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07:38:45 <frunobulax> Any Forth for TI's F28069 Piccolo controlSTICK yet?
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13:04:02 <Guest5850> I need a little help with Isforth
13:43:20 <I440r> hi\
13:43:30 <I440r> what seems to be the issue?
13:50:44 <Guest5850> I can compile and extend but when I try to execute I get this:
13:50:56 <Guest5850> Unknown TERM: /usr/share/terminfo/x/xterm
13:50:57 <Guest5850> Au Revoir!
13:51:18 <Guest5850> Distro is Ubuntu
13:51:42 <I440r> yea is this adrian blake?
13:51:58 <I440r> i just sent a reply to someone called adrian blake on exactly this subject :)
13:52:29 <I440r> the problem is that debian based systems are not in line with the FHS.  the fix in isforth is simple though
13:58:54 <Guest5850> yes this is Adrian
13:59:05 <I440r> yea i saw your /whois giving your real name
13:59:14 <I440r> u get the reply? able to fix?
14:04:02 <Guest5850> Thanks for the fix ... implememted
14:04:08 <I440r> awesome
14:04:31 <I440r> its the debian people you can blame, they are not following the FHS at all
14:04:34 <Guest5850> it is just for my own education.
14:04:49 <I440r> ever work with forth before?
14:05:35 <Guest5850> I played with is forth several years ago and I have an old e-mail address for you which did not work.
14:05:50 <I440r> yea i thought i remembered your name heh
14:06:15 <I440r> the mailcity email got deleted by lycos when i told them BLUE text on a BLUE background is stupid
14:06:21 <I440r> their login button was blue on blue
14:06:36 <I440r> they didnt like being called stupid so they deleted my account
14:08:17 <Guest5850> I understand. I have a similar problem with my bank's online banking system. At one point you must work from right to left not the natural left to right.
14:08:49 <I440r> lol
14:09:06 <ASau> FHS is broken by design.
14:09:15 <I440r> at least they wont delete your account if you tell them they are stupid
14:09:35 <I440r> no. the fhs is the fix. but your always negative and anti so your opinion hardly matters
14:09:54 <ASau> You have API functions to get terminal capabilities.
14:10:06 <I440r> i do?
14:10:07 <ASau> And you should use those instead of kewl hacks.
14:10:27 <ASau> getcap(3)
14:10:40 <I440r> api's that are so full of bullshit duct tape code to fix breakages in every terminal out there
14:10:53 <I440r> thers not a signle term in existence taht publishes a 100% correct terminfo
14:11:05 <ASau> That's not the reason to break rules.
14:11:12 <ASau> You broke rules, hence the bug.
14:11:20 <I440r> so in order for ncurses to maintain a standard interface the developer of it has to add shitloads of hardcoded shit
14:11:26 <I440r> i didnt break rules
14:11:45 <I440r> i simply refused to add duct tape code to fix someone elses breakage
14:11:53 <ASau> getcap(3) reaches correct database when you use it.
14:12:09 <I440r> good for it
14:13:16 <I440r> and getcap (3) is probably hacked on by every distro there is to make IT know where THEY put their terminfo database
14:13:28 <I440r> so its ok for THEM to hack but bad if i do it
14:13:28 <I440r> ya
14:13:31 <I440r> ur sharp
14:13:50 <ASau> It's standard interface.
14:14:00 <I440r> so is the FHS
14:14:02 <I440r> you lose
14:14:04 <ASau> FHS isn't.
14:14:21 <ASau> FHS applies only to few l00n1x distributions.
14:21:46 <I440r> Most Linux distributions follow the FHS and declare it their own policy to maintain FHS compliance.[2][3][4][5]
14:22:06 <I440r> that sounds like your the l00n to me
14:23:25 <ASau> One particular l00n1x may not follow the stupid standard to the word.
14:23:51 <ASau> Termcap, curses, and terminfo have its own API to work with terminals.
14:24:22 <ASau> If you override it and use their internal databases directly, you may get unspecified result.
14:24:23 <I440r> termcap is deprecated by terminfo. both are seriously broken
14:24:41 <I440r> and termcap is NOT something developed by ncurses developers
14:24:44 <I440r> it was taken over by them
14:24:52 <I440r> but it was originall implemented as part of vi
14:27:06 <ASau> I know the history, thanks.
