00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.12.29 01:50:29 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:41:53 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 02:54:51 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 02:54:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 03:18:54 --- quit: Bahman (Remote host closed the connection) 03:35:37 --- join: ASau` (~user@217.118.90.197) joined #forth 03:35:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau` 03:36:55 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 03:44:32 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 03:44:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 03:49:08 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@static.88-198-159-196.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 03:49:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 03:55:31 --- quit: ASau` (Remote host closed the connection) 03:56:10 --- join: ASau` (~user@217.118.90.197) joined #forth 03:56:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau` 04:28:41 --- join: ncv (~quassel@92.114.78.17) joined #forth 04:28:41 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 04:28:41 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:28:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ncv 05:00:55 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 05:00:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +v protist 07:01:56 --- join: anannie (~anannie@95.211.99.11) joined #forth 07:01:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v anannie 07:10:59 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 07:30:14 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 07:36:02 --- join: kumul (~kumul@67.224.165.150) joined #forth 07:36:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v kumul 07:54:16 Hi there, I'm trying to learn forth on Mac OS X Mountain Lion and the first problem I'm running into is that I can't find a good packaged solution for running Forth on my machine. I've seen diaperglu, but the problem is that it requires prior knowledge to build it that I don't have. I would like to keep that as a last resort in favour for a more packaged solution. I tried D and iMops only runs on Mac OS 10.6 and earlier making it difficult to ex 07:54:16 ecute on my machine 07:54:45 Err, it seemed to have cut out my message, sorry about that. 07:55:39 The last sentence is, I tried D and I couldn't find the project page, it has been apparently taken offline. I've tried iMops and it only runs on Mac OS 10.6 and earlier making it difficult to execute on my machine 07:55:56 Is there any environment out there that I can use with my machine? 07:59:33 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 08:02:33 --- quit: ncv (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 08:14:32 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.173) joined #forth 08:14:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 08:17:43 anannie: you could use Oracle's virtualbox to get a linux virtual machine...then it would be easy to get a Forth 08:18:33 protist: That sounds like a good idea, but isn't there anything natively? 08:18:55 --- join: ncv (~quassel@92.114.78.17) joined #forth 08:18:55 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 08:18:55 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:18:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ncv 08:22:40 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@107.sub-70-194-84.myvzw.com) joined #forth 08:22:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 08:27:47 anannie: there are some forths that run on python, i think you have python installed on osx no? 08:28:00 Yup, I have python installed 08:28:35 py4th.py? 08:29:42 wha? 08:30:43 kumul: I googled and found a project called py4th... I'm wondering if this was the project you were referring to 08:30:52 Is there any one you recommend? 08:31:23 anannie: it is somewhat sad to use a forth implemented in python 08:31:26 http://forthfreak.net/jsforth80x25.html you can use this, on your browser 08:31:53 anannie: part of the beauty of Forth lies in knowing exactly what the machine is doing 08:32:31 anannie: why dont you use pforth http://code.google.com/p/pforth/ ? ill walk you through the compiling part (does mac come with a compiler?) 08:32:41 anannie: in gforth...i can use a word called see...it will show me how things are defined...if i use that one a low level word, it will show me the actual assembly implementation 08:32:49 on* 08:32:52 kumul: Sure 08:33:04 kumul: I wasn't expecting such support, thank you! 08:33:06 protist: yes but whats the point of that when you dont know assembly? 08:33:14 kumul: well...i do lol 08:33:52 hey protist can you help me out with something i asked a while ago with no reply? 