00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.06.17 00:36:48 --- quit: fantazo (Remote host closed the connection) 01:20:48 --- join: entwislegrove (~Duncan_En@host86-135-158-162.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 01:20:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v entwislegrove 01:47:43 --- join: emerge (~emerge@116.237.7.24) joined #forth 01:47:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v emerge 02:01:10 --- quit: emerge () 02:11:05 --- quit: jillsmitt_ (Remote host closed the connection) 02:18:12 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 02:28:27 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 02:28:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 02:33:59 --- quit: phirsch (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:46:07 --- join: jillsmitt (~jillsmitt@46.227.184.143) joined #forth 02:46:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v jillsmitt 02:46:32 --- join: phirsch (~phirsch@xdsl-89-0-82-22.netcologne.de) joined #forth 02:46:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v phirsch 02:48:48 --- quit: jillsmitt (Client Quit) 03:08:48 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closed the connection) 17:25:21 --- quit: borkman (Remote host closed the connection) 17:52:31 --- quit: uiu (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 17:54:26 --- join: uiu (~ian@HSI-KBW-46-223-6-60.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) joined #forth 17:54:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +v uiu 18:18:03 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 18:38:59 --- quit: jillsmitt (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 19:13:33 --- join: entwislegrove (~Duncan_En@host86-135-158-162.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 19:13:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +v entwislegrove 19:16:30 --- quit: entwislegrove1 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 19:54:31 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@61.184.206.85) joined #forth 19:54:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 20:49:15 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:07:55 --- join: black_13 (467c40e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.124.64.229) joined #forth 21:07:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v black_13 21:12:12 what is meant by the inner interpreter 21:14:28 Look it up. 21:19:18 still not clear 21:19:58 I'm sure that you can grep over "Starting Forth", 21:20:26 even if it is modern edition I don't think they eliminated this terminology. 21:20:34 ok 21:20:43 i wish i had taken assembly language 21:21:57 Honestly, if you are asking about inner interpreter because 21:21:58 something explains functionality in such terms, 21:22:02 you should find other way. 21:22:25 And if you're implementing Forth, you should acquire more experience first. 21:23:54 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:24:03 --- join: entwislegrove1 (~Duncan_En@host86-135-158-162.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 21:24:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +v entwislegrove1 21:24:13 What are you doing? 21:24:30 ASau: i am trying to understand something i found 21:24:42 Well... 21:26:19 i think i understand the inner interpreter ... its a set of fixed functions ...its a vector of strings mapped to functions 21:26:21 --- quit: entwislegrove (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:26:31 No, that's wrong. 21:26:45 oh 21:27:59 Referring to "inner interpreter" is really archaic way of explaining how the stuff works. 21:28:17 Basically, "inner interpreter" is interpreter of threaded code, 21:28:34 which means that explanation involves implementation details. 21:28:58 ill hunt your book article 21:28:59 And threaded code is rather far from being effective implementation. 21:29:14 they why did it come to use 21:29:21 was it because it was simple? 21:29:30 Yes. 21:29:58 Forth is mostly occupation of engineers, and they are not much educated in CS. 21:29:58 i have looked at the books for writting interpreters and it gets ugly 21:30:08 me 21:30:15 you just described myself 21:31:04 ok i use to have chevy impala i inhereted from my grampa 21:31:11 are you familiar with the car? 21:31:27 https://coursera.org/ 21:31:33 Go and enroll compilers course. 21:32:16 it was easy to work on and parts were easy to find but it was polluter and got so so gas mileage 21:32:19 Even if you don't achieve much (which is impossible since the course is going to the end, IIRC), you'll learn some useful things. 