00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.10.29 00:22:32 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) joined #forth 00:22:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v fantazo 00:24:23 --- join: Bahman (~quassel@2.146.106.121) joined #forth 00:24:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 00:31:35 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:05:17 --- quit: Tukeke (Quit: Hackers and Proletarians of the World... Unite!) 01:16:59 --- quit: fantazo (Remote host closed the connection) 01:21:26 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.171) joined #forth 01:21:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 01:56:14 --- join: Bahman_ (~quassel@2.144.72.109) joined #forth 01:56:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman_ 01:56:45 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:57:27 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:30:36 --- quit: Bahman_ (Remote host closed the connection) 02:30:55 --- join: Bahman (~quassel@2.144.72.109) joined #forth 02:30:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 03:00:59 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 03:00:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 03:22:31 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 03:22:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 04:31:11 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 04:36:24 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:41:25 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 04:41:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 04:44:55 --- quit: msmith1 (Quit: Leaving.) 05:01:38 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 05:04:19 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 05:04:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 05:23:45 --- quit: Bahman (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:33:40 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 05:45:53 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 05:45:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 06:57:21 --- join: Tukeke (~Tukeke@unaffiliated/tukeke) joined #forth 06:57:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Tukeke 07:14:57 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 07:14:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty-_ 07:36:51 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) joined #forth 07:36:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v fantazo 07:48:20 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 07:58:35 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 07:58:36 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 08:13:46 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 08:16:07 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 08:16:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 08:24:01 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 08:24:01 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 08:50:46 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 09:00:58 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 09:00:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 09:30:11 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 09:37:35 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 09:46:10 --- join: MikeTT (~Mike@host86-166-130-171.range86-166.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 09:46:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MikeTT 09:47:49 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 09:47:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 09:48:31 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:48:31 --- quit: nighty-_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:49:36 --- part: MikeTT left #forth 09:57:30 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 09:57:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty-_ 09:59:29 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@TOROON12-1279662182.sdsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 09:59:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty- 10:00:16 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:01:07 --- quit: nighty-_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:01:50 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 10:01:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty-_ 10:04:20 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 10:04:20 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty- 10:07:38 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 10:17:53 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 10:17:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 10:37:23 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 10:40:51 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.171) joined #forth 10:40:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 