08:34:02 kumul: it is nice to know 2* is actually using shift arithmetic left 08:34:06 protist: That indeed is beautiful and that's why I wanted to learn this, because it was close to what the processor was doing. I'm just starting out with programming and I don't know much computing as it actually is, but I'm willing to work and learn 08:34:16 kumul: what is that? 08:34:43 anannie: if that is how you feel, then you should do well :) 08:35:41 anannie: btw factor (forthish) http://factorcode.org/ has a package i think 08:36:07 --- join: crcx (~crcx@li125-93.members.linode.com) joined #forth 08:36:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crcx 08:36:09 anannie: oh! then nvm what i said, forget factor 08:36:13 anannie: i actually only started programming 5 months ago...i moved to New Zealand and my visa was messed up...unable to resume university or work, I started programming all day :) 08:36:55 kumul: what was your question?...i must not have been here 08:37:31 protist: Wow. That is quite amazing, how did you arrive at Forth? I'm in a rather similar situation actually and it has taken quite a leap to commit myself to something like this. 08:37:52 protist: i was hoping to understand how to handle reading and writing to files, gforth has this slurp word, but a couple dont, and although i can snarf and paste... i would like to know what open-file and all of these words are doing 08:38:22 I440r: did you kick asau? this is a miracle 08:38:36 me? 08:38:38 no lol 08:38:41 kumul: i haven't worked on file input and output yet, Starting Forth seems to only talk about the blocks 08:38:58 protist: 5 months and you already know assembly and forth? you're my hero 08:39:00 kumul: you could try online...or use see to see what it is doing 08:39:18 u can pull ideas from isforth if u like 08:39:19 protist: i see what it is doing, but i dont understand what it is doing 08:39:32 kumul: ah...then try online, i suppose 08:39:42 ive been working on that again lately, just totally rewrote my memory manager lol 08:39:44 protist: that was my question, where? 08:39:59 trying to fix #! script loading. no idea why or when that broke 08:40:44 kumul, is asau banned in here now or something or is he just "gone" lol 08:40:50 kumul: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/ 08:41:02 I440r: quite frankly #! is terrible, unix should just take the 2 characters in a file and ignore them (and have a flag which indicates that it is a shellscript) 08:41:26 gforth is horrendously complex 08:41:43 kumul, you have to be able to specify what the scripts interpreter is 08:41:43 I440r: idk, just noticed we havent been trolled for saying that forth is good for novice programmers 08:41:53 anannie: I am somewhat obsessed with languages...I am best in Perl, but I have also been using/practicing x86 assembly, C, Forth, and Scheme 08:41:55 lol 08:42:18 I440r: exactly, and almost all shellscripts use 2 characters for comments 08:42:29 anannie: the best way to learn is to get books and read....getting familiar with the Linux environment will really go a long ways 08:43:05 # is a comment. the ! tells bash what interpreter to run the script thru 08:43:26 i mean. it tells bask that this comment specifies the interpreter 08:43:35 #! /bin/blah 08:44:01 protist: Ah I see. I'm actually learning these languages to learn how to think in terms of computing so that I can implement feedback loops + logic in code for robotics without much hiccups. 08:44:36 anannie, if you are going to be doing robotics forth is your friend :) 08:44:37 protist: What books do you suggest for FORTH and Linux? I'm planning on reading Thinking Forth for FORTH and I don't have a clue about which book I should read for Linux 08:45:07 anannie, forth inc has a handbook thats more modern than leo brodies books 08:45:16 i think you can download it for free. 08:45:31 anannie: I read the first 500 pages of an old book on Unix...it wasn't great but it got me going on the terminal....Starting Forth seems to be the standard book for getting started with Forth :P 08:45:33 I440r: Yes, you can, but will that handbook teach me how to think properly? 08:45:42 I440r: ! doest mean anything afaik 08:46:04 if you are trying to learn linux my ONLY suggestion is "dont use ubuntu or fedora. use gentoo, you will learn linux better" 08:46:10 protist: Which book was it, I'll find a copy and I'll read it 08:46:15 anannie: i think most people say Starting Forth then Thinking Forth 08:46:23 anannie: brb 08:46:24 kumul, you cant have # /bin/bash because that would just be a coment 08:46:32 protist: Okay, I'll start with Starting Forth 08:46:39 I440r: exactly, because #! tells unix that 08:46:47 not bash, bash doesnt care about it 08:46:48 the bang after the she tells bash that this is a special type of comment 08:47:04 bash or what ever shell you are running 08:47:23 I440r: May I ask if you've done any robotics with Forth? 08:47:28 the shell loads the interpreter and sends it the file name of the script in its command line 08:47:42 anannie, does satellite tracking systems count. 08:47:49 anannie: UNIX Made Easy by John Muster is what I used 08:47:52 long wall coal mining roof support systems... 