00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.11.15
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11:44:08 <JasonDamisch> http://home.comcast.net/~forther/SVFIG/
11:44:14 <JasonDamisch> Forth Day planned talks
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14:32:48 <JasonDamisch> hi
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14:47:46 <JasonDamisch> room mate listing to Queen on the Roku
14:47:52 <JasonDamisch> lol
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15:53:29 <JasonWoof> How about a little Bohemian Rhapsody gentlemen?
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16:48:22 <JasonDamisch> hi again
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18:29:56 <JasonWoof> howdy howdy
18:30:01 <JasonWoof> guess who's procrastinating?
18:31:29 <JasonWoof> just tried openclonk
18:31:48 <JasonWoof> looks like they did a pretty good job with basic movement
18:32:15 <JasonWoof> (ie the character doesn't go too unbearably slow, or get hung up on pixel-sized steps or anything)
18:33:04 <JasonWoof> but then I get a segfault. I should probably restart x11, there have been several updates to x11 and I think a couple to my video card drivers since I've had it running
18:33:18 <JasonWoof> but, I should do my work first
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19:42:03 <JasonDamisch> what is openclonk,  a videogame written in Forth for Linux?
19:42:14 <JasonDamisch> do not know
19:43:56 <JasonWoof> nothing to do with forth I'm afraid
19:48:46 <JasonWoof> I haven't done much forth in a long time
19:49:29 <JasonWoof> coffeescript/node seem to be my favorite tinkering tools these days
19:53:25 <JasonWoof> the greenarray thing looks pretty cool though
19:53:52 <JasonWoof> not sure what to do with it though
19:54:00 <JasonWoof> seems like the sort of thing you could make killer devices with
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20:08:37 <JasonDamisch> I am not an embedded systems person, so I don't know myself.
20:09:04 <JasonDamisch> funny thing is, last year when I was at Forth Day at Stanford, I given a GA144 as a prize, a few were given away 
20:09:31 <JasonDamisch> along with a SmartBoard to hook it up with.  I have never hooked up an embedded systems computer in my life.
20:10:10 <JasonDamisch> I'm sorry to say that it remains a Souvenir 
20:10:28 <JasonDamisch> Along with my nanotech pressure sensor and my thin film solar panel sample
20:10:40 <JasonDamisch> I'm wondering if i still have the solar power sample.
20:11:49 <JasonDamisch> For the GA144 you have to spread your application across many cores, because each core only has 64 cells of RAM.  Floorplanning is supposed to be the major change to developing for it.
20:12:22 <JasonDamisch> I wonder if there are any other people in here who have used Forth much?
20:24:17 <JasonWoof> 64 words?
20:27:28 <JasonWoof> huh
20:27:43 <JasonWoof> looks like those 64 words are accessible in two places in the address space
20:27:55 <JasonWoof> odd
20:28:54 <JasonWoof> that's not much!
20:29:07 <JasonWoof> you've gotta fit your program in there, not just data
20:29:44 <JasonWoof> the ROM section cannot be changed after the chip is manufactured right?
20:34:08 <JasonDamisch> the ROM cannot be changed after manufacturing, yes.  But it can be customized for each chip run if you have many many chips to make
20:34:26 <JasonDamisch> 64 words are enough for several Forth words
20:35:01 <JasonDamisch> and if you say multiply 7*144, then theoretically that is how many Forth words you have to work with, but this is a very rough guestimate
20:35:27 <JasonDamisch> so you use a handful of Forth words to do something, and then pass the results on to another core with another handful of Forth words, and go on
20:36:09 <JasonDamisch> Theoretically you can have a single Forth word occupy a single memory cell by means of a micro-next loop
20:36:25 <JasonDamisch> but the contents of that word can only have a few instructions in it
20:37:05 <JasonDamisch> Remember that each cell can have 3 or 4 machine primitives in it.
