00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.08.09
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00:04:00 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: an advanced version?
00:07:42 <ttmrichter> STM8L-Discovery eval board.
00:09:09 <ttmrichter> This thing sucks up about 1.3mA in run mode.
00:10:34 <ttmrichter> About 7µA in low-power mode (3µA if the LCD is off) and 0.4µA in halt mode.
00:10:36 <ttmrichter> Wow.
00:13:35 <jyfl987> i was thinking if i could found a usb disk that could let user burning its firmware
00:14:04 <ttmrichter> I've got USB access and apparently the programming is done through that.
00:14:11 <ttmrichter> But as is usual the tools are all Windows-based.
00:14:28 <ttmrichter> I'm hoping that the document download run I did includes specs on hardware and protocol for that.
00:14:47 <ttmrichter> I really want to play with this new toy.
00:14:54 <jyfl987> yep, embed domain, alghout their product is *nix system, their dev envron is almost win32
00:15:05 <ttmrichter> Full memory specs: 32KB Flash, 2KB RAM, 1KB EEPROM.
00:15:29 <ttmrichter> The EEPROM is data (Harvard architecture) and the Flash seems to be either.
00:15:34 <ttmrichter> The RAM too.
00:15:41 <ttmrichter> If I'm reading this right.
00:15:53 <jyfl987> 32k flash and 2k ram could supporting a INTERPRETER
00:18:02 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: is that harvard architecture couldnt support DTC?
00:18:52 <ttmrichter> I think that DTC would be a bit hard with Harvard, yes, unless you came up with some kind of oddball split dictionary or the like.
00:22:03 <jyfl987> cl
00:22:30 <ttmrichter> cl?
00:22:41 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: sorry , it should be /cl
00:23:28 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: is that possible to build a forth system on fpga
00:23:28 <ttmrichter> Ah.  :)
00:23:44 <ttmrichter> I think it should be possible to make a Forth processor on an FPGA, yes.
00:23:48 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: and by compiling it burn to fpga
00:23:59 <ttmrichter> And if I could get my hands on a decent FPGA devkit, I'd make one.  :)
00:24:11 <jyfl987> i mean burning on fpga board dynamic 
00:24:32 <jyfl987> while running
00:24:46 <ttmrichter> I don't think you could make an FPGA setup that burned itself, no.
00:25:05 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: so its not possible in tech
00:25:22 <ttmrichter> But I think you could easily use an FPGA as a "Forth Coprocessor" where you burn and execute as your program changes.
00:25:32 <jyfl987> like harvad architeckture
00:25:49 <ttmrichter> Well the problem is that for an FPGA to burn it has to be cleared.
00:26:07 <ttmrichter> The first step, IIRC, with an FPGA burning is to clear (or is it set?) all the links.
00:26:24 <ttmrichter> Then you selectively link (or is it unlink?) the ones that correspond to what you're trying to make.
00:26:31 <ttmrichter> Hard to run anything while everything's cleared.
00:26:37 <jyfl987> i thought it just adjust some target gate
00:27:06 <ttmrichter> No, I think it's more like burning Flash.
00:27:16 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: so the burning only has two action, link/unlink, right?
00:27:27 <ttmrichter> Well the gates are linked/unlinked.
00:27:32 <jyfl987> if it could support skip, that would be possible
00:27:33 <ttmrichter> (It's been a while since I read the book.)
00:28:30 <jyfl987> so the burning file could be  101010100010101001 which 1 and 0 all map to an action
00:31:30 <impomatic> Has anyone got any of the following books for sale? "Inside F83", "Forth Floating Point", "Forth: Implementation and Application", "Book of FORTH assemblers"
00:31:59 <ttmrichter> Nope.  :(
00:32:23 <jyfl987> impomatic: i havnt saw people bought forth book
00:32:31 <jyfl987> maybe i am too young :]
00:32:39 <impomatic> :-)
00:33:00 <impomatic> Inside F83 is available on amazon.com marketplace, but the seller is unresponsive :-(
00:34:24 <ttmrichter> Is there e-copy of these available anywhere?
