <protist> PoppaVic: what? lol
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11:37:00 <PoppaVic> Y'all "learn" however you like.. in 20 years, I won't care - 10 if I am lucky.. In 100, no one will remember.
11:37:01 * protist hopes PoppaVic is laughing at anannie, and not himself
11:37:44 <PoppaVic> protist: learning from "wikipedia", let alone this Euler jive and "optimizing".. Have fun.
11:37:45 <protist> PoppaVic: you sound like a mean old man :p
11:37:50 <PoppaVic> I am.
11:37:54 <protist> hahaha
11:38:21 <protist> fuck this problem
11:38:30 <protist> i guess i could wiki it :/
11:39:35 <protist> i just tried every one of the things i thought would be a pain
11:39:56 <PoppaVic> what's the prob?
11:40:22 <protist> PoppaVic: solve it. http://projecteuler.net/problem=12
11:41:00 <PoppaVic> No. I won't even load it.
11:41:18 <impomatic> You might be able to solve that without writing a program
11:41:29 <protist> do it, then
11:41:50 <PoppaVic> what's it pay?
11:42:03 <protist> it may be possible...if you do it i will say "good job"
11:42:18 <protist> no monetary pay
11:42:19 <PoppaVic> hahahaha - ok, you got the laugh this time ;-)
11:42:27 <protist> :D
11:43:13 <protist> it looks so easy...but it aint
11:43:26 <PoppaVic> Life is like that.
11:44:31 <protist> plus those huge numbers aren't going to fit in a cell well ;)
11:44:39 <protist> so no Forth fun for yo
11:44:40 <protist> u
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11:49:15 <impomatic> Triangle number n is calculated by n * (n+1) / 2.  It might be easier to count the unique factors of n and n+1 than n * (n+1) / 2
11:53:26 <protist> hmmmm
11:56:31 <protist> damn this problem
11:57:14 <impomatic> Have you got it working for smaller numbers?
11:57:59 <protist> yes
11:58:14 <protist> my program has grown beyond recognition and sanity
11:58:22 <impomatic> :-(
11:58:29 <protist> i generated a massive list of primes to use
11:58:40 <protist> maybe i should try making the list smaller
11:58:51 <protist> but i already have break statements :/
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11:59:18 <protist> it takes like 7 seconds to solve for n = 70
11:59:24 <protist> and it scales very badly
11:59:36 <PoppaVic> hey kulp
11:59:37 <protist> i did a lot of magic to try to reduce the problem
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12:00:25 <PoppaVic> if you can't read it a day or a month later - it's wrong. Have fun.
12:00:55 <anannie> protist: I think I know the trick over here.
12:01:11 <kulp> hi PoppaVic 
12:02:20 <protist> anannie: lol http://ideone.com/xr8e6Z
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12:09:01 <impomatic> factors_of( n*(n+1) ) = factors_of( n ) * factors_of( n+1 )
12:10:09 <protist> oooo
12:11:10 <protist> ok
12:12:16 <impomatic> E.g. 8 has 4 factors. 9 has 3 factors. So 72 has 12 factors
12:17:28 <PoppaVic> kulp: how's yer forth comin' along?
12:18:04 <kulp> well i've been working on my teletype project recently so there hasn't been any progress on the forth for two months or so
12:18:13 <PoppaVic> ah.
12:18:17 <kulp> but i have the text interpreter eating lines and doing things
12:18:30 <kulp> i don't have DOCOLON though
12:18:31 <PoppaVic> pfft.. I can eat lines all day in C ;-)
12:18:45 <kulp> yeah and i'd already be done if i weren't implementing it in my own asm :P
12:18:59 <kulp> hehe
12:18:59 <PoppaVic> that's fun.
12:19:17 <kulp> nothing right now is particular hard, it's just a bit awkward, and i have to add features to the assembler as i go along 
12:19:28 <PoppaVic> I'm trying to get more microcontroller/PIC experience, so we're cranking up an assembler.
12:20:16 <kulp> oh i remember you mentioning that but i didn't realise you were making your own toolchain. i suspect that's because you want to go off-PIC later ?
12:20:54 <PoppaVic> perhaps. also just avoiding the usual toolchain.. There are some other issues, and it's prolly just plain useful.
12:22:15 <PoppaVic> kulp: I ran into issues with the PIC24 series. My stupid blower doesn't seem to want to program them. I think it's a hw issue. It can all be resolved, but I need work sooner than a compiler or blower ;-)
12:23:32 <kulp> aha
12:23:43 <kulp> yeah i've never had good results with PICs, but that was my fault for making crappy programmers :(
12:25:06 <PoppaVic> To be honest, I bought cheap and "kit", but it still seems like the dadblamed things require an expensive programmer for the spectrum - or maybe that stupid PICkit2 (which i didn't find for less than 50 until I had and built my canakit)
12:26:01 <PoppaVic> kulp: Still worthy of interest in that they are so cheap that a mass-produced item would have a higher profit-margin.
12:26:27 <anannie> protist: Okay look, the problem basically is that once we have a list of prime factors i.e. we perform factorisation, we need to find the total possible number of unique combinations that can exist for those prime factors 
12:27:32 <kulp> PoppaVic: i wouldn't mind writing "real" codes for some "real" micros, but for some reason now that i have my own arch i feel the existing stuff is boring
12:27:52 <kulp> but i did buy some little $3 digispark boards
12:27:57 <kulp> that i might be able to use soon
12:32:42 <PoppaVic> I don't get "bored", but I do have at least one project in mind and a few more I think would be useful.
12:33:33 <kulp> so are you planning to put a forth on your PICs
12:35:40 <PoppaVic> it's possible
12:36:50 <protist> anannie: do it :p
12:36:51 <PoppaVic> I never liked the "development boards" I've seen - vastly overpriced, if the idea is to convince the buyer of the "value" of the devices.
12:37:55 <PoppaVic> kulp: in more than a few cases, I can see a value to reprogramming the things inplace.
12:38:04 <kulp> i sympathise, but i think the point is to make them easy to use for new users, not to demonstrate value per dollar
12:38:15 <kulp> PoppaVic: yeah that's a nice ability to keep
12:38:31 <kulp> i know we've definitely required at my work, a zillion times
12:39:17 <PoppaVic> The point to PIC is that they are so cheap, plentiful and primitive that they save designers a lot of silliness. To sell the programmer or dev-boards for 100's more than the device is worth is silly.
12:39:45 <PoppaVic> I really did want to figure out the USB interface, but at the moment it's moot.
12:40:02 <PoppaVic> Unlike others, I won't boot into doze and suffer that to play.
12:40:55 <kulp> well i don't suspect they are exactly making a killing from dev boards, so it seems more likely that they are just trying to price the dev boards for their actual costs + NRE
12:41:05 <kulp> since volume wouldn't be high enough to make margins very interesting
12:41:16 <kulp> but i'm just playing devil's advocate i guess.
12:41:43 <PoppaVic> I'd rather build my own or use a breadboard.. I did get a decent COG lcd to play with as well.
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12:55:46 <impomatic> protist: I have a dumb forth program that calculates the answer in 2 seconds by counting the factors of n and n+1 to work out how many factors the nth triangle number has.
12:56:30 <impomatic> Using only single precision / 16 bit math.
12:56:58 <PoppaVic> impomatic: the issue is everyone feels they need to make it run in zero-time in some artsy, "elegant" way.
12:58:24 <impomatic> PoppaVic: not me. I'd rather save my own time and let the computer work harder!
12:59:03 <protist> impomatic: did you test the answer on projectEuler?
12:59:26 <impomatic> protist: no
13:00:02 <protist> i suppose i could test i for you...if it is right, then i will wolve it eventually :/
13:00:06 <protist> solve*
13:00:47 <protist> but i will be surprised if it is right :)
13:03:41 <protist> i doubt the answer even fits withint + or - 33000
13:03:47 <protist> within*
13:04:48 <impomatic> protist: http://projecteuler.net/progress=impomatic
13:05:24 <protist> "you can only view the progress of a friend"
13:05:33 <protist> my account is lambdanu
13:06:01 <protist> what is your "friend key"?
13:07:35 <impomatic> protist: 6233717022637_f68e8798da776fca994df097710d86fe
13:08:32 <protist> nice :D
13:10:12 <protist> I am just going to leave that problem for later...lol
13:10:36 <protist> I'm gonna go to bed
13:10:42 <protist> goodnight #fort
13:10:42 <protist> h
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13:11:33 <impomatic> The answer (the nth triangle number) doesn't fit in 16 bits.  n fits in 16 bits though and that's all my program calculated. Then I worked out the triangle number on a calculator!