20:37:53 <JasonDamisch> There is another core which eliminates the fact that those 64 cells are accessible in two places in the address space
20:38:28 <JasonDamisch> if anybody is really interested in learning more about the GA144, then Greg Bailey and some other folks have posted some videos on YouTube ment as a sort of tutorial about using the chip
20:38:59 <ttmrichter> JasonDamisch: I've used Forth in embedded systems way back in prehistory.
20:39:06 <JasonDamisch> But I'm sure that real programming skills and experience will be necessary.  This thing is NOT foar newbz
20:39:29 <JasonDamisch> lol, like in the good old days, between now and the cowboy days?
20:40:05 <ttmrichter> Well, in the early '80s if that counts.  :)
20:40:05 <JasonDamisch> ttmrichter, care to be present in #forth for Forth Day?  I'm probably going to be in here and watch the live feed of the Forth Day talks
20:40:10 <JasonDamisch> :)
20:40:16 <ttmrichter> Never heard of Forth Days.
20:40:21 <ttmrichter> So when is it?
20:40:30 <ttmrichter> And what time?  (I'm in UTC+8 so ...)
20:40:33 <JasonDamisch> This Saturday, the 17th
20:40:42 <JasonDamisch> 8:00am to 4:00pm Pacific 
20:40:56 <ttmrichter> What is "Pacific" in offset?
20:41:05 <JasonDamisch> Pacific standard time.
20:41:15 <ttmrichter> Offset.  +7/-5, etc.
20:41:31 <JasonDamisch> I'm not sure, what is a rough estimate of your exact location, i.e.  Great Britian?
20:41:55 <ttmrichter> China.
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20:42:29 <JasonDamisch> if not the videos will be posted in YouTube at some point
20:42:59 <ttmrichter> I'll definitely look them up.
20:43:13 <ttmrichter> Particularly if Moore talks.  I like a guy who sounds unabashedly like a cowboy.  :D
20:43:18 <JasonDamisch> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
20:43:23 <JasonDamisch> :)
20:45:22 <JasonDamisch> The second half, the afternoon, will be all about Green Arrays
20:48:29 <ttmrichter> So Chuck will definitely speak then.  :)
20:48:41 <ttmrichter> I wish there were an affordable eval board for GAs.
20:49:04 <ttmrichter> They need to learn from companies like ST Microelectronics for pricing their eval stuff.
20:49:14 * ttmrichter eyes his stack of STM8 and STM32 eval boards.
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20:51:13 <JasonDamisch> Their volume is small compared to those guys, but inspite of that, they have sold some eval boards
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20:52:20 <JasonDamisch> supposedly the alternative is to get a GA144, and use it with Schmart Board  http://www.greenarraychips.com/blog1/?p=149 
20:52:35 <JasonDamisch> But that would require even more electronics skills to solder to the GA144, and to other parts.
20:52:51 <JasonDamisch> I suggest that if you are really fascinated, watch the videos on YouTube, and then try the simulator
20:54:27 <RodgerTheGreat> JasonWoof: the reason the addresses for the RAM are doubled is because originally the F18 was designed to have 128 words of ram
20:55:06 <RodgerTheGreat> as it was developed chuck realized he didn't really need that much and cutting the ram out reduced the footprint, sped it up slightly and made it more energy efficient
20:55:44 <JasonDamisch> If I was really into it, I would just download their dev tools, and use the simulator, only costs you your time and effort
20:56:16 <RodgerTheGreat> if you aren't a windows user you'll have to build a VM for it
20:56:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and to use ColorForth you have to learn a new keyboard layout
20:56:37 <JasonDamisch> I thought that it would be fun to try it inside of a tiny remote controlled car, but I'm not that good with electronics
20:56:56 <JasonDamisch> I've tried it, but it seems a little weird to me.  I could get used to it if I needed to.
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20:57:34 <RodgerTheGreat> if I had a GA144 and a suitable amount of time I'd try to write some code so that you could use GForth or some other portable conventional Forth to target the device
20:57:43 <JasonDamisch> There ARE complete documentations now.
20:57:50 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
20:57:58 <black_13> i am developing a forth and would like to know how to call external function
20:58:13 <RodgerTheGreat> black_13: like a C function?
