00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.12.30 00:30:55 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 00:32:40 --- quit: tgunr_ (Quit: I'm outta here) 01:17:26 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:23:02 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 01:23:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v protist 01:47:41 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 02:02:37 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.173) joined #forth 02:02:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 02:16:28 --- quit: anannie (Remote host closed the connection) 04:12:54 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 04:12:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 05:09:19 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 05:09:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +v fantazo 05:25:06 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.156) joined #forth 05:25:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 05:51:43 --- join: anannie (~anannie@95.211.99.11) joined #forth 05:51:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v anannie 06:19:28 anannie: hello :) 06:23:11 Hey protist! 07:27:59 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@240.sub-70-194-73.myvzw.com) joined #forth 07:27:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 09:30:56 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:35:22 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-166-23.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 09:35:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion 09:40:15 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Lost terminal) 10:07:24 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.181) joined #forth 10:07:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 11:34:01 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:40:34 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 11:40:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 11:47:26 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 11:48:35 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 11:48:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 11:59:06 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12:06:03 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 12:07:08 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:07:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 12:09:34 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 12:09:57 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.172) joined #forth 12:09:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 12:12:07 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 12:13:07 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:13:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 12:19:29 --- quit: karswell (*.net *.split) 12:19:29 --- quit: Adeon (*.net *.split) 12:19:46 --- join: Adeon (~silakat@109.73.169.52) joined #forth 12:19:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Adeon 12:21:51 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12:24:42 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 12:24:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 12:28:39 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 12:31:08 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:31:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 12:35:22 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 12:36:38 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:36:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 12:41:03 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 12:43:05 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.165) joined #forth 12:43:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 12:43:40 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:43:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 12:48:22 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12:49:38 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 12:49:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 12:54:03 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:05:36 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:49:11 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 13:49:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre-laptop 15:19:37 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 15:19:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ncv 15:39:24 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 15:45:52 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 15:49:36 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 15:49:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 16:06:08 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@static.88-198-159-196.