00:35:02 <jyfl987> nope even in china, i didnt see inside f83
00:35:22 <jyfl987> maybe you could check in p2p network
00:36:24 <ttmrichter> Inside China it's hard to find anything that's not PHP, Java, C++, etc.
00:36:35 * ttmrichter isn't impressed with software schools here.
00:36:55 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: try ishare.iask.sina.com.cn
00:37:10 <ttmrichter> My Chinese isn't up to snuff to read a site like that.  :)
00:37:22 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: you could refer it as a pirate of amazon  lol
00:37:57 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: i could got "zen of forth" win32 forth at that site
00:38:40 <ttmrichter> How much do they charge?
00:38:55 <jyfl987> its free
00:39:17 <jyfl987> you might know the meaning of pirate
00:39:31 <ttmrichter> I know loads of pirates who sell their goods.
00:39:54 <ttmrichter> Like everybody up the road at 电脑城 selling CDs, DVDs, etc.  :D
00:40:13 <jyfl987> well , they cant, if they did that, they could got punish 
00:40:38 <ttmrichter> So you're telling me the people selling DVDs from bags are selling authentic DVDs?
00:40:44 * ttmrichter is sceptical.
00:41:08 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: yes, personal shop could do that, my room mate just told me that he bought a 1T music from a seller with the price at 100 RMB per TB
00:41:49 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: nope, punish is from goverment
00:41:57 <ttmrichter> I don't think it's authentic.  I'm pretty positive it's all pirated goods.
00:42:09 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: the goverment pay more attention to website rather than DVD shop
00:42:14 <ttmrichter> Well, true.
00:42:27 <ttmrichter> That just means someone has to pay a bit more to bribe an official.
00:43:55 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: yep, the personal transation are hard to catch, and it has some political problem, so the goverment just keep eye close on DVD/CD
00:44:21 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: but when we go to KTV, nowadays, the music are all got pay
00:44:43 <ttmrichter> What about the prostitutes?  :D
00:45:19 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: its like DVD
00:46:23 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: many lowlevel police station treate that as a cash source, like in 东莞, you know the sex capital
00:51:19 <ttmrichter> Dong-what?
00:51:25 <ttmrichter> I don't recognize the second character.
00:51:52 <ttmrichter> But the prostitutes thing was just a reference to how all the KTV places in walking distance from my home are thinly-disguised brothels.  :D
00:56:15 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: its Dong(1) Guan(3)
00:57:24 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: prostitutes is just like pirate DVD in china, its illegal in law, but the goverment dont really care about it
00:58:42 <ttmrichter> Which city are you in, BTW?
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01:03:21 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: Beijing
01:04:24 <ttmrichter> Ah.
01:04:30 <ttmrichter> How's the swimming?
01:04:34 * ttmrichter whistles innocently.
01:05:46 <jyfl987> lol, i am a southen chinese, but i dont know swimming
01:06:24 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: you are in wuhan, then how about the temperature?
01:06:57 <ttmrichter> It's cooler today than usual.  Only 32°C.
01:07:07 <ttmrichter> But raining.  So very high humidity.  :(
01:08:19 <jyfl987> yep, its the raining all day time in yangtz river valley
01:09:45 <ttmrichter> Actually that started today for us.
01:09:50 <ttmrichter> Yesterday was hot and sunny.
01:09:54 <ttmrichter> The day before was hot and sunny.
01:10:00 <ttmrichter> The day before that was hot and sunny.
01:10:01 <ttmrichter> ...
01:10:33 * ttmrichter needs to code a Forth word that parses " How's the weather?" and comes back "hot and shitty".
01:10:54 <ttmrichter> : WUHAN ( ... ) ... ;
01:15:25 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: is the usb controller could support a forth runtime?
01:15:53 <ttmrichter> Which USB controller where?
01:17:22 <jyfl987> the chipbang's controller got a 60% in market
01:18:21 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: i want to make a firmware let me to emulate multi image file as cd, so that i could include my crypt keys in one disk
01:18:39 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: maybe i should forward to harddisk?
01:19:11 <ttmrichter> That's out of my league.  I don't know anything about USB hardware.
