00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.03.11
00:02:21 <tschak> DocPlatypus, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FH2P-z2VVY&feature=youtu.be
00:03:12 <DocPlatypus> what is this?
00:04:15 <DocPlatypus> ah
00:04:29 <DocPlatypus> will watch later, a bit occupied right now
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09:12:20 <spahn> hi 
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09:30:39 <spahn> um
09:31:05 <spahn> why is there a maximum order for 10 10-packