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11:04:15 <rixard> Any Forth masters in attendence?
11:04:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not really a master but there is a vague chance I could answer questions
11:04:58 <RodgerTheGreat> what's up?
11:10:13 <rixard> Nice to meet you Rodger, I don't have a specific question at the moment.
11:10:29 <RodgerTheGreat> are you new to forth?
11:10:51 <rixard> Just wanted to see if anyone actually checks the channel from time to time.
11:10:56 <rixard> yes I am
11:11:02 <RodgerTheGreat> it can be rather quiet
11:11:17 <RodgerTheGreat> what kinds of things are you interested in doing with Forth?
11:11:43 <rixard> I am a hobbyist programmer: played with basic, python and a little ruby
11:12:08 <rixard> I'd like to explore microcontrollers
11:12:22 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
11:12:36 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a few people here who tinker with arm and msp430 chips
11:13:08 <rixard> I see, anyone tried the greenarray chips?
11:13:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I haven't, but I have read quite a bit about them
11:14:02 <rixard> What do you make of it? :-)
11:15:03 <rixard> do they seem like something worth trying?
11:15:04 <RodgerTheGreat> the GA144 is a really, really cool piece of hardware searching for a problem
11:15:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it would be interesting trying to emulate conventional CPUs on it
11:15:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll bet you could emulate four or five MIPS cores on one
11:16:00 <RodgerTheGreat> might even be more power efficient than a real one
11:16:09 <rixard> I am not quite sure what attracted me to Forth, the Jupiter Ace probably had something to do with it.
11:16:37 <rixard> That's an interesting thought.
11:16:50 <rixard> What do you use Forth for?
11:16:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I like playing with compilers and VMs, and I enjoy the fact that writing a Forth is often easier than writing an assembler
11:17:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I like to use forth to write compilers and video games
11:17:52 <rixard> Are you from the UK?
11:18:06 <RodgerTheGreat> nope, I'm from the US
11:18:15 <rixard> Judging by the spelling of Rodger, oh ok.
11:18:25 <rixard> I'm from Sweden
11:18:44 <RodgerTheGreat> this planet keeps getting smaller
11:19:01 <rixard> What kind of games have you written in Forth?
11:19:18 <rixard> Haha, I hear ya; blame the net.
11:19:34 <RodgerTheGreat> a number of arcade-style things and a few slightly longer form things
11:19:41 <RodgerTheGreat> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
11:19:41 <rixard> Cool
11:20:05 <RodgerTheGreat> for some reason github thinks .fs files are F#
11:20:24 <RodgerTheGreat> if I recall correctly my project is something like the #13 "F#" project on github
11:21:20 <RodgerTheGreat> lately I've been doing a lot of tinkering with a Logo implementation written in Forth: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/demos/Loko
11:21:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been using it to teach introductory programming to middle-schoolers
11:21:59 <rixard> Nice, I'll check it out when I get off my couch.
11:22:00 <RodgerTheGreat> we started with BASIC, now Logo and perhaps eventually I'll teach 'em Forth
11:22:17 <rixard> haha nice name for it
11:22:46 <rixard> cool, could be something for my daughter down the line.
11:23:53 <RodgerTheGreat> how old is she?
11:23:56 <rixard> I'm on my ipad atm (which could use a port of Forth) but I'll check the games out later tonight.
11:24:01 <rixard> 2 years
11:24:24 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- yeah, probably not ready for programming just yet. :)
11:24:45 <RodgerTheGreat> to build my toolchain and everything you just need java and ant
11:24:49 <rixard> I guesa she should learn to read and write first ;-)
11:24:56 <RodgerTheGreat> let me know if you have any trouble
11:24:57 <rixard> what is ant?
11:25:10 <RodgerTheGreat> ant is a build tool for java, sort of like make
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11:25:17 <rixard> I'm on OSX normally
11:25:20 <rixard> oh ok
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11:25:45 <RodgerTheGreat> macs have java and ant installed out of the box, although it may need to "install" javac the first time you use it
11:25:49 <RodgerTheGreat> should be pretty painless
11:25:51 <rixard> How long have you been a Fort devotee?
11:25:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm on OSX as well
11:26:01 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe two years or so?
11:26:31 <rixard> What languages did you use before that?
11:26:48 <RodgerTheGreat> mostly Java- it's still among my favorite languages
11:26:59 <rixard> :-)
11:27:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Java is not beautiful, but it's sturdy. Good cross-platform support, good libraries, good tooling
11:27:18 <rixard> I have never used it but java looks awful
11:27:23 <rixard> yeah
11:27:29 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not for everybody
11:27:56 <rixard> I guess Java and c++ are two of the most used programming languages oit there
11:28:06 <rixard> s/oit/out
11:28:17 <RodgerTheGreat> most likely
11:28:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I enjoy the fact that I can (and do!) write code in Java and have it work on android devices, macs, linux machines and even some toy mp3 players
11:29:28 <rixard> Yeah, that's one of Javas strengths
11:29:45 <rixard> IHave you played Minecraft?
