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(4fadfeed@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.173.254.237) joined #forth 15:09:24 --- mode: ChanServ set +v dana_ 15:09:48 hello 15:12:17 hi 15:13:44 DocPlatypus: i was trying to get Starting Forth online tutorial on my laptop so i can read it at home, i do not have internet at home but only at school :( is there pdf version of that tutorial? 15:14:30 dana_: not sure, besides downloading the whole thing with, say, wget 15:14:35 I haven't looked at it in ages 15:17:08 DocPlatypus: well i am new to it, i found about it by chance today.. i am still unsure if this language is still used and i should invest time in learning it... so i wanted to tutorial.. and read about it on wikipedia.. i will try wget'ing the whole thing but am afraid it will take long time wgeting each page :s 15:17:24 it is still used, mainly in embedded systems 15:18:15 DocPlatypus: hmmm like elua? that would be cool :) 15:18:48 Carrier IQ, the controversial smart phone code, uses Forth 15:20:19 DocPlatypus: cooool .. any other uses besides embedded systems? 15:22:18 it's seeing some use elsewhere 15:22:36 I mean, it probably never will catch on like C or Java or C# 15:23:36 but why? 15:25:34 Because it is hard to support. 15:25:54 There are other uses, but they mostly come from old generation, 15:26:10 or of concept nature ("because I can"). 15:26:59 Also, stack-based VM are demonstrated to be slower than register-based ones. 15:28:17 (Note that all Chuck Moore's processors are not purely stack-based for decades.) 15:30:24 mmm... so when thinking in terms of embedded systems, i get the feeling that elua is going to be the next trend.. and when thinking of non embedded systems.. i have python and java in mind.. for web php.. hmmm.. not sure where forth can fit nowadays :( too few uses i guess.. maybe it is not much practical to learn it nowadays... :( 15:31:04 It is not "going to be the next trend," 15:31:07 it is there already. 15:31:57 Yes, Forth is not much practical to learn these days. 15:32:06 I envision something that's a hybrid between stack- and register-based ... something where the top 8 registers are the top 8 stack items, and a load into register A moves the contents of A to B, and so on 15:32:27 feasible? 15:32:36 Register schedulers are out there already. 15:33:48 * tschak_ is getting a GreenArrays GA144 eval board, will post thoughts on it when i have some. 15:35:05 --- quit: dana_ (Quit: Page closed) 15:35:36 dana_, Forth is a highly individualistic language...it shares little to no commonality with established computer science doctrine, and in many cases blatantly contradicts it. However, this is counter balanced by the fact that it is extremely compact, and can be very efficient once you understand how it works. Forth's biggest strengths come into play when it is the environment running on a piece of hardware being the programming, 15:35:36 operating system, and runtime environment for an application. 15:35:47 aaand of course he had to leave right when i said that. 15:36:43 It is only slightly more compact and loses much in comparison. 15:37:45 Also note, that once you understand how Lua works, it becomes even more efficient. 15:38:07 pardon me, but seriously, why the fuck are you here? 15:38:16 you are nothing but a cunt, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 15:38:42 Why are _you_ here? 15:39:00 because I use fig-FORTH. 15:39:28 You can use it without misleading freshmen programmers like dana_. 15:40:31 why is what I said misleading? 15:40:32 it's not. 15:40:38 Do you need it in details? 15:40:57 oh, I forgot, you seem to get off on beating people over the head with your suiperiority. 15:41:06 superiority. 15:41:34 seriously, you've done more damage running people off, than just about anyone else in here. 15:41:45 Shall I read it as withdrawing your statement? 15:41:55 no. 15:42:04 I don't, in some cases, Forth is the only option. 15:42:15 besides assembler. 15:42:32 and I'm not bashing lua either 15:42:32 List those cases. 15:42:34 I love Lua 15:42:53 has anyone pushed Lua to an 8-bit microcontroller? 15:43:28 And how is Forth better than C there? 15:44:02 Just to remind you that we're not living in eighties 15:44:15 when all you had was just that micro. 