00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.12.14 00:15:49 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.172) joined #forth 00:15:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 00:24:38 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 01:32:54 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 01:32:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 03:31:23 --- quit: karswell_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 03:35:52 --- join: karswell_ (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 03:35:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell_ 05:50:56 --- join: protist (~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 05:50:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v protist 06:05:14 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:05:53 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 06:05:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty^ 07:15:02 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08:05:27 --- quit: protist (Quit: leaving) 08:10:01 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 08:10:01 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Zarutian 08:10:37 * beretta slaps himself. " parsing words are bad", he says. 08:50:45 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.172) joined #forth 08:50:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 09:11:30 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 09:11:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 09:29:54 --- join: ASau (~user@46.115.49.59) joined #forth 09:29:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 09:34:29 beretta: depends on your perspective. they can be useful, but without adaquate documentation may make code harder to follow 09:37:54 I always jump ahead to parsing word, rather then define words that don't parse first, THEN wrap them in a parsing verson. 09:48:57 --- join: ASau` (~user@46.115.66.222) joined #forth 09:48:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau` 09:50:59 --- quit: ASau` (Remote host closed the connection) 09:51:24 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 09:51:43 --- join: ASau` (~user@46.115.66.222) joined #forth 09:51:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau` 11:04:56 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping 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17:56:56 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvvv dzho ttmrichter gnooth cataska 17:56:56 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@static.88-198-159-196.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-107-8-120-84.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvvv Bahman beretta nighty^ Zarutian 17:56:56 --- join: ASau` (~user@46.115.66.222) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- join: kumul (~kumul@cvx-ppp-66-50-141-36.coqui.net) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 17:56:56 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvv ASau` kumul Nisstyre 18:02:38 --- quit: Zarutian (*.net *.split) 18:02:39 --- quit: dzho (*.net *.split) 18:02:39 --- quit: gnooth (*.net *.split) 18:02:40 --- quit: kumul (*.net *.split) 18:02:40 --- quit: cataska (*.net 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#forth 18:03:50 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: rixard (~rixard@81-235-139-119-no63.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvvv djinni_ carc segher rixard 18:03:50 --- join: dzho (~deejoe@quercus.etrumeus.com) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@178-119-53-170.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: gnooth (~gnooth@108-249-104-182.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: cataska (~cataska@210.64.6.233) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvvv dzho ttmrichter gnooth cataska 18:03:50 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@static.88-198-159-196.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-107-8-120-84.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvvv Bahman beretta nighty^ Zarutian 18:03:50 --- join: ASau` (~user@46.115.66.222) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: kumul (~kumul@cvx-ppp-66-50-141-36.coqui.net) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 18:03:50 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +vvv ASau` kumul Nisstyre 18:05:06 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-68-254-160-140.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 18:05:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion 18:07:59 --- join: karswell_ (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 18:07:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell_ 18:09:02 --- join: ASau`` (~user@46.115.109.210) joined #forth 18:09:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau`` 18:12:24 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:25:21 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:47:19 --- join: kumul (~kumul@cvx-ppp-66-50-141-36.coqui.net) joined #forth 18:47:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +v kumul 19:30:17 --- quit: Zarutian (Remote host closed the connection) 19:39:51 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 20:03:53 --- quit: karswell_ (Remote host closed the connection) 20:14:15 --- join: karswell_ (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 20:14:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell_ 20:25:54 --- join: Onionnion|Eee (~ryan@adsl-68-254-160-140.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 20:25:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion|Eee 20:43:33 --- quit: karswell_ (Remote host closed the connection) 20:53:48 --- join: karswell_ (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 20:53:48 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell_ 20:58:55 of the 4 forths i test my code on; this behaves different : t 5 >r 10 0 do i . j . 