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11:03:13 <phao> Hi
11:03:17 <phao> anyone on gforth herE?
11:04:25 <ASau> It depends.
11:04:35 <ASau> Better ask the actual question.
11:04:45 <phao> yeah, sorry
11:04:59 <phao> I downloaded gforth from here http://bernd-paysan.de/gforth.html
11:05:01 <ASau> (Besides, it is rather strange to see lispnik on forth channel.)
11:05:03 <phao> a windows version
11:05:14 <phao> but when I try to run gforth, I get this
11:05:19 <phao> gforth: cannot open image file gforth.fi in path .:/usr/local/lib/gforth/site-forth:/usr/local/share/gforth/site-forth:/usr/local/lib/gforth/0.7.0-20090215:/usr/local/share/gforth/0.7.0-20090215 for reading
11:05:36 <phao> I am not sure why it's trying to find something on a unix-ish path on my windows system
11:05:47 <ASau> I think you need to run it from Cygwin.
11:05:56 <phao> ok
11:05:58 <ASau> Because it is unix-based first of all.
11:05:59 <phao> thx ASau 
11:06:26 <phao> sadly, I will have to download cygwin
11:06:41 <ASau> It's good to have anyway.
11:06:46 <phao> My internet connection is too slow
11:06:57 <phao> that's all the problem, honestly. I will try to stick with Win32Forth
11:06:58 <ASau> Well...
11:07:08 <phao> I don't understand forth at all
11:07:11 <ASau> That's the least problem actually.
11:07:17 <phao> but for example, I got this...
11:07:22 <phao> (on my win32forth)
11:07:27 <phao> if I type "if" and enter
11:07:36 <phao> I get Error: if compilation only
11:07:43 <ASau> Sure.
11:07:47 <phao> that looks strange, somehow
11:07:58 <phao> ASau, is it normal?
11:08:00 <ASau> Yes.
11:08:06 <phao> that's good !
11:08:15 <phao> well, I will stick to it then
11:08:29 <ASau> Wait a minute, I'll try to find something analogous from Lisp.
11:08:37 <phao> ok
11:10:29 <ASau> The closest thing off top of my head is the absence of top-level semantics of some constructs.
11:10:40 <ASau> Or REPL semantics.
11:10:55 <phao> hmm
11:10:59 <ASau> Something like declaim, I think.
11:11:02 <phao> I understand
11:11:16 <phao> so it's as if I was in the top level there
11:11:23 <phao> and if is not available in that "context"
11:11:29 <ASau> Exactly.
11:11:53 <phao> could you give me a code (small thing) that could paste it in there, showing a context in which if would be available?
11:13:01 <ASau> : test-1 ( compilation context here ) 2 2 = if ." got here" cr else ." not here" then cr ;
11:14:03 <ASau> ( interpretation context here ) :noname [ ( interpretation context here ) 2 ] literal 3 = if ." not here" then ; execute
11:14:41 <ASau> Basically, the following words don't have interpretation semantics:
11:14:56 <phao> cool! =)
11:14:57 <ASau> if else then begin again while repeat until ;
11:15:04 <ASau> case of endof endcase
11:15:20 <phao> I just started reading starting forth
11:15:33 <phao> I hope it explains all this stuff
11:15:36 <ASau> Better find some modern book.
11:15:46 <ASau> SF is about obsolete dialect.
11:16:02 <ASau> Just like Maclisp or Interlisp vs. Common Lisp.
11:16:48 <phao> damn
11:16:51 <phao> which is a good book?
11:17:00 <ASau> Honestly, I don't know the current state.
11:17:07 <phao> heh
11:17:16 <phao> thinking forth?
11:17:17 <ASau> As you can easily find here, Forth is way more dead than CL.
11:17:28 <ASau> TF is about the same age.
11:17:43 <phao> well, but this old age
11:17:55 <phao> does it really "disturbs"?
11:17:56 <ASau> These are about early eighties.
11:18:02 <ASau> Well...