08:47:57 I440r: Whoa, yes they do 08:48:13 anannie: i can't say it is wonderful or terribly exciting...but it covers the basics and assumes you know nothing 08:48:18 and i just wrote a complete avr assembler and a direct threaded avr forth 08:48:23 protist: That's perfect for me 08:48:38 im going to publish that as free and offer a sub threaded version for a fee 08:48:40 eventually 08:49:07 anannie: :)...it is like 1000 pages...i read the first 500 and stopped...i felt comfortable at that point, and wasn't really interested in learning to write elaborate programs in Bash, lol :) 08:49:25 i used debian for about 3 years as my ONLY OS. then i installed gentoo 08:49:44 i learned more about using linux on the first gentoo install i did than in the entire 3 years prior to the install 08:50:02 i use Debian stable 08:50:16 i do all my programming from the terminal 08:50:17 I440r: I can't actually mess with my work laptop, as it's well my work laptop 08:50:21 i have major issues with distributions that do not honor the FHS 08:50:30 debian does not honor the FHS 08:50:31 whats FHS? 08:50:48 anannie, you can install gentoo in a virtual box vm 08:50:55 the file system heirachy standard 08:51:18 which says terminfo goes in /usr/share/terminfo NOT in /lib/terminfo 08:51:21 I440r: Okay, I'll get that done 08:51:41 I440r: that doesnt make sense! how does it know its bash? it doesnt, unix handles shebang which it then passes to the interpreter if it is found 08:52:06 anannie, if you follow the gentoo handbook for the install of gentoo and get it all up and running... you can check out my forth compiler :) 08:52:08 So to shorten things, UNIX Made Easy by John Muster side by side with Starting Forth should do the trick 08:52:08 anannie: if you get scared off by the gentoo install, there are alternatives :) 08:52:24 protist: I never give up :p 08:52:38 anannie: great :)...those sound like a good place to start :) 08:52:58 Does anyone over here know Ruby btw? 08:53:08 anannie: if you are interested in anything else, I am always reading things....i hold myself to a rule of no less than 20 pages a day 08:53:09 kumul, when you say ./blah on a +x script file it is BASH that loads it. sees the #! and then launches the interpreter and passes the path and name of the script to the interpreter 08:54:12 so #! /bin/blah at the top of a file called foobar would have bash or zsh or whatever run "/bin/blah foobar" 08:55:27 there are no alternatives to gentoo :P 08:55:37 but gentoo installs take time 08:56:04 I440r: not bash, but /usr/bin/env 08:56:27 and any "alternative" will be debian based probably and i for one REFUSE to add duct tape code to my projects to fix screw ups in other peoples projects 08:56:39 like gnome terminal having black as color 15 not color 0 08:57:31 or like debian based distributions putting terminfo in /lib 08:57:32 no need to go Debian based....go to the source at Debian :) 08:57:37 I'm not a Ubuntu fan hehe 08:58:11 I have a generalised question for you folks, how hard is it for a novice programmer to write her first game of life implementation? 08:58:43 should not be too difficult if she has some pro coders at the other end of her iRC to help her :) 08:58:59 Without any help :) 08:59:12 ok 08:59:17 (as that would be cheating!) 08:59:21 computer programming is about solving problems 08:59:30 you cannot solve a problem until you understand it 08:59:48 I wrote my first one in Ruby and I'm hoping to translate it into Forth as a sort of rosetta stone 08:59:51 I440r: i just tried to run bash on a #! starting script, it doesnt know what to do with it 08:59:53 first lay out a plan of how you would implement a game of life 09:00:21 kumul, maybe my understanding of that is flawed then :) 09:00:37 anannie, think of the "Game" as an array 09:00:46 I440r: it is, i know bash, comments are # and everthing else is ignored 09:00:54 http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/faq/part3/section-16.html 09:01:04 I440r: I did, and I built something that made a 2D one toroidal and I flipped the bits 09:01:17 env doesnt handle it either, it seems its exec() 09:01:28 scan throu the array with two loops. one in x, one in y. examine each cell and its neighbors. apply rules based on cell content and neighbors 09:01:45 anannie: rosetta code is a nice site 09:02:01 i usually double buffer this too 09:02:15 kumul: There's a site called rosetta code for code? Wow. 09:02:25 i.e. scan buffer 1 for cells. apply rules for new births and deaths into a second buffer 09:03:29 anannie: there is, dont copy paste though, it uses the gfdl for everything 09:04:13 anannie: i could show you some projecteuler problems I have solved in Forth 09:04:20 anannie: :) 09:04:31 protist: That would be cheating! I'm going to solve them on my own 09:04:36 what is gfdl? 09:04:42 anannie: ah haha :) 09:04:50 anannie, thats a good attitude :) 09:04:52 I440r: gnu free documentation license 09:05:06 sounds like another virus :P 09:05:12 anannie: i solved problem 31 today....recursion in Forth is so different 09:05:20 I440r: yes but much much worse 09:05:23 recursion is bad 09:05:25 I440r: That's exactly what I've done. Yay, I got it right! Here's my implementation in ruby (if you want to have a look); https://www.dropbox.com/s/iurhq1g8iot3f0d/gameoflife.rb 09:05:48 I440r: yeah...I was worried for the return stack, but it was fun 09:06:26 my first impression on your code wthout having dived into it yet is that it is GOOD> simply for being nicely formatted 09:06:50 im am instantly put off by cluster &$^%( formatting in sources 09:06:57 so good job on that score :) 09:07:11 protist: Ah can I share my solution for problem 6 with you? It's in ruby, but I just wanted to know if the logic was neat. I tried to do it in the least amount of cycles possible when I couldn't figure out an algebraic solution. 