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 16:06:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 16:09:21 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:14:07 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@240.sub-70-194-73.myvzw.com) joined #forth 16:14:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 16:36:34 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:13:57 --- join: PoppaVic (~pv@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 17:13:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v PoppaVic 17:14:36 * PoppaVic takes a booth in the back.. 17:14:45 lol 17:14:53 everyone:P is welcome here 17:15:14 I miss it, and ##C is making my brain explode. 17:17:38 c will do that to you 17:19:21 it's the newbs, homework, and the lack of willingness to read.. Could be thinking as well, but that just maybe be broken. 17:28:14 Soo.. what's the latest structure[d] debate? 17:30:43 * PoppaVic chuckles to "Mr & Mrs Smith".. ;-) 17:31:31 the movie? 17:32:18 yeah.. I love all the secret panels and goodies - and of course renovating and "marriage counselfing" by beating each other to ddeath is a win as well ;-) 17:33:09 sliding pictures are ok, but the trick oven was great 17:42:37 lol 17:42:42 its one of my fave movies 17:46:12 THe whole make-up sex-thing looked really painful.. lotsa' broken glass and stuff. 17:47:04 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 17:47:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 17:47:19 hi tgunr_ :) 17:47:28 hey 17:47:47 where do i know you from? is it in here or was it undernet #coders? 17:47:57 just turned on the laptop, hmm 17:48:08 i KNOW i know you from somewhere but the old timers disease is beating me to death today heh 17:48:14 well, used to run the OpenFirmware department at Apple ? 17:48:26 aha 17:48:28 used to? 17:48:36 do apple still use OF? 17:48:43 Retired in 2005 when they went to EFI 17:48:50 nope, only in the labs 17:48:57 yea efi needs to die a death 17:49:33 do you still code forth at all? 17:49:59 been learning Factor lately http://factorcode.org 17:50:09 yea i know the guy that wrote it :P~ 17:50:10 lol 17:50:53 Ah, Slava? 17:51:06 Not much in Forth these days 17:51:08 of jedit fame 17:51:26 im the author of isforth 17:51:34 Never used jedit, but Factor is pretty awesome piece of work 17:51:44 ah, ok now I recall 17:52:31 i just rewrote my memory manager. took me 3 weeks to fix a very very subtle bug in the new code 17:52:44 got that working, got drunk, made some change somwhere else... cant find what i broke 17:52:56 been searching for whats causing my segfault for 3 days lol 17:53:01 dont ever code drunk! 17:53:43 ha, yeah, once spent 3 months on a M68000 bug, which was reversing 2 two registers when they got pushed on the stack during an interrupt 17:54:45 you use GIT or other DVCS? That saves my butt a lot on those kinds of things 17:54:53 i use svn 17:55:13 i wont use dvcs because there isnt anyone currently i would trust enough to do parallel development of it 17:55:30 but for the past few months my svn server has been down 17:55:32 Yuck, gave up on SVN years ago 17:55:39 GIT or Mercurial can regress a bug in a few minutes 17:55:50 so can svn if i was using it 17:55:58 i couldnt afford to run my svn server 17:56:01 :) 17:56:08 even NOW im out of work and running out of funds 17:56:21 arrg, that can be rough 17:56:21 I know that feeling 17:56:49 yes, been there a few times myself 17:57:32 I'm down to the last K, and it ain't pretty. 17:58:30 im not gona panic 17:58:34 god will provide 17:58:54 what part of the country are you in? 17:59:09 right now im in ill-annoy 17:59:31 but if someone in east podunk wanted to offer me a job i can be there the day after tomorrow :P 17:59:37 * tgunr_ is from indiana originally 17:59:48 my sister lives in columbus 17:59:55 i just drove back from visiting there over xmas 18:00:03 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Quit: Leaving) 18:00:14 my drivers license is indiana. my sisters house is my official residence 18:00:25 i have an indiana carry permit 18:00:29 and an arizona one too 18:00:34 woot 18:00:47 Well, if you need access to a server I can help out there 18:01:16 well i COULD get ron oliver (who hosts www.isforth.com) to put up an svn server 18:01:27 Yeah, my plan is to start back toward phoenix tomorrow or the next morning. (trying to avoid the newyears morons) 18:01:31 but ive resisted asking him that 18:01:40 Ha, just picked up a Remington 870 at the BX a couple hours ago at Beale AFB 18:01:46 u live in phoenix poppa/? 