00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.06.08 00:08:34 --- quit: fantazo (Remote host closed the connection) 01:46:52 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@122.228.67.12) joined #forth 01:46:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 02:18:21 --- join: ASau` (~user@176.14.227.238) joined #forth 02:18:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau` 02:22:18 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:25:13 --- quit: dom96 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:33:52 --- join: dom96 (dom96@unaffiliated/dom96) joined #forth 02:34:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +v dom96 03:19:00 --- quit: jyfl987 (Quit: leaving) 05:16:13 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@108-75-59-67.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 05:16:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +v DocPlatypus 05:27:23 --- quit: phirsch (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 05:32:23 --- join: phirsch (~phirsch@xdsl-89-0-79-115.netcologne.de) joined #forth 05:32:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v phirsch 06:10:08 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@91.119.75.149) joined #forth 06:10:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +v fantazo 06:36:13 --- quit: answer_42 (Remote host closed the connection) 08:37:15 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-76-230-151-120.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 08:37:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion 09:10:47 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: Leaving) 09:57:59 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 10:04:51 --- join: Onionnion (~ryan@adsl-76-230-151-120.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 10:04:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Onionnion 10:10:00 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 11:23:22 --- quit: Onionnion (Quit: Leaving) 12:03:34 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~RodgerThe@71-13-215-128.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com) joined #forth 12:03:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +v RodgerTheGreat 12:34:34 --- join: ASau (~user@95-26-235-15.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 12:34:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ASau 12:37:53 --- join: Monevii (~Monevii@adsl-64-237-234-175.prtc.net) joined #forth 12:37:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Monevii 12:38:02 --- join: Kumul (~Kumul@adsl-64-237-234-175.prtc.net) joined #forth 12:38:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Kumul 15:01:37 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 15:01:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty^ 15:08:17 --- part: nighty left #forth 15:10:28 --- join: nighty (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 15:10:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty 15:10:59 --- quit: nighty (Client Quit) 15:31:49 --- join: koisoke (xef4@epilogue.org) joined #forth 15:31:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v koisoke 15:32:06 --- join: cataska_ (~cataska@210.64.6.233) joined #forth 15:32:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +v cataska_ 15:37:03 --- quit: cataska (*.net *.split) 15:37:03 --- quit: DaDaDOSPrompt (*.net *.split) 15:37:03 --- quit: Nisstyre (*.net *.split) 15:37:03 --- quit: koisoke_ (*.net *.split) 15:42:10 --- join: DaDaDOSPrompt (~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net) joined #forth 15:42:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +v DaDaDOSPrompt 15:45:24 --- join: Nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 15:45:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Nisstyre 15:47:54 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:48:02 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@108-75-59-67.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 15:48:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +v DocPlatypus 16:17:51 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 16:28:11 --- quit: Psyclonic (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 16:41:18 --- join: Psyclonic (~psyclone@67-5-152-121.ptld.qwest.net) joined #forth 16:41:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Psyclonic 17:05:44 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@61.184.206.221) joined #forth 17:05:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 17:51:33 --- quit: phirsch (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 17:57:57 --- join: phirsch (~phirsch@xdsl-89-0-135-46.netcologne.de) joined #forth 17:57:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v phirsch 18:56:34 --- quit: Monevii (Remote host closed the connection) 18:57:00 --- quit: Kumul (Quit: gone) 19:06:19 so what's everybody up to this fine Friday? 