09:07:20 thank you I440r 09:07:34 yikes, transalting that to forth will be 3x the lines :P 09:07:47 anannie: i don't know Ruby...but it looks enough like Perl and Python I can probably read it :)...go ahead 09:07:51 kumul, how so? 09:08:03 kumul: factor 09:08:05 I440r: :P tongue in cheek comment 09:08:11 kumul: :D 09:08:13 oh. 09:08:38 well forth does encourage proper factoring of the code so sources do LOOK longer 09:08:51 but they are usually much much easier to read 09:09:13 anannie, not hitting on you here but how old are u and where from? 09:09:18 protist: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dvuautrul05cozn/pe6.rb 09:09:18 anannie: http://code.google.com/p/pforth/wiki/CompilingOnUnix ? (do you have cc installed? { which cc gives you something?) 09:09:37 I440r: I'm 20 and I really can't say where I'm from 09:09:51 protist: how do you solve those project euler problems which take insanely huge numbers? 09:10:34 thats fine... im always happy when girls WANT to be coders lol. i think they make good coders sometimes 09:10:53 kumul: i have been kind of avoiding those because they look annoying...i would probably use assembly 09:11:26 kumul: assembly has ways of carrying 09:11:59 I440r: I started late as my interests were really in robotics v.s. coding. I built hardware machines and I never saw what computers could do or what I could get out of them. The idea of being hunched over one seemed to be unappeasing when I could create life, if that makes any sense 09:12:03 protist: i've only done 5, after that i've made others but wont work because i have to change the code to use 2dup for everything 09:12:08 anannie: my netbook is trying to die on me...I'll let you know what i think after the page loads :) 09:12:20 protist: Sure :) 09:12:49 anannie, it DOES make sense. part of the reason i wrote isforth was because i had been using forth for yeas without fully understanding how it worked 09:12:52 kumul: you can definitely do more than 5 problems without very large numbers....how many bits is a cell in your forth implementation? 09:13:17 kumul: I have gcc installed on my machine 09:14:02 I'll have to finish installing XCode on this though before I can go ahead and do this 09:14:04 anannie, so your main interest is making hardware move and sense its surroundings... 09:14:07 anannie: ah! so no problems then, extract & look at that site 09:14:56 kumul: I had a problem earlier in the day because the gcc wasn't linked properly and the tools weren't installed, so I'm downloading XCode and getting their tools 09:15:00 I440r: Yues! 09:15:05 * Yes! 09:15:29 xcode is clang/llvm? 09:15:53 I440r: Yeah 09:16:03 anannie: the page says you dont need xcode 09:16:08 forth looks daunting to begin with but once you get the basics down its VERY easy to develop with 09:16:18 kumul: Well make failed earlier today 09:16:35 clang/llvm is about 10 billion times better than anything the GNU foundation developed 09:17:48 that could be a lib dependancy that you have b0rked tho 09:18:06 would need to see the make error 09:18:50 would argue, but they both take a ****** of time to compile 09:19:09 kumul: Okay I'm trying this one 09:19:26 anannie: paste it on a pastebin ( http://dpaste.com ) 09:20:28 -bash: make: command not found 09:20:33 Hrm. 09:20:35 lol so this channel sits DEAD and IDLE for 6 months, a girl comes in and were all here... typical :P~ 09:20:44 anannie: i didn't attempt to optimize problem 6 :)...i am playing with it a bit now 09:20:46 ! 09:21:01 make is installed tho right? 09:21:07 pathing issues? 09:21:08 Don't worry I'll keep this lively and going 09:21:25 I440r: wha? there is chat in the night :) 09:21:48 anannie, were usually idle here because we are coding too :) 09:21:55 Theoretically it comes with OS X, but I don't know why it isn't accessible though. I'll install XCode and then go through the entire process and see 09:21:59 I440r: Ah 09:22:08 cept i got drunk last nite and dont feel up to it right now. TOO drunk... which i never do wtf 09:22:08 Don't worry I'll make this channel lively 09:22:25 yea when someone comes here to learn we generally chip in and help 09:23:00 i started this channel in 2000 ish. i sat in here ALONE for about 2 years before people started hanging in here lol 09:23:07 i think most of the people in here are bots tho 09:23:15 I440r: Thank you... The logging is worrying though. 09:23:29 Can't say anything too personal without getting it preserved for posterity on the interwebs 09:23:31 I440r: I'm not ususally coding. I just have ventured away from normal Forth over the last few years 09:23:36 yea clog is spying on a lot of irc channels :) 09:23:42 crc! 09:24:04 crc thats fine... tom zimmer (fpc/win32forth) now codes c++ for a living lol 09:24:36 crcx: May I ask what you have ventured into? 09:25:05 oh right! retro! you can run retro.py! 09:25:10 without compiling 09:25:31 kumul: Was that for me? 09:25:37 yes 09:26:06 crc adopted retro forth and made it his own. 09:26:39 adopted? i thought he made it from scratch 09:26:52 no he wasnt the original author :) 09:27:09 anannie: my primary language for personal projects is a varient of forth (retro, see http://rx-core.org) 09:27:30 Why is Forth so discarded? I'm surprised that there isn't more activity around it. It feels like a niche... 09:27:34 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 09:27:47 TCN was the original author of it but crc has done more work on it than tcn so its crc's totally now :) 09:28:03 kumul: the current retro is all mine, versions 5-9 were derived from code written by tom novelli (tnovelli.net) 09:28:07 anannie, i have a couple of theories about that 09:28:10 crcx: Okay, I'll learn retro. 