10:47:42 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 10:47:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 12:14:23 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@142.sub-70-194-133.myvzw.com) joined #forth 12:14:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o mark4 12:14:42 ok how many of the people in here are just bots? 12:14:46 besides clog of course lol 12:23:48 i am :P 12:23:50 o/ 12:24:06 mark4: you could always kick everyone and see who re-joins 12:24:14 --- join: kumul (~kumul@173.215.130.73) joined #forth 12:24:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +v kumul 12:24:27 there's 3 nighty people.. i guess the chan's not too big 12:30:11 kicking someone isnt a way of telling if they are a bot or not :P 12:48:56 well the trick is to make people complain :P 12:53:05 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 12:54:59 theres asa u for that 13:04:10 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 13:09:39 --- join: Onionnion|Eee (~ryan@adsl-68-254-167-6.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 13:09:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion|Eee 13:14:24 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 13:14:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 13:17:33 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@71-13-215-128.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com) joined #forth 13:17:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +v RodgerTheGreat 13:42:06 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 13:47:43 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 13:52:22 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 13:52:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 13:59:57 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:00:28 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:15:59 --- join: Bahman (~quassel@2.144.75.46) joined #forth 14:16:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bahman 15:00:47 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 15:00:47 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 15:06:12 --- quit: Tukeke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:11:19 - 15:11:29 what's up, kumul? 15:13:26 the hell? my kb is possessed 15:13:58 aaand nothing :) 15:14:26 I'm tinkering with a logo implementation 15:19:19 which one? 15:23:08 my own 15:44:00 --- quit: nighty-_ (Remote host closed the connection) 15:45:22 implemented in forth, naturally 15:45:41 it actually makes implementing tail-call optimization quite a bit easier 15:47:50 --- quit: Onionnion|Eee (Quit: Leaving) 16:08:59 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:15:15 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.171) joined #forth 16:15:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +v epicmonkey 16:20:03 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 16:20:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 16:21:47 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 16:41:56 why logo? 16:42:13 teaching a class to middle schoolers 16:42:18 we started with BASIC 16:42:27 Because it is hard to understand why lexical scoping does matter. 16:42:34 --- join: Onionnion|Eee (~ryan@adsl-68-254-167-6.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) joined #forth 16:42:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion|Eee 16:42:52 Let him burn again and let others burn too. 16:43:11 lexical scope is nice, but for small programs like the kids are writing having syntax intended for humans to read is a higher priority 16:43:29 There're other languages that do it right. 16:43:39 o/ 16:43:48 yo Onionnion|Eee 16:43:48 finally able to play with pygame 16:44:02 Onionnion|Eee: have you looked at love? 16:44:32 I thought love2d was lua-based 16:44:35 RodgerTheGreat: ever heard of Scratch? 16:44:36 kumul, I have 16:44:51 RodgerTheGreat, It is, all the scripting is in Lua 16:45:15 ASau: yes. I'm not a fan of "visual programming" 16:45:29 it's very tedious and slow to build programs 16:45:42 And how is that a reason to make others deal with dynamical scope again? 16:45:42 python is still my first serious language that I've been able to get really into without crashing, like C 16:46:20 since Logo doesn't have a standard, it doesn't actually have to use dynamic scope 16:46:35 Cool. 16:46:45 Logo with lexical scope. 16:46:57 And how is that better than the same Python? 16:47:08 ? 16:47:15 simpler, smaller, easier to install 16:47:38 http://www.codeskulptor.org/ 16:47:42 very hard to install. 16:48:10 there's a Processing web client, too 16:48:26 Not to mention other ways like ActivePython. 16:48:43 and being difficult to install is really the most minor point you could possibly attack 16:49:00 Python is a monstrously complex language compared to BASIC or Logo 16:49:08 Oh, really? 