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13:28:12 <RodgerTheGreat> anybody write something interesting lately?
13:29:19 <kulp> i almost wrote a forth
13:29:37 <kulp> https://github.com/kulp/tenyr/tree/develop/forth
13:29:38 <kulp> :)
13:29:46 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
13:29:51 <RodgerTheGreat> does it do anything unusual?
13:29:58 <kulp> no :(
13:30:02 <kulp> it doesn't even do much usual yet
13:30:08 <RodgerTheGreat> well there's still time for that
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13:30:23 <kulp> ASau has told me it's a waste of time if it doesn't do anything unusual
13:30:37 <kulp> but really i guess i could say it does something unusual in that it runs on my toy arch, which nothing else does
13:30:39 <PoppaVic> hahahahahaha
13:30:48 <kulp> (that's why i wanted a forth at all, really)
13:30:53 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a little unusual
13:31:08 <RodgerTheGreat> and there's still value to writing things you haven't written before
13:31:12 <kulp> yeah that's what i think
13:31:22 <kulp> anyway what have YOU written then ?
13:32:41 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. Lately? I've mainly been making little bugfixes to my Logo compiler and tinkering with some video game ideas
13:32:46 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing extremely clever
13:34:10 <PoppaVic> "clever" usually implies other than "reverse flow", or "worm gear" or interesting linkages.. It usually suggest "omfg, kill him"
13:34:28 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
13:35:04 <PoppaVic> even that old game "Mouse-trap" was not "clever" - itwas fun, simple..
13:35:44 <kulp> kernighan quote comes to mind
13:36:10 <kulp> to the effect of "if you write code as cleverly as possible, how will you be clever enough to debug it ?"
13:36:24 <kulp> (not that i follow my own advice or anything)
13:36:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess when I think "clever" I tend to think of "new way to simplify a problem"
13:36:27 <PoppaVic> pretty much.
13:36:45 <PoppaVic> no, sorry. "clever" nitwit
13:37:07 <RodgerTheGreat> "oh, if I factor this in such and such way I can reuse code from here"
13:37:11 <PoppaVic> *IS* nitwit. - like "elegant" often means they can't read it in a few days
13:37:47 <PoppaVic> rog: decomp is what I think of as "sensible"
13:38:43 <RodgerTheGreat> this has devolved into essentially philosophy
13:39:00 <PoppaVic> and programming is art, so?
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13:48:11 <PoppaVic> hahahaha.. I love old tv shows ;-)
13:50:29 <PoppaVic> You gotta' appreciate "family values" and a script writer that can manage something like 3 parallel "conversations" at once ;-)
14:00:39 <kulp> inconceivable !
14:02:54 <PoppaVic> It's almost fun to try to track wach characters conversation ;-)
14:02:58 <PoppaVic> each
14:09:59 <kulp> what tv show is this
14:16:15 <PoppaVic> I think it was Big Valley
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15:04:51 <I440r> anannie, wb lol. was worried we had scared u off :)
15:07:31 <RodgerTheGreat> yo I440r 
15:07:37 <I440r> hi lol
15:07:49 <I440r> now u know who i was talking about yesterday? :)
15:08:08 <RodgerTheGreat> mozart
15:08:20 <RodgerTheGreat> no wait, abraham lincoln
15:08:41 <I440r> im adding pulldown menus to isforths TUI
15:08:55 <RodgerTheGreat> spiffy
15:08:59 <I440r> not yet
15:09:44 <RodgerTheGreat> that was meant to parse as "[the previously mentioned idea would/will be] spiffy"
15:09:59 <I440r> :)
15:10:03 <I440r> hopefully
15:13:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: I still haven't seen any significant evidence that anannie actually exists though
15:15:53 <I440r> she does
15:16:12 <I440r> i.e. unline most of the idlers in here she isnt a bot :)
15:16:37 <PoppaVic> doesn't make it female ;-)
15:16:49 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps I will believe you if anannie actually talks
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15:17:03 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: Hola!
15:17:14 <RodgerTheGreat> oh well how about that
15:17:15 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy
15:17:24 <I440r> tolded u :P
15:17:31 <anannie> howdy there RodgerTheGreat 
15:17:57 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: I think I440r mentioned you were new to Forth, or perhaps just to the channel?
15:18:05 <I440r> new to both
15:18:09 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
15:18:20 <anannie> I440r: My MBP had died, so I could come online...
15:18:26 <I440r> but top contender for "channel mascott" status :)
15:18:34 <I440r> MBP?
15:18:38 <anannie> yay!
15:18:41 <anannie> Macbook Pro
15:18:45 <I440r> eep
15:18:48 <RodgerTheGreat> hooray more mac users
15:18:55 <I440r> u get a real computer to pay for it or did your friend donate a replacement :)
15:19:02 <anannie> Well I'm an Ubuntu user now. It's dead.
15:19:06 <RodgerTheGreat> :(
15:19:13 <I440r> ewwwww ubuntu lol
15:19:17 <I440r> get linux mint
15:19:18 <anannie> I440r: He did no such thing.
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15:19:30 <RodgerTheGreat> yo kumul 
15:19:41 <I440r> in what way is it dead? i would be tempted to rip it apart and "fix" it :)
15:19:44 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: what kinds of things are you interested in doing with forth?
15:19:45 <kumul> hey RodgerTheGreat 
15:19:46 <anannie> I might just decide to do so, once I get a hang of it
15:20:25 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: I'm actually interested in creating feedback + logic loops to run robots.
15:21:23 <RodgerTheGreat> that's interesting. I've heard of Forth being used in robotics in the past. Custom hardware, or something off the shelf?
15:21:56 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: Custom. Always custom.
15:21:57 <I440r> i would LOVE to get roomba running forth!
15:22:07 <RodgerTheGreat> rockin'
15:22:16 <anannie> Their create line has that ability
15:22:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I write compilers and video games in forth
15:23:14 <anannie> That is cool RodgerTheGreat 
15:23:27 <I440r> anannie, create line of roomba? put custom roms written from scratch on it?
15:23:52 <anannie> I440r: Yup, or you could just use the Lego NXT line.
15:24:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought that you needed an additional MCU of some kind for the create
15:24:07 <RodgerTheGreat> so I guess you could run whatever you like
15:24:17 <I440r> all roombas have a port allowing you to get info FROM the device but im not sure if you can control it via the port
15:24:37 <I440r> i have a roomba.  makes me LOOK GOOD.. oooh i take care of my apartment... honest!
15:24:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've read some things about spoofing the IR walls as a way of "steering" stock roombas
15:25:13 <anannie> The Roomba is an amazing piece of hardware
15:25:35 <anannie> The create line has room for extension btw
15:25:36 <RodgerTheGreat> sort of like those experiments in making remote controlled "cyborg" cockroaches
15:25:36 <I440r> it is.  good for giving pet cats/dogs and babies rides around the living room :)
15:25:57 <anannie> Babies!
15:26:09 <anannie> O.o
15:26:24 <I440r> i want to create automomous dog fighting remote control planes. i.e. u fly them up. define an areay they can be in. then let go and they dog fight each other
15:26:26 <RodgerTheGreat> my parents got a roomba at one point and although it wasn't an incredible vacuum cleaner I was impressed at how robustly it could move over different terrain
15:27:06 <RodgerTheGreat> scared the hell out of the cats
15:27:07 <kulp> it's by definition a better vacuum cleaner than i am
15:27:17 <kulp> yeah i was just wondering why the lower end roombas say "best for pets"
15:27:17 <I440r> lol what kulp said
15:27:21 <kulp> are they quieter or something
15:27:25 <RodgerTheGreat> kulp: I hear that's rather hard on your lungs
15:27:37 <kulp> RodgerTheGreat: well it's that or smoking ...
15:27:43 <RodgerTheGreat> fair enough
15:27:56 <anannie> I440r: I can't even imagine how complex that'll be
15:28:07 <kumul> forthfreak should have a section for android
15:28:10 <I440r> how had what would be?
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15:28:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the dogfighting planes thing
15:28:22 <kulp> I440r: basically if you could get that working, you could instantly get a job with the government
15:28:27 <I440r> kumul, i want to port isforth to android as a native app
15:28:29 <kulp> and then nobody would see you ever again
15:28:36 <I440r> ooh yea
15:28:40 <I440r> lol
15:28:40 <RodgerTheGreat> open-air tracking systems are difficult
15:28:49 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want any kind of precision
15:28:57 <anannie> Yes.