18:01:59 thas where i want to be. i worked there for 2+ years 18:02:01 in tempe 18:02:12 nice :) 18:02:21 No. I've spent the last month+ in Bakersfield.. I'd hoped for work hereabouts, but that's a bust. 18:02:29 my carry pistol is a kimber classic custom 1911 45acp 18:02:43 nice 18:02:50 poppa are you mobile? 18:03:00 i mean. can you work anywhere in the country? 18:03:04 I've not even taken aything out to shoot or reloaded since I left MI.. 18:03:05 They had some nice 1911 there also, but I already have enough pistols 18:03:08 say contract work? 18:03:27 tgunr_, err no such thing as enough pistols, enough coffee, enough women or enough money 18:03:33 LOL 18:03:51 notice i didnt say alcohol :/ 18:03:54 * I440r hides 18:04:01 I live in bear country now, and figured a 12 gauge was a better all around choice 18:04:25 erm. i would actually prefer a 1911 there 18:04:31 I440r: Once I buried mom, I bought a truck & trailer. I worked in CO for the summer, and then tried over in Bullhead City, then bakersfield. I've never gotten a programming gig in my life. 18:05:02 Most of my career has been as a Forth programmer 18:05:08 PoppaVic, could you hack a programming job? 18:05:17 i mean as a contractor 18:05:29 you are knowledgable about C but... can you code? 18:05:31 but now dabbling in obj-c and Factor 18:05:40 It'd be nice to get a foot in. I440r I have no idea: I've always just coded what interested me - C and some forth. 18:05:48 i can give you contact numbers for various agencies 18:06:10 you would get contracts doing C... what i did when i started was MAKE UP a resume 18:06:24 most places dont even bother checking them for being valid when its contract work 18:06:40 as i completed a contract i deleted a BS item i made up and put the contract i just finished at the top 18:06:46 i dont have any BS on my resume now 18:07:13 can you do GUI work? what sort of code do you write? im limited to realtime embedded because thats the only thing ive ever done 18:07:40 I've avoided gui work for years. 18:08:08 me 2 :P~ 18:08:16 kip is trying to get me into PIC's, so I am glaring at their C compilers, assemblers and muttering about forth again ;-) 18:08:23 erm no 18:08:26 pics are HORRIBLE 18:08:40 tell him to explain what the skid bucket is for 18:08:58 PICs are one of the single worst uC's to develop for 18:09:05 Trust me: I find the little things intriguing, but my hw assortment in a 24' trailer are limited ;-) 18:09:25 right. dont get pic. go to www.adafruit.com and get an atmega32u4 breakout board 18:09:39 im 90% of the way thru developing a forth for one of those 18:09:55 i have the avr assembler written and a kludgy direct threaded implementation 18:10:05 yep, I bookmarked their site for a number of things. If the Marriott comes thru, I'll be in the black again. 18:10:22 Give a hour if you need access to a server guy 18:10:27 shout 18:10:27 i want to make a sub threaded version and offer the direct as free and the sub threaded at a small fee 18:10:41 tgunr_, kk. 18:10:42 stupid spell checker 18:10:45 lol 18:10:50 hmm. 18:10:55 i disabled auto sentence mangler on my android phone 18:11:04 i kept messaging gobbldegook to my sister 18:11:09 I would think direct threaded would be more compact, the other much larger. 18:11:12 like people who just had a stroke do lol 18:11:27 direct threaded is also easier for me to mentally visualize 18:11:52 {call interpreter, thing, thing, thing....} 18:11:52 but the sub threaded would enable minimal peephole optimizations and would probably be much smaller 18:12:19 none of the creating is done on the target tho. its all done from the host 18:12:38 its not quite a tethered forth though. i need to write the USB CDC tethering 18:12:39 --- join: kumul (~kumul@67.224.165.150) joined #forth 18:12:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +v kumul 18:12:45 yes, what's the speed compare? direct-thread should be about what.. 5-10x slower than assembler itself? 18:13:14 i find not so. i see no degridation of execution speed simply for being direct threaded 18:13:25 and im breaking ALL the modern optimiztion rules with isforht 18:13:32 like interleaving data and code etc etc 18:13:47 ugh 18:13:52 you wildman 18:13:55 its part of why im opposed to any form of opcode level optimization 18:14:06 tho... it would be interesting to do an optimizer 18:14:31 I leave optimizer and such to what'shisnose over in germany 18:14:32 isforth breaks all the rules and compiles over 2 megs of source code per second on pretty much any machine you care to try it on 18:14:51 I thought isforth was still i386? 