16:49:11 yes 16:49:12 ASau: it is 16:49:24 What is monstrously complex there? 16:49:31 Lack of "goto"? 16:49:40 My logo doesn't have goto 16:50:58 Anyway, you're talking nonsense. 16:51:03 But I don't mind in this case. 16:51:07 python has exceptions, half-assed lambdas, a whitespace-sensitive syntax, a huge variety of libraries with varying conventions 16:51:07 Python is extremely simple, just saying...just the docs are horrible to navigate and find stuff with. 16:51:13 so glad to have your permission 16:51:33 You should really let others burn and start hating Logo and other weird programming languages. 16:51:35 Onionnion|Eee: it is, at best, simple in comparison with other "real" languages 16:51:59 whitespace has never been a problem with me 16:52:09 idk why so many people hate that 16:53:03 I think it looks ugly and I have seen it confuse the bejesus out of students 16:53:09 Onionnion|Eee: one extra whitespace can change semantics significantly which goes against common practice and concept that empty space isn't significant. 16:53:13 that's sufficient reason for me to consider alternatives 16:53:32 Onionnion|Eee: besides that, there's a problem when you start playing with code generation. 16:53:33 Maybe students shouldn't be so slow when it comes to simple things like that 16:53:52 ok I understand the generation thing 16:54:11 Yes, I agree that whitespace-sensitive languages like Python is awful idea. 16:54:54 But it matters less when compared with dynamic scoping like in Logo. 16:55:20 funny, I definitely would've pegged you as an emacs user 16:55:59 It is well-known that dynamic scoping causes greate headache in Emacs 16:56:14 emacs is also something like 2 million lines long 16:56:16 which was created before its evil became noticable. 16:56:36 I would be blown away if my students wrote more than a few pages 16:56:40 It changes slowly. 16:56:59 The problem with students is exactly this: 16:57:01 and I don't expect them to write a ton of higher-order functions 16:57:14 you teach them dynamic scoping, they know it, they don't understand why it's bad, 16:57:34 and when they become more mature, they come and ask why it is bad. 16:58:17 And then we all return to early eigthies to explain that again. 16:58:22 if they can't see the benefits and limitations to both approaches they will be a poor programmer no matter what you feed them 16:58:44 You're ignoring imprinting effects. 16:58:59 They can't see benefits and limitations until they burn, 16:59:18 and the latter can happen long after they have committed to some way. 16:59:40 who the fuck cares. I have 12 year old kids excited about making computers do things, and they're writing programs. 16:59:57 They will care, when they run into problems. 17:00:19 Just like Emacs comminuty cares that it has a large legacy of programs 17:00:31 that depend on dynamic scoping. 17:02:40 "oh my god, my 12 line spirograph program is going to have to be TOTALLY REWRITTEN to comply with coding standards dictated to me by a lisp weenie on IRC! Damn you, RodgerTheGreat and your meddling with impure languages!" 17:05:33 Yeah, you're so smart that you can't even assess how it's going to sound. 17:05:42 In reality it will be 17:06:47 "Damn it, that stupid idiot made me spend my youth programming in some weird useless language that doesn't do things right, scoping for start." 17:08:18 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com) joined #forth 17:08:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +v TodPunk 17:09:12 --- join: pyrofreakpenguin (~jshiebel@24-247-40-77.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com) joined #forth 17:09:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +v pyrofreakpenguin 17:10:02 so your thesis is that programmers learn the first thing they are exposed to and never change, and that (surprise surprise) there is exactly one correct way to do everything, which is obviously how your favorite language works 17:10:54 everything but the opinions blessed by you, ASau, are utter wastes of time to even contemplate 17:10:55 Yes, most programmers don't change since they learn some things in school. 17:11:55 It may happen they run into problems in some industrial project, 17:12:04 and then they get surprised at how things work, 17:12:18 but most of the time, they don't think of consequences. 17:13:52 so teaching them "the right way" rather than different alternatives is a good approach for getting them to consider the consequences of their design decisions? That doesn't follow. 17:15:24 Yes, it is important to teach the right way first. 17:15:31 That is before considering weird alternatives. 17:16:24 Otherwise you'll always get into smart developers that use pre-allocated arrays instead of hash tables/associative arrays or BSTs. 17:22:46 By the way, this is not restricted to programming. 17:23:15 I have friends who curse their analysis teachers for not telling them anything besides steepest descent. 