14:27:59 <ASau> Even if the whole tty paradigm is flawed that's not the reason to violate rules.
14:29:10 <I440r> show me where those rules are written
14:29:26 <I440r> show me where it says "thou shalt use libncurses"
14:30:43 <ASau> Even if there's no authority forbidding shooting at your neighbours, do you regularly fire at them?
14:31:13 <I440r> your arguement just turned from stupid to moronic
14:31:41 <ASau> Yeah, everything I told is stupid and moronic by your opinion.
14:31:53 <I440r> pretty much
14:31:57 <ASau> You're the only sane person around, yeah.
14:33:40 <I440r> thats not your arguement/ your argumenet is that anyone using forth is a dumbass. your sole purpose for being here is to be a nay sayer against forth
14:33:41 <I440r> period
14:33:56 <ASau> You must be British/U.S.A. style lawyer, if you need all rules be written by some authority.
14:34:16 <I440r> your saying its is a rule doesnt make it a rule
14:34:26 <I440r> your saying FHS is not a standard does not make it not a standard
14:36:35 <ASau> FHS is standard in the sense that there're some weenies
14:36:35 <ASau> who decided to write a standard and just did that because they could.
14:36:56 <I440r> yea. bsd weenies
14:37:06 <ASau> That their standard doesn't support separation of architecture-independent data is nothing. :)
14:37:31 <I440r> err you OBVIOUSLy read it reeeel good eh
14:37:35 <ASau> Of course, this standard is ignored when it is pointless.
14:39:10 <ASau> terminfo provides API to access terminal capabilities,
14:39:35 <ASau> if you prefer to mess with its database directly,
14:39:35 <ASau> you should implement it correctly.
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15:10:41 <I440r> by correctly you mean YOUR idea of correctness
15:37:04 <ASau> If I decide to store terminfo database in some more effective way like SQLite, what are you going to do?
15:37:14 <ASau> Blame me for not complying to FHS standard?
15:38:01 <ASau> Any sane C or C++ program won't ever notice that database format has changed.
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15:55:04 <ASau> In fact, any sane program won't notice that.
15:55:04 <ASau> One has to search hard to find another programming language
15:55:04 <ASau> with strong attitude against reusing system API via FFI
15:55:04 <ASau> or other similar mechanism.
16:17:55 <I440r> no ill write an sqlite extension
16:18:02 <I440r> thats NOT the priblem duh
16:20:08 <I440r> if i can write a terminfo parser within 10 hours of first reding man 5 terminfo im pretty sure i could write a squlte extension
16:25:57 <ASau> That's the main point.
16:26:23 <ASau> If you were using API rather than attepmting to rewrite terminfo,
16:26:33 <ASau> your software would work right out of the box.
16:28:52 <ASau> Without relying on such things like format of internal database and location of this database.
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16:43:19 <tschak__> afternoon. :)
16:43:23 --- nick: tschak__ -> TSCHAK
16:54:56 <I440r> hi
16:55:12 <I440r> asau thinks nobodyu should ever develop anything new
16:55:20 <I440r> we shud all just use the same shit over and over
16:55:50 <TSCHAK> we should try to make new things
16:55:56 <TSCHAK> however, we often don't make new things
16:55:59 <TSCHAK> just things new to us
16:56:30 <I440r> never try to implement anything ourselves because like him were all too dumb to do it
16:56:42 <TSCHAK> and now that i've gone all dime store philosophical now, i'll go jump out a window
16:56:43 <TSCHAK> ;)
16:57:19 <TSCHAK> i made a new set of videos... youtube has a 15 min limit on my account, so i had to split into 4
16:58:27 <TSCHAK> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnbN8fEOp4g&list=PL709B28D4D95CCD13&index=7&feature=plpp_video <-- first one in the set, should play the rest too.
17:00:53 * TSCHAK is trying to implement a bit reversal word
17:01:11 * TSCHAK banging head against wall
17:04:35 <ASau> Unlike you I don't consider yet another terminfo implementation "new".
17:04:52 <ASau> (Putting aside that that implementation may broken one.)
17:05:25 <TSCHAK> why does any of it matter?
17:07:37 <ASau> 0 #bits 0 ?do 1 lshift over 1 and or  swap 1 rshift swap loop
17:07:43 <ASau> nip
17:07:51 <ASau> Something like that.
17:09:41 <TSCHAK> thanks.