15:28:58 <I440r> not if each aircraft had a beacon allowing the other to SEE it
15:29:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I have some friends who do VR research and motion tracking is basically their white whale
15:29:27 <RodgerTheGreat> aside from latency
15:29:28 <anannie> I440r: It's still nearly impossible to recompute vectors in real-time an alter heading
15:29:48 <I440r> anannie, i know it would takes some beefy computing power
15:29:59 <RodgerTheGreat> it's really about reaction time too
15:30:07 <kumul> I440r, there seems to be a couple of forth's for android (amazingly enough i dont see python) so thats a win for forth :)
15:30:26 <I440r> tho. kumul  are any of them native apps?
15:30:35 <I440r> running a native forth would probably rquire root
15:30:43 <I440r> or adoption for inclusing by google :)
15:30:45 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: I quit trying to even propose solutions to such problems, because I don't have any and it's likely that I won't be able to come up with any in a short enough time frame
15:30:56 <kumul> i dont think you can run native apps on android, you need to make it for dalvik
15:31:06 <I440r> kumul, not quite true
15:31:21 <kumul> ill steer clear of this, i was thinking of getting a tablet, so i dont know
15:31:30 <kumul> enlighten me I440r :)
15:31:50 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: I think it's generally best to focus on how we can take the things robots can do currently and apply them in useful ways, rather than shooting for pie-in-the-sky ideals
15:31:50 <I440r> kumul, there IS the NDK but its intended to be used to create linkable libraries not stand alone apps
15:32:05 <I440r> stand alone apps can be made however but running them would PROBABLY require root access
15:32:13 <anannie> precisely RodgerTheGreat 
15:32:15 <I440r> tho that may not even be true. not sure
15:32:27 <RodgerTheGreat> robotics incorporates some of the nastiest problems in a number of engineering fields AND computer science. Very easy to bite off more than you can chew.
15:32:31 <I440r> but i would never run any android device that was not rooted
15:32:46 <I440r> what ever you get kumul make sure its on the list of devices supported by Cyanogen Mod
15:33:15 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, if you only bite off what you can chew you never learn much
15:33:40 <RodgerTheGreat> use what you know, and try one new thing with each project
15:36:32 <anannie> Okay I'm a bit curious, but what do the folks over here think about the Thiel Fellowship?
15:37:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I am unfamiliar
15:37:16 <I440r> erm me too
15:37:36 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: are you a west-coaster?
15:37:50 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: Something like that :)
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15:37:54 <kumul> thanks I440r, ill keep it in mind
15:38:20 <I440r> just looked up their web site. thers a hawt asian chix in the front of one of the photos :P~
15:39:58 <anannie> I440r: Laura Deming?
15:40:09 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: I'm actually from a third world country.
15:40:33 <RodgerTheGreat> so you aren't from the US or the USSR. Check. :)
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15:41:12 <I440r> given $100,000 to SKIP colledge and concentrate on their WORK
15:41:15 <I440r> awesome 
15:41:35 <anannie> NAM, ftw!
15:42:07 <I440r> i dont think thats who it is, the slidy photos at the top has 2 very good looking girls in it. one with a red scarf and an asian chix lol
15:42:51 <I440r> 100k to tide me over while i develop my pet projects would be nice
15:42:59 <I440r> specially now that im down to my last 4000 and have no work
15:43:22 <I440r> im not sure i would qualify for a grant with them tho :)
15:43:41 <I440r> i think anannie is from cambridge england
15:43:44 <RodgerTheGreat> graduate school can be pretty good. I get paid terribly but I have enough free time to work on neat projects
15:43:44 <I440r> thats just a guess tho
15:44:56 <anannie> What made you take that guess I440r?
15:45:12 <anannie> You sound like a smart guy I440r, is there anything I can do to help you find work?
15:45:31 <I440r> its in gods hands so im not worried :)
15:45:50 <RodgerTheGreat> hoo boy
15:46:34 <I440r> anannie, was my guess close? :)
15:46:39 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: I wish I had gone to college
15:47:02 <anannie> I440r: Nah, but I do have a cambridge accent.
15:47:22 <I440r> then you know cambridge then?
15:47:24 <I440r> i used to live there
15:48:26 <I440r> and i guess it because you said you know Eben Upton
15:48:43 <I440r> have him come in here :)
15:48:45 <anannie> Ah I actually work for a UK based company
15:49:01 <anannie> I don't know him that well I'm afraid
15:49:06 <I440r> awww
15:49:17 <I440r> are you stateside?
15:49:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a friend who worked for BT for a couple years before escaping to graduate school
15:49:25 <I440r> dont worry i wont stalk you except in here :)
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15:51:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: that cloak is just driving your internet detective skills mad, isn't it?
15:51:45 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, im on the case... . .
15:52:14 <RodgerTheGreat> #Forth, now available in detective-noire
15:53:49 <anannie> lol
15:53:59 <anannie> Even without a cloak, my IP is obfuscated
15:54:11 <anannie> I log on via SSH
15:54:11 <I440r> anannie, i saw that (dangit :)
15:54:17 <RodgerTheGreat> ahaha
15:54:38 <anannie> so if you say get that IP you still shouldn't be able to find me.
15:54:40 <I440r> im guessing anannie is some famous hawt chix that doesnt want the world to know she is a clauset geek
15:54:49 <anannie> I wish.
15:55:31 <anannie> although I do indirectly know two hollywood actresses
15:55:52 <I440r> are they single? can i has their numbers? lol
15:55:54 <anannie> I seriously wouldn't want their life or their fame
15:55:56 <anannie> See
15:56:00 <I440r> oh well... back to coding
15:56:00 <RodgerTheGreat> what is your erdös-bacon number
15:56:18 <anannie> That's the thing everyone looks at you and wants to screw you.
15:56:20 <anannie> 3
15:56:32 <RodgerTheGreat> not bad at all
15:56:43 <anannie> I haven't starred in any movies, but I know people who know people
15:57:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I mostly know people who know computers. :|
15:57:37 <I440r> my sister graduated from the same acting school that glenda jackson got kicked out of
15:57:46 <I440r> while my sister never made it big a bunch of her friends have
15:59:39 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: so what forth implementation are you using?
16:00:01 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: I'm focussing on learning Ruby right now. I'll pick up Forth once I'm done.
16:00:16 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
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16:32:51 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. There were many 6502-based forth implementations. I wonder if anyone has ever tried writing an atari 2600 game in forth.
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16:33:05 <RodgerTheGreat> the timing issues are a real bugbear
16:33:41 <RodgerTheGreat> the 2600 is probably the closest you can get to a "hard realtime" environment without having it saw someone in half when it fails
16:40:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm pretty sure every *commercial* 2600 game was handcoded assembly
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16:47:05 <I440r> anannie, in what way is the mbp broke?
16:47:49 <anannie> I440r: Battery is swollen... I took it out, but the motherboard won't work without it, so the DC board is gone too and the motherboard needs to be replaced as well
16:50:13 <PoppaVic> hehehe - ouchies
16:51:59 <I440r> cant just get a new battery?
16:52:21 <RodgerTheGreat> normally I'm pretty sure macbooks function without a battery
16:52:29 <RodgerTheGreat> my older ones did anyway
16:52:29 <I440r> ooh your saying the mbp should be ale to work without a battery
16:52:56 <RodgerTheGreat> so if it won't boot without a battery it would suggest a deeper problem
16:53:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and working from the other direction, a bad DC board could explain a swollen/damaged battery
16:53:41 <anannie> Yes RodgerTheGreat
16:53:56 <anannie> But all of that is in the past and now I can't fix it
16:54:26 <anannie> I440r: Nope the total cost of repair was greater than buying a new Air
16:54:43 <I440r> anannie, so what did u get?
16:54:46 <RodgerTheGreat> the 11" air is pretty awesome
16:55:04 <I440r> im not sure i would want a product that was locked up the way macs are
16:55:07 <anannie> I bought a Lenovo IdeaPad S400
16:55:21 <I440r> lenovo are good
16:55:47 <I440r> but now you have to get used to something "not mac" heh
16:55:50 <anannie> I really don't care about the lock up I440r, I just care about getting my work done. However there is a point where even I won't bear it... I wouldn't buy the new MBPs for isntance
16:56:07 <I440r> anannie, are you using unity?