2r@ . . cr loop r> drop ; t \ heehaha 21:00:07 the weirdest is gforth, which uses r@ as an: i negate 21:00:39 no wait, pfe 21:00:43 huh.... I don't think ANS forth specifies HOW DO...LOOP works. 21:01:07 I think gforth has a good idea. 21:01:40 counting up from a negative value lets you see easier when the loop is finish. 21:01:41 i dont know what the point of i is if it does the same thing r@ does 21:02:19 I is a ANS word to hide the machanism of DO...LOOP 21:02:32 mm thats... probably valid, there are other ways of testing a loop though 21:02:50 some implimentation may have a separate stack just for looping. 21:03:08 then r@ and I would be different. 21:03:31 There's some weirdness will the ANS DO...LOOP... 21:03:37 will = with 21:04:19 the loop end when crossing the 0 / 1 line. 21:05:16 I never quite figured DO...LOOP. I just use FOR/NEXT instead.. with the added benefit that FOR tests *before* the body. 21:05:39 : type for c@+ emit next drop ; 21:06:03 is quite simple, and it works with 0 sized strings. 21:06:44 and I can never remember which stack arg is the count and which is the limit 21:07:16 and I never found I or J ( or K ) that usefull in real programming. 21:08:34 they're useful if they can be depended on as the top n rstack elements 21:08:52 i always invert them! but i found that some forths lack for, so i stay with do loops for now 21:08:53 you only really need i if you're using loops 21:10:05 do FOR/NEXT is a bastard child of forth. I like it though.... 21:10:06 btw whats so wrong about using pick/roll ? 21:10:35 --- quit: Onionnion|Eee (Remote host closed the connection) 21:11:28 nothing wrong... some (most) processors natively do pick pretty fast, and roll not so much. There just a good sign that your factoring is wacky. 21:11:29 diminishing stack items is supposed to be a good idea 21:11:29 for...next is not appropriate for all situations but it can be implemented in hardware very simply, which is nice 21:11:42 It's like the much-maligned "goto" in C 21:11:58 RodgerTheGreat: :) 21:13:03 I don't do much with I or J or K... dunno why... I guess I don't do as much math as other programmers. 21:13:21 basically if chuck deigns to support something in his forth machines it's worth thinking about 21:13:35 it probably means there's a really good reason to have it 21:13:49 agreed. 21:14:15 beretta: I use i j k as an alternative to locals in some situations 21:14:35 like if you have a single value you're threading through a lot of code 21:15:08 but I J and K *might* not point to the return stack... lemme check ans... brb 21:15:27 when I'm writing something like entity code in a video game, I have routines that run for every entity and do something like "look up my position, check if I collide with some bounding box, update my position, change my sprite" etc 21:15:30 beretta: correct 21:15:35 it is implementation dependent 21:16:46 * beretta ponders 21:16:57 in my forth i j k are rstack elements 21:17:07 I can't think of the last time I actually used k 21:17:12 j I use occasionally 21:17:16 i I use frequently 21:17:48 beretta: are you new here? I don't recall talking to you. 21:17:57 I'm new, yes. 21:18:02 nice to meet you. 21:18:03 cool beans 21:18:13 what brings you to forth? 21:18:20 or, at least, #forth 21:18:31 was tired of counting ('s and ) 21:18:37 haha 21:19:01 and trying to remember how to prototype a point to a function in C 21:19:21 oh yeah I hate function pointer signatures 21:19:30 forth makes it so much easier to work with function pointers 21:19:50 *(do this)(*)ffood( (siley *)things ) []={ ..... and so on and so on. 21:20:25 forth is *my* syntax...(and a few blank spaces in weird places....) 21:20:51 I fell in love... mawha?!?! NO syntax? Awesome! 21:21:13 highly plastic syntax 21:21:32 and the beauty of NO operators (or functions with special syntax) is great too. 21:22:24 the downside to forth is that I can't take anyone seriously anymore when they talk about how X is a "simple" language 21:22:35 lol 21:22:52 Smalltalk, for example, is supposedly simple but has three syntaxes for invoking a method 21:23:01 what 21:23:35 or somebody shows me a "simple" compiler for their language which is 10k lines 21:23:40 a troll on the other channel argued that a programing language can't be self-hosting without operators, so the programer did have to write them (?>!?!?!) 21:23:53 hunh 21:25:05 yeah... he is mind-warped on C. He was surprised to here that in some C's * and / just boil down to plan old functions... with header and locals, and epilogue and stack cleanup... 21:25:32 first show him lisp 21:26:00 and then be like "now, if you implemented something like lisp except actually simple you would have Forth" 21:26:04 operators just confuse novice programmers. operators=functions ( or Words ) 21:27:26 ah... I think c2 or lamba had some great discussions on Lisp vs. Forth being opposite beauties of each other. 21:27:55 one completely post fix and the other completely pre fix 21:28:22 the lambda calculus has a dual in the theory of concatenative combinators 21:29:27 really? I never studied much of lisp, nor of deep cs theory... I should, however. 21:29:47 both languages elegantly support recursion. Higher-order functions are slightly trickier in Forth, and variable arguments/return values are trickier in Lisp. 21:30:13 Lisp requires the overhead of GC and environment structures to support its semantics, though, while Forth just needs stacks 21:30:28 beretta: what's your background? 21:31:03 I even work in stacks now (like real life things)... its kinda weird... 21:31:34 I even see CP (or HERE) as a "reverse" stack. 