01:20:34 <jyfl987> ttmrichter: btw, i really need a forth devkit on android
01:21:00 <jyfl987> i am learning java, and i am going to a app deving company
01:21:14 <jyfl987> maybe i could dev that one day 
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18:22:39 <phao> hey... which is a forth implementation for windows that I can use for learning while I read "thinking forth" ?
18:53:11 <Kumul> phao: winforth
18:53:20 <Kumul> phao: or, any
19:05:44 <phao> ok
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19:06:55 <phao> got this LMI Forth for Windows
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19:19:22 <ttmrichter> phao: How is it?
19:19:36 <phao> seems to work
19:19:46 <phao> I just want it to use while reading forth books
19:19:55 <ttmrichter> Where did you get it from?  (And is it commercial or F/OSS or something else?)
19:19:56 <phao> I am probably not going to use it for anything 'real world'
19:20:06 <phao> got it from here (wait)
19:20:17 * ttmrichter has taken the first step to writing a Forth for the STM8L-Discovery board.
19:20:22 <ttmrichter> I got the board working.  :)
19:20:39 <phao> hmm
19:20:45 <phao> is forth still used?
19:20:54 <phao> http://www.forth.org/compilers.html
19:20:59 <phao> it's somewhere in this list
19:21:26 <ttmrichter> Forth is still used, yes.
19:21:36 <ttmrichter> There's even a couple of commercial vendors of Forth environments.
19:23:34 <phao> ahh
19:26:29 <ttmrichter> In my opinion Forth remains the king of languages for constrained embedded environments.
19:26:48 <ttmrichter> For example this STM8L-Discovery board.
19:27:05 <ttmrichter> STM8 core (weird Harvard-architected 8-bit MCU).
19:27:15 <ttmrichter> 1KB of EEPROM for data.
19:27:25 <ttmrichter> 2KB of RAM.
19:27:29 <ttmrichter> 32KB of Flash.
19:28:24 <phao> hmm
19:28:35 <phao> and forth can run on that?
19:28:49 <ttmrichter> A Forth *program* could easily run on that.
19:29:02 <phao> nice =)
19:29:31 <ttmrichter> Getting an interactive runtime in that space could be a bit dicey, mind.
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19:29:52 <ttmrichter> It's doable.  (I've had Forth-alikes running in 16KB.)  But it's not easy and it gets very cramped.
19:30:25 <RodgerTheGreat> what are we talking about?
19:31:10 <ttmrichter> I was describing an MCU eval board I'm going to put a Forth(-alike) in.
19:31:20 <ttmrichter> phao was wondering if it could fit.
19:31:33 <ttmrichter> 1KB EEPROM, 2KB RAM, 32KB Flash.
19:31:38 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
19:31:53 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah that's a very small amount of ram to work with, but doable
19:31:57 <ttmrichter> I was saying I could get a Forth *program* in there easily, but a full runtime could get a bit cramped.
19:32:12 <ttmrichter> And no, that's not a very small amount of RAM.
19:32:26 <ttmrichter> The HC05Ks I worked with many moons ago were cramped.  ;)
19:32:36 <ttmrichter> (256 *bytes* of RAM, 2048KB of ROM)
19:32:39 <RodgerTheGreat> well I meant from the perspective of an interactive forth
19:32:51 <ttmrichter> Well, yeah, it is.
19:32:53 <RodgerTheGreat> plenty of rom space for a program
19:33:02 <RodgerTheGreat> plenty of ram for an executing program
19:33:12 <RodgerTheGreat> but very cramped for fitting a program in ram
19:33:21 <RodgerTheGreat> that's what I meant
19:33:27 <ttmrichter> I'd use the interactive runtime only for exploratory stuff.
19:33:40 <ttmrichter> You couldn't make much of a program in 2KB.
19:34:06 <RodgerTheGreat> most of the MCU setups I've heard about use a full-fledged desktop forth and a "tethered" bootloader thing running on the chip
19:34:27 <RodgerTheGreat> and then you cross-compile when you're happy with it
19:34:28 <ttmrichter> You *could*, however, write small tests quickly and easily and then add the results of your test to a program.