16:56:09 <anannie> There were so many things about it that were really neat
16:56:22 <anannie> Yes, I'm using unity and it sucks
16:56:29 <I440r> you dont have to
16:56:49 <I440r> do apt-get install lxde/xfce/whatever and on the login screen
16:56:56 <RodgerTheGreat> macs aren't really locked down that much. The build quality is very good, too.
16:56:59 <PoppaVic> heh.. "unity" - that interface blows dead, rotting goat
16:57:09 <I440r> next to where you log in is a ciruclar button
16:57:17 <I440r> u can select what DE to use
16:57:57 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda frustrating how all the major OS developers are pushing more in the direction of making desktops and laptops more like tablets
16:58:02 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, as good as my mtech laptop?
16:58:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: I don't know anything about mtech
16:58:22 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat, I440r I'm feeling a bit funky, so I'm afraid I won't be as engaging
16:58:23 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, end users wont let that happen
16:58:39 <I440r> anannie, thats ok. you lost a good friend :)
16:58:41 <I440r> we understand
16:58:44 <RodgerTheGreat> end users mostly want to check their facebook accounts and watch cat videos on youtube
16:59:02 <RodgerTheGreat> very few people actually want a computer per se
16:59:21 <RodgerTheGreat> which is why things like the iPad are so popular in the first place
16:59:21 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: I actually miss my Mac because I could do so many things on it that just aren't possible on Linux
16:59:36 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: linux printing and audio are haunting
16:59:47 <PoppaVic> hahaha
16:59:54 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, depends on what printer you get.  CUPS is really good
17:00:00 <I440r> audio can be a bitch
17:00:12 <I440r> because other than the kernel level drivers alsa blows donkey
17:00:36 <I440r> and so does pulse audio JUST for requiring any gnome related library at all
17:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> part of the printing story is how every UI toolkit has a different approach for handling print dialogs so on the same system you have 6 or 8 different kinds of configuration dialogs to print a document
17:00:43 <PoppaVic> reboot to doze; update gps & run the scanner.. reboot to linux and do anything else
17:01:06 <RodgerTheGreat> on a mac, there is a single unified print dialog and I can always print to a PDF if I want
17:01:14 <RodgerTheGreat> that's pretty useful sometimes
17:01:41 <dTal> In my experience ALSA is quite reliable, despite the purported complexity of the API
17:01:54 <I440r> the reason you have ONE way of doing this is because theres ONE authority for what you CAN run
17:01:57 <dTal> and JACK is awesome
17:02:03 <I440r> linux has 86239456294 different ways of doing the same thing
17:02:08 <I440r> jack is donkey dick too
17:02:16 <dTal> so does any general purppose computer
17:02:36 <I440r> dTal, alsa is great at the kernel level
17:02:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: they could've designed window managers so that you register a helper app for printing or something and it routes everything through that
17:02:58 <I440r> above that its a horrendously difficult and IMHO totally undocumented API
17:03:07 <I440r> the sources for the api are NOT a fucking document for using the api
17:03:40 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, thers no reason that couldnt be done.. just nobody did it
17:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
17:04:24 <RodgerTheGreat> so the fragmentation is basically just something we're stuck with
17:05:21 <I440r> anannie, i would recommend you switch out that ubuntu for mint.  the install for mint is pretty much identical to the one for ubuntu
17:05:42 <I440r> all the people who hate unity abandoned ubuntu in favor of mint
17:05:48 <anannie> The problem is that I need flash and a browser and stuff to work
17:05:53 <RodgerTheGreat> for now, Apple has a great desktop OS which gives me access to unix but I don't have to fuck around with it to get things to work. I dread the day that Apple iOS-izes their desktop OS to the extent that I have to switch to linux.
17:05:58 <anannie> I need things to just work for me sot that I can focus on earning money
17:06:28 <anannie> RodgerTheGreat: That day is coming, look at what they have done to the hardware on the new MBP line
17:07:03 <anannie> They have added retina support, but quite frankly the soldered on board RAM and HDD suck
17:07:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I tried out a retina macbook and I was really unhappy with how it renders my favorite font
17:07:22 <I440r> wtf you cant upgrade ram?
17:07:44 <I440r> retina is just their name for HD no?
17:07:51 <anannie> I440r: Nope, not in the new retina books.
17:07:55 <RodgerTheGreat> even the airs have the SSD as a removable card
17:08:02 <anannie> I440r: No, retina is actually much, much higher resolution
17:08:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I wasn't aware that the MBP line is using soldered ram now
17:08:10 <I440r> what resolution?
17:08:18 <RodgerTheGreat> it makes sense on an Air because of the weight/space savings
17:08:24 <I440r> my laptop is 1920x1080
17:09:03 <RodgerTheGreat> the 15" MBP's native rez is 2880×1800
17:09:14 <anannie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina_Display
17:09:33 <anannie> It's not the resolution, it's more about the DPI
17:09:34 <RodgerTheGreat> problem seems to be if you actually want something to render pixel-perfect
17:10:15 <RodgerTheGreat> anannie: right, the OS essentially uses the additional pixels to do "subpixel" rendering from an app's perspective
17:11:06 <RodgerTheGreat> retina displays do look good when displaying something that is vector to begin with
17:11:12 <RodgerTheGreat> but that isn't always the case
17:12:07 <RodgerTheGreat> it's sort of like how glossy displays have become almost the only option. They do reproduce dark colors better, but they have more glare and in general don't seem to fare as well outdoors.
17:12:23 <PoppaVic> that's being polite
17:12:34 <RodgerTheGreat> having the option of buying a retina display is great, but if apple puts it on every model it's gonna suck
17:12:41 <RodgerTheGreat> and I definitely see that in the future
17:13:24 <RodgerTheGreat> PoppaVic: well yeah I'm trying to present this in a balanced way
17:13:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I hate glossy screens
17:13:43 <RodgerTheGreat> but some people like them
17:13:46 <RodgerTheGreat> apparently a lot of people
17:13:53 <dTal> I'm so irritated at the "death of the netbook"
17:14:06 <RodgerTheGreat> they just changed the word "netbook" to "ultrabook"
17:14:06 <dTal> I want an update of my Eee PC 901
17:14:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I liked my 701
17:14:22 <RodgerTheGreat> still use it sometimes
17:14:23 <dTal> The form factor is perfect, just upgrade the hardware
17:14:30 <I440r> dtal if you have money go look at mtech laptops hehe
17:14:39 <RodgerTheGreat> nice little machine for hacking while riding the bus to work
17:14:50 <I440r> take their top of the line model and customize it with all the best pieces parts and... expect to pay over $10,000 lol
17:14:52 <dTal> well that's the other thing it was reeely cheap
17:14:58 <PoppaVic> i never had a glossy before this one - they show every bit of dust, prints; glare like mad indoors or out.
17:15:07 <I440r> or at least 8k
17:15:16 <RodgerTheGreat> PoppaVic: b-but shiny things!
17:15:16 <I440r> mine cost 2k and is awesome
17:15:18 <dTal> ebay for 120 IIRC, brand ew
17:15:30 <dTal> 120 BP hehe
17:15:51 <RodgerTheGreat> y'know I think this is one of the liveliest conversations we've had here in a while
17:15:54 <PoppaVic> shiny things: wonderfinish and beadblasted SS
17:15:58 <dTal> *GBP (sorry, very laggy ssh (and gammy keys on my Eee PC 90))
17:17:00 <dTal> I need to replace the screen, wondering if I can upgrade from rubbish 1024x600
17:17:50 <RodgerTheGreat> device manufacturers hate multiples of 320x240 :(
17:18:05 <dTal> The only plausible upgrade is 1280x768 and it's a tricky res to find in 8.9", and there's still the risk that the aspect is sufficiently different that it won't quite fit...
17:20:51 <kumul> hehe, impomatic solved euler12 in a tweet
17:21:41 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I could see that. Did he use J or similar?
17:22:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean, a brute force expression of that problem would be quite straightforward: http://projecteuler.net/problem=12
17:22:33 <anannie> Hey I'm solving that
17:22:36 <anannie> no solutions!
17:22:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I didn't link a solution
17:23:45 <RodgerTheGreat> but I mean, there is at least an obvious brute force approach for that, y'know?
