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07:27:05 <Indecipherable> Heya
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07:33:58 <Indecipherable> Does sp-forth have a return stack?
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09:58:12 <Garmine> hi!
10:00:45 <RodgerTheGreat> hello, Garmine 
10:01:25 <Garmine> just started FORTH :D
10:01:34 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
10:01:44 <RodgerTheGreat> having fun so far?
10:01:47 <Garmine> well
10:01:56 <Garmine> it's actually quite strange for the first time
10:02:03 <Garmine> like reading things from right to left
10:02:14 <Garmine> at least it looks like that
10:02:17 <RodgerTheGreat> it takes a while to get used to it
10:02:21 <Garmine> yep
10:02:41 <Garmine> and I just realised that even though I have loads of experience in Java it worths nothing in FORTH :)
10:03:02 <RodgerTheGreat> when you're starting out, don't be afraid to spill to variables
10:03:03 <Garmine> I mean almost nothing
10:03:35 <RodgerTheGreat> true
10:03:47 <RodgerTheGreat> although I have found that practicing Forth has made my C better
10:03:56 <Garmine> :D
10:04:05 <Garmine> I've always wanted to learn something low-level
10:04:33 <Garmine> and then I found Eloraam's CPU (yes, the minecraft one) and I thought it's time to start :)
10:04:49 <RodgerTheGreat> forth scratches the same itch as assembly language, except it's much easier to write complex applications
10:05:46 <Garmine> it's similar as far as I can tell but asm was too much for me (at least for now :))
10:06:06 <Garmine> but I'm amased at how things are getting clearer as you notice that the IF uses the stack
10:06:27 <Garmine> amazed*
10:06:31 <RodgerTheGreat> the primitives available in a small forth distribution are close to assembly instructions, but forth provides much more powerful means of abstraction and composition than assembly language
10:07:40 <Garmine> hm
10:07:52 <Garmine> I'm thinking on learning Forth and then trying asm again :)
10:08:36 <RodgerTheGreat> you may find that forth is a good way to experiment with asm. Many forths come with a built-in assembler and make it easy to mix assembly definitions with high-level forth
10:09:39 <Garmine> that sounds great
10:11:28 <Garmine> gonna get forth for the real computer too!
10:12:01 <RodgerTheGreat> pforth and GForth are commonly suggested here
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10:13:25 <Garmine> thanks
10:13:36 <RodgerTheGreat> also if you just feel like playing around, http://repl.it/ has a forth interpreter
10:14:07 <Garmine> oh, wow
10:14:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I use it sometimes when I'm on an office machine
10:14:27 <Garmine> ruby, python, lua 
10:14:31 <RodgerTheGreat> works great for little experiments
10:17:57 <Garmine> great
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10:18:20 <Garmine> thank you very much! :)
10:18:37 <RodgerTheGreat> no prob
10:19:07 <RodgerTheGreat> be sure to come back and show off whatever neat stuff you write
10:19:16 <Garmine> okay!
10:20:12 <Garmine> is it possible to use sockets (or something similar) via forth/asm?
10:20:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm sure it's possible, although I haven't done it myself
10:20:47 <Garmine> I have a very self-destructive iea
10:20:50 <Garmine> idea*
10:21:11 <Garmine> my favourite game got cancelled but the dev's gonna release the source
10:21:39 <Garmine> and there's a very CPU-consuming part of the code which I'd like to rewrite in asm but the game is in php (since it's an MMO)
10:22:07 <RodgerTheGreat> hoo boy
10:22:13 <Garmine> long term plan
10:22:16 <Garmine> very long
10:22:30 <Garmine> I'll learn to program first :)
10:22:34 <RodgerTheGreat> gonna say, that sounds rather ambitious for a first program
10:22:50 <Garmine> not first, just an idea
10:23:02 <Garmine> firstly I'll try to use a variable
10:23:11 <Garmine> then use more variables... :)
10:23:42 <Garmine> it may be a bad habit but I like to set up a long term goal while learning a language
10:24:18 <RodgerTheGreat> that can be a good thing as long as it doesn't make you become discouraged
10:25:08 <Garmine> well, sometimes I don't even finish that goal since I can do something else with the newly learned stuff
10:25:51 <Garmine> but usually I learn more then needed to do only that thing, and I enjoy it
10:26:24 <Garmine> and it's also useful!