17:23:49 They all have spent time implementing it and finding that it is very unstable optimization method. 17:23:55 your friends ought to internalize the fact that learning involves both the student and the teacher 17:24:06 Sure. 17:24:23 If the teacher could mention better optimization methods, 17:24:29 they could recall it. 17:24:42 Instead they couldn't recall anything since teacher hasn't mentioned anything. 17:25:20 They are not mathematicians either to get deeper in theory, 17:25:28 they're either physisists or chemists. 17:26:15 Programming is the same, most people are not CS researchers to bring examples and proofs up. 17:30:24 --- join: Tukeke (~Tukeke@unaffiliated/tukeke) joined #forth 17:30:25 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Tukeke 17:32:33 Does anyone have opinions on Forth web programming that isn't in Lift (or some other JavaEE implementation)? 17:34:11 Unless you are really adventurous, you shouldn't try web programming. 17:34:16 In Forth. 17:34:32 You have to implement numerous things from scratch. 17:35:17 well, that seems to be all the rage in web frameworks these days anyway 17:35:54 Sure, but other languages have solved problems like parsing. 17:36:08 ... 17:36:13 the forth solution to parsing is "don't, usually" 17:36:31 Yes, but how does that help in web? 17:36:34 wtf would I be parsing, exactly? 17:36:45 HTTP headers, for instance. 17:37:00 I'm not writing a web server 17:37:01 JSON and XML. 17:37:01 http://bernd-paysan.de/httpd-en.html 17:37:13 Have you ever looked at this "web server"? 17:37:15 just make a dsl that interprets http headers 17:37:29 it doesn't do much, but it's simple 17:37:46 It doesn't do anything at all. 17:37:56 So, any opinions from NOT Asau? 17:38:05 At this level anyone could write it in any language. 17:38:23 I did that in sh once. 17:38:46 ASau: good point. A language is only a good choice if it's impossible to do the same task in a different language. 17:38:48 RodgerTheGreat: interesting. It gets messy a bit, but well, HTTP does that 17:38:49 Onionnion|Eee: i dont really care about indenting, but the last time i tried python was in highschool and basically everything seemed like magic! the book i was learning from wasnt helpful at all! it didnt explain what was happening "oh im sorry, jump to page XX to know what is actually happening in very witty example!" so i agree docs do suck (and goto is harmful in self teaching books as well) 17:39:26 RodgerTheGreat: that doesn't make sense, in fact. 17:39:45 E.g. most modern languages are Turing-complete while Forth isn't. 17:39:59 do elaborate 17:40:05 I would think it would be far easier to just use the 20 year old CGI or, GASP, Fast-CGI instead, but good to know I could write everything under the sun in Forth if I was so bold. 17:40:09 Thus you'd better not choose Forth at all, since almost any other language is more capable. 17:40:34 kumul, yeah I'm talking about at docs.python.org 17:40:45 it's horribly painful to find a single function 17:41:09 kumul: you do make a good point about gotos in books 17:41:11 I would be endlessly fascinated to hear how Forth is not a turing-complete 17:41:27 I'd like to try another language soon, though 17:41:36 I think I'll take another shot at Haskell 17:41:42 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:42:00 so many great resources for learning, but I always get lost..going from imperitive to function sucks 17:42:08 Hmmm, a lot of discussion about Forth frameworks seem to point toward Factor 17:42:32 Factor does indeed have a fully functional web framework 17:42:43 RodgerTheGreat: ever thought about such a simple fact that all addresses in Forth have bounds? 17:42:50 pyrofreakpenguin: thank you, it was basically the only point i wanted to make :) 17:42:50 factorcode.org dogfoods it 17:43:10 RodgerTheGreat: this is the proof why Forth isn't Turing complete. 17:43:19 so it seems Forth in CGI/FastCGI or just go to factor. Good times. 17:43:25 ASau: that is meaningless, as there are a multitude of ways to expand the addressable space. Shall I enumerate some? 17:43:51 --- quit: Tukeke (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 17:44:16 RodgerTheGreat: there's no way to expand it since addressable amount of memory is bounded by cell width in bits. 17:44:18 I hear Haskell is extremely smart. Any thoughts? 17:44:51 Onionnion|Eee: I know a haskellite. It's a pretty language for math types. I don't think I can get into it at all. 17:45:02 They also seem to rename things a lot. 17:45:18 And what have they "renamed"?? 17:45:18 yeah 17:45:18 bank switching and other forms of indirection are one option. Another would be to use files. 17:45:26 He has a bot in my channel. He does some cool things with it now and then. 17:45:39 Haskell is great for math I hear 17:45:41 First, Forth has no notion of bank switching. 