19:34:34 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
19:34:55 <ttmrichter> This STM8L chip, however, is really weird.
19:35:00 <ttmrichter> Writing a Forth for it won't be simple.
19:35:12 <ttmrichter> One 8-bit accumulator.
19:35:19 <RodgerTheGreat> urgh
19:35:29 <ttmrichter> Two 16-bit index registers (which can also act as 16-bit accumulators for some instructions).
19:35:35 <ttmrichter> A 16-bit stack pointer.
19:35:42 <ttmrichter> A 24-bit program counter.
19:35:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume you're shooting for a 16-bit forth
19:35:51 <RodgerTheGreat> or at least 16-bit cells
19:35:52 <ttmrichter> Nope.  8-bit.
19:35:53 <phao> well
19:35:57 <ttmrichter> But yeah, 16-bit cells.
19:35:57 <phao> I hope I enjoy this forth language
19:36:01 <RodgerTheGreat> hrm
19:36:07 <phao> the books are really highly regard
19:36:10 <phao> regarded*
19:36:14 <ttmrichter> Books?
19:36:23 <phao> yeah
19:36:27 <phao> like thinking forth, and POL
19:36:35 <RodgerTheGreat> so when you say "forth-alike", what sorts of things do you expect to change relative to a garden-variety forth?
19:36:41 <ttmrichter> Oh, Thinking Forth is one of my list of top computing books.
19:36:53 <ttmrichter> RodgerTheGreat: Well, for starters ANSI is out the window.
19:37:00 <RodgerTheGreat> well yeah
19:37:14 <RodgerTheGreat> 8 bits gives you that without question
19:37:26 <RodgerTheGreat> not to mention how huge the standard dictionary is
19:37:28 <ttmrichter> I'm probably going to target something along the lines of F83 as the vocabulary.
19:37:39 <ttmrichter> Yeah, exactly my problem with ANSI.  The bloat.
19:38:05 <ttmrichter> Also this is Harvard-architected and I suspect that's going to cause me some grief in the dictionary.
19:38:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I do most of my work with my own dialect of Forth
19:38:11 <RodgerTheGreat> oh geez
19:38:16 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah that doesn't help
19:38:35 <ttmrichter> So it will be a recognizable Forth-alike, but some features just can't be done the traditional Forth way.
19:38:42 <RodgerTheGreat> although if you use threaded code you can pretend it's von-neumann
19:38:55 <ttmrichter> I will be using indirect threading.
19:39:07 <ttmrichter> But that still likely means I need to use some bizarre split dictionary.
19:39:13 <RodgerTheGreat> subroutine-threaded can get you the best performance but doesn
19:39:21 <RodgerTheGreat> doesn't always fit well with architectures
19:40:23 <ttmrichter> This is going to be an interesting time.  I'll be going WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down memory lane with this.
19:40:48 <ttmrichter> Then I repeat it all with an STM32 eval board.
19:40:51 <ttmrichter> (ARM core.)
19:44:33 <RodgerTheGreat> in comparison that should be a snap
19:44:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I see why you'd want to save it for dessert
19:45:42 <ttmrichter> Well, that and the STM32 eval board is a huge complicated pig.
19:45:55 <ttmrichter> And I haven't done embedded work in about ... 15 years?  17?
19:46:01 <ttmrichter> Something like that.
19:46:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it's like assembling a bike
19:46:27 <ttmrichter> Writing my own Forth-alike is more like assembling a forge so I can build my bike.
19:46:38 <ttmrichter> And my bike will have THREE inline wheels, thank you very much!
19:46:49 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want it done right...
19:51:09 <ttmrichter> Well, that's the conceit of Forth for certain.
19:51:15 <ttmrichter> And since I'm very conceited myself, it suits me.  :D
19:51:16 <ttmrichter> But ...
19:51:26 <ttmrichter> I've heard Forth described as a "programmer amplifier".
19:51:34 <ttmrichter> If you have good habits, you can write GREAT programs.
19:51:44 <ttmrichter> If you have bad habits, you will write HORRIBLE programs.