21:33:14 is this an online class 21:33:20 Yes, and it is free. 21:33:30 that link isnt working 21:33:40 http://coursera.org/ then. 21:34:30 i wonder if mit has some open coarse work 21:34:50 No idea, sorry. 21:34:57 But you can check it yourself. 21:34:57 no worries 21:36:38 Also, I don't think that Stanford and Berkeley are worse than MIT. 21:37:20 Don't know much about U.Penn. and U.Mich. in the domain of humanities. 21:39:04 http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/moving1.htm 21:39:29 I like the idea of simple 21:39:46 and what i want to do doesn't have to be fast 21:44:41 There're other important factors besides speed. 21:47:57 As for writing interpreters, 21:48:47 when you're tinkering in your car, you don't start from 21:48:47 digging for coal and iron ore to produce your own tools. 21:49:06 You're using standard tools and standard components. 21:50:42 Leaving coal mining and steel manufacturing to respective professionals. 21:52:01 Software engineering works the same way. 21:52:49 If you want domain-specific language, you don't start from 21:52:49 reading old books describing obsolete technologies. 21:53:14 You use standard components which represent state of art. 21:56:55 really? when started school i took trig its kind of old like egypt old 21:57:25 How frequently do you use trigonometry in your life? 21:57:58 i did quite a bit when i was working for the engineering company 21:57:59 I'm sure that you don't solve ballistic equations in your head when you're throwing stones. 21:58:46 And even when you use trigonometry, you don't calculate functions on paper using Taylor series. 21:59:08 i think there are basic ideas that are kind of timeless and the processors have changed in speed but the 8086 has been around since the 80s 21:59:37 i like forth because its easy enough to understand 21:59:49 8086 is as dead as horse carriages. 22:00:09 You don't drive horses when you need to get to another city, 22:00:15 you take your car instead. 22:00:38 ok but the car has been around for 100 years 22:00:44 much changed but same idea 22:00:51 4 wheels 22:01:06 lots of changes but same ideas 22:01:11 And Pentium is around for 10 years, much changed. 22:01:41 BURG is around for about 25 years, 22:01:52 and i think on these memory constrained devices forth has a place or ideas 22:01:55 and it isn't the most effective code generator. 22:02:09 whats burg? 22:02:13 Look it up. 22:02:53 There're many other code generators that allow different optimizations, 22:03:22 more effective than manually factoring your source code to cram threaded code into your MCU. 22:04:00 listening 22:05:07 ok i ask this ... your on a forth channel but you seem to be very critical of forth 22:05:33 Yes, I'm critical of anything I use or used. 22:05:53 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@91.119.137.254) joined #forth 22:05:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v fantazo 22:06:30 Without being critical you cannot distinguish between good and bad. 22:06:44 i have to start some place if its wrong 22:07:52 If what you do is one-time work, and you know Forth already, 22:07:56 then it's fine to use it. 22:08:16 But even then you should consider other ways. 22:13:10 By the way, if you look at Forth community, e.g. as 22:13:11 represented by comp.lang.forth, you'll find that all famous 22:13:11 Forth users, if they don't have commercial interest in 22:13:11 continuing Forth (like running Forth vendor), have left it. 22:13:45 Some went into TCL, some into Lua, some into Java. 22:13:55 Think about it. 22:15:22 --- quit: black_13 (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 22:18:48 Python - the current language of choice in the sciences. 22:19:19 Yes, some went even there. 22:20:44 Debian now supports all the popular formats for medical imaging and image processing and image reconstruction with bindings for Python. 22:20:54 With the current quality of free Forth compilers only real fanatics can invest time into it. 22:21:21 Or those who are unable to learn other language. 22:21:37 There has been a definite decline in free Forths. 22:21:49 Well... 22:22:11 I can't say that there was significant progress in them. 22:22:22 It goed back a long way's to Ting taking all the IP to Taiwan and selling cheap copies. 22:22:50 ANd the standards club pretty much wrecked the development. 22:23:06 The latter is pretty irrelevant. 22:23:21 Python is good demonstration of that. 22:24:03 And Scheme. 22:24:29 Hardly. The ANS FOrth was from a group in a club that did not admit new members. It was a hobby group who called them selves the Forth standards Team and would send out press releases. 