17:45:41 It's all nonsense to me, but he makes it seem easy once you get the hang of it 17:45:46 Second, bank switching doesn't break the limit. 17:45:46 better than C or the like 17:46:55 Onionnion|Eee: since Grace Hopper computers are all about math. 17:47:01 Even when they serve web pages. 17:47:25 Grace Hopper? is that a language? 17:47:42 oh, derp 17:47:43 right 17:47:44 that woman 17:47:48 COBOL 17:47:54 mmmmm, COBOL 17:48:01 among other things 17:48:13 COBOL, yeah that's for maths 17:48:28 but Haskell is good for things like equations and the like I mean 17:48:48 You forget to add two words: _among_others_. 17:49:06 Yes, Haskell is good for things like equations _among_others_. 17:49:46 good read: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Learn_Haskell_in_10_minutes 17:49:50 Web server is a function that maps strings like "index.html" to larger strings. 17:50:12 I like that Factor is cross-platform. That is a nice bonus. 17:50:43 Maybe I'll look at doing a simple web thingamajig in it. 17:51:16 TodPunk: It really is. I wish it worked on ARM processors though. 17:51:44 luckily I don't need a web server on an arm processor yet. Perhaps if I ever do, it will work at that point. 17:51:46 factor is basically forth with batteries included and a stronger tendency toward functional than imperative style 17:52:26 I like batteries 17:52:52 factor is neither small nor simple, but it does a good job of retaining some of forth's strength while addressing some weaknesses 17:53:18 What is simple then? 17:53:28 forth 17:53:31 Opinions on it's IO? from people that aren't ASau? 17:53:38 Forth is not simple. 17:53:49 TodPunk: IO is fairly simple once you get the hang of it 17:54:08 If you remove all sugar, there're only two constructs in things like Haskell: 17:54:14 lambda abstraction and application. 17:54:20 ASau: as I recall when I pointed out a few specific forth implementations that were small you declared that they were "not proper forths" 17:54:34 Small doesn't mean simple. 17:54:58 whatever helps your worldview, dude 17:55:04 I can devise even smaller language with smaller implementation. 17:55:13 pyrofreakpenguin: have you done much with it? Network or file? 17:55:45 And call it "Forth". 17:56:04 Something like counter machine. 17:56:20 With two counters it will be Turing-complete even. :) 17:56:49 show me a hardware implementation of raw lambda calculus and I might come around to the idea that it could be simple 17:57:08 I want to learn Haskell but I keep getting stuck because it's so confusing >.< 17:57:27 lisp machines bore very little resemblance to lambda calculus but that's about as close as anyone made it 17:57:28 RodgerTheGreat: see lambda-the-ultimate papers. 17:57:38 That has been done already in late seventies. 17:58:29 Onionnion|Eee: learn Scheme then. 18:00:54 Scheme? what style is that 18:02:13 it's a lisp made popular by The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 18:02:39 What do you mean by "style"? 18:06:03 ASau, imperative? functional? strict? lazy? etc 18:06:20 It depends on your personal writing style. 18:06:23 Onionnion|Eee: functional 18:07:01 Have you ever realized that "imperative style" means only that you pass storage and ignore expression value? 18:07:58 have you ever realized that "functional style" means you use value-types and avoid mutation? 18:08:12 * TodPunk head asplode 18:08:43 Yes, I know that. 18:09:19 I always thought of imperitive as the program going line-by-line reading instructions and doing them in that order 18:09:21 Now show me how you do that in Forth where you lack any types beside fixed-bit-width "cell". 18:09:53 Onionnion|Eee: in the end, that's what the computer is going to do regardless of language 18:10:02 Onionnion|Eee: then you should wake up and catch up with eighties and nineties. 18:10:14 same way you do it in lisp- you build up some abstractions that hide the details (a garbage-collected cons store, for example) and then program in terms of those abstractions 18:10:27 pro tip: never listen to anyone who tells you to "wake up" 18:10:38 TodPunk: yeah man, fuck alarm clocks 18:11:01 exception for family members in the early morning if you don't have an alarm clock 18:12:05 Yeah, the effects of lack of mandatory conscription. 18:14:54 Onionnion|Eee: I'd ignore idealism and just decide what you want to do with programming and choose a language that makes sense for accomplishing that. Assuming you haven't already done so, of course. 18:15:57 TodPunk, I'd like to eventually do math. I'd like to double-major in computer science and math 18:16:08 I like simulations, physics, that stuff 18:16:56 Onionnion|Eee: I double-majored in CS and math and it did not disappoint 18:17:13 pyrofreakpenguin, how so? 18:17:33 how did it not disappoint? 18:17:38 I'd go with Haskell for the math stuff, personally. Simulations you're going to work with peers on, so you're probably doing to work in whatever the group is, which could be a lot of things, but Matlab or C/C++/Java/C# are all good possibilities. 