19:08:17 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 19:12:54 ntu/bu17 19:40:31 --- join: regnirps_ (~regnirpsM@184-157-252-31.dyn.centurytel.net) joined #forth 19:40:32 --- quit: regnirps (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:40:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +v regnirps_ 19:40:32 --- nick: regnirps_ -> regnirps 19:48:12 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@108-75-59-67.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:48:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +v DocPlatypus 20:16:59 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@9.sub-166-249-130.myvzw.com) joined #forth 20:17:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 20:27:54 RodgerTheGreat: Enjoying this fine Saturday morning. ;) 20:28:20 what's it like in the future? You guys have flying cars yet? 20:29:35 i still have not got my floating car to not sinc yet! 20:29:41 didnt start on the flying one :) 20:34:18 at least there's progress 20:38:44 RodgerTheGreat: I'm just slightly ahead of the times. 20:38:58 Tip, though: don't invest in Nokia. They look bad tomorrow. 22:00:25 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:08:46 still something going on here? 22:09:22 I just woke up in here, yawning... what to eat for breakfast... coffeee... 22:14:36 coffee! 22:14:41 i just roated a fresh batch 22:14:46 but its too late now :( 22:14:53 where are you located fantazo ? 22:15:22 austria, the small state in the middle of europe. 22:26:23 I think Forth enthusiasts should go retro. Write new implementations of FIG Forth or Forth79. It works just fine and is a lot easier to do than ANSI. The whole thing is one assembler file with most of it sort of hand compiled Forth words in the assembler. 22:27:45 If portability is important (yeah, like your AVR Forth code needs to run on a PIC) put a notice in the code about the word size and stack size. 22:28:32 Who is up for it? FOrth words are really short in ARM assembly and even indirect threaded code can be done with a two instruction inner interpreter. 22:29:14 regnirps: I thought every Forth enthusiast writes their own Forth at some point. :) 22:29:43 I have ARM11's at 800 MHz (S3C6410). I think nearly all of FIG (maybe all) can be locked in half the cache for no memory latency. 22:30:19 True. But in the last great cycle of life, it lead to over standardizing and killed itself. 22:32:17 Ok, I have 1 HGz A8 Cortex's. Inner interpreter is 2 instructions. WHat is that, 2 nsec? 22:33:31 How about a Forth hacker's discount? I can arrange that. I sponsor Linux boot time contests so why not some FOrth stuff? www.andahammer.com 22:35:07 Just got in samples of the new design. A8 1GHz, 512M RAM 4G NAND, 4.3" LCD. $199 retail. 22:35:17 11x11cm 22:35:48 ttmrichter, thats the initiation ritual, you are a forth coder after that. 22:36:59 lsf83 ftw 22:37:09 erm bleh f83 ftw even lol 22:37:16 portability is a myth 22:37:17 period 22:38:14 Write Once Test Everywhere. 22:38:20 That's about as close to portability as you can get. 22:38:48 write everywhere. development time in forth is a complete and utter non issue 22:39:00 Ah, Portability of *FORTH* is a myth. 22:39:12 Portability in general isn't provided you test each target platform. 22:39:13 of the system yes 22:39:35 of forth code? i refuse to accept any standard other than my own as THE standard 22:40:21 i follow the isforth standard 100% guaranteed 22:40:43 even ans forths cannot guarantee following the ans standard 100% 22:40:51 because thats would be impossible 22:41:27 show me any portable code and il show you N versions of that code all interelaved into each other 22:41:34 The ANS is impossible. It says you can mix systems with FP numbers on an FP stack or on the P stack. 22:41:38 i wont even support conditional compilation because of that shit 22:41:40 Can't be done. 22:42:08 depends. what if the processor has a floating point stack only :) 22:42:15 You can do it with huge free man hours. 22:42:26 Like Debian. 22:42:37 isforth will never support conditional compilation 22:42:59 So you wrote for it and it and the code won't run on a system with paramater stack FP. 22:43:52 so what 22:43:55 nuff sed 22:43:56 I proved it before the standard was adopted. There are always cases that will not run on both. 22:44:11 nothing to stop you from adding the extension 22:45:10 ??? I'm saying the ANS standard contains contradictions. Ignore it and wirte FIG. 22:45:59 That was the problem with the Standards Team, which was a club. They managed to get ANS to take them seriously and killed the language for serious use. 22:46:49 or use the 83 standard and fudge it for 32/64 bit systems 22:47:08 that way you dont have to limp wrist UNBROKEN things like compile and [compile] and not 22:47:12 Not crazy about F83, but it is OK in a pinch. 