11:18:19 <ASau> ANS-94 dialect differs significantly.
11:18:20 <phao> I mean, SICP is from 85 afaik
11:18:26 <phao> it's still very good
11:18:43 <ASau> In particular, it introduced this separation between compilation and interpretation semantics.
11:18:50 <ASau> It didn't exist before.
11:19:15 <ASau> When using some implementations, you may not understand error messages.
11:19:55 <phao> ASau, lemme ask you something
11:19:59 <ASau> Scheme and CL world is fundamentally different.
11:20:05 <phao> ahhh
11:20:07 <phao> ok.
11:20:23 <phao> I came to forth stuff because the books are kind of famous. People recommended me Thinking Forth and POL
11:20:31 <ASau> Well...
11:20:44 <ASau> I'd suggest not to waste your time.
11:20:47 <phao> haha
11:20:49 <phao> why is that?
11:21:17 <ASau> TF and POL are basically about do-it-all-yourself approach.
11:21:40 <phao> I noticed that in POL
11:21:44 <ASau> They bear the smell of those times when you didn't have good compilers.
11:22:01 <ASau> And when you didn't have machines powerful enough.
11:22:37 <ASau> Thus they imply that by doing significant part of work by hand
11:22:40 <phao> but what about the programming technques and concepts in those books?
11:22:51 <ASau> you can achieve better results than letting your compiler do it.
11:23:03 <ASau> Well...
11:23:06 <phao> I read like 20 pages of pol, I got the same impression
11:23:39 <ASau> You can convert your "loop for e in l..." into more efficient loops with "do" or "do*".
11:23:57 <ASau> Or you can leave it as is and let SSC resolve these issues.
11:24:17 <ASau> Or you can leave all such optimizations to some later stage of your project.
11:25:06 <phao> I don't understand...
11:25:32 <phao> how does this relate to the programming techniques and concepts from these books/?
11:25:43 <ASau> The main idea in TF and POL is approximatly this:
11:25:58 <ASau> the code you write is meant to be run on some particular system,
11:26:16 <ASau> thus you must think the way that system operates
11:26:30 <ASau> or else your program will not run efficiently or not run at all.
11:27:00 <ASau> This is the opposite what you do in modern times,
11:27:11 <phao> yeah, I agree
11:27:14 <phao> and even back then
11:27:15 <ASau> when you write code so that it is to be read by humans rather than machines.
11:27:19 <phao> afaik
11:27:36 <phao> unix and C spread the idea of being portable, which goes against this
11:27:42 <phao> and these ideas were getting famous..
11:29:52 <ASau> The huge drop in Forth usage in late eighties and early nineties proved that something is wrong.
11:30:00 <ASau> Either in Forth itself or around it.
11:30:53 <ASau> The common old-timer's attribution of that to dialect shift seems wrong,
11:31:14 <ASau> since dialect shifts in C and C++ did no comparable harm.
11:31:43 <ASau> Or in Lisp and Scheme.
11:32:01 <phao> sometimes language changes  is for the better also
11:32:28 <phao> but that sounds unrelated =D
11:33:10 <ASau> The dialect of 1994 has less hardware dependencies like bit width.
11:33:29 <phao> I have no clue what that is
11:33:38 <phao> when I came to here, I thought forth was higher level
11:33:59 <ASau> Previous dialects assume that it is implemented on 16-bit 2-complement machine.
11:34:06 <ASau> No.
11:34:16 <ASau> Forth is as high-level as C.
11:35:18 <phao> hmm
11:35:21 <phao> ASau, thx for helping
11:35:47 <ASau> If you want to check it, type something like "0 0 !" in your REPL.
11:35:52 <phao> ok
11:36:04 <phao> got ok
11:36:10 <ASau> Hm.
11:36:11 <phao> what does that mean?
11:36:20 <ASau> Then try something like "0 -1 !".
11:36:28 <ASau> It means "store 0 at address -1".