18:15:06 on my old amd k6-3/550 laptop that i originally developed it on i was doing 800k per seond 18:15:09 it is still 32 bits 18:15:18 not interested in doing 64 bit x86 18:15:58 hehe.. knife to the leg ;-) 18:16:10 given the resources (people with a clue) i could port the entire firefox web browser to isforth and compile the entire thing in under 3 seonds 18:16:25 and that would require an X interface and an entire X toolkit to be compiled as part of it 18:16:34 it would STILl all be compiled in under 3 seconds 18:16:43 who the FUCK needs optimization? 18:17:03 I've really never found a GUI kit didn't make me ill.. Not sure if it's the authors or the interfaces. 18:17:06 optimization is a horrendously bad idea. it destroys the 1:1 corelation between source and object 18:17:25 thats how i feel about C when im not being paid $50 an hour :) 18:18:08 optimizations are a translation-stage. My personal feeling is you get it to run, then run right, THEN think about smaller or faster. 18:19:14 do assemblers have optimize settings, nowadays? 18:19:17 i disagree 18:19:21 small is not important 18:19:24 fast is not important 18:19:29 looking cool is not important 18:19:41 the single most important thing you can do for your code is to make it readable. PERIOD 18:19:47 this is even more important than making it work 18:19:54 as stated on my isforth site 18:19:56 small or fast might well matter, but it's rarely a priority to me - remember: I just code for myself. 18:20:15 if small was important everyone would be using forth for embedded apps 18:20:19 small is not important 18:20:38 and only an idiot thinks optimizations are required to make the end product fast 18:21:03 opcode level optimizations are inherantly buggy and give you a very small speed increase 18:21:14 optimize your algorithms and you will see much better resuls 18:21:16 i4: well most of the Forth Community would disagree about readability - I've seen their examples for years. I do agree that code I plan to use over and over, I sure like to be readable and repairable any hour, and including when I've been drinking. 18:21:35 hmm 18:21:43 you go ahead and optimize your bubble sort out the wazzoo its still never going to perform as well as my badly optimized but very readable radix counting sort 18:22:19 well yes. very few coders write readable code. mostly they do clusterfuck formatting 18:22:28 and scatter brained "Clever" stuff 18:22:29 I guess "opcode optimization" is what is confuses me. Most optimizers look for patterns and reduce them, but I still think of that as being a human job of factoring. 18:22:44 http://g.oswego.edu/dl/html/malloc.html 18:22:48 thers an awesme example 18:22:52 totally un fucking readable 18:23:37 very nice description of the method used in the allocator... sources are totally beyond redemption however 18:23:41 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 18:23:59 ive had people come in here on different occasions and tell me they dont code asm, dont code forth but can read my sources 18:24:32 source is nearly as documented as the html That's one of those "it works, run with it" files that I would almost never use.. Never is very close to 100% there 18:24:38 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 18:24:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 18:24:50 wb 18:24:56 you probably DO use it lol 18:25:08 the guy that wrote that was the maintainer of glib for a long time 18:25:16 its the memory manager used within glib too i believe 18:25:24 its well proved code 18:25:29 If I use it, it's transparent. malloc & free are simple. 18:25:53 and he sets -O0 i believe and put a gazillion macros in the sources so he could hand optimize it 18:26:08 he claims thers no optimizer capable of optimizing that code as reliably as he does himself 18:26:41 well, that approaches the asm-finicky of some other folks, yes 18:27:05 my badly optimized, breaks all the rules about cache hits memory manager allocates 40 thousand buffers of random size from 16 bytes to 16k bytes and then deallocates them all in a random order 18:27:26 merging free regions as it goes 18:27:40 and completes the 40 thousand allocations and 40 thousand deallocations in 6 minutes 18:28:00 and if i add skip lists to the allocation search it will drop that down to about 2 or 3 minutes 18:28:16 so why does he need 38465294652 unreadable macros ? 18:28:40 he's prolly focused on a single problem and solution. 18:28:47 because the optimizer isnt good enoug.. really he should rewrite it with NO macros and keep it -O0 18:29:12 And, perhaps in his mind those macros improve readability? 