10:26:53 <Garmine> but to be honest rarely I start to hate a language, for example JavaScript
10:27:00 <Garmine> all that compatibility horror
10:28:49 <RodgerTheGreat> the flexibility that forth offers makes it possible to write some astoundingly terrifying code
10:29:26 <RodgerTheGreat> but that's the price you pay for powerful tools
10:29:53 <Garmine> I have a habit of placing loads of comments
10:30:00 <Garmine> btw, how can yopu place comments in Forth ?
10:30:04 <Garmine> you*
10:30:25 <RodgerTheGreat> usually \ is a line comment and ( ) are block comments
10:30:30 <RodgerTheGreat> note that () do not nest
10:30:52 <Garmine> thanks
10:31:18 <RodgerTheGreat> it's best to think of the word "\" as "skip to the end of this line" and "(" as "skip to the next )"
10:31:31 <RodgerTheGreat> so naturally you must have at least one space after \ or (
10:31:55 <RodgerTheGreat> a few forths alternatively use # for line comments but I'm pretty sure \ is the standard
10:33:01 <Garmine> I'm a little bit scared of that 's' on the end of forth
10:33:16 <Garmine> but as I see it's somewhat usual to have more "variants"
10:33:30 <RodgerTheGreat> using lots of stack diagrams in your code is very helpful when you're starting out, but in time you will learn to make smaller word definitions that don't need much commenting
10:33:45 <RodgerTheGreat> yes, forth as a language is very balkanized
10:34:20 <Garmine> I can already make own words :)
10:35:21 <Garmine> but now I see why one of my friends knows loads of languages
10:35:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I like the fact that forth tutorials generally *start* with defining words and breaking tasks down into smaller tasks. Most other languages start with loops and variables.
10:35:31 <Garmine> I love as the forth is so different 
10:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> if you master forth you may also find PostScript, Joy or Factor fun to play with
10:36:18 <RodgerTheGreat> Factor is a much more complex language than the average Forth, but has broad library support
10:38:04 <Garmine> I prefer to write most things myself so I rarely use them
10:38:39 <Garmine> and many people say that I'm mad then I just reply "I enjoy programming, that's the point ;)"
10:39:02 <RodgerTheGreat> you're either crazy or a natural forth programmer
10:39:06 <RodgerTheGreat> possibly both
10:39:55 <Garmine> the first is scientifically proved </joke>
10:40:31 <Garmine> but I like forth so far so maybe the 2nd part is correct as well :)
10:43:11 <Garmine> wow there isn't a separate "NOT" 
10:43:36 <RodgerTheGreat> generally they distinguish between negation and inverting bits
10:44:51 <Garmine> hm
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10:44:59 <Garmine> 0= solves the issue :D
10:45:03 <RodgerTheGreat> in forth there is "negate" for numbers and "invert" for bits, respectively
10:45:11 <RodgerTheGreat> that too
10:46:05 <RodgerTheGreat> in the forth I use a lot there is both an if...then construct and a -if...then construct which is the complement of the first
10:49:05 <Garmine> as I see there isn't a -IF in Eloraam's Forth :S
10:49:24 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah it isn't very common
10:49:29 <Garmine> oh I see
10:49:43 <RodgerTheGreat> colorforth has -if...then but that tests the sign bit
10:50:18 <RodgerTheGreat> of course if you want either of those versions of -if you could fairly easily add it. :)
10:51:25 <Garmine> ooooooh
10:51:30 <Garmine> I love this thing !
10:51:57 <RodgerTheGreat> the possibilities are endless when you can extend the language however you like
10:53:00 <Garmine> so
10:53:15 <Garmine> you aren't only programming a program but you're writing your own language meanwhile
10:53:20 <Garmine> wow
10:53:59 <RodgerTheGreat> in fact this touches on the central principle of programming in forth:
10:54:37 <RodgerTheGreat> don't write applications in forth. That's crazy. Instead, extend Forth until expressing your application is trivial.
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10:55:21 <Garmine> I'll never use Java again :D
10:55:34 <Garmine> okay, that's crazy, but I gonna use forth a lot :)
11:01:24 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
11:03:26 <Garmine> bai!
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12:07:07 <Garmine> oh my god
12:07:22 <Garmine> in real you don't give parameters to a word
12:07:36 <Garmine> you just push some tstuff to the stack and the word uses it
12:07:42 <Garmine> am I right? 
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13:25:59 <Indecipherable> Heya
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