18:17:38 yeah 18:17:52 ew C# :P 18:18:03 again, depends on the group you're working with 18:18:46 right 18:18:57 I know all high-level fundamentals 18:19:08 I know a lot of scientific instrument programming jobs in all of those languages. They all have their place. 18:19:12 I'd like to go into assembly sometime just for fun 18:19:15 well, my math focused on analysis which I enjoyed. Typically the math helps differentiate yourself in computer science and the computer science helps differentiate yourself in math 18:19:47 they feed in to each other 18:19:59 Simulations require something from C-C++-Fortran-Matlab/Octave-Python set usually. 18:20:10 Depending on your coworkers. 18:20:18 bioinformatics people love R and Perl 18:20:49 There's a lot of people in the medical field that love Sage for some reason 18:20:50 Quantum chemists love Fortran and C++. 18:21:38 just wondering, where is haskell often used? 18:21:38 Mathematicians like Mathematica and (Algebraists) like Magma 18:21:39 math? 18:21:40 So do other people from soft/condensed matter. 18:22:18 Onionnion|Eee: I usually see Haskell adopted by the crossover CS / discrete Math as they get interested in category theory 18:22:23 Onionnion|Eee: people from mathematics and CS love it. 18:22:29 Onionnion|Eee: a lot of math. Lots. Physics and stuff too, of course. Mostly academic and hobbyist 18:22:41 Sweet 18:22:58 I've tried it like 3 times so far but kept getting stuck and lost. trying again now 18:23:09 Onionnion|Eee: I know at least one company who does hardware simulation with Haskell. 18:23:41 "Simulation" is a bit of stretch, since they stress more on correctness proofs. 18:23:51 Onionnion|Eee: I'd refer you to a guy that does Haskell a lot, but I know him on another network. He speaks well enough of the haskell community, though, so maybe they'll be helpful. 18:24:15 What network? 18:24:38 Onionnion|Eee: if you _really_ want to get into Haskell but keep failing, I do advise that you lower the bar first. 18:24:51 Espernet. Don't go there. How my channel ended up there is a sad story for another time and place, but it's a silly place and you should never go there. 18:24:52 E.g. start with Scheme or SML/O'Caml. 18:24:59 Onionnion|Eee: once you get comfortable you can get in to the theory with "Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists", Pierce 1991 and maybe "Types and Programming Languages", Pierce 2002 18:25:31 TaPL is good reading, yes. 18:25:33 ASau, I'll try Haskell one more time and if I crash again I'll look to those then Haskell later 18:26:18 You may really want to try TaPL. 18:26:48 Though I consider it rather tough, if you don't get grasp of SML. 18:27:32 I would also learn to ignore ASau. I've never found language purists to be very helpful in learning a language or applying it in practical ways. Just to point out how you are obviously wrong =c) 18:27:42 ML really is a fairly garden-variety functional language with pattern matching and a strong type system 18:29:24 being able to pattern match on expressive types allows for some interesting idioms but there isn't anything particularly dark and mysterious in there 18:29:28 Onionnion|Eee: one problem with levelling up is with learning to ignore such "pragmatists" like TodPunk. 18:29:38 haha 18:29:45 They make you believe that all "language purists" do is inventing languages. 18:30:26 Onionnion|Eee: I think this is officially a game of keep-away 18:30:30 Once you get Scheme and SML/O'Caml, take a look at what people do with ACL^2, HOL/Isabelle, Coq. 18:30:35 Yay! My turn? 18:30:44 :P 18:30:49 Onionnion|Eee: trust in the RodgerTheGreat, for he is wise. 18:31:13 He also has some interesting links in languages he seems to not care for, which is a good bonus. 18:31:31 his Haskell link earlier, for instance 18:31:52 Finding elementary information is not hard. :) 18:32:06 wait, when did I link Haskell? 18:32:20 I believe I used "interesting." I'm not aware of the thesaurus equating that with "elementary" 18:32:22 Especially like "teach yourself monads in 1 day". 18:32:50 RodgerTheGreat: doh, I totally attributed Onionnion|Eee's own link to you in my memory. My bad to both of you. Apologies. 18:32:56 phew 18:33:03 There's a number of references that disprove this approach. 18:33:42 I.e., you still need some understanding of category theory to deal with monads. 18:34:07 Well what I know so far is miniscule to what I can tell y'all know 18:34:11 I'm not even in college yet 18:34:31 Onionnion|Eee: just don't let the education system beat your interest out of you 18:34:45 the college I'm going to has a great teacher for it 18:34:50 Hm! 18:34:53 Or let it, and become a writer! Or something! 18:35:09 Onionnion|Eee: they you should really start with Scheme before going to Haskell. 