09:28:13 I440r: I would love to listen 09:28:22 most people taking their first look at forth go screamin for mamma 09:28:35 : fib 0 1 rot 1+1 do tuck + loop nip ; 09:28:40 rpn scares them 09:29:00 then thers the fact that microsoft does not sell any forth compilers 09:29:02 recently I've been dabbling with implementing a new stack based language, though it's still not usable for most things apart from small experiments I've been doing: http://rx-core.org/parable 09:29:42 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 09:29:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +v protist 09:29:53 wow i had to reset 09:29:53 crcx: Pardon my ignorance, but if I'm reading Starting Forth then can I apply what I learn from that to Retro? Or is Retro something completely different? 09:30:06 welcome back protist 09:30:13 anannie: :) 09:30:26 anannie: what you did with problem 6 looks clever 09:30:37 anannie, alot of starting forth wont be of much help to you for any modern forth. its STILl a good place to start tho 09:30:43 anannie: i can see where it looks like something can be done...but i haven't arrived at how to do it yet 09:30:45 anannie: completely different 09:30:46 I am also doing some work on adapting a little C compiler to generate parable code (and later Retro and standard Forth) code 09:30:56 you need to make rot drop dup tuck swap second nature :) 09:31:17 protist: Thank you :) It's still not as clever as their algebraic interpretation though 09:31:45 anannie: ah ide have to look :) 09:31:54 crcx: That is amazing 09:31:55 I440r: it is applicable, i havent run into problems (maybe some things here and there) 09:32:58 I440r: It's a bit frustrating that there isn't a clear path over here as there is for a lot of other languages... Maybe I could help someone over here write a modern FORTH tutorial as I walk along 09:33:01 anannie: ah....i just remembered...i know calculus, lol 09:33:11 anannie: ok i can see where this is going now 09:34:20 anannie: starting forth won't help much with retro. I use very different approaches to loops, conditionals, stack flow, etc 09:34:46 crcx: I'm a complete novice to programming as well, so where should I start from? 09:35:00 anannie, www.isforth.com has SOME documentation for the low level primitives in its kernel 09:35:05 but no proper tutorial 09:35:18 but isforth is 100% isforth compliant and not much else :) 09:35:43 protist: what kind of netbook do you have? i want to buy one but i always hear bad stuff about'em 09:35:44 I440r: I don't even know what low level primitives mean 09:36:03 kumul: a really cheap acer aspire one 09:36:04 anannie, people who know and code forth well code all other languages better for knowing forth 09:36:14 kumul: i have a new laptop in the mail :)...and ultrabook 09:36:47 anannie, forth uses "words" for functions. a forth word can be written in assembler or it can be written in forth 09:36:50 I440r: Well that's why I'm going to learn this properly... 09:36:52 anannie: learn the basics first. starting forth + gforth isn't a bad way to get started, and the retro (or other) varients won't be as hard to pick up later 09:37:03 anannie: starting forth, start there (nobody trusts me :( ) 09:37:08 dup drop swap nip tuck are all low level primitives that you can use to create higher level definitions 09:37:25 Ah they are like keywords 09:37:34 when you code in forth you write your low level primitives for your application. write one then test it 09:37:38 write another and then test it 09:37:45 crcx: Is there any implementation of those for Mac OS X that you recommend? 09:37:57 you then use those primitives to create higher level definitions which you test as soon as you have written them 09:37:59 anannie: use pforth, it ignores a couple of things (you can do everything in the interpreter, there is no compiling!) 09:38:12 at all stages of development everything you have already developed has already been tested 09:39:03 kumul: pForth seems to be designed for embedded systems and it doesn't have too many libraries for a desktop machine... 09:39:08 on os x, I've used gforth and reva (non-standard, but decent and actively supported. see http://ronware.org/reva) 09:39:37 anannie: cool solution, once again :) 09:39:57 Thank you protist, and I honestly didn't use calculus to do it! Just logic 09:40:25 crcx: I'll try GForth 09:43:20 anannie: this is just for learning forth, so atm its perfect for that 09:44:19 im sometimes annoyed that i have to : t ; to test a simple loop 09:44:48 kumul, isforth has rep and you can do it in interpret mode lol 09:44:53 : fo do something here ; 09:44:58 10 rep foo 09:45:04 erm thats : foo .... ; 09:46:02 10 [ foo ] times ( in retro ) 09:47:22 so [ and ] dont switch state? 09:47:34 its a quote 09:48:20 anannie: your solution really makes me feel embarrassed about not studying discrete math in detail...i think that just moved up on my reading priorities 09:48:27 erm i better shush about this and let crcx answer 09:48:34 anannie: :) 09:48:36 i never studied math at all lol 09:48:37 protist: I've never actually done discrete math 09:48:54 anannie: you quoted the multinomial thoerem 09:49:08 protist: Well I just read that up 09:49:19 anannie: yeah, I need to read :P 09:49:47 I440r: in retro, [[ and ]] switch state, [ ] create quotes (nestable, anonymous functions) 09:49:59 anannie: link me if you do anything else interesting on euler 09:50:21 aha 09:50:45 anannie: i have done 1-8, 11, 14-17, 20, 22, 31, and 92 09:51:15 protist: I'd covered binomial theorem in high school, I just sort of extrapolated that a theorem must exist for a generalised case of that. 09:53:48 protist: do you have a repo containing them? 09:54:03 s/cont.