22:47:31 i hold you in a higher regard than any ans fanboy 22:47:46 The two main proponents were pretty excentric and insistent about a few things we didn't need. 22:47:57 but im an 83 kinda guy, i even used to limit the number of people in here to 83 lol 22:48:10 but i dont really want to limit this channel i any way :) 22:48:33 but it was kinda funny lol 22:48:43 --- mode: I440r set +l 83 22:48:48 --- mode: I440r set -l 22:48:57 lol 22:48:57 SO, what about an ARM Forth contest? I can discount ARM9 and ARM11 boards. 22:49:17 i want to write a version of isforth for android 22:49:20 its on the todo lidt 22:49:22 list 22:49:26 and for the raspberry pi 22:49:32 I have Android for the boars. 22:49:38 boards. 22:49:41 but i will need to write an arm 11 assembler first 22:49:59 Won't touch the Pi. 22:50:12 Unethical business practice. 22:50:13 well i think their heart is in the right place 22:50:25 a PD forth for pi would be a nice touch 22:50:42 how unethical 22:50:58 I think it will be blocked from the US bu dumping complaints if it ever gets past FCC. 22:51:06 why 22:52:06 Designer is main chip designer at Broadcom. Broadcom supplies chips at special cost. Volunteer labor allows pricing below cost. Selling below cost is dumping. 22:52:22 AHA 22:52:39 so we may never get to buy them in the US? 22:52:42 that sucks 22:52:43 u think pi costs more to produce than they charge? 22:53:05 It is a marketing ploy to get Broadcom chips in teh hands of lots of engineers while acting as if it is all about third world literacy. 22:53:28 Like Beagle board and TI. 22:53:32 I'd like to have something like it. but I don't really trust Broadcom, they have been less than liberal with documentation in the past 22:53:49 i dont like beagle board OR arduino 22:54:02 what's wrong with Arduino? 22:54:05 Get one of miine and you get a descent display with a touch pad. 22:54:17 avr with training wheels. its mommy holding your hand 22:54:29 8/16 MHz. Good for some kinds of hard real-time. 22:54:35 l2 code. without training wheels 22:55:12 The Maple Leaf project has put the Arduino dev environment on M3 Cortex. 22:56:20 its still mommy holding your hand protecting you from you 22:57:05 In one evening I set up an Arduino, loaded the GPS sketch and connected a module, and shazaam! IT was working. Very nice for some things. 22:57:19 and you did nothing. it did it all for you 22:57:23 you learned JACK SHIT 22:57:24 But very limited RAM and flash. 22:57:31 tjhat doesnt make you an embedded developer 22:57:36 it makes you a short oder cook 22:57:50 take all the ingrediets, put them in the easy bake oven and yay 22:57:54 out pops a computer program 22:57:59 Well,m I have done it before the hard way, and appreciated the time savings. 22:58:30 you want it right or do you want it right now? 22:58:38 yes the industry doesnt give a FUCK aobut right 22:58:40 they waont NOW 22:58:44 But yes, places like Sparkfun seam to be turning into sand boxes for beginning solderers and connect the dots projects. 22:59:01 adafruit 23:00:18 I think Both have made a wrong turn. They are focusing on education and kits for schools. I used to teach AP physic, CHem, and Math. The schools don't have the money for anything more complicated than paper clips and cardboard. 23:01:07 :) 23:01:38 im 99% of the way thru developing a complete teathered forth for the avr 23:01:54 specifically so i can give it to ladyada 23:02:10 but public domain 23:02:52 Just 1% to go? In defense of Arduino sketches for things like GPS that have been tested enough, I have done the full internal GPS code before for Boeing and there isd massive oportunity for error. 23:03:22 I mean the stuff inside the chip, not the stuff running on the Arduino. 23:04:11 my issue with arduino is that the beginner who it is aimed at needs to be pushed to DIY 23:04:17 boing boing boing. boeing 23:04:18 not easy bake oven 23:04:42 Time, error calcs, ephemerides for each sat, Kalman filters of several sorts, etc. , etc. GPS is insanely complicated system. 23:04:51 they need to be taught HOW to diy not how to use someone elses hard work 23:05:00 embedded devs dont have that luxury 23:05:11 new product. need bsp. need to write drivers. 23:05:25 well i just have this arduino and it just works! 