18:29:15 its a general purpose memory manager and does some very clever heuristics internally 18:29:33 no... they are how he does the optimiation 18:29:53 macros are guaranteed to be inlined are they not? 18:29:58 specially at -O0 18:30:12 inline functions are not guaranteed to inline at all 18:30:18 to make it worse: it's GNU style, and I try to walk away from that ;-) 18:30:29 llvm ftw 18:30:43 if only gentoo could dump 100% of gnu for llvm 18:31:07 inlines, yes - need not inline. It's a hint and no more. 18:32:38 inlining is also something i objecyt to however 18:32:41 I've never coded in llvm - never found a sensible sample and docs. Idea sounded interesting. 18:32:47 just make those fucking macros separate functions 18:33:13 hahahaha - if he made them funcs, he'd cry at the "loss of speed". 18:33:35 which he would be able to benchmark after doing 40 million allocations and frees 18:33:46 look it tool 1/100 of a second longer now! 18:33:49 took 18:34:03 maybe even 1 whole second. 18:34:46 not on my machine. he probaby wouldnt even see 1/100 of a difference :P 18:35:04 tho i need to redo my memory managers smoke test 18:35:29 what i need to do is make it a timed thing. allocate up to 40 thousand allocations but do allocations and frees randomly 18:35:56 not just do 40k allocs then 40k random ordered frees 18:36:19 the intent not being to profile the memory manager but literally to smoke test it 18:36:39 i trust it 100% but i might be biased :) 18:37:50 I've never had an issue with malloc/free since the days of cp/m.. Mind you, running out of heap on a CP/M machine was fairly common - so you filemerged and shit 18:38:28 my father ran cpm way back 18:38:37 i never had to deal with it 18:39:32 CP/M was fun. 18:39:37 the filepathspec is much nicer on *nix than the "sections" were in cp/m, but we managed to wordprocess, database, etc 18:40:09 And you forgot the ubiquitous "overlays", PoppaVic. Any sizable app used overlays a lot. :) 18:40:14 mind you, having to unassemble the system, to add/remove a driver, and reassemble was fun ;-) 18:40:23 * ttmrichter had source. 18:40:37 source for cpm? 18:40:44 ttmrichter: well, yeah - TP and TC all the time, but I was speaking more to the system itself. 18:41:02 i had the sources to ms dos 6 somehow. NOOO freeking idea where the hell i got those from 18:41:17 deleted that shit before ms sent the storm troopers in to beat me to death 18:42:25 * dzho just ever so slightly encountered cp/m 18:42:54 i got to watch my dad poking around his cpm boxes a few times. 18:43:02 i never used one myself. kinda glad i never had to lol 18:43:04 nothing else was quite as simple as cp/m, yet portable. 18:43:26 I440r: MS-DOS 6.0 code was leaked on the Internet years ago. 18:43:35 dzho are you new in #forth? i dont think i have ever seen you speak here :) 18:43:41 MS won't be sending any storm troopers around. Not even they have enough money to buy that many soldiers. 18:43:45 ttmrichter, but where did i get it and why! 18:44:05 and how lol 18:44:10 PoppaVic: I agree. My CP/M machine was, arguably, more useful to me than my current Linux system that's literally a three or four orders of magnitude faster. 18:44:25 I440r: I got it myself by downloading it. Probably via a torrent. 18:44:33 * ttmrichter kind of packrats away retrocomputing stuff. 18:44:40 I440r: been idling mostly for . . . about 5 weeks, I guess? 18:44:48 ttmrichter, isnt it illegal to have that tho? 18:44:57 Who cares? 18:45:00 dzho well welcome to one of the single most idle channels in history lol 18:45:04 heh 18:45:17 in fact ive not seen any activity in here in years till anannie came by :) 18:45:18 Laws are only an issue when they can be enforced. 18:45:22 NOW were all full of life! 18:45:44 ttmrichter, go read up on earnie ball's dealing with microsoft 18:45:52 Oh, now that there's people actually talking, does anybody know of a good F/OSS ARM implementation of Forth I can crib from? 18:45:54 thats an education for all corporations still running ANYTHING from ms 18:45:54 well, it ran wordstar, dbase.. III?, and TP, and I SWEAR TC as well, but I may be wrong in the latter 18:46:14 I don't think it was TC specifically, but there's definitely been a few C compilers for CP/M. 18:46:23 ttmrichter, help me write the arm assembler for isforth and we can make one for arm 18:46:37 i kind of want an arm forth for rasp pi some time 18:46:38 PoppaVic: SIMH will emulate an Altair and there's a HUGE repository of CP/M software out there. 18:46:40 i dont have a pi yet tho 18:46:59 I440r: I'd personally write the forth and then write the assembler *in* Forth. :) 18:47:26 ttmrichter, nooo you need the assembler first so you can write the forth in assembler! or parts of it 18:47:35 isforth doesnt have an assembler yet :( 18:47:39 so i cant metacompile 18:47:53 I440r: Hand-assemble the minimal kernel you need to implement the Forth proper. 