*/for them/ 09:54:30 kumul: i have the source saved on my computer :P...ask and I'll link 09:57:41 can lldb debug assembler? 09:59:32 I440r: idk.... i have used gcc -gstabs and gdb 09:59:45 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 09:59:52 i HATE gdb. i wont ever use gdb for debugging asm code 10:00:05 its the single worst debug environment ive ever had to use 10:00:07 period 10:00:17 lol...i have nothing to compare it to :) 10:00:40 ill do a disasembly using readelf and mentally walk the code before i use gdb 10:00:51 hehe 10:01:19 in ye olde dos days i used a386 assembler and d386 debug 10:01:22 yeah i have only used gdb a few times....but i have only written a few thousand lines of asm, probably 10:01:42 d386 is one of the best ive used 10:02:16 the assembly level debugger would be realy really good if the developer would develop the curses interface for it 10:02:17 i started trying to implement a Forth on x86...it feels sad to use x86 while I am reading Stack Machines hehe 10:02:24 he has not touched it in about 10 years tho 10:02:44 protist: you should have a dvcs, it would be better, just { add * ; push } and done! 10:03:02 kumul: dvcs? 10:03:05 distributed version control? 10:03:09 yes 10:03:16 i hate those too 10:03:32 it takes me HOURS to check out the android sources because its using git 10:03:32 whats wrong? 10:03:33 i haven't used version control...i save copies of things if i feel a need to 10:03:44 you're a cranky old man I440r 10:03:45 to check out android you have to get the ENTIRE FUCKING history of the project 10:03:47 i hate that shit 10:03:55 you dont know the half of it :P~ 10:03:58 ... 10:04:03 svn = good version control 10:04:10 I440r: you can just use a... shallow something something 10:04:15 i forgot what its called 10:04:17 git supports it 10:04:26 you can pull without having the history 10:04:35 s/having the// 10:04:47 hg doesnt support it though 10:06:26 I440r: http://linux.die.net/man/1/git-clone /--depth/ 10:06:41 heh it takes me hours to repo sync but only 21 minutes to compile the entire android OS from scratch 10:06:42 / for grep 10:06:54 //* 10:08:23 so its not a problem with dvcs's :) 10:08:34 well! now you know, try it :) 10:08:56 its just wrong lol. i want a central server not a scatter brained repo 10:09:16 my old compaq deskpro with a p3/650 is my svn server 10:21:35 that seems wasteful... dvcs has rendered servers obsolete :) 10:22:05 which is what google wants to do with hard drives 10:22:09 ill resist that one too 10:29:50 I do that too with gpl software, i wont even try. i personally know its useless :) 10:31:06 lol 10:32:34 brb, roasting some coffee 10:34:08 --- quit: protist (Quit: leaving) 10:34:33 anannie: so your running forth now? 10:34:41 you're 10:35:38 i always get confused, in spanish we write what we mean... (not confused, i just dont give a damn) 10:37:28 lol 11:16:47 oh anannie what editor do you use? 11:16:59 I440r: TextMate 11:17:12 thought you might 11:17:17 :) 11:17:18 have you seen sublime text 2? 11:17:44 Nope... 11:18:06 https://tutsplus.com/course/improve-workflow-in-sublime-text-2/ 11:18:18 watch the first few of those vids 11:18:39 * anannie watches 11:18:53 i just registered st2, i think its the best source editor ive ever seen. i was even able to create a full forth syntax highlighting plugin for it 11:19:07 ive never seen any editor that could reliably highlight forth 11:19:29 oh and the guy doing the vids is using a mac :P~ 11:23:40 I440r: I shall watch these :) 11:23:58 the second vid is where he actually starts showing the features 11:34:32 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.203) joined #forth 11:34:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 11:58:25 --- quit: crc (Quit: leaving) 11:58:43 --- nick: crcx -> crc 11:59:03 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: .zzZ) 12:04:57 bah textmate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M 12:09:00 you know, there was this nice editor that had another window to its right, which basically tested every line instantly, that would be nice, sort of 12:33:58 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12:36:56 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 12:36:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre-laptop 12:50:45 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 13:21:55 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 13:24:09 wait a second, nobody answered how the file thing works! 