15:44:30 no, we're not, and if the constant compile link passes don't bother you, then by all means, use C 15:44:35 USE WHATEVER MAKES SENSE TO YOU. 15:44:59 ASau, you seem to have a viewpoint that only your view is valid 15:45:14 ASau, you have consistently beaten that into every single person here. 15:45:24 ASau, this makes you a cunt. 15:45:26 For 8-bit micro noone notices that compile-link length, it takes way less than scheduling data yourself. 15:45:43 and yes, very true, the compiles are fast 15:45:50 tschak_: there are ways to express your opinion without using an offensive slang term for female genitalia 15:45:51 but for me, I _LIKE_ the interactivity that Forth provides there 15:46:04 DocPlatypus, very true. 15:46:19 * tschak_ further refrains from its use. 15:46:20 Get modern IDE and you'll have the same interactivity with C. 15:46:40 ASau: though to be fair, it says a lot when you drive someone to use such unnecessary language 15:47:10 and honestly... I think you subtract more than you add to this channel by your continued presence and expression of your viewpoints 15:47:14 you seem to be very anti-Forth 15:47:19 in which case it makes little sense for you to be here 15:47:29 DocPlatypus: this says a lot about maturity level of such opponents. 15:47:39 * tschak_ facepalms. 15:48:14 Grow up and start arguing like a man rather than a little boy. 15:48:16 I came here, because, after 30 years of learning other languages, I finally came around to learning Forth 15:48:24 ASau: I refuse to use slang terms for female genitalia myself in describing someone. however I agree in principle with what tschak_ is saying 15:48:58 anyone in the mood to watch a game of IRC football where ASau is the ball? 15:49:03 DocPlatypus: bring coding metrics then. 15:49:21 I came to learning Forth because of the opportunity of using it on hardware that I know exceptionally well from long ago 15:49:41 if the future is Forth-to-C compilers for use on PC-type hardware, I'm game. 15:49:41 and I've accepted that I probably will never use it on modern hardware 15:50:07 but the perspective I've gained from learning how to code in Forth has been a very positive one 15:50:16 I actually use Forth on modern hardware, mainly as a prototype for future embedded systems I plan to build 15:50:35 it is a breath of fresh air to be able to do a lot in such a little space, and to be able to do so interactively 15:51:34 Just in case you didn't know it, BASIC fits the same space. :) 15:51:37 the only thing missing in GNU Forth is an easy way to do GUI bindings. otherwise I'd be doing a LOT more programming. 15:51:40 and yes, Chuck Moore may be exceptionally eccentric, and yes, he's DEFINITELY in his own world when it comes to chip design, I'm willing to dive in head first to see if his ideas ultimately will allow me to produce better combinations of the hardware and software that I want, on my own terms. 15:51:41 With human syntax. 15:51:45 ugh. BASIC 15:52:17 I mean... there are worse languages out there 15:52:24 but BASIC is no longer my first choice. 15:52:36 BASIC had its purpose, it got me started 15:53:09 what I miss are the days when hardware came with a BASIC interpreter 15:53:10 I will forever hold a debt to Atari BASIC for pushing me into this crazy world of being able to create software. 15:53:15 I suspect that one could implement Lua there as well, it is not that complex. 15:53:17 tschak_: same 15:53:26 anyway 15:53:32 You could run Pascal on Z80. 15:53:52 prior to about... 1985 or so(?), using a computer usually meant knowing how to program it 15:53:52 I ran UCSD Pascal on a Z80 and on a 6502, yeah.. I know. 15:54:29 it was...functional...but it didn't have the same a-ha neat factor that I got from other languages/environments 15:54:33 these days, you're expected to open your wallet instead of your text editor/IDE 15:54:39 yes 15:54:40 And prior to that it meant knowing how to solder it. 15:54:56 I could probably solder a computer if needed 15:56:04 The question arises, do you mean that you should be able to create everything you use from raw stuff? 15:56:33 i don't think it's a requirement, but I do like having the option if I ineed it. 15:56:42 i have, in a few cases. 15:57:29 my most recent being intelligent controlled light switches.... not fun when you are trying to make an intelligent light switch, and .... it has to wait for Windows to boot 15:57:30 :P :) 15:58:26 You know what? 15:58:35 In theory, theory and practice don't differ. 