20:58:14 <JasonDamisch> there already are two higher level Forths for it, eForth and PolyForth
20:58:18 <black_13> yes
20:58:37 <JasonDamisch> Good question black_13.  I don't know off the top of my head how to do that.
20:58:51 <RodgerTheGreat> you could use this as design guidance: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/C-Interface.html#C-Interface
20:59:02 <black_13> yeah i saw his article
20:59:08 <JasonDamisch> The PolyForth is documented.  It won't run at blazing fast speeds though.
20:59:34 <black_13> how about doing something like this *address=value
20:59:35 <JasonDamisch> I have interfaced with the Windows OS using SwiftForth, but have not implemented that capability myself.
20:59:52 <JasonDamisch> I'm not sure
21:00:10 <black_13> i am putting the forth in a TI MSP430 chip
21:00:26 <RodgerTheGreat> one major thing is that you'll probably need to construct another stack for the C code to use
21:00:30 <black_13> setting values means setting a value to a well know address
21:01:04 <JasonDamisch> could you define a Forth word, like a variable to hold the address?  That would be a known address?
21:01:10 <black_13> oh i wish i had a computer science degree (BS MATH '92)
21:01:37 <JasonDamisch> You could ask in comp.lang.forth?
21:01:48 <black_13> good point
21:02:47 <black_13> at a certain address 0x0xxxxx you set a value you turn on a certain port or tell what the port will do
21:03:19 <JasonDamisch> yes?
21:03:29 <JasonDamisch> have you seen the old washing machine example?
21:03:32 <JasonDamisch> its a clasic
21:03:39 <black_13> yeah 
21:03:51 <black_13> i have a theory
21:04:05 <black_13> the first language you learn screws you up for life
21:04:11 <black_13> for me it was FORTRAN
21:04:49 <JasonDamisch> My first language was Basic on the Atari 800xl
21:04:50 <RodgerTheGreat> black_13: I just started reading a great book in which a seasoned, scarred FORTRAN programmer embraces Forth and starts writing awesome stuff with it
21:05:07 <black_13> what book?
21:05:14 <JasonDamisch> http://www.forth.com/embedded/swiftx-embedded-systems-7.html
21:05:14 <RodgerTheGreat> "Scientific Forth"
21:05:24 <RodgerTheGreat> it is fairly expensive on Amazon
21:05:35 <RodgerTheGreat> you might try your local inter-library loan system
21:05:49 <black_13> luckily i am in funds of late
21:06:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's seriously great
21:06:14 <black_13> however tomorrow i am going to drop 1000 dollars on root canal and crow
21:06:25 <JasonDamisch> YIKES
21:06:37 <black_13> a triffecta of pain
21:06:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm only about 50 pages in but it's already provided an extremely cogent overview of a lot of sophisticated language features with great examples
21:07:01 <black_13> i will check it out
21:07:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it feels like a natural extension of Thinking Forth
21:07:10 <black_13> i got the forth programming manual 
21:07:27 <RodgerTheGreat> if you haven't already you *must* read Starting Forth and Thinking Forth
21:07:31 <RodgerTheGreat> both are free online
21:07:45 <JasonDamisch> I have both of those books in print 
21:07:49 <JasonDamisch> recommended
21:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> me too
21:08:00 <RodgerTheGreat> the dead-tree copies are nicer to read than PDFs
21:08:09 <RodgerTheGreat> and both are pretty easy to come by
21:08:16 <black_13> that book you mentioned on amazon is 189 dollars
21:08:23 <RodgerTheGreat> black_13: yes
21:08:28 <RodgerTheGreat> pretty expensive
21:08:48 <black_13> can i borrow yours
21:08:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I obtained it because I recently obtained a large pile of amazon gift cards
21:09:04 <black_13> i am joking
21:09:05 <JasonDamisch> how old is that book?
21:09:13 <RodgerTheGreat> and a few months ago it was like $500
21:09:16 <JasonDamisch> is the guy who wrote it still making royaltes?