13:24:21 oh well 13:26:03 --- join: tgunr (~davec@cust-66-249-166-12.static.o1.com) joined #forth 13:26:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr 13:28:08 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 13:40:28 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.203) joined #forth 13:40:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 13:49:19 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@62.sub-70-194-68.myvzw.com) joined #forth 13:49:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 13:55:10 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.173) joined #forth 13:55:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 14:17:14 Kumul: sadly I don't know enough about traditional forth file operations :( 14:29:10 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 15:09:57 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-11.static.o1.com) joined #forth 15:09:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 15:15:26 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:21:31 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 15:36:02 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Quit: Leaving) 15:41:20 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-12.static.o1.com) joined #forth 15:41:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 15:44:46 --- quit: tgunr_ (Read error: Operation timed out) 15:54:40 --- join: PoppaVic (~pv@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 15:54:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +v PoppaVic 15:54:57 wow.. look at all them bodies! 16:00:49 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-8.static.o1.com) joined #forth 16:00:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 16:15:33 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:31:50 lol 16:32:04 hi poppa. most of them never talk tho 16:32:23 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16:42:14 hi I440r - yeah, it's like that most places 16:43:49 talk is overrated. irc was meant for those who like to lurk. 16:44:41 oh. No wonder then - I got it wrong all those years ago! 16:44:57 Actually, I thought lurking was an IM thing 16:51:28 I440r: by the by, I know my screen is goingto hell (I gotta' ship it of next week), but man - yer site has color isues ;-) 16:52:22 still, nice to know yer still hammering on it. 17:02:54 lol 17:03:03 well were all past master lurkers in here 17:03:22 lol it has other issues too 17:03:41 brb 17:04:47 I shall blame yer C skills on it - because I KNOW how much you love having to encounter C ;-) 17:06:02 Can't blame you much, though.. Been looking over other C's for microcontrollers and shuddering. 17:11:48 if you have been to the isforth site then im sure you saw the quote from ron oliver 17:12:06 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17:12:22 its not c i hate, its how people code it i hate 17:12:25 and gcc 17:12:36 actually i hate ALL gnu tools 17:12:41 llvm/clang ftw 17:13:02 some day the entire linux world will drop gcc like a red hot led brick 17:13:14 and adopt clang fully 17:13:20 the sooner the better 17:13:20 I like to switch-hit with clang. 17:13:46 but the bastard was written in C++, which is just depressing. 17:14:10 --- quit: anannie (Remote host closed the connection) 17:16:26 its still better than gnu 17:16:46 I write a makefile and try to ignore gnuisms. 17:18:30 and, of course, that's why I try to run stuff thru clang for sanity-tests, too 17:19:52 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 17:33:46 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 17:33:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 18:57:37 Well, I pulled my Loeliger out for tonight.. Jog some neurons, loosen some snot. 19:05:16 --- join: Onionnion|Eee (~ryan@adsl-68-254-166-23.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 19:05:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion|Eee 19:11:48 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 19:19:07 http://soton.mpeforth.com/flag/jfar/vol4/no4/article6.pdf combinators in forth 19:20:26 they wont, they probably will run away with the code and make it their own, license and all. as they have always done 19:21:05 that was for I440r and that other guy that left, wonder who that was 19:22:10 Onionnion|Eee: hey, you there? 19:22:27 kumul, I am 19:22:37 you're on an Eee? 19:22:45 yes? 19:22:52 any good? 19:23:25 i saw one, $90, old as hell, but better than my PC (goodness im poor XD) 19:23:38 this one came stock with Windows..runs horribly. installed Arch, runs great 19:23:58 it's great for coding anywhere, basic web stuff 19:24:36 i just want to run freebsd on it, i cant stand any other env really 19:24:53 I like how when it's booted on XP, it has only about 3 hours of battery 19:25:01 on Linux, about 5+ 19:25:19 Onionnion|Eee: how long have you had it? netbooks never last they say 19:25:30 this is pretty old 19:25:41 4 years I think? 19:25:46 not that old I guess lol 19:26:17 I dropped it on the floor once..speakers no work now but I use earbuds anyways 19:26:17 thats old enough, people these days have the attention span of a dog 19:27:02 new iphone came out? zomg it has almost zero improvements 19:27:19 my desktop is about 10 years old 19:27:42 so old that the the CPU is literally as powerful as netbook 19:27:42 mine's 8, so almost there 19:27:56 desktop: 2.2ghz single core 19:28:04 netbook: duo-core 1.6ghz 19:28:27 --- join: obobo (~chatzilla@98.124.13.32) joined #forth 19:28:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +v obobo 19:30:07 olde desktops are the best place to develop code 19:30:24 make em run fast there and they will burn rubber on a modern machine :) 19:32:16 I440r: seconded! 