17:24:43 <anannie> Not if you want to run it within a minute :)
17:24:54 <RodgerTheGreat> well yeah
17:25:30 <RodgerTheGreat> it's no surprise that "brute" often has connotations of being "a little slow"
17:25:51 <kumul> https://twitter.com/john_metcalf anannie dont click on it ifd you dont want the solution
17:26:38 <RodgerTheGreat> oh sweet it's actually in forth
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17:27:46 <PoppaVic> +1 for forth; -10 for twitter; -10 more for this euler-floop
17:28:10 <RodgerTheGreat> not a fan of programming for fun, eh PoppaVic 
17:28:27 <PoppaVic> My idea of "fun" differs
17:29:13 <RodgerTheGreat> kumul: I think that basically is a brute force solution
17:29:54 <RodgerTheGreat> it's still cute
17:31:48 <kumul> whats impressive is that it fits in a tweet
17:34:33 <I440r> whats unimpressive is that twitter restricts your post length
17:34:37 <kumul> PoppaVic, will defining "fun" be fun for you?
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17:44:50 <I440r> proteusguy, hi
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17:48:39 <kumul> I440r, 'I have made this letter longer than usual, only because I have not had the time to make it shorter. -- Blaise Pascal "
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17:49:14 <kumul> youscared him off
17:52:13 <I440r> lol
17:52:32 <I440r> prefection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add but when there is nothing left to take away
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17:57:46 <dTal> good motto for building aircraft
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18:10:52 <I440r> well the guy that said it was a pilot if that means anything :)
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18:13:32 <PoppaVic> You mean a PIrate, I'm sure.
18:13:36 <PoppaVic> arrr
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18:14:57 <I440r> no. french ww2 pilot, author, philosopher, war hero
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19:18:30 <bjorkintosh> how is fort these days?
19:18:44 <bjorkintosh> *forth.
19:19:18 <RodgerTheGreat> pretty cool
19:19:38 <RodgerTheGreat> still pretty much keepin' on keepin' on
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19:25:41 <bjorkintosh> what are forth chips?
19:26:16 <RodgerTheGreat> what do you mean? You wish to know of some specific chips or you want to know what they are like?
19:26:39 <bjorkintosh> what they are like.
19:26:54 <PoppaVic> like forths.. on a chip ;-)
19:27:15 <RodgerTheGreat> they generally have two stacks rather than registers
19:27:40 <bjorkintosh> i see.
19:27:40 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes they have a few registers in addition to the stacks for memory operations and the like
19:27:53 <RodgerTheGreat> they tend to be very simple and as a result energy efficient and physically small
19:28:10 <bjorkintosh> but you have to design your own circuit board around them, right?
19:28:18 <bjorkintosh> or are there kits available for experimentation?
19:28:46 <RodgerTheGreat> some companies offer kits. I don't know of many companies that make forth chips, but greenarrays does and has devboards
19:29:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I am also aware of a few forth chips which exist as verilog descriptions suitable for synthesis onto an FPGA
19:29:31 <RodgerTheGreat> for example: http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html
19:34:36 <bjorkintosh> interesting. have you played with it, RodgerTheGreat?
19:35:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I haven't- I'm not very knowledgable about hardware, really
19:35:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm mostly a software guy
19:36:00 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry
19:36:13 <RodgerTheGreat> there are other people here who might be more useful in that way
19:52:29 <bjorkintosh> which forth do you use, RodgerTheGreat?
19:52:43 <RodgerTheGreat> mostly either my own or gforth
19:53:22 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: this is when you talk about how ANS Forth isn't actually Forth, I think
19:54:01 <bjorkintosh> haha
19:54:18 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a variety of colorful opinions here
19:54:54 <RodgerTheGreat> are you new to forth or are you a grizzled veteran?
19:55:03 <bjorkintosh> a groupie.
19:55:08 <bjorkintosh> however you spell that.
19:55:10 <bjorkintosh> groupy.
19:55:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the first one is correct
19:55:27 <bjorkintosh> i own a copy of starting forth.
19:55:39 <bjorkintosh> but, i am not sure what to do with it. does it integrate nicely with linux?
19:55:39 <RodgerTheGreat> you're definitely in the club, then
19:55:55 <RodgerTheGreat> there are good forth devtools available on linux, yes
19:56:24 <RodgerTheGreat> if you haven't already installed a forth environment, gforth is very easy to set up and is available from most repositories
19:56:35 <bjorkintosh> yeah i have that.
19:56:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I like it because it has a good manual
19:57:04 <RodgerTheGreat> other people dislike it because it's pretty huge and has a lot of features
19:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> or because it is implemented in C
19:57:36 <bjorkintosh> Oh.
19:58:24 <RodgerTheGreat> it is a fairly inescapable fact that if you want to take advantage of existing libraries you'll have to interact with C, and gforth has facilities for calling C functions
19:58:49 <RodgerTheGreat> of course on embedded systems you're more likely to be able to roll your own everything
19:58:50 <PoppaVic> actually, gforth uses libffi
19:59:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I learn something every day
20:00:05 <PoppaVic> and, of course, gforth would need to leverage libdl to work with outside libs/objects
20:04:47 <I440r> why would something written in c need a forign firmware interface to c libraries?
20:04:48 <I440r> boggle
20:05:07 <RodgerTheGreat> foreign function interface
20:05:26 <I440r> lets add bloatificated over engineered over complicated obfuscations on top of bloatificated over engineered over complicated obfuscations!
20:05:38 <I440r> thats what i meant
20:05:42 <I440r> sorry 
20:06:06 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: so yeah, a variety of opinions
20:06:09 <I440r> this tho is usually where i say "thats what i said!" lol
20:07:25 <bjorkintosh> so, I440r, what is a better alternative to gforth then?
20:07:35 <PoppaVic> hah
20:07:48 <I440r> well im the author of isforth so i favor that one :P~
20:07:54 <I440r> not that im biased or anything
20:08:16 <I440r> tho there are some flaws in the version you can download that i have fixed here
20:08:30 <bjorkintosh> isforth a true forth? :D
20:08:34 <PoppaVic> ..until you break it
20:08:44 <bjorkintosh> what is yours written in, I440r?
20:08:45 <PoppaVic> tjen it's a fifth
20:08:47 <I440r> the forth kernel is written in assembler and forth
20:08:53 <I440r> and all the extensions are in pure forth
20:09:20 <I440r> i dont have an assembler extension or a metacompiler so the kernel is assembled using nasm.  the output of the assembler is identical to what the metacompiler would produce if i had one
20:09:46 * PoppaVic chortles
20:09:59 <I440r> there are things you can do with gforth out of the box that you cannot do with isforth
20:10:11 <I440r> but i consider isforth lighyears better than gforth for a beginner
20:10:22 <I440r> simply for NOT being so HUGE
20:10:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I recommend the JS-Forth on http://repl.it/ to beginners, as it runs in-browser and is fairly convenient for light tinkering
20:10:57 <I440r> thers alot of complex code in isforth but gforths purpose is to be a bloated portable ans compliant forth
20:11:07 <I440r> isforths purpose is to be easy to understand
20:11:29 <I440r> and i am diametrically opposed to the ans standard.  rabidly so
20:11:31 <I440r> grrrr
20:11:58 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, that same level of tinkering can be done with isforyh
20:12:00 <I440r> isforth
20:12:09 <RodgerTheGreat> but you have to install it
20:12:09 <I440r> and you can create turnkey applications with isforth
20:12:13 <I440r> true
20:12:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and it doesn't run on non-x86 machines
20:12:19 <I440r> tar -xjvf is hard! lol
20:12:34 <I440r> heh
20:13:08 <I440r> anyone with a clue about x86 assembler and xyz/whatever assembler could port isforth to a new processor with little effort
20:13:20 <I440r> tathi did it for ppc 
20:13:31 <I440r> but thats not being maintained and is probably broken :)
20:13:47 <I440r> and i think he now milks cows for a living :))
20:13:50 <PoppaVic> hmm.. what did they writer ta - and gzip - with...
20:13:53 <PoppaVic> tar
20:14:32 <bjorkintosh> c?
20:14:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: it doesn't run on BSD either though, right?
20:14:45 <I440r> it used to
20:14:52 <RodgerTheGreat> but you see my point
20:14:59 <bjorkintosh> things break.
20:15:01 <I440r> but bsd's use a different ABI for doing system calls
20:15:08 <I440r> portability is a FUCKING MYTH
20:15:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not dissing your work dude, but from the perspective of "get a forth running on anything" there are better options.