11:29:49 <RodgerTheGreat> yes
11:30:10 <RodgerTheGreat> a good example of how in the right hands Java can be great for writing games, too
11:30:11 <rixard> I was blown away when I learnes it was written in Kava
11:30:15 <rixard> Java
11:30:21 <rixard> yeah
11:30:30 <RodgerTheGreat> the other big Java game was RuneScape
11:30:41 <rixard> damn touch keyboard
11:30:57 <rixard> Oh that was Java too huh
11:31:10 <rixard> used to play it with my kid brother
11:32:32 <rixard> So, back to Forth. which version should I use?
11:32:55 <rixard> I found one called pforth that built without and problem
11:33:09 <rixard> couldn't get gforth to build
11:33:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I have heard people say good things about that
11:33:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I use gforth on my machine, but it's been a while since I updated
11:33:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I installed it via darwinports
11:33:47 <RodgerTheGreat> er
11:33:47 <rixard> oh
11:33:47 <RodgerTheGreat> macports
11:33:58 <rixard> I tried to build from src
11:34:02 <rixard> myself
11:34:27 <RodgerTheGreat> if you have a package manager it can save you a lot of hassle
11:34:42 <rixard> hmm, I'd better get my ass upstairs to my mac. gimme one minute
11:34:52 * RodgerTheGreat starts a timer
11:35:05 <rixard> gotta pee too
11:35:14 <rixard> cancel that timer! ;-)
11:38:13 <rixard> there
11:38:21 <rixard> Finally a real keyboard :D
11:38:36 <RodgerTheGreat> glorious
11:39:22 <rixard> What attracted you to Forth? Are you an old-timer or are you a young person? :D
11:39:30 <rixard> I am 31.
11:39:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm 24
11:39:42 <RodgerTheGreat> "young"
11:39:50 <rixard> 1F in hex according to forth :D
11:40:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I like forth because I appreciate simplicity
11:41:05 <rixard> Same here, I sometimes appreciate doing something within a terminal because of the simplicity and power.
11:41:21 <rixard> Nothing against a fancy GUI but sometimes it's nice with a scaled down environment to work in.
11:42:02 <RodgerTheGreat> you'd probably like loko too, then
11:43:36 <rixard> the examples at the bottom of the Loko page looks a lot like Forth.
11:43:42 <rixard> to my untrained eye that is...
11:44:02 <RodgerTheGreat> well, logo is prefix whereas forth is postfix
11:44:07 <rixard> I have actually been thinking that I should teach my daughter programming from an early age, and that Logo would be my first choice.
11:44:40 <RodgerTheGreat> logo is good because you can use the turtle to get beginners to reason from the computer's perspective
11:44:59 <RodgerTheGreat> it's easy to imagine yourself as the turtle, following instructions one at a time
11:45:04 <rixard> Yeah
11:45:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and then gradually you can work up to fairly sophisticated stuff
11:45:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it is, after all, a lisp on the inside
11:45:34 <rixard> I wish my dad was interested in computers when I was a kid.
11:45:44 <rixard> he went with pure electronics instead.
11:45:54 <rixard> HAM radio and stuff.
11:45:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I started my classes with a TinyBASIC because it is syntactically and semantically even simpler than Logo
11:46:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I think exposing them to a variety of genuinely different ideas will provide a better base for the real skills of programming
11:46:49 <RodgerTheGreat> learning to program and learning a specific language are almost entirely orthogonal, they just tend to be taught at the same time
11:47:10 <rixard> Yeah
11:47:18 <rixard> I can program in my head
11:47:26 <rixard> but sometimes a languages syntax get in the way
11:47:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I think Forth could be a good beginner's language, but I am concerned that some of the kinds of mistakes you're allowed to make would be too punishing/confusing
11:48:03 <rixard> like C, I had to look up everything all the time. No time for me to focus on what I was trying to accomplish(print some words, fetch some words and compare them to an array etc).
11:48:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I have been toying with the idea of creating a forth dialect specifically meant for beginners
11:48:37 <RodgerTheGreat> with more run-time checks and more detailed error messages, etc
11:48:42 <rixard> Yeah
11:49:06 <rixard> Perhaps being able to turn that mode on and off. 
11:49:27 <rixard> So when you get more advanced you can just turn it off and not be bothered by it if you want to do more advanced stuff.
11:49:45 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
11:49:46 <rixard> but I guess it would be hard since Forth doesn't seem to have much of a syntax to begin with.