19:52:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that's reasonably fair
19:52:42 <RodgerTheGreat> with the caveat that there are some domains it is better for in general
19:52:59 <RodgerTheGreat> some kinds of programs really *can* benefit from things like compiler-enforced static typing
19:53:48 <ttmrichter> Well obviously.
19:53:49 <RodgerTheGreat> writing compilers in forth, I sometimes wish it was stricter. Writing garbage collectors in forth, I am relieved it is so flexible.
19:54:04 <ttmrichter> I'm a computing polyglot.  I use whatever tool suits the job.
19:54:11 <RodgerTheGreat> pragmatism
19:54:12 <ttmrichter> I wouldn't want to write a word processor in Forth.  :)
19:55:14 <RodgerTheGreat> if the problem is small and flexible, forth will sing
19:55:56 <RodgerTheGreat> if the problem is huge and unwieldy it must first be hacked down
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19:56:08 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes you can't do that
19:56:17 <mark4> cant do what?
19:56:24 <mark4> amg thers action in here :)
19:56:36 <RodgerTheGreat> simplify huge nasty problems so that you can tackle them well in Forth
19:57:07 <RodgerTheGreat> if you wrote a web browser that did everything firefox does in forth, the forth would be perhaps slightly shorter than the C++ and nearly as nasty
19:57:23 <RodgerTheGreat> but that wouldn't be a forthy thing to do
19:57:31 <mark4> no. disagree, any problem can be reduced. 
19:57:36 <mark4> and onlyh if you used FF as a template
19:57:37 <RodgerTheGreat> you'd make something like a web browser but simpler
19:58:03 <mark4> writing a web browser in forth from scratch would be possible if someone wanted to do it
19:58:15 <RodgerTheGreat> possible, yes
19:58:18 <mark4> that would be the CM way yes
19:58:45 <mark4> tho... one could write a text based web browser in forth and it would probably be better than lynx and links
19:58:53 <mark4> if the person writing it had a clue about such things
19:58:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I agree with you there
19:59:20 <mark4> i once saw a doom type graphics engine coded in forth
19:59:22 <RodgerTheGreat> the more you can diverge from 100% feature parity with firefox the more practical such a task would become
19:59:43 <mark4> just follow the std
19:59:44 <RodgerTheGreat> gforth has OpenGL bindings I think
20:00:05 <RodgerTheGreat> WHAT standard? Nobody agrees about anything in webdev
20:00:13 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the problem
20:00:24 <mark4> pick one :)
20:00:30 <RodgerTheGreat> invent one
20:00:38 <mark4> there is a standard. just everyone super sets it
20:00:48 <RodgerTheGreat> give and take
20:00:48 <mark4> isforth is 100% isforth standard compliant
20:01:04 <ttmrichter> And then the superset becomes the new defacto standard.
20:01:14 <ttmrichter> Then the defacto standard is altered to become the latest W3C standard.
20:01:15 <RodgerTheGreat> and that's how we are where we are
20:01:23 <ttmrichter> The circle of life then continues.
20:02:00 * ttmrichter doesn't have a lot of respect for the web.
20:02:12 <RodgerTheGreat> it's very ugly
20:02:14 <mark4> btw i consider gforth to be not forth
20:02:17 <mark4> just fyi
20:02:23 <RodgerTheGreat> that's rather extreme
20:02:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I see it as a dialect, like most implementations
20:02:40 <mark4> the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language but a language of the same name
20:02:44 <mark4> gforth is no forth
20:02:54 <RodgerTheGreat> gforth is just a huge forth with lots of bits bolted on
20:02:56 <mark4> but then i would apply that quote to colorforth too
20:03:06 <mark4> if its huge its not forth
20:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
20:03:32 <mark4> if its not 100 times smaller than the equiv c its not forth
20:03:38 <mark4> and gforth IS c
20:03:54 <mark4> any forth writen in C is an abomination.
20:04:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's clear that the internet is here to stay, but I predict that in a few decades HTTP and the "web" will be deprecated
20:04:07 <mark4> gforth cannot metacompile its own kernel sources 
20:04:16 <mark4> not unless someone writes a c compiler extnsion
20:04:35 <mark4> i doubt http will be deprecated
20:04:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a good chunk of a pascal compiler
20:04:56 <RodgerTheGreat> http is the next gopher
20:05:11 <ttmrichter> RodgerTheGreat: HTTP won't be, but it will be layered over with things like WebSockets.