11:36:28 <phao> exception
11:36:39 <phao> access_violation
11:37:16 <phao> I got a dump of register status I think
11:37:19 <ASau> Note that even in C you have to cast it to address type first. :)
11:37:27 <phao> yes
11:53:34 <ASau> By the way, you should have said that you prefer Scheme.
11:53:44 <ASau> I'd find better examples from there. :)
11:54:34 <phao> hehe
11:54:46 <phao> I like scheme a lot
11:54:53 <phao> I just wrote a DFA to C compiler in schem
11:54:55 <phao> scheme*
11:55:05 <phao> it's really cool, but idk... I liked it more.
11:55:09 <ASau> call/cc has bad semantics in top level,
11:55:19 <ASau> thus it is sensible to forbid it there.
11:55:20 <phao> bad is a compliment
12:02:18 <phao> today, I am not sure which is the language I like.
12:02:24 <phao> scheme is good
12:02:32 <phao> but feels clumsy
12:02:53 <phao> mainly when my code is not purely function, which is frequent
12:03:02 <phao> even though it's "mostly" function
12:03:04 <phao> functional*
12:11:37 <ASau> Personally, I don't like Scheme due to the way it enforces writing loops.
12:11:53 <ASau> I agree that "map" and "fold" are cool,
12:12:12 <ASau> but in many cases the most natural way of iteration is simple loop.
12:12:17 <phao> I agree with you
12:12:23 <phao> the most clumsy parts are the loopy ones
12:12:30 <phao> which is, sort of everywhere
12:12:46 <phao> it's not that you can't do a for-loop
12:12:53 <phao> but it's weird
12:13:03 <ASau> Or better, CL:LOOP.
12:13:48 <phao> I never used CL... I head this loop thing is cool
12:20:11 <ASau> Last time I used Scheme in production instead of CL.
12:20:30 <ASau> And my impression wasn't good enough, honestly.
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12:23:00 <phao> ASau, which languages you like?
12:24:19 <ASau> Russian. :)
12:24:30 <phao> programming languages =)
12:26:11 <ASau> CL, mostly.
12:26:37 <ASau> Perhaps, I'll try those quirky Racket modes with types and stuff.
12:34:45 <phao> ASau, I am wondering here
12:35:01 <phao> I wanna learn a language that is more easily useful for doing useful stuff
12:35:13 <phao> and "useful" stuff is sort of I/O stuff
12:35:24 <phao> like GUI, 2d graphics, 3d graphics, dealing with files
12:35:31 <phao> being able to tell what went wrong, when something goes wrong
12:36:11 <phao> I've been programming for a while, but mostly on things that are silly, or do not require a "useful system"
12:36:28 <phao> I was wondering about java
12:36:34 <phao> what do you think is a good choice?
12:41:36 <ASau> If you want a language for profession, java is very good choice.
12:42:16 <phao> profession is one of the goals, yes
12:42:20 <ASau> Otherwise, well...
12:42:25 <phao> I'd not mind if it was fun too
12:42:31 <ASau> Java is really really heavy-weight.
12:42:40 <phao> heavy weight?
12:42:47 <ASau> Sure.
12:42:55 <phao> what do you mean?
12:43:53 <ASau> It is rather rigid in order to enforce industrial-grade code style.
12:44:42 <ASau> If you come from Scheme, it will require some effort to get used to its ways.
12:45:02 <phao> hmm
12:45:03 <ASau> Understanding "design patterns" is a must here.
12:46:27 <ASau> You should find the famous Norvig's presentation on triviality of a good deal of "design patterns" in functional languages.
12:46:35 <ASau> You'll learn a lot from it.
12:47:11 <phao> where is that?
12:47:15 <ASau> If you understand how closures and objects are equivalent,
12:47:20 <ASau> it will give some insight too.
12:47:55 <ASau> Search for "Norvig design patterns".
12:49:02 <ASau> Both two give you some insight about what you have to change in your mind to be successful with Java.
12:49:55 <phao> it takes so much to learn a language
12:49:58 <fantazo> ok again the same ASau pattern. dimishing the people who might interest about forth as a language.