21:09:23 <JasonDamisch> check on ebay
21:09:35 <RodgerTheGreat> it was published in 1992
21:09:47 <RodgerTheGreat> the guy who wrote it died like 10 years ago
21:10:12 <RodgerTheGreat> a friend of mine spent some time trying to track down contact info for his wife to see if we could make the book free, but we didn't get anywhere
21:10:13 <JasonDamisch> if it's only 50 pages, scan it in and post it online
21:10:14 <JasonDamisch> :)
21:10:21 <RodgerTheGreat> no, you misunderstand
21:10:23 <RodgerTheGreat> it's 300 pages
21:10:32 <black_13> yeah its a large book
21:10:32 <JasonDamisch> oops
21:10:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I've *read* 50 pages so far
21:10:42 <JasonDamisch> I see
21:10:47 <black_13> i would be interested in the pages about the fsm
21:11:00 <RodgerTheGreat> black_13: yeah it covers all sorts of crazy stuff
21:11:07 <JasonDamisch> such as?
21:11:23 <black_13> what i would like to see is a forth vm that could be frozen
21:11:29 <RodgerTheGreat> DSLs for finite state machines and infix expressions
21:11:39 <black_13> ah
21:11:44 <black_13> i am getting aroused
21:11:49 <RodgerTheGreat> lots of sophisticated numerical stuff like FFTs, finding roots
21:11:54 <RodgerTheGreat> linear algebra
21:12:00 <RodgerTheGreat> symbolic integration
21:12:18 <black_13> how much did you pay for your copy?
21:12:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think there ARE other books about using Forth like this
21:12:28 <RodgerTheGreat> $180
21:12:38 <RodgerTheGreat> in money that was already Amazon credit
21:13:27 <RodgerTheGreat> when I'm done reading it I'd totally be willing to get this thing scanned, but I don't feel comfortable unless I can get somebody associated with the author to say it's OK
21:14:03 <black_13> i bought "forth programmers handbook"
21:14:18 <RodgerTheGreat> that is supposed to be a very good reference text
21:14:20 <black_13> you said the guy has passed away
21:14:24 <RodgerTheGreat> yes
21:14:45 <black_13> i dont think he will object
21:15:07 <JasonDamisch> But his family might
21:15:10 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
21:15:13 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the problem
21:15:24 <RodgerTheGreat> some of his code is online: http://www.taygeta.com/fsl/docs/551.jvn.fall01/ftran202.htm
21:15:38 <RodgerTheGreat> that is the source to his "FORTRAN in Forth"
21:15:47 <RodgerTheGreat> it illustrates a lot of interesting techniques
21:16:34 <black_13> anyone here familier with GPIB/SCPI
21:16:50 <JasonDamisch> no
21:17:28 <black_13> its bus standard used to control things like signal generator or oscilliscopes
21:17:47 <black_13> you said commands like "SETF 100 HZ"
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21:18:49 <black_13> like your wasthing machine 
21:19:20 <JasonDamisch> oh
21:19:45 <black_13> go from a language that has the VERB at the beginning
21:20:24 <black_13> the company i work for makes motor controllers
21:22:24 <black_13> another thing that has been floating around in my mind has how to store the dictionary in non volatile ram 
21:22:42 <JasonDamisch> wonderful.  It's coming soon
21:23:02 <JasonDamisch> I already have heard about a micro controler board from TI which has FRAM on it
21:23:44 <JasonDamisch> http://www.4e4th.com/ForthForEducation.pdf
21:23:49 <JasonDamisch> this has something about FRAM and Forth
21:24:13 <JasonDamisch> MSPEXP430FR5739
21:24:13 <JasonDamisch> Experimenter Board
21:25:22 <black_13> i have a similar board
21:25:33 <black_13> no fram though
21:25:59 <black_13> i have loaded that forth on one of the boards i have
21:29:20 <JasonDamisch> http://octopart.com/msp-exp430fr5739-texas%2Binstruments-20023871
21:29:34 <JasonDamisch> not too expensive
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