19:32:53 my svn server is a p3/650 19:33:04 isforth was originally developed on a k6-3/550 :P 19:33:42 cough my desktop is now a 12 core lga2011 overclocked to 4.7 ghz with 64 gigs of ram lol 19:33:58 Onionnion|Eee: im on 2.8, so it will be a while for embedded to catch up 19:34:29 quite frankly i see only 1 purpose for desktops and thats gaming 19:35:03 everything that requires text isnt (or at least shouldnt be) that labor intensive 19:35:30 I want a good GPU for games and blender 19:35:35 well i just canseled my wow account :P 19:35:39 i was surprised over a browser called netsurf, it played html5 and consumed almost nothing 19:35:51 and oddly enough I am able to concentrate on code and other stuff with this netbook in bed :P 19:36:02 I440r: but but but, you need a past-time! 19:36:08 lol thats what im doing now! 19:36:13 coding on laptop in bed 19:36:31 im hunting down a bug i put in my forth last night that makes it crash 19:38:25 well, at least playing WoW there will be impossible... 19:38:32 I440r: is it that #! bug? 19:39:56 no 19:40:06 its something in my curses code 19:40:51 Onionnion|Eee: what Eee do you have btw? 19:40:57 last question :) 19:41:02 1005M 19:41:22 eee? 19:41:29 mhm 19:43:09 * Onionnion|Eee hasn't done a lot of coding recently.. 19:43:16 maybe this isnt such a bad idea, its gonna be terrible compiling stuff 19:43:20 I tried writing a physics engine in Python 19:43:41 failed at object collision 19:50:18 the community around love is nice (and very depraved) was reading about that some nights ago 19:50:46 love2d? 19:50:49 yes 19:50:50 yes, very nice 19:51:14 that mario thing they made that exploded some months before was made in it 19:51:18 i never got it to run though 19:51:52 ha, yeah, mario portal was made in love2d, and a tetris game with real physics 19:58:44 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@static.88-198-159-196.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 19:58:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 20:07:09 I once tried converting a javascript simulation topython 20:07:17 kinda worked, mostly failed 20:07:30 that, you just broke my brain 20:07:47 :P 20:08:55 I think I'll try reading up on some SICP, or watch some lecture 20:09:09 hm, nah too tired to really pay attention 20:11:35 I need some inspiration 20:16:27 eat a buttload of sugar 20:21:56 meh 20:22:05 it's 10 and my sleep cycle is really messed up 20:22:22 10AM? 20:30:41 PM 20:30:54 damnit Onionnion|Eee thats 22 20:31:04 it is 20:31:24 your sleep cycle is fine, mine its 31 here 20:31:33 s/mine// 20:32:14 and i probably wont sleep, because i need to get ready for new years, stay up for 2 days 20:32:44 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 20:32:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 20:32:59 ill need to make a basement so the bullets wont get to me 20:33:22 it seems i am sleepy, ill stop talking now, gnight 20:37:31 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 20:39:55 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 20:39:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 20:47:12 I'll be up some more 21:04:08 --- join: anannie (~anannie@95.211.99.11) joined #forth 21:04:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +v anannie 21:15:07 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:18:59 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 21:18:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 21:28:08 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 21:30:17 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 21:30:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 21:34:59 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:37:29 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 21:37:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 21:40:40 --- quit: tgunr_ (Read error: Operation timed out) 21:44:58 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 21:44:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 22:26:02 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 22:31:44 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 22:31:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 22:53:51 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 22:55:26 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 22:55:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 23:00:22 --- quit: I440r (Remote host closed the connection) 23:00:44 --- quit: Onionnion|Eee (Quit: Leaving) 23:22:29 i win 23:25:44 --- quit: kumul (Quit: fufufu) 23:31:59 --- join: ASau (~user@217.118.90.192) joined #forth 23:32:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 23:32:19 --- quit: tgunr_ (Read error: Operation timed out) 23:33:42 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 23:33:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre-laptop 23:35:28 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 23:35:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 23:44:14 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.173) joined #forth 23:44:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 23:57:39 --- quit: tgunr_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:59:15 --- join: tgunr_ (~davec@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 23:59:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tgunr_ 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.12.29