18:48:02 PoppaVic: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ 18:48:12 ttmrichter: not really worried.. I stick to lappies now, although iwanna' get into fiddling wi MCU soon. 18:48:13 i have a forth proper. what i need is an arm assembler that i can then target compile the arm forth with 18:48:45 PoppaVic: www.cpm.z80.de 18:48:50 i already have the chicken. what i need now is the egg 18:48:54 I440r: FIG pointed out The Way. 18:49:13 fig was about the worst implementations of forth ever divised 18:49:15 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 18:49:19 everything crammed into 1 source file 18:49:22 PoppaVic: If you want to tinker with MCUs, the STMicroelectronics "DISCOVERY" line of boards is dirt-cheap and yet oddly capable. 18:49:29 NOT being defined as : not 0= ; 18:49:30 bad 18:49:53 ttmrichter: what I found interesting was to discover cp/m is still used in some hw that needs more than an MCU, but nothing like a modern chip 18:50:02 or maybe it was the 79 std that had a b0rken not definition 18:50:03 i ferget 18:50:33 ttmrichter, as cheap as a rasp pi? 18:50:56 i would LOVe to do a forth for rasp pi and dump the linux from there 18:51:14 now that they open sourced the video drivers that would even be possible if i had the resources 18:52:13 I440r: They're about 10 bucks apiece. 18:52:51 aha 18:53:02 my atmega32u4 was $20 lol 18:53:19 do they have accelerated gfx? 18:53:32 They're embedded controller demo boards. 18:53:34 So, no. 18:53:39 :) 18:53:50 pi does! i would consider pi embedded too 18:54:24 Pi is no more embedded than a PC motherboard. 18:54:29 hehehehe 18:54:56 they call tevo embedded blargh 18:55:03 the pi itself is just an SBC - neat thingie. 19:03:42 Yeah, SBC \= embedded system. 19:04:23 my router is an embedded system. thats a full blown linux system too 19:04:36 of course the pi is an embedded system 19:06:00 Your router is not an embedded system. Or have you embedded it in something else? It's a special-purpose SBC system. 19:06:07 well, they can rename shit all they want - with luck I won't have to play long ;-) 19:08:41 Like when they called Windows 3.x an operating system? :) 19:09:16 or the old user friendly joke about "microsoft works" being an oxymoron? 19:09:42 heh 19:16:34 There were three machines I had loads of fun on in the day. 19:16:45 One was an ancient CP/M behemoth (Altos ACS-8000). 19:16:58 One was the PDP-8/M (or /E, can't recall which). 19:17:09 One was the PDP-11/70. 19:17:36 I also liked the Interdata (a.k.a. Perkin-Elmer) Model 70, but didn't spend enough time on it to get really attached. 19:18:35 The PDP/8 was a miracle of a machine. 8 concurrent users on a machine less powerful computationally than my *battery charger*. 19:20:17 the U had the pdp - a 10, I suppose.. maybe 11. The "lunchbox" Kaypro 464 was built like a truck. Wonderful. the c64 had the 6510 for amusement, andthe T/S-1000 was the cutest Z80 on the planet - with a forth os that ran a basic ;-) 19:20:34 The PDP-10 was a mainframe. 19:21:16 So if the U had a mainframe that was a DEC, it was the -10. If it was a min, that was the -11. 19:21:44 well, EMU certainly had a mainframe - whole bloody room of grad-students and drives to swap, and magtapes and line-printers.. We were assigned cardpunch machines, fought for teletypes, and in the vary rare wee hour we could get a CRT. 19:22:20 I'm pretty sure it was the -11, since I thru out the DEC manual a few years ago. 19:22:32 PoppaVic: was there a Forth somewhere underneath the BASIC on the T/S-1000/ZX-81, or are you referring to the Jupiter ACE? 19:23:46 dzho: afaik, the jupiter was similar. But sinclair had the Z80 running a TIL that let you use a sorta "hotkey" basic; I did buy extension mem and a forth for it - using a cessette ;-) 19:24:52 aw, man 19:25:49 * dzho had a TS1000 19:25:56 so, I know about the hotkey basic 19:26:07 just was wondering where the forth came into it 19:26:32 I think I learned about forth later, though, after I'd set the ts1000 aside 19:26:35 silly me 19:26:58 well, as I recall the manuals and guides at the time, it was a forth-OS. Not sure who wrote it, but.. heh.. Twas a neat gimmer ;-) 19:27:23 probably tom zimmer 19:27:33 he did the vic 20 forth and the c64 forth 19:28:51 dzho, what forth systems do you use presently if any 19:28:53 and FPC it would seem 19:29:05 fpc is where i learned forth 19:29:06 I440r: just gforth a tiny bit on my linux boxen 19:29:26 isforth was designed to look and feel like fpc but without the 16 bit restriction 19:29:27 and I've been playing a little with those built on javascript and android 19:29:43 i want to port isforth to native android 19:31:00 FPC was the best imp for PC's, F83 was well documented, gforth is a nice imp i won't pretend to try the source of. 19:31:12 one of these days I might get around to trying amforth 19:32:22 gforth is a horrendously bloated pile of horse shit 19:32:24 period 19:32:25 haha 19:32:37 somehow I suspected that would be the opinion 19:32:42 * dzho shrugs 19:32:42 any forth written in c is instantly NOT forth in any way shape or form 19:32:57 I can't imagine the apoplexy forth-in-javascript provokes 19:33:10 not that I'm trying to be provocative, of course. 