12:50:04 <phao> it's troubling to "choose on"
12:50:22 <phao> I wanna learn java, but I wanna learn python and ruby too.
12:50:24 <phao> also C#.
12:50:38 <phao> I guess what troubles me most is that I have no reason to want that =D
12:50:52 <fantazo> ASau is our small hero of depression in this channel. singing the old song of how much forth sucks. I think I should write a song about such assholes.
12:51:05 <phao> fantazo, don't worry
12:51:06 <ASau> C# pays off well too.
12:51:12 <phao> we do the same in ##c all the time
12:51:50 <fantazo> phao, a reason not to join ##c
12:51:58 <phao> =)
12:52:02 <fantazo> even given that I like C
12:52:04 <ASau> phao: this channel is mostly populated by geeks that don't have CS education to understand how Forth really sucks.
12:52:18 <fantazo> did that too for a living for a time, now ruby.
12:52:19 <ASau> phao: you can safely ignore their rants.
12:53:03 <fantazo> I would really love to kickban you.
12:53:21 <phao> fantazo, you're right; don't go to C
12:53:33 <phao> if ASau bothers you, you won't be able to live there
12:55:01 <fantazo> phao, I know, that's the reason why I'm not at such places.
12:55:19 <phao> it's funny there, though
12:55:23 <phao> if you can take things not personally
12:55:27 <phao> and have a sense of humor
12:55:37 <phao> I gathered some passings from there
12:55:41 <phao> check out: (wait)
12:55:46 <ASau> There's one fundamental difference between there and here.
12:55:55 <ASau> There most people do understand that C sucks,
12:55:56 <fantazo> I have a sense of humor, but such things aren't what I think is funny.
12:56:10 <ASau> and accept it for pragmatic reasons.
12:56:28 <ASau> Here most people think that Forth really rocks
12:56:35 <ASau> and they do not accept any critical thinking.
12:56:44 <fantazo> every language sucks. every designer of a language thinks, that he did it wonderful but actually he doesn't. 
12:56:46 <phao> http://personalphao.wordpress.com/from-irc/
12:57:39 <fantazo> I'm so sick of people who brag with no references of backing up their claims that a specific language feature makes things more productive.
12:57:46 <fantazo> or whatever.
12:58:52 <fantazo> forth is atleast, even when it is like C too low level coherent in its design. fucking simple. and it is easily to bootstrap, compared to other languages.
13:01:35 <phao> fantazo, take a look at the passings form ##c that I've gathered =D
13:01:39 <phao> they're tons of fun
13:03:36 <fantazo> ok, not my type of humor.
13:03:49 <phao> =(
13:06:23 <fantazo> I see recorded assholes. Not anything funny.
13:07:00 <phao> I laughed so much at these things
13:11:40 <fantazo> I like more things about work as a programmer. Or from a computer science perspective, which I studied for a time, before I changed my study. as I disliked the people and a couple of other things there.
13:12:35 <phao> different places have different people
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13:12:43 <phao> #scheme people are quite friendly
13:12:49 <phao> same for #sml people
13:13:02 <phao> and most people in there have a CS degree
13:13:06 <phao> I guess
13:13:16 <fantazo> in my opinion are most of those people idiots, who eat their own shit and then brawg about what good design makes out from their own perspective.
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13:13:40 <fantazo> its all about opinions, no science actually just stupid opinions.
13:14:15 <fantazo> layered with 1000 inches of self loving machoism.
13:14:49 <fantazo> so and this is the end of my brawling now. I could continue with this for hours.
13:15:15 <fantazo> I just don't want such assholes in this channel.
13:15:44 <phao> Well, noone wants who we consider assholes around
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13:23:38 <ASau> That's another lie that's common here.
13:24:12 <ASau> You always tend to tell that something is unscientific and the rest,
13:24:33 <ASau> when you cannot sustain any critical opinion about it.
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16:00:06 <DocPlatypus> is there anyone in this channel, besides ASau himself, that actually wants ASau here?
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