23:05:32 I440r, what you want, that people actually now how they should code something? isn't python on arduino for you too slow?! 23:05:32 i dont know SHIT about anything 23:05:33 CHeck todays Sparkfun new products video for some really useless stuff and some very stupid comments by the vendor. 23:05:33 ;-) 23:06:01 I think I need to quote you some time I440r for the easy bake oven. 23:06:02 fantazo, i just dont think mommy shoulf be holding everyones hand 23:06:12 heh i stolded that :P 23:06:23 fair and square :P~ 23:06:34 I440r, I think that too. but heh, the industry makes everything golden, right? 23:06:39 im not against the use of libraries 23:06:41 I used Forth for ages to bring up new hardware. It was always the first thing running. Cross compiled (metacomplier) for the new hardware. 23:06:52 but what im against is the use of libs for the beginner 23:07:04 hold their hand only so far. make THEM think 23:07:29 i still dont have a metacompiler for isforth /cry 23:07:41 i cant write an x86 assembler. and nobody elses is good enough:( 23:07:45 started to write one 23:07:52 Most of the Arduino users would never get beyond step one. I guess the idea is that after they see something work, they may dig in and go back to see what really happens. 23:07:55 but keep getting stuck 23:08:07 no they wont 23:08:23 they will just expet everything to "just work" tm 23:08:29 like ubuntu users 23:08:53 I440r, you are brave, if you are trying to write an x86 assembler. The instruction set just sucks. 23:09:03 Well, I don't even get the wearable lilypads and stuff at Sparkfun. 23:09:43 Goes way back. 4004, 8008, 8080, 8088, 80186 ..... all suck. 23:09:58 fantazo, look at the opcode encodings in OCTAL not hex 23:10:01 they make sense then 23:10:10 i just have a mental block 23:10:18 same mental block since 2011 23:10:21 cant write it 23:10:25 If IBM had not chosen that stupid chip, S100 and CPM would have faded away and we could have gone on to better things. 23:10:28 wrote an avr assembler in 2 weeks 23:10:42 FULL avr assembler that works for any processor other than the tiny 23:10:48 maybe evenfor those 23:11:11 meh we still need to thank them 23:11:14 and intel 23:11:35 I440r, good that there are only 3 commonly used number systems. looking at it in octal.. have the designers read to much discworld? 23:11:38 I think Glen Haydon wrote a reasonable 8086 assembler in MVPForth. The source should be available and it isn;t very long. 23:11:44 cpm would have been a bad choice 23:12:01 I recall the 6502 assembler is only about 6 screens long. 23:12:15 i dont want 8086. i want x86 including all intel and amd opcodes and fpu 23:12:16 Windows is CPM. 23:12:35 hang on 23:13:10 Gates bought West Seattle DOS, which was a buggy ripoff of Gary Kildall's CPM and modified it for IBM's hardware. 23:13:19 www.isforth.com/asm16.f 23:13:36 unreleased, unifinshed 23:13:59 he released it and ibm said FUCK NO give us the fucking sources 23:14:01 Haydon's design of the assembler might be useful. 23:14:05 they then fixed over 200 bugs 23:14:11 i only ever ran ibm-pc dos 23:14:23 look at mine 23:14:29 all enodings are in octal 23:16:14 i also have a damned nice avr assembler i did not release yet 23:16:39 and wrote a direct threaded avr forth 23:17:06 want to write a metacompiler for a sub threaded version too 23:17:09 but there are issues 23:17:27 im using isforth as my basis and isforth DEMANDS its host follow the FSH standard 23:17:40 none of the .deb based linux's do so 23:17:47 NONE of them 23:18:27 the FSH standard? 23:19:01 I use Debian because a new version does not get a name until the full repository functions on all supported architectures. 23:19:33 You can "apt-get install python" on the ARM just as easily as the desktop x86. 23:19:40 http://www.pathname.com/fhs/ 23:19:45 I don't think FSH standard is this one: "The fourth International Standard for Human Urinary FSH" 23:19:50 emerge blah bah 23:20:02 ah that one. 23:20:35 terminfo will be in /usr/share/terminfo NOT /lib/terminfo 23:20:41 dumbasses 23:20:47 AT least the /'s slant the right way :-) 23:21:02 i wont add ductape code to my product to fix YOUR breakgages 23:21:10 heh true 23:21:14 but thats not enough 23:24:01 anyway time for zzz. 23:24:23 1 30 am 23:24:33 nite fellow forthers :) 23:24:42 Forth love if honk then 23:33:52 honk 23:43:01 Forth 23:43:03 D'oh! 23:43:09 Problem in the parser. Let me hack that a bit... 23:45:56 parser? 23:47:53 why is it actually so that .( ) is used for displaying loading messages and not ." " ? 23:50:41 * ASau notices usual stupidity from retromaniacs. 23:52:58 * fantazo notices that ASau reads in austrian "a sod" 23:58:19 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.06.08