20:15:24 <I440r> you show me any code that will run on linux, x86, ppc, fbsd, openbsd, windows
20:15:37 <RodgerTheGreat> anything I've written in Java
20:15:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I went there
20:15:47 <PoppaVic> hahahaha
20:15:49 <I440r> and ill show you 82645924 different versions of that application interleaved into a complely un fucking readable blob of source puke
20:16:03 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
20:16:06 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, no i know your not dissing isforth
20:16:32 <I440r> but portability is a MYTH.  yes java is portable but the java virtual machine is NOT
20:16:39 <I440r> you have to PORT the virtual machine
20:16:44 <I440r> isforth is a virtual machine
20:16:58 <I440r> i dont have 2865498645984 people working for me to port it to 286592346529874 different architectures
20:17:00 <bjorkintosh> isn't the jvm a stack machine?
20:17:02 <I440r> and i dont give a damn about htat
20:17:29 <I440r> ive never actually looked at how the jvm works internally
20:18:13 <bjorkintosh> it is a stack machine, if i am not completely mistaken.
20:18:16 <I440r> if you take isforths kernel and port it to arm linux. EVERY SINGLE EXTENSION WILL WORK OUT OF THE BOX
20:19:42 <PoppaVic> unless it's broked ;-p
20:20:04 <I440r> the only reason you can compile c sources on all architectures is because of the 50 billion gigabytes of #ifdefines in all the libraries
20:20:27 <I440r> c is NOT portable. you have to mash it with a hammer ot make it port
20:20:46 <I440r> fill your already syntatically cluster fucked sources with even more syntatic cluster fuckification
20:20:56 <bjorkintosh> sounds like job security.
20:21:19 <I440r> sounds like a complete and utter nightmare to me.  its why i HATE c
20:21:41 <bjorkintosh> so what do you do your day to day programming in?
20:21:57 <I440r> my only day to day programming right now is isforth
20:22:02 <I440r> im currently not working
20:22:03 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: the jvm is a stack machine, but of a somewhat different sort. The key difference is that the JVM uses only a single stack
20:22:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and it imposes very rigorous checks on the structure of your programs
20:22:20 <bjorkintosh> i see. a single stack machien then.
20:22:30 <bjorkintosh> (typo)
20:22:35 <RodgerTheGreat> forth's second stack is a really important feature
20:22:53 <RodgerTheGreat> return addresses for procedure calls are disentangled from arguments to words
20:22:54 <I440r> bjorkintosh,  in c for example every single call to a function is compiled as follows.... 
20:23:08 <RodgerTheGreat> as a result, Forth code doesn't need stack frames
20:23:33 <I440r> push parameter, push parameter. call function and bury parameters under return address.  open local stack frame for local variables, do function. clear local stack frame, return ONE VALUE, discard parameters.
20:23:54 <I440r> forth puts return addresses on a separate stack (that you can also use if you keep your pushes and pops balanced)
20:24:14 <I440r> leaving all parameters at the TOP of the parameter stack and allowing you to return any number of result values
20:24:42 <I440r> this makes the overhead for making function calls in c HORRENDOUS. and a complete non event in forth
20:25:32 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
20:25:52 <RodgerTheGreat> in C, a procedure call and return is probably a couple dozen instructions
20:25:57 <I440r> which is why you often see 400 page c functions in/and/but loop nested to the umpteenth level.
20:25:59 <RodgerTheGreat> in Forth, two (or less)
20:26:05 <I440r> because factoring your C makes it run like SHIT
20:26:29 <RodgerTheGreat> this is why C compilers have to do a huge amount of heavy lifting to inline functions and so on to be fast
20:27:01 <RodgerTheGreat> yes, you can remove the overhead by doing compiler optimizations, but it's simpler to just not have to
20:27:42 <I440r> isforth does no compiler optimizations but has some neat tricks that allow YOU to do some optimizations... (tricks that are currently broken in the downloadable verison lol)
20:27:53 <I440r> tho its still usable!
20:28:01 <I440r> and im working towards doing a new release
20:28:12 <I440r> i just have to rewrite the decompiler and debugger...
20:28:13 <RodgerTheGreat> many forth compilers do peephole (local) optimizations
20:28:27 <I440r> i know forth doesnt need a debugger, isforths debugger is intended as a visual helper
20:28:28 <RodgerTheGreat> but on stack code peephole optimizations actually work really well
20:28:33 <I440r> show the beginner how forth executes
20:28:54 <RodgerTheGreat> and forth's dual stack system also makes tail-call optimization trivial as a peephole optimization
20:29:05 <I440r> rodger yes they do because a push the result followed by a pop to work on it can be optimized out.. as one example
20:29:47 <RodgerTheGreat> TCO in forth is "if you see a CALL followed immediately by a RETURN in a program, make the CALL a JUMP"
20:29:48 <I440r> peephole optimizations are basiclaly lists of possible opcode patterns with replacement patterns for them
20:29:49 <RodgerTheGreat> that's it
20:30:04 <I440r> yea isforth allows YOU to do that
20:30:13 <I440r> : foo lots of forth code here ;
20:30:17 <I440r> : bar ........ foo ;
20:30:18 <RodgerTheGreat> TCO is significantly harder in functional languages, as I can personally attest
20:30:20 <I440r> or
20:30:27 <I440r> : bar ....... goto foo ;
20:30:42 <I440r> the "goto" helps prevent needless return stack pushes and pops
20:30:58 <bjorkintosh> have you ported it to the raspberry pi?
20:31:10 <I440r> i dont have one yet :(
20:31:29 <bjorkintosh> ah. i assumed you had the ARM instruction set memorized :D
20:31:31 <I440r> but i would love to do so lol. but i need to find work
20:31:34 <RodgerTheGreat> my forth just does peephole optimizations and folds constant operations and so on so that I don't have to clutter my factoring with optimization details and so that I don't miss them
20:31:48 <I440r> i have 8051 opcodes pretty much memorized when im working on 8051 assembler lol
20:32:01 <I440r> and my avr assembler is FREEEEEEKING awesome even if i do say so myself lol
20:32:03 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes you get a situation that is tail recursive just sort of by accident and in that case my compiler catches it without me having to worry
20:32:19 <bjorkintosh> how clever of your compiler!
20:32:21 <RodgerTheGreat> but it's still all simple enough that I can look at code and know exactly how it will compile
20:32:34 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: like I said, it's a really simple rule
20:32:38 <I440r> im opposed to compiler optimizations because it destroys the 1:1 corelation between source and object
20:32:47 <RodgerTheGreat> see these opcodes, replace with these opcodes
20:32:55 <I440r> but i would write an optimizer if i was going to create a commercial forth
20:33:23 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, or "see these opcodes mased with these bits" replace with "these opcodes"
20:33:30 <bjorkintosh> is there a mathematical 'theory of forth'?
20:33:43 <I440r> i.e. a push of r0 and a pop of r1 could be replaced with a move r1 into r0
20:33:52 <I440r> bjorkintosh, lets put it this way
20:34:06 <I440r> forth is one of the only languages that you cant very easilly (if at all) express in BNF
20:34:27 <I440r> and there are almost NO editors outside of a forth environment that can reliably syntax highlight forth
20:34:31 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: there is a theoretical background for the family of concatenative languages, of which Forth is the oldest member
20:34:42 <I440r> sublime text 2 with my plugin does good tho :)
20:35:01 <RodgerTheGreat> concatenative combinators are a theoretical system equivalent to the lambda calculus which can be used as a basis for understanding computation
20:35:02 <bjorkintosh> i see.
20:35:34 <I440r> using math to explain how math works... lol
20:35:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: y'know, C++ doesn't have a grammar either. :)
20:35:45 <bjorkintosh> I440r, i am not sure i follow. why is it so difficult to properly highlight forth?
20:35:48 <I440r> c++ has syntax
20:35:55 <I440r> forth has user defined syntax
20:36:04 <I440r> one example
20:36:12 <I440r>  ' blah alias fud
20:36:21 <I440r> almsot every editor will think that line is a string
20:36:43 <bjorkintosh> yeah if you tell it to think that!
20:36:57 <I440r> forth has user defined syntax.  how do you color highlight a syntax that is "user defined"
20:37:08 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: features like comments and string literals are primitive syntax in other languages. In forth, they're written in forth. Forth has very powerful metaprogramming capabilities
20:37:18 <I440r> i.e. you mold forth to your ourpose, you MODIFY forths syntax
20:37:21 <I440r> you add to it
20:37:31 <I440r> you can even CHANGE syntax that already exists
20:37:35 <I440r> : foo ...... ;
20:37:40 <I440r> no reason why you cannot do 
20:37:47 <bjorkintosh> geezus christ. i will never get beyond simple arithmetic in this language.