17:09:47 * TSCHAK translates that to fig forth.
17:09:59 <ASau> Forth is cool language, you can waste so many time on elementary things. :)
17:10:15 <ASau> Oh, no.
17:10:27 <ASau> Another fig-Forth fan.
17:10:35 <TSCHAK> oh no, another smart ass asshole.
17:10:40 <ASau> Bury the dead.
17:10:43 * TSCHAK ignores ASau
17:14:00 <I440r> fig forth is way better than ans forth
17:14:20 <I440r> asau is just a permanantly negative nay sayer
17:14:24 <I440r> on everything in here
17:14:30 <I440r> he is a hater
17:15:07 <TSCHAK> I don't care btw the two.. I am using fig forth on the Atari because that's what I have, and the environment suits what i am trying to do
17:15:24 <TSCHAK> as for the menial stuff in forth, it's forcing me to become a better programmer
17:15:33 <I440r> yes
17:16:03 <I440r> not forcing
17:16:05 <I440r> teaching
17:16:53 <TSCHAK> yeah
17:17:25 <TSCHAK> my goal with this fig forth is to make a forth that's suitable for making atari 8-bit games...real ones.
17:17:46 <TSCHAK> and write a set of words to act as tools to be able to do all the development modelessly
17:18:06 <I440r> :)
17:18:07 <TSCHAK> i finished the antic assembler and disassembler, and am now making a tile (character set) editor
17:18:23 <ASau> Telling that Forth makes you a better programmer is like
17:18:23 <ASau> telling that spading soil makes you better excavator designer.
17:18:28 <I440r> and thats obviously a pointless waste of tiem because forth AND atari are dead
17:18:31 <I440r> just ask asau
17:18:44 <TSCHAK> I'm taking what i learn here
17:18:53 <TSCHAK> and bringing it into modern things that I do too
17:18:56 <I440r> TSCHAK, ignore everything asau says
17:18:59 <I440r> he is just a hater
17:19:20 <TSCHAK> i put him on /ignore
17:19:46 <I440r> im srsly thinking of /banning him but i hate doing that
17:20:42 <ASau> Oh! Last resort of incompetence... :D
17:20:51 <I440r> no
17:21:18 <I440r> someone thats hating everyone the way you do and telling everyone what they are doing is donkey shit has NO place in this channel
17:21:33 <I440r> but at the same time everyone has a right to express their wrong headed opinion
17:22:04 <TSCHAK> AMEEERIIIKUUHHHHH!
17:22:10 <TSCHAK> ;)
17:23:10 <I440r> the bill of no rights puts it beautiflly
17:23:18 <I440r> you dont have the right to not be offended :)
17:24:12 <ASau> Better go and write anything worth noting.
17:24:27 <ASau> So far you have told that you reinvented terminfo instead of reusing it.
17:24:28 <I440r> and you would be a world class expert at that
17:26:49 <ASau> Perhaps not, yet I don't spend time reinventing wheels. :)
17:27:42 <I440r> even if the existing wheel is square
17:27:44 <I440r> right
17:29:36 <TSCHAK> don't feed the troll. ;)
17:29:44 <ASau> Making it triangle doesn't fix it at all. :D
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19:32:46 <Kumul> god, why would you make a terminfo sql database
19:56:37 <DocPlatypus> Kumul: boredom?
19:57:08 <Kumul> i make stuff out of boredom but it just scares me
19:57:36 <Kumul> the way linux is going, it wouldnt surprise me if they did this
19:58:02 <DocPlatypus> Linux the kernel, or GNU/Linux?
19:58:24 <DocPlatypus> I'd think it'd be part of the GNU variant running under the kernel, than the kernel itself
20:00:57 <Kumul> the community
20:04:22 <Kumul> im rating, pay no attention
20:04:33 <Kumul> s/rating/angry
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21:24:36 <TSCHAK> every time i deviate from "simple" in forth, i get bit
21:24:37 <TSCHAK> :P
21:24:43 <TSCHAK> solution always turns out to be simple
21:24:57 <TSCHAK> aka "You're thinking too fucking hard, STOP IT."
21:30:09 <ttmrichter> TSCHAK: That's one of the virtues of Forth.  It slaps you in the face hard when you're not looking for simplicity.
21:30:36 <TSCHAK> yeah. it's one of the reasons i'm liking it so much
21:31:06 <ttmrichter> It's also a programmer amplifier.