11:50:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's a tractable problem
11:51:19 <rixard> had to look that word up ;-)
11:51:29 <RodgerTheGreat> mainly I want to prevent things like accidentally overwriting part of the dictionary, catching potentially infinite loops, etc
11:51:36 <rixard> yeah
11:51:41 <RodgerTheGreat> many general classes of errors have simple means of prevention
11:51:57 <rixard> but I assume you can't crash the host via random writes to memory?
11:52:04 <rixard> like you could on a machine with no OS on it.
11:52:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking I'd just implement a simple memory protection mechanism
11:52:59 <RodgerTheGreat> so that ! and @ would internally do some checks before doing anything
11:53:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it would slow the system down quite a bit, but forth is way faster than it needs to be for beginners anyway
11:53:29 <rixard> True
11:53:43 <rixard> uhm but are check neccessary for @? It only fetches data right?
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11:53:48 <rixard> *noob warning*
11:53:57 <RodgerTheGreat> correct, @ only fetches data
11:54:06 <RodgerTheGreat> ! is the real danger
11:54:16 <rixard> so putting the checks only on ! would negate some of the slow down.
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11:54:35 <rixard> I am just thinking out loud here, not meant to disrespect you.
11:54:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm in no way offended
11:55:02 <RodgerTheGreat> but in general I'm not at all concerned about performance
11:55:35 <rixard> How fast or slow is Forth on a modern computer?
11:55:50 <RodgerTheGreat> depends on the forth but in general pretty damn fast
11:55:52 <koisoke_> delurk: there are a lot of integers that could pass for pointers though, so i don't see how such checks could be made reliable without some sort of tagged word system.
11:55:54 <rixard> it won't beat C or C++ ofc but… compared to Python, Java or something like that
11:56:01 <RodgerTheGreat> much like modern computers in general
11:56:13 <RodgerTheGreat> koisoke_: my thoughts exactly
11:56:48 <RodgerTheGreat> that's why I was thinking about writing a VM with a tagged architecture rather than trying to extend something like gforth
11:57:48 <RodgerTheGreat> then you could even do things like tag rstack values for calls to allow you to easily unwind the stack directly and differentiate between temporary values and the calls
12:01:16 <koisoke_> tagging everything one ends up with a colorforth that extends the tags from compile time into runtime, which is somthing that has been on my todo list for longer than i care to admit...
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12:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> koisoke_: the two main uses I've come up with for meta-bits are distinguishing between values and pointers, and making "symbols" (as provided in many scripting languages) which cannot be accidentally confused with numbers
12:03:22 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm sure there are many more
12:03:53 <RodgerTheGreat> the rudiments of a type system without dragging in too much baggage
12:05:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and then you just need a pair of primitives for splitting a value into the "meta" half and the "value" half, and combining a pair of values to go the other way
12:05:33 <koisoke_> to go the other way?
12:05:48 <RodgerTheGreat> smashing a desired set of meta bits onto a value
12:06:16 <koisoke_> should only be necessary for ffi if everything in the world is tagged?
12:06:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and very occasionally in places like compiler internals
12:08:15 <RodgerTheGreat> basically I'm imagining a system where every word in memory or on the stack has meta bits which are persisted around transparently and generally ignored, but which can be queried or set for special purposes
12:09:51 <RodgerTheGreat> "memory protection" mechanisms and so on built in this fashion would not be secure per se but could be made much more resilient to human error
12:10:12 <RodgerTheGreat> the latter, I think, has some value
12:15:22 <RodgerTheGreat> koisoke_: see what I mean?
12:18:59 <koisoke_> yes. have toyed with the idea of splitting up the tags and non-meta parts of each word, so eg for each 4kB page on a 32-bit arch there would be 768 8-bit tags, 256 bytes for GC scratch area or whatever, and 768 words (non-tag parts)
12:19:41 <RodgerTheGreat> that's an interesting approach
12:22:03 <koisoke_> this probalby premature optimization, but i have also toyed with interleaving the tags bits, so the first byte of a tag word would have the low two bits of four tags, so for the most common cases the types of the next four words would be apparent from one byte, which is small enough for a jump table
12:22:36 <RodgerTheGreat> hmm
12:23:19 <koisoke_> have not implemented this yet so i'm not confident saying it works efficiently in actual practice
12:31:13 <rixard> *building gforth via macports*
12:32:14 <rixard> blech: Error: org.macports.build for port gtkspell2 returned: command execution failed
12:42:16 <rixard> So, while I sort out the macports issue: Any good tutorials for Forth that are reasonable up-to-date or current?
12:43:00 <rixard> And is there any software written in Forth that one should know about - not counting embedded stuff.
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