19:33:21 naw im an opinionated bastard 19:33:26 but in this case im also right :P 19:33:55 imagine my amusement when one of the JS implementations returned -71 for the result of "360 negate 5 /" 19:33:59 im also not a fan of ans forth implementations at all. so gforth fails on 2 counts imho 19:34:37 ficl and pfe and pforthare all fun. Net? 19:34:38 isforth returns -72 19:34:40 is that wrong? 19:34:53 -72 is what gforth gives, and what I would expect 19:35:03 ok 19:35:19 the problem here is that, as I'm given to understand, javascript only has floating-point doubles as a numerical type 19:35:30 sounds like the js implementation of / is not floored 19:35:33 and so trying to emulate integer math with floating-point leads to fail 19:35:39 well, not properly floored 19:35:54 * dzho is going to have to dig this up it seems 19:35:59 too bad they never heard of chars, arrays, and even bcd ;-) 19:36:14 java doesnt even have unsigned types yet 19:36:20 http://forthfreak.net/jsforth80x25.html 19:36:20 /facepalm 19:37:24 "function forthdiv" in http://forthfreak.net/jsforth.js is the culprit 19:37:43 has a "floorfix" that I think needn't be in there 19:38:10 /mod is also going to suffer the same fate 19:38:37 and probably */mod 19:38:53 which is one of the single most useful forth words ever written! 19:38:55 all the divisions 19:39:50 anyway, I was working up a patch to send before the holidays set in 19:40:01 a patch to the js forth? 19:40:07 sure 19:40:09 erm i think the holidays already set in and left :) 19:40:15 yup 19:40:18 well, no 19:40:26 New Year's Eve and Day coming up 19:40:38 im trying to find a bug i implemented 2 days ago while coding under the affluence of incahol 19:40:50 now all my terminfo stuff segfaults 19:41:08 hehehe\ 19:41:10 I have to say, as a chemist, that is an alcohol with which I am unfamiliar 19:41:36 my advice is "keep it that way" lol 19:41:38 something from the Incas, perhaps? 19:41:48 specialy if you intend to code anything 19:41:54 no actually its an australian joke 19:41:57 to be exact 19:47:28 --- quit: tgunr_ (*.net *.split) 19:48:07 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 19:48:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 20:58:52 found my bug. and of course its STUPID lol 20:59:05 it was a duplicate word name bug 21:05:06 now i have to go through and clean up my decompiler and totally rewrite the debugger... not that forth needs one but the debugger is an awesome way for a beginner to get to grips with how forth works 21:05:15 which was always my purpose for it :) 21:07:59 heh 21:09:00 I'm just diddle-dicking with gforth and wordlists, reading a forth-asm doc, and chuckling at Harry Potter ;-) 21:09:13 what forth asm doc? 21:10:25 B.Y.O.ASSEMBLER (by Brad Rodriguez) 21:11:40 i couldnt understand anyone elses assemblers so i kinda made it up myself but i think the solutions i came up with are similar to everyone elses 21:11:47 I've Loeliger nearby as well, but I wanted something not specific to Z80 21:11:48 i just couldnt understand it till i did it 21:12:27 you could look at my 8051 assembler. tho the one thats with isforth currently has a couple of bugs in the encodings of a couple of opcodes 21:12:38 anywhere I'd have to suffer learning ELF and linker-mumble as well would leave me cold 21:12:41 i know about them, just didnt fix them in the released version yet 21:12:56 why would you need elf? 21:13:02 just drop a binary :) 21:13:39 Correct, or HEX for blowers, I know - that's what I'm tiddling.. Seeing how much trouble it is. 21:14:47 aprt of the issue is that my mind really, really prefers vocabularies/wordlists. 21:15:14 so, I'm tinkering to see how much trouble it is. 21:17:39 oh my assemblers are always in their own vocabulary 21:17:44 the assembler needs to be 21:19:28 Yeah, I get a bit confused and peeved with metacompiler and assembler naming.. 21:19:45 yea forget the metacompiler part 21:20:14 the only thing the meta compiler really needs from the assembler is for the assembler to have a defered c, so c, can compile to somewhere other than HERE 21:20:16