15:58:39 In practice, they are. 15:59:11 You can try learning how to build houses like the one you live in, 15:59:21 and it will take you a while. 15:59:37 it's one of the reasons I am looking at the GA144 so hard, if I can make domotics hardware that can run at _very_ low voltages...my research will be that much farther along. 16:00:16 funny you should use that analogy, I do domotics research. 16:00:20 I doubt it is cost-effective if you consider time to program it. 16:00:27 But you're free to prove otherwise. 16:01:00 it's a totally new playing field, of course it's going to tkae time just figuring out HOW to effectively program it 16:01:06 tschak_: I would never make a light switch that relied on Windows. never ever ever. 16:01:17 it's the same damned argument that Chuck Peddle kept running into with the 6502 16:01:27 "Why would I re-base my design on a 6502, when I can quickly make it in TTL logic?" 16:01:45 he ran into this argument constantly 16:02:12 people are afraid to learn something new, especially when the time meant learning it may be quite long 16:02:26 and yes, it may be a dud, but for me, as a research scientist, it's the journey that's important. 16:02:44 so I do not share your blatant cynicism 16:02:52 at all. 16:03:34 Estimating costs is still researcher's job. 16:03:46 you're confusing research with development. 16:03:56 people still do pure research. 16:04:00 believe it or not. 16:04:37 No, I don't confuse it. 16:04:47 it's guys like ME, that give guys like YOU a clear path to work on 16:04:57 we take the hits 16:05:08 so you don't have to. 16:05:19 If it is "pure research" it is not in "domotics", it is more like in a cognitive science. 16:05:45 you can do pure research in ANY field. 16:05:52 now you're just clutching at straws. 16:06:25 I've been working in this field, out of my own pocket, developing solutions now for 15 years. 16:06:58 I've spent the last 10, helping make the most advanced smart home system ever designed, http://www.linuxmce.org/ 16:07:48 it's out there, it works, people are using it, and even though the company that i helped spawn, to make the damn thing is long gone, I STILL WORK ON IT, because I want it to exist. 16:09:39 my attraction to alternative programming methodologies is a direct reaction to the fact that we amassed over 4 million lines of our own code, not counting the 12 other open source project we approrpiate 16:10:56 --- quit: tschak_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:11:19 --- join: tschak_ (~tschak@pool-96-226-11-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:11:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +v tschak_ 16:11:28 damn wifi 16:13:32 i'm done talking. 16:17:45 * DocPlatypus applauds 16:18:04 and the Academy award for best monologue on Freenode #forth goes to: tschak_ 16:28:36 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:31:01 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 16:31:01 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty- 16:31:01 I'd say that there're more effective ways to improve code reuse than rewriting everything in some obscure language. 16:31:21 For instance, there're composable ways to failures. 16:31:31 to handle failures. 17:15:10 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 17:16:51 --- join: MrBusiness (~MrBusines@184.99.7.19) joined #forth 17:16:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MrBusiness 17:27:10 i didnt know forth was obscure 17:33:55 that is a problem that can be easily solved by not driving out everyone that comes here asking about forth :) 17:43:34 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@61.184.206.218) joined #forth 17:43:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 20:15:51 Kumul: thank you 20:30:06 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:43:54 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@108-75-59-67.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 20:43:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v DocPlatypus 22:13:03 --- quit: Kumul (Quit: gone) 22:36:49 --- quit: remyhr (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:35:56 --- join: remyhr (~remy@pob78-1-82-238-158-96.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 23:35:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v remyhr 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.03.21