22:24:52 Do you mean the recent one? 22:24:56 3 guys with a FAX machine. 22:25:28 That is where it came from. It is contradictory and ended serious experimentation. 22:25:42 Well... At least, there's some sense in ANS'94. 22:25:53 You can date the end of FOrth in commercial success to the release of ANS FOrth. 22:25:55 Older implementations are... well... 22:26:58 I can date the end of Forth in commercial success to the appearance of reasonably cheap 32-bit hardware. 22:27:04 Things like Mops could have evolved into things like Python in usability and general robustness. 22:27:19 But they didn't. 22:27:28 --- join: jillsmitt (~jillsmitt@178.238.76.107) joined #forth 22:27:29 --- mode: ChanServ set +v jillsmitt 22:27:40 No. ANS ended the experiments. 22:28:11 Once there was an "official" version, who would take a risk on something else? 22:28:22 If you mean that ANS is that powerful, then it contradicts your claim above. 22:28:31 Nobody got fired for choosing 'c'. 22:28:47 Sure. 22:29:00 As an idea, it is that powerful. Yes, in terms of marketing it is that powerful. 22:29:10 That is not a contradiction. 22:29:27 Same applies for Scheme, CL, Python, Lua, TCL, and perhaps other languages adopted after 1994. 22:29:43 Erlang, Scala, Haskell. 22:29:49 Same applies to IBM PC and DOS. 22:29:59 DOS is dead. 22:30:01 * ASau shrugs. 22:30:27 Why did MS succeed? Same reason. Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM. 22:30:33 Also, noone forced you to use IBM PC DOS. 22:30:53 You could have used DR DOS, NW, or even MacOS. 22:31:03 Never worked in the real world, eh? Are you a teacher? 22:31:07 Or 386BSD. 22:31:40 Tell me more about real world. 22:32:00 I know at least two big companies that used NW, 22:32:19 and several similar that used BSD or Solaris. 22:32:24 --- quit: jillsmitt (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 22:32:38 Nobody "forced me" to use RSTS-E, unless I wanted to keep my job. 22:33:22 Well... In that time you used what you had access to. 22:33:26 Nobody forced me to use ADA, except Boeing and the Air Force. 22:33:44 There's no language called "ADA". :p 22:34:49 WHat an ass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_%28programming_language%29 22:35:24 It is spelled "Ada" since it is personal name and isn't acronym. 22:35:27 Setting you to "ignore. 22:35:42 Good luck. 22:36:05 That should do it. Anyone else around? 22:37:14 I wonder how he managed to read my mistyped "WHat"? There is no such word! WHat a mystery. 22:39:46 (No wonder why you're so stupid. Now tell us more about ANS conspiracy.) 22:47:07 --- join: john_metcalf (~digital_w@87.115.178.251) joined #forth 22:47:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v john_metcalf 22:47:16 he does have a point regnirps, honest mistake though, no need to get mad 22:48:34 He doesn't seem to have any interest in Forth. I don't need to read his comments. 22:48:47 Samo ol same ol. 22:49:37 criticism is needed for evolution 22:51:08 Criticism is one thing. Constant denigration is another and a waste of time. 22:51:41 Evaded the "are you a teacher" question though. 22:53:13 As if you're interested in answers... Ha! 22:53:49 i am, will you answer? 22:54:04 No, I'm not, if that matters to you. 22:54:13 Answer what? 22:54:38 not that much i guess, was just curious 22:55:01 As if being a teacher is the only way not to fall into conspiracy theories... 22:55:01 regnirps: was speaking to the ignored one 22:56:14 It is rather funny to read oh-cool-professional claiming 22:56:14 that ANS committee was a mere club of friends, and Forth 22:56:14 declining just because this closed club published some standard. 22:56:49 OK. Not that all teachers and professors suck. I have been there myself. But these days I pay for the research budgets in EE and CS for selected Ph.D candidates and hire them if they work out. 22:57:39 They have to be smarter than me, which is getting easier every year. 22:59:45 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@61.184.206.85) joined #forth 22:59:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 22:59:54 Even the recent story of ERR5RS vs. R6RS split ended by ERR5RS going into oblivion. 23:08:20 --- part: Kumul left #forth 23:15:13 --- quit: Monevii (Remote host closed the connection) 23:22:17 --- quit: fantazo (Remote host closed the connection) 23:32:54 --- join: entwislegrove (~Duncan_En@host86-135-158-162.range86-135.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 23:32:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v entwislegrove 23:35:09 --- quit: entwislegrove1 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.06.17