21:31:11 <TSCHAK> yeah.
21:31:13 <ttmrichter> If you're a good programmer, you can write GREAT programs.
21:31:18 <ttmrichter> If you're a bad programmer…
21:31:37 * TSCHAK genuinely tries to be a good programmer.
21:32:31 <TSCHAK> I make myself write a lot of simple words, and deliberately try not to...for lack of a better term, try not to make a word bigger than I can chew.
21:32:51 <TSCHAK> (yeah, there are better terms, but i think that gets the point across)
21:33:23 <TSCHAK> I came to FORTH after hearing about it for 20 some odd years, especially during my atari 8-bit days
21:33:40 <TSCHAK> and now that i've come full circle back to it for fun, I decided to try it, and...wow.
21:34:28 <ttmrichter> Ah.  I picked up Forth because of the old Byte Books "Threaded Interpeted Languages" book.
21:34:31 <ttmrichter> I loved it on sight.
21:35:54 <TSCHAK> i love that it's just so modeless... i need some assembler, i just assemble some instructions.. I need my tool to create a character set, i use my tile vocabulary... I need to make an ANTIC display list? I use my antic vocabulary, etc.
21:36:28 <TSCHAK> and that really is my goal, just to make a set of vocabularies that I can use to write games or graphic demos, and be able to flow between the different parts of design and coding without having to load different programs etc
21:36:48 * TSCHAK is using a very plain ported fig-FORTH for this purpose
21:36:59 * ttmrichter also prefers the older Forths.
21:37:16 <ttmrichter> FIG-Forth or Forth-...83 was it?
21:37:19 <TSCHAK> (it literally is ragsdale's forth, with the core I/O words talking to the editor.)
21:37:23 <TSCHAK> yeah, 83
21:37:41 <TSCHAK> this is fig-FORTH so basically FORTH-79 ... when it was still <BUILDS, DOES> ...
21:37:46 <ttmrichter> I'm increasingly of the opinion that standardizing Forth was a mistake.
21:37:48 <TSCHAK> (ignore the comma)
21:38:01 <TSCHAK> well, see that very thought really is silly
21:38:14 <TSCHAK> how can you standardize a language
21:38:19 <TSCHAK> well, an environment
21:38:29 <ttmrichter> Language?  Forth is a language?  :D
21:38:40 <TSCHAK> where the very idea is to make exactly what you need to solve the problem at hand?
21:39:05 <TSCHAK> i try to explain to my friends that things like a standard C library in FORTH is somewhat silly
21:39:09 <TSCHAK> it gets lost on them.
21:39:10 <ttmrichter> I view it as a language foundry, really.
21:39:24 <TSCHAK> yeah, you make vocabularies to solve specific problems
21:39:36 <ttmrichter> It's not so much a language as a toolkit to make an incredibly customized language to do what you need.
21:40:35 <TSCHAK> I mean, I made a vocabulary for making ANTIC display lists (the Atari had a processor called ANTIC which built the display, and you can literally do different graphics modes on each scan line, it reads this info from any area in system memory)
21:40:51 <TSCHAK> normally, in assemblers etc, I would have to make blobs of hex bytes
21:40:58 <TSCHAK> 70 70 70 42 40 BC ....
21:41:23 <TSCHAK> or I would have to make insanely messy assembler macros that have no real dynamism
21:41:39 <TSCHAK> so now I can just do:
21:41:51 <TSCHAK> ANTIC  DISPLAY-LIST  INGAME
21:41:59 <TSCHAK>    8-BLANK, 3 LINES
21:42:23 <TSCHAK>    ' SCORE  MODE6-LMS, 
21:42:24 <TSCHAK>    ...
21:42:42 <TSCHAK>    JVB,   ( jump to beginning after vertical blank )
21:42:42 <TSCHAK> etc.
21:43:24 <TSCHAK> and it just makes it for me. Once I figured out how <BUILDS, DOES> worked, I wrote the assembler in about an hour.
21:43:42 <TSCHAK> (I keep putting the damned comma there for some OCD reason grrr) :P
21:44:13 <TSCHAK> the antic disassembler was a similar affair
21:44:37 <TSCHAK> now I am writing a tile editor so i can draw custom character sets, and look at them quickly
21:45:32 <TSCHAK> and when it's all said and done, I can save everything and turnkey right into it.
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