20:37:47 <I440r> : foo a different definition for foo here ;
20:37:53 <RodgerTheGreat> when I edit forth I usually just want coloring for strings and comments
20:38:01 <I440r> bjorkintosh, thats a VERY common misconception
20:38:02 <bjorkintosh> i know that is possible, I440r. and you can 'forget' things.
20:38:07 <I440r> yes
20:38:29 <I440r> bjorkintosh, forth is different from pretty jmuch any other language. the way you think it, the way you write it
20:38:33 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: Forth has a somewhat unique scoping system which is technically called "hyperstatic scope"
20:38:39 <I440r> its SO different people turn away because "i cant think that way"
20:38:42 <I440r> they are wrong
20:38:50 <RodgerTheGreat> every use of a name refers to the closest lexically previous definition of that name
20:38:56 <I440r> once you get over that initial hurdle forth becomes TRIVIAL to use and understand
20:39:24 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, close...  closest lexical previous definition that is currently in scope :)
20:39:26 <RodgerTheGreat> you can shadow names, redefine names, forget names, keep names locally accessible but invisible outside of your module and so on
20:39:36 <bjorkintosh> i understand the stack manipulation words and i can visualize what they do. beyond that ... 
20:39:38 <bjorkintosh> nada.
20:39:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: yeah depends on the precise semantics of your :
20:39:59 <I440r> RodgerTheGreat, and of the context stack is what i meant
20:40:05 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
20:40:06 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
20:40:13 <I440r> bjorkintosh, think of this.  forht has a word called "and"
20:40:23 <I440r> but the assembler also has an opcode called "and"
20:40:31 <I440r> both can exist at the same time and NOT conflic with each other
20:40:52 <I440r> because the assembler version of and is only ever visible (in context) when you are defining assembler definitions
20:41:31 <I440r> bjorkintosh, do not think that forth is beyond you.  most C coders cannot write a C compiler from scratch.  Most BEGINNER forth coders can write a basic forth compiler from scratch.
20:41:44 <RodgerTheGreat> in fact it's often the first thing they do
20:41:46 <I440r> learn forth and within a year you will be able to write your own forht compiler if you so chose
20:41:55 <I440r> its also the best firtst thing you can do
20:41:59 <RodgerTheGreat> and not just write one, write one in a few afternoons
20:42:19 <I440r> even if your writing a THROW AWAY compiler simply to learn the language
20:42:48 <RodgerTheGreat> the downside to learning forth is that you'll never take anybody seriously when they talk about "simple" programming languages
20:42:50 <RodgerTheGreat> :)
20:42:56 <I440r> yes. you can write a complete avr or 8051 or whatever forth in one afternoon.
20:43:29 <I440r> if you keep the target kernel minimal it doesnt take long to create that target kernel
20:43:53 <I440r> the down side to forth is that nobody who doesnt know it well will ever take IT seriously
20:44:16 <RodgerTheGreat> when you begin with a forth kernel you essentially have a really nice assembler that can be extended. As you write your application, you build up the language until it is powerful enough to express your program concisely and clearly
20:44:22 <I440r> forth will never have the popularity that C does :)
20:44:36 <I440r> well put
20:45:05 <I440r> bjorkintosh, isforths kernel is assembled with the nasm assembler.  
20:45:17 <I440r> that kernel is a very powerful forth compiler in its own right
20:45:21 <RodgerTheGreat> chuck moore, the designer of the language, has said something to the effect that writing programs in forth is impossible. You use forth to build a better language for your task.
20:45:26 <I440r> but... it has very little utility value in that state
20:45:52 <I440r> thats what you do. you define what forth is. your definition of forth becomes the definition that solves your problem
20:46:13 <RodgerTheGreat> so you can also think of forth as basically a toolbox of ideas and a way of thinking about solving problems
20:46:19 <bjorkintosh> sure.
20:46:20 <I440r> bjorkintosh, the isforht kernel is then asked to compile extensions.  in forth you dont compile to a separate buffer.
20:46:28 <I440r> the code you compile gets added onto what you now have
20:46:29 <bjorkintosh> still can't do anything in it yet. i can add :D
20:46:33 <RodgerTheGreat> keeping things as simple as possible, reusing pieces wherever you can, breaking problems down into very small parts
20:46:34 <bjorkintosh> see, 2 2 + .
20:46:35 <I440r> so the extensions EXTEND the kernel.
20:46:35 <bjorkintosh> voila!
20:46:48 <I440r> the extened kernel is saved out and you have a full blown development system
20:47:08 <I440r> brb
20:48:02 <RodgerTheGreat> in conventional languages there is a hard separation between "compile time" and "run time". In forth, these phases are interwoven
20:48:46 <RodgerTheGreat> when you're compiling a definition you can drop out to the language and do some computation
20:48:59 <RodgerTheGreat> when you're executing code you can invoke pieces of the compiler
20:49:51 <RodgerTheGreat> so you don't need separate "build tools" and "debuggers" and "compilers", they're all part of one programming environment
20:50:19 <bjorkintosh> i get all that. but i am not getting that sense as of chapter 6 of starting forth.
20:51:09 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, just starting loops
20:51:17 <RodgerTheGreat> well, you must walk before you can run
20:51:31 <RodgerTheGreat> it takes a little while to wrap your mind around how all the pieces fit together
20:51:51 <RodgerTheGreat> but you can fit the whole thing in your head
20:53:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I teach introductory programming classes and some after-school programs with kids
20:53:52 <RodgerTheGreat> and my favorite thing about Starting Forth is what it uses as the first thing to teach:
20:53:57 <RodgerTheGreat> how to break up a task into procedures
20:54:12 <RodgerTheGreat> in no other language is that the first thing you learn
20:54:17 <bjorkintosh> which language do you teach the intro courses in?
20:54:22 <RodgerTheGreat> but it really is the most important idea in programming
20:54:43 <bjorkintosh> i thought the most important idea was abstracting :)
20:54:44 <RodgerTheGreat> Java, and I have been teaching kids with BASIC and Logo
20:54:50 <bjorkintosh> logo?!
20:54:54 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: factoring is abstraction
20:54:55 <bjorkintosh> do you know what year this is?
20:55:07 <RodgerTheGreat> still a fucking great year to teach with Logo
20:55:15 <bjorkintosh> haha.
20:55:16 <RodgerTheGreat> Logo is quite powerful, actually
20:55:20 <bjorkintosh> i know this.
20:55:26 <bjorkintosh> what are you using, ucb?
20:55:36 <RodgerTheGreat> a homespun logo
20:55:41 <RodgerTheGreat> written in forth
20:55:46 <bjorkintosh> hahah.
20:55:54 <bjorkintosh> are the sources available?
20:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/demos/Loko/Loko.fs
20:56:07 <RodgerTheGreat> absolutely
20:56:27 <RodgerTheGreat> my forth compiler is a little strange in some ways but the essential ideas are there
20:57:04 <RodgerTheGreat> Loko is not as well factored as it could be, but it's a work in progress
20:57:14 <bjorkintosh> nice. do you have screen shots?
20:57:17 <RodgerTheGreat> along the way I have come up with many ways to simplify it should I start over
20:57:24 <RodgerTheGreat> sure
20:57:28 <bjorkintosh> or is there no turtle graphics?
20:57:34 <RodgerTheGreat> there are turtle graphics
20:57:47 <RodgerTheGreat> the whole thing is a graphical IDE which looks kinda like a retro computer
20:58:11 <bjorkintosh> what does it run on?
20:58:35 <RodgerTheGreat> my VM, which has a Java implementation as well as a C implementation
20:58:40 <RodgerTheGreat> so it'll run on almost anything
21:00:06 <RodgerTheGreat> here are some slightly old screenshots: http://imgur.com/b8yVo,GAR8x,ozQew#0
21:00:08 <bjorkintosh> why didn't you write loko in java?
21:00:18 <RodgerTheGreat> a) it's more fun this way
21:00:31 <RodgerTheGreat> b) actually some aspects of the interpreter are a fair bit easier to write this way
21:00:46 <bjorkintosh> badass.
21:00:52 <bjorkintosh> i like the screen shot.
21:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> to do TCO in a lisplike language you have to do stack-smashing or rewrite everything in continuation-passing style, which is rather unnatural
21:01:24 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: most importantly the kids have a lot of fun with it. :)
21:01:35 <bjorkintosh> what about sound? 
21:01:37 <RodgerTheGreat> there are 3 screenshots in that link
21:01:51 <RodgerTheGreat> my VM has audio capabilities but I haven't exposed them to logo yet
21:01:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I could
21:02:11 <bjorkintosh> that's what i loved about BASIC.
21:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the BASIC I use is also written in Forth
21:02:26 <bjorkintosh> you could generate sounds very simply, and do graphics very easily.
21:02:41 <bjorkintosh> and then came all the other languages.
21:02:48 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/demos/Masica/MASICA.fs
21:02:51 <I440r> isnt logo basically lisp?
21:02:57 <bjorkintosh> I440r, nah.
21:03:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I440r: yep. Dynamically-scoped lisp.
21:03:04 <bjorkintosh> it was heavily inspired by it.
21:03:34 <RodgerTheGreat> with more "complex" but more human-friendly syntax
21:03:42 <I440r> so was forth. the inadaquicies of lisp made CM invent forth :)
21:03:56 <RodgerTheGreat> the guts of Logo are the same as a lisp
21:04:02 <bjorkintosh> eh? i thought it was the inadequacies of the machine he was forced to work with?
21:04:11 <I440r> no he was a lisp coder
21:04:14 <bjorkintosh> really?
21:04:18 <I440r> yes
21:04:18 <bjorkintosh> wow.
21:04:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I think chuck actually learned lisp from McCarthy
21:04:31 <bjorkintosh> remarkable.
21:04:38 <RodgerTheGreat> Forth was invented in the early 1970s
21:04:42 <I440r> is mccarthy the guy that invented lisp?
21:04:46 <RodgerTheGreat> yes
21:04:49 <RodgerTheGreat> John McCarthy
21:05:23 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.catonmat.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/john-mccarthy-programming-wrong.jpg
21:05:24 <I440r> well i got my menu bar/menu item/sub menu item creating words complete.  
21:05:34 <I440r> now i have to write the menu display code :)
21:07:39 <bjorkintosh> is it possible to use forth on the arduino?
21:07:39 <RodgerTheGreat> man this channel has been really active today
21:07:42 <RodgerTheGreat> it's great
21:07:51 <bjorkintosh> sorry. i woke people up with my silly questions.
21:07:52 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: well there are definitely AVR forths
21:08:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've seen some forth implementations running on ardruino
21:08:48 <RodgerTheGreat> well we were also talking with anannie earlier about the relative merits of laptop manufacturers among other things
21:09:25 <I440r> bjorkintosh, i have an as yet unreleased avr forth
21:09:31 <I440r> for the atmega32u4
21:09:41 <I440r> it will be released soon ish
21:09:42 <bjorkintosh> i thought laptop mfg'ers all had "taiwan" as their last name.
21:09:52 <bjorkintosh> first/middle "made in"
21:10:37 <bjorkintosh> i have an arduino uno here. i thought it would be neat to talk to it directly in forth.
21:10:52 <RodgerTheGreat> like over the serial port?
21:10:59 <I440r> what avr chip does that use?
21:11:19 <RodgerTheGreat> do you want the forth environment to run on the chip, or do you want to just deploy code to the chip and poke at it from the desktop?
21:11:23 <RodgerTheGreat> both are possible
21:11:30 <bjorkintosh> 328P-PU
21:11:33 <bjorkintosh> atmel 1113
21:11:46 <bjorkintosh> atmega328P-PU
21:11:58 <bjorkintosh> RodgerTheGreat, both.
21:11:59 <I440r> my forth would probably run on that as is
21:12:28 <I440r> tho i dont have the tethering done yet, need to develop both ends of that
21:12:37 <I440r> for my 32u4 im going to use USB CDC
21:12:45 <I440r> for other devices RS-232
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21:22:27 <RodgerTheGreat> bjorkintosh: so would you say you are now more intrigued by Forth?
21:22:44 <I440r> how about "more interested in learning it fully?" 
21:23:00 <I440r> lots of people become intrigued and still dont bother to learn :)
21:23:05 <I440r> our loss and theirs
21:25:51 <bjorkintosh> RodgerTheGreat, i have always been intrigued by it.
21:26:05 <bjorkintosh> i just haven't been able to use it for anything.
21:26:20 <bjorkintosh> what I440r said.
21:26:29 * RodgerTheGreat high-fives I440r 
21:26:36 <RodgerTheGreat> we did good, buddy
21:26:37 <bjorkintosh> not sure how to take it to the next level either. 
21:26:50 <I440r> lol
21:26:53 <RodgerTheGreat> with us as your guides, no harm shall befall you
21:26:55 <bjorkintosh> shoe-horning it onto the arduino would be fun.
21:27:08 <I440r> bjorkintosh,  first step, dont give up :)
21:27:31 <I440r> when learning a new language the initial PROBLEM you have to solve is coming up with some project to do in it
21:27:38 <I440r> not "what can it do"
21:27:41 <bjorkintosh> of course.
21:27:43 <I440r> but "what can i do with it so i can learn"
21:27:53 <bjorkintosh> and with forth, it is writing a forth in forth right?
21:28:42 <RodgerTheGreat> there's that
21:28:53 <bjorkintosh> i would like to do that, i think.
21:28:55 <RodgerTheGreat> you can even do the usual things like solving project euler problems
21:29:13 <RodgerTheGreat> when I started I just began implementing classic algorithms
21:29:20 <I440r> i cant solve those :)
21:29:25 <RodgerTheGreat> it was really slow and hard at first but it slowly became more natural
21:29:27 <bjorkintosh> i am a little bored of using it as a calculator.
21:29:45 <RodgerTheGreat> now I write Forth almost as fluently as I write Java
21:31:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm gonna turn in for the night, guys- 'later
21:32:19 <bjorkintosh> thanks. night.
21:32:24 <I440r> nite
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21:38:14 <bjorkintosh> I440r, what do you think of pforth?
21:39:59 <I440r> ive never used it, but if my memory serves me right... thats for mac?
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21:40:26 <bjorkintosh> it is working just fine on ubuntu.
21:40:46 <I440r> oh? pforth is for x86?
21:41:15 <I440r> pretty much NO compiler you chose right now will be a bad choice
21:43:49 <PoppaVic> pforth and pfe work on ubuntu
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22:38:09 <I440r> lots of people coming in here now! wonder if they are just bots cruising or if they are interested potential victims :)
22:39:12 <bjorkintosh> victims of what?
22:40:07 <I440r> forth :)
22:41:36 <bjorkintosh> I440r, ever seen appliance.io ?
22:42:15 <I440r> no?
22:42:18 <bjorkintosh> well, there is nothing there now, except for dead links.
22:42:46 <bjorkintosh> but they are documents for the canon cat. a machine with (everything?) written in forth.
22:42:59 <I440r> yea im familiar with the cat :)
22:43:21 <bjorkintosh> sounds like a neat device.
22:43:42 <bjorkintosh> now that there are so many cheap non-x86 alternatives, it seems like a good time to revisit and reimplement some of those ideas.
22:48:36 <kumul> I440r, pforth, the p is for portable, it runs everywhere supposedly
22:49:05 <I440r> aha
22:49:08 <bjorkintosh> really? that's great.
22:49:17 <I440r> not in my book lol
22:49:51 <kumul> its a bit slow bjorkintosh, so youll have to wait if you decide to do those euler problems in a brute force way
22:50:10 <bjorkintosh> i don't want to do any project euler problems though!
22:50:31 <bjorkintosh> maaaybe months from now, but not now.
22:50:42 <kumul> I440r, well, native unix client done in assembly?
22:50:57 <I440r> ?
22:51:03 <I440r> isforth?
22:51:27 <kumul> != portable; i mean
22:51:34 <I440r> oh
22:51:48 <I440r> well portability is a myth
22:51:52 <I440r> like the man month
22:52:20 <kumul> isnt forth the most portable language?
22:52:31 <bjorkintosh> no. algorithms are :)
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22:53:10 <I440r> kumul, one of. its the kernels that are not portable
22:53:13 <kumul> well, algorithms rely on math, implementations on compilers
22:53:20 <I440r> but thats true of java too as i said earlier
22:53:50 <bjorkintosh> oh! just target the jvm.
22:53:52 <bjorkintosh> and voila!
22:53:58 <bjorkintosh> or javascript. etc.
22:54:06 <kumul> HEY! ASau ! i thought you were dead welcome back :)
22:54:43 <kumul> but is the jvm that portable?
22:55:03 <bjorkintosh> yeah.
22:55:26 <bjorkintosh> works on at least 2 platforms.
22:55:38 <kumul> ?
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22:57:11 <bjorkintosh> was a joke, kumul.
22:59:18 <kumul> bb
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