21:31:48 not a bad way to visualize it 21:32:05 background... hmm... been noodling with computer since I was 5 (I'm 37 now) 21:32:46 at the moment I'm an ivory-tower dweller tinkering with compilers 21:33:07 no professional experience. nor schooling (in computers) 21:33:48 they're a good source of puzzles, though, eh? 21:33:49 I vowed a long time ago NOT to work in computers as I did want to turn a love hobby into a crappy 9-5 job... 21:34:34 no... the computers are great... it my brain that produces the puzzles :) 21:34:58 I have some professional experience in "the industry" and I can vouch for the fact that doing it 9-5 seriously reduces the amount of energy I have to tinker when I get home 21:35:55 Yeah... forth's really up my tinkering. 21:36:27 I was asked to do this: https://sites.google.com/site/cocoboot2/ 21:37:04 spiffy 21:37:54 but please don't look at the forth code behind it... it admitedly horrible. I new better, but I was playing every trick in the book to squeeze crap into 4600 bytes. 21:39:54 well you can't say something like that without piquing my curiosity 21:41:08 Now I have to work on a "target" compiler... It sounds like a brain twister, and I have little experience with wordlists... although I implimented them as I have a hunch they'll come in handy soon. 21:41:54 I'm looking at the forth source to dw.dsk and I find it fairly readable 21:42:05 you format your code pretty much how I do 21:42:42 ; on its own line seems to be a habit inherited from using curly-bracket languages in the past 21:42:52 thanks! I try.... 21:43:14 yes, I'm trying to get away from the separate ; 21:43:40 in the interest of fairness, here's a project I've been working on lately: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/demos/Loko/Loko.fs 21:44:53 if you grok around in the cocoboot source find /src/forth.fs ... that's the meat of the system. 21:45:50 ah, I see 21:45:58 I was digging around in the release files 21:46:29 that's the most hideous debauchery of coding... 21:48:22 wow... loko's pretty intense. 21:48:43 it is moderately complex 21:49:06 garbage collected functional languages can get that way 21:49:27 oh yeah... I see the GC words. 21:49:41 honestly I have no idea how I would've implemented tail-call optimization if I *hadn't* been writing this in Forth 21:49:59 hopefully you mean "intense" as "interesting" rather than "terrifying" 21:50:01 hahaha. 21:52:03 butfirst and butlast.... hahaha 21:52:19 are those normal logo commands ? 21:52:26 I was just following the primitive names in Apple ][ logo. :) 21:52:40 there is no official Logo standard 21:52:54 although UCBLogo is kinda defacto 21:53:10 huh.. I figured logo would have a standard. 21:53:16 my favorite is the generic dereference operator- "thing" 21:53:51 I remember learning logo as a kid and thinking: "really?" 21:54:05 it is very simple, though 21:54:22 I'm teaching an after-school program for middle schoolers using Loko 21:54:33 perhaps I will work them up to Forth 21:54:48 but I was already on to rotting my brain with BASIC well before the teach rolled out LOGO 21:54:57 same here 21:55:04 I actually started them with a TinyBASIC 21:55:11 nice 21:55:22 https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/blob/master/demos/Masica/MASICA.fs 21:55:28 ^ much, much simpler 21:56:08 BASIC is a good way to teach core concepts but the limited facilities for abstraction mean they outgrow it quickly 21:56:13 logo is much more flexible 21:57:21 it still isn't Forth, but it has the guts of a lisp with syntax for humans 21:57:25 nice a basic in forth... love it. 21:58:25 that one's technically a JIT compiler, as that was slightly simpler than writing an interpreter. :D 21:58:40 I'm still a bit of a novice in Forth, really. I'm still learning how to use "create...does>" 21:59:21 http://Galileo.phys.Virginia.EDU/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm <- this guide was a large part of what made it "click" for me 22:04:52 ah.. I have not read this guide. 22:05:44 it is by the author of Scientific Forth, an interesting but frustratingly hard to get ahold of book about numerical methods in Forth 22:06:11 have you heard of the official "lolcat" language spec? 22:06:16 yes 22:07:45 --- quit: kumul (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2) 22:08:24 I had a good laugh when I read lolcat's "bye" is "kbyenow" 22:09:06 it could be an amusing exercise to implement Lolcat as a DSL in Forth 22:09:19 DSL ? 22:09:30 Domain Specific Language 22:09:47 normally embedded inside another language 22:10:11 often it is used to refer to simply adding some syntax to a language 22:10:38 all the trendy scripting languages are doing it these days 22:11:25 oh... yeah... I beleive that was the joke... Me and a friend (who I introduced to forth, who "got it" fast) who were discussing the cocoboot project and how the dictionary could be overridden... and we thought a fun prank would be to inpliment "lolcat" 22:11:49 just a bit of syntactic iodine 22:19:39 well. I'm seeing double... time for bed. 22:19:41 'night 22:24:00 good night 22:24:05 see you around 22:47:08 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:59:21 --- join: Bahman_ (~Bahman@2.147.52.245) joined #forth 22:59:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman_ 22:59:28 --- quit: Bahman_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:00:07 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:32:57 --- nick: ASau`` -> ASau 23:53:38 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.172) joined #forth 23:53:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 23:59:17 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@static.88-198-159-196.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 23:59:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.12.14