18:35:09 I'd love to go to college in Germany but $ 18:35:25 ASau, I don't think they teach any haskell 18:35:46 no idea, I can check the syllabus 18:35:55 I mean, you should hold for some time wrt Haskell. 18:36:21 TodPunk: there is a difference between someone having interest beat out of them and just losing interest 18:36:49 Onionnion|Eee: history proved Werner von Braun's approach to be superior to O'Shea's. 18:37:03 pyrofreakpenguin: true, but that doesn't let me hide behind my excuses to absolve myself of responsibility! 18:37:12 Onionnion|Eee: he managed not to burn nine people in one go. 18:37:38 Just by building more and more complex rockets gradually. 18:38:31 * TodPunk questions the relevance of the example, but decides it's obscure enough not to matter 18:39:02 I'll look into scheme 18:39:19 I see it's a dialect of Lisp. how is it different from plain, standard lisp? 18:39:38 1. It is Lisp-1. 18:39:45 2. It is simpler. 18:40:12 (No packages, condition subsystem, and so on.) 18:40:18 there is no standard lisp. There is a bunch of languages called "lisps" and if you program in "lisp" you can use pretty much Scheme, Common Lisp, etc. 18:40:20 No CLOS either. 18:40:30 Like programming in Forth can be done in a number of Forths 18:40:38 Onionnion|Eee: that's why you should ignore TodPunk. 18:40:46 There is standard Lisp. 18:40:52 how is scheme lisp-1, precisely? The original lisp had different syntax, structured (and unstructured) programming constructs and dynamic scope 18:40:55 There is standard Scheme too. 18:41:18 lisp-1 was basically fortran with cons-lists 18:41:21 Onionnion|Eee: I can PM you the channel link for the dude with haskell. He's actually explaining monads now. 18:41:30 RodgerTheGreat: Scheme doesn't have separate namespaces, hence it is Lisp-1. 18:41:46 RodgerTheGreat: learn terminology. 18:42:19 nice explanation, pal. That really clears up your unnecessary jargon. 18:42:59 There are also a lot of other smart and helpful people that end up very not "omg you are dumb, do X instead". And me. I'm actually a jerk, but they ignore me for the most part. 18:43:07 If you want to talk about earlier dialects, then there was never such a thing like "Lisp 1". 18:43:24 There was "Lisp 1.5". 18:45:24 I have pm'ed you, as I have to go afk. I apologize if that comes across rude. 18:45:31 bbiab 18:46:22 Onionnion|Eee: if you're really serious about learning Scheme, better just join #scheme and follow on. 18:46:53 It has advantage that you can talk to teachers and professors that do teach Scheme in universities 18:46:56 choose, Onionnion|Eee, but choose wisely! 18:48:19 rather than talking to some weird men who reimplement Logo in Forth 18:48:19 or people who believe that CS researches invent programming languages just for fun (and get paid for it). 18:48:45 ASau: is that how you characterize RodgerTheGreat? 18:49:22 because that basically DOES describe what I get paid to do, as well as my title 18:49:31 how 'bout that 18:49:51 any good tuts for scheme? 18:50:01 google didn't give me much good right away, weird 18:50:10 the structure and interpretation of computer programs is a very good text if you're into math 18:50:16 it can be found free online 18:50:43 there's also a series of video lectures from the 80s that cover much of the material 18:55:52 RodgerTheGreat: why is your turtle a triangle instead of a turtle? 18:56:34 google sicp theres also a texinfo version if you can find it 19:03:16 ASau: out of curiousity, what are these languages that academia makes? 19:04:29 Oz/Mozart is interesting 19:04:31 i suppose haskell, ocaml, java, c++ and lisp? 19:04:32 Read about Epigram, Agda, Shen, and about more industrial ones like Coq, Isabelle, ACL^2. 19:04:54 Oz and Mercury are interesting too. 19:06:38 Pure is somewhat interesting too. 19:07:00 ATS. 19:07:16 Perhaps, ATS should come first in the list. :) 19:08:03 --- part: TodPunk left #forth 19:08:37 Mercury should come the second, to demonstrate that sometimes things are not what you used to think of them. 20:44:57 --- quit: pyrofreakpenguin (Quit: pyrofreakpenguin) 21:35:21 --- quit: Onionnion|Eee (Quit: Leaving) 22:16:18 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at) joined #forth 22:16:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +v fantazo 22:25:25 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:30:20 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:34:52 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 22:34:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty- 22:38:44 --- quit: dzho (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 22:39:46 --- join: dzho (~deejoe@quercus.etrumeus.com) joined #forth 22:39:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +v dzho 23:13:34 --- quit: fantazo (Remote host closed the connection) 23:18:24 --- quit: kumul (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.10.29