20:05:19 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe
20:05:50 <ttmrichter> I do think that the mess of HTML + CSS + JavaScript + this + that + the other will HAVE to give way (and soon!) to something more coherent and less stupid.
20:06:10 <RodgerTheGreat> or maybe as people shift towards using "internet appliances" and cell phone apps to experience the internet things will shift towards TCP/IP for improved efficiency
20:06:33 <mark4> cell phones are already the biggest user of the net
20:06:34 <RodgerTheGreat> with any luck we'll eventually get a portable bytecode to replace JS
20:06:38 <RodgerTheGreat> exactly
20:06:44 <mark4> i did about 120 gigs of data last month :)
20:06:49 <ttmrichter> Yes, a portable bytecode would be better than JS.
20:06:52 <mark4> but then i tether as tahts my only way to get webz
20:06:55 <RodgerTheGreat> and lots of people just use apps rather than websites
20:07:13 <RodgerTheGreat> if that becomes the rule, there's no reason to have HTTP
20:07:40 <mark4> www is too good of a marketing medium for it to go away\
20:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> just like AOL keywords
20:08:00 <mark4> aol sucked from the get go
20:08:08 <RodgerTheGreat> so did facebook
20:08:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and twitter
20:08:27 <mark4> neither of which will i ever go anywhere near
20:08:46 <RodgerTheGreat> me either, but for many people those are "the internet"
20:09:07 <RodgerTheGreat> email app, twitter client, facebook client
20:09:21 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe not even email, because people find texting easier to understand
20:09:30 <mark4> i removed fb and twit from my phone
20:09:35 <mark4> REMOVED
20:09:56 <RodgerTheGreat> thankfully my phone wasn't preloaded with either
20:10:07 <mark4> which phone?
20:10:11 <RodgerTheGreat> iphone
20:10:12 <mark4> obviously not a vzw phone
20:10:14 <mark4> ugh
20:10:33 <mark4> im not a fan of I-cant-phone
20:10:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I use a mac so it integrates well
20:11:13 <RodgerTheGreat> all cell phones suck anyway
20:11:23 <mark4> well true
20:11:31 <mark4> but at least android is open and can be easilly rooted
20:11:37 <mark4> yes you can JB the iphon
20:11:41 <mark4> but its STILL a closed system
20:11:41 <RodgerTheGreat> mine sucks but it looks pretty and it synchronizes with the desktop applications I use
20:12:18 <mark4> brb gotta restart x
20:12:20 <RodgerTheGreat> of all the locked down pseudo-computers I deal with on a daily basis I have no desire to fuck around with my cell phone
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20:12:40 <RodgerTheGreat> it's for making calls and checking my email
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20:14:49 <RodgerTheGreat> oh cool I didn't notice you were an op
20:15:08 <mark4> im the original founder
20:15:16 <mark4> tho i claim zero ownership on the channel
20:15:23 <mark4> all the idlers own it :)
20:15:35 <mark4> and restarting x didnt do it. have to log out and back again. brb :)
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20:16:14 <ttmrichter> So I own the channel?  Cool!
20:16:19 <ttmrichter> Oh, wait!  I'm not idling now.  :(
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20:17:26 <mark4> ok that fixed it
20:19:23 <phao> ttmrichter, 
20:19:34 <phao> it seems that forth implementations are sort of really good at generating fast programs
20:26:44 <ttmrichter> Well, they're faster than most interpreters to be sure, but slower than optimized compiler outputs.
20:27:07 <ttmrichter> I use Forth for its flexibility, its small size and its support for exploratory programming, not for speed.
20:29:39 <mark4> isforth compiles MEGS of source per second
20:31:33 <mark4> on this box it might compile gigs of source per second :)
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21:32:42 <RodgerTheGreat> phao: they don't usually do much optimization, but forth compilers which emit machine code directly can get good performance
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