00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.10.07
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20:12:45 <black_13> who is up
20:12:53 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, black_13 
20:12:57 <black_13> dude
20:13:15 <RodgerTheGreat> what's happening?
20:13:38 <black_13> can the words in forth be seperated into those that manipulate the stack and those that manipulate the dictionary?
20:14:08 <black_13> i am trying write a manual for a forth 
20:14:11 <RodgerTheGreat> hmm
20:14:25 <RodgerTheGreat> well, how would you categorize , ?
20:15:13 <black_13> . means well show me the top of the stack
20:15:27 <black_13> drop means drop the top of the stack?
20:15:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean, how would you categorize the word ','
20:15:53 <RodgerTheGreat> 'comma'
20:16:03 <black_13> i don't know that one
20:16:19 <RodgerTheGreat> which takes a value from the stack and concatenates onto the most recent dictionary definition
20:16:28 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty important
20:16:58 <black_13> can you use it in statement?
20:17:49 <RodgerTheGreat> create AN_ARRAY 313 , 40 , 789 ,
20:17:59 <black_13> hum
20:18:50 <black_13> this is a very small forth but it has comma
20:19:23 <RodgerTheGreat> usually comma is the primitive used to build more complex dictionary-creating words
20:19:34 <black_13> i figured that
20:19:47 <RodgerTheGreat> : allot  for 0 , next ;
20:21:21 <black_13> i notice that some forths have a very small core written in c
20:21:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I think drawing the distinction between "dictionary words" and "stack words" could be helpful for a manual, but there's definitely significant overlap
20:21:49 <black_13> or assembly then have 
20:22:08 <black_13> the higher parts are meta code
20:22:12 <RodgerTheGreat> yep
20:22:26 <black_13> however comma
20:22:56 <RodgerTheGreat> once you have the basics of a forth system, you only need to drop into machine code or such for performance reasons
20:23:04 <black_13> ok
20:23:22 <black_13> is the following a valid forth statement
20:23:34 <black_13> : hello ."hello" ;
20:23:48 <RodgerTheGreat> you'll probably need a space after ."
20:23:54 <black_13> oh
20:23:57 <black_13> so
20:23:57 <RodgerTheGreat> '."' is a word
20:24:07 <black_13> : hello ." hello" ;
20:24:12 <RodgerTheGreat> bingo
20:24:30 <RodgerTheGreat> ." reads from the input stream until it hits "
20:24:39 <black_13> i see
20:24:45 <black_13> it worked btw
20:24:47 <RodgerTheGreat> and then compiles an inline string and a call to a print routine
20:24:59 <black_13> have you see a word like str++
20:25:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not familiar with 'str++'
20:25:20 <RodgerTheGreat> how is it being used?
20:25:47 <black_13> its open source code but with no examples
20:26:18 <RodgerTheGreat> so all you know is that it has a word called 'str++' in the dictionary
20:26:31 <black_13> have you seen words that use brackets: [char]
20:26:36 <RodgerTheGreat> yes
20:27:03 <RodgerTheGreat> usually it means something to the effect that it has compile-time behavior
20:27:10 <black_13> i have been looking at examples from other forths 
20:27:23 <RodgerTheGreat> are you familiar with how [ and ] are used?
20:27:38 <black_13> no
20:28:02 <black_13> i a writing forth in pforth and then looking that this uforth
20:28:32 <RodgerTheGreat> while compiling a definition, [ will drop back into the interpreter, allowing you to do some calculations or whatever before returning to compilation with ]
20:28:33 <black_13> at uforth then when i hit something that is curios i write the creator of uforth
20:29:42 <black_13> that compilation of words is going to be a hard nut to crack
20:30:40 <black_13> this implementation was designed to live inside of a very small chip
20:31:00 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a forth alright
20:31:39 <black_13> one of the things he said during a conversation is that the program lives in one seccion memory
20:32:11 <black_13> the data stack lives at bottom and the return the top of  the memory data grows up and return grows down
20:32:20 <black_13> have you seen that before
20:35:12 <kumul> darn you RodgerTheGreat stop posting about your forth based game/vm on ycombinator
20:35:21 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
20:35:42 <kumul> and who is putting all these forth news on ycombinator and r/programming, this is crazy
20:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> there have only been two that I was aware of
20:36:02 <RodgerTheGreat> in as many days
20:36:25 <kumul> exactly, for a "dead language" its sure getting lots of talk nowadays
20:36:42 <RodgerTheGreat> lots of people are getting excited about the GA144
20:36:52 <black_13> i think its becaus of the mcu's
20:37:01 <RodgerTheGreat> there was even a freaking hackaday article about the devboard
20:38:33 <RodgerTheGreat> kumul: and to be fair it has been months since I've plugged my projects on HN
20:38:44 <kumul> i havent seen any news about the ga144 anywhere though, whats hackaday?
20:39:43 <kumul> you posted this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4624533  6 hours ago
20:39:51 <black_13> hackaday is what i do these days instead of pr0n
20:40:03 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah I meant it's been months since the last time I plugged my projects
20:40:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://hackaday.com/2012/10/03/breadboarding-with-a-144-core-processor/
20:40:43 <RodgerTheGreat> two or three shameless plugs per year is not all that obnoxious
20:41:01 <black_13> i am interested in forth because it may allow me to created a restartable vm
20:42:05 <black_13> if i could have language that is stored in sram if any fault happens you can restart the VM from a point
20:44:09 <RodgerTheGreat> my favorite comment exchange on the GA144 post was "whats the clock-frequency?" "It doesn’t have one"
20:44:25 <black_13> RodgerTheGreat: what do words ending with @ mean
20:44:30 <kumul> i was reading 1xforth article and he talks about not using do loop (i suppose that means +loop too) only begin until or for next, how is that even possible?
20:44:37 <kumul> black_13: fetch
20:44:53 <RodgerTheGreat> black_13: possibly something to do with fetching data or an address
20:45:20 <black_13> r means return stack then r@ would be fetch wath
20:45:22 <black_13> what
20:45:42 <RodgerTheGreat> kumul: uh, well, my forth just has begin...until and for...next
20:46:05 <RodgerTheGreat> actually in the article chuck goes on to say that the only loop construct he thinks he needs is recursion and if...then
20:46:31 <kumul> ficl lacks for next, so i dont know what it does
20:47:01 <black_13> ficl is wierd
20:47:08 <RodgerTheGreat> essentially "repeat the body n+1 times"
20:47:16 <black_13> and enormously large code
20:47:34 <kumul> its the fastest forth i've seen, so thats what ill use
20:47:41 <RodgerTheGreat> so "4 for i . next" would print 4 3 2 1 0
20:47:56 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not as flexible as a do loop but it's very simple
20:48:05 <RodgerTheGreat> and you can implement it nicely in hardware
20:48:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the F18 has a NEXT opcode which is basically for this
20:48:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and my VM has something similar
20:49:25 <kumul> that does seem better/less complicated
20:50:53 <RodgerTheGreat> you can only use it to count down if you need the loop index, but you'd be surprised how often it doesn't matter. In the rare occasions you need to count up you can either subtract the loop index from the max or use a different kind of loop
20:51:17 <black_13> no for in uforth
20:51:25 <RodgerTheGreat> gforth has it
20:54:32 <black_13> gforth uses an older c compiler
20:54:56 <black_13> ubuntu doesn't have it
20:55:05 <RodgerTheGreat> ok?
20:55:18 <black_13> just chattering
20:55:32 <kumul> dont use ubuntu :)
20:56:05 <black_13> same with debian or suse 
20:56:26 <black_13> i think what goes to that forth might gain some popularity
20:56:33 <RodgerTheGreat> the version on macports compiles just fine
20:56:51 <black_13> good to know is there a windows version
20:57:01 <black_13> i have been able to comple pforth on windows great
21:06:07 <black_13> so what does fetch fetch
21:06:43 <RodgerTheGreat> you give it an address, it gives you the value at that address
21:07:00 <RodgerTheGreat> or, if you like, it dereferences pointers
21:09:33 <RodgerTheGreat> 'night, all
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21:19:22 <black_13> anyone anyone
21:20:15 <kumul> black_13: rodger answered you
21:20:40 <kumul> no?
21:21:20 <black_13> i was having some fun
21:23:25 <black_13> ferris beuer
21:23:48 <black_13> how are address formed
21:23:57 <kumul> i wonder what would be the easiest way to change a couple of words, so they look like my native language, so that its easier to explain to some people
21:24:25 <black_13> am i some people
21:24:48 <kumul> nop
21:25:18 <kumul> you are already interested in forth and dont say EEK when they look at the syntax not having lots of (){}*&
21:25:32 <black_13> 1 @ gives me 24000
21:25:40 <kumul> yikes
21:25:52 <kumul> black_13: have you read starting forth?
21:26:18 <black_13> i just like to start flipping on swtitches and see what happens
21:26:33 <black_13> i have been reading that and the turtoria for pforth
21:26:50 <kumul> look at the interpreter, (gforth always has a the stack on output)
21:27:04 <kumul> create varx 5 ,
21:27:17 <kumul> when you use varx it will put the address on the stack
21:27:32 <kumul> using @ will fetch what is inside the address
21:27:59 <kumul> so create varx 5 , varx @ . (display 5)
21:28:38 <kumul> black_13: your english seems terse, whats your native language?
21:29:51 <black_13> born an raised
21:30:21 <black_13> dyslexia actually was called something else as i remember
21:30:52 <kumul> ahh ok then
21:31:03 <black_13> disgraphia
21:31:54 <black_13> i often chat with friend she gives me a hard time
21:32:14 <black_13> and says how do you make a living you can't spell andyou are a software developer
21:32:43 <black_13> and she can't steal a job and yet she is a great writer
21:45:37 <black_13> allot ?
21:45:46 <black_13> is the an allocation?
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21:54:25 <kumul> black_13: yes
21:54:50 <black_13> funny its not in pforth
21:55:02 <black_13> or not mentioned in the tutoria
21:55:05 <kumul> black_13: it makes x bytes of memory available
21:55:08 <kumul> black_13: it is
21:55:11 <kumul> let me install it
21:55:26 <black_13> oops
21:55:34 <black_13> please i want to be wrong
21:57:54 <kumul> black_13: it exists, just checked
21:57:58 <kumul> using ver 27
21:58:11 <black_13> can you hum a few bars
21:58:26 <kumul> wha?
21:58:38 <black_13> can you give me an example
21:58:49 <kumul> create foo 256 allot
21:59:23 <kumul> allot looks at foo and establishes 256 bytes of memory to it (i hope thats the correct term)
21:59:48 <black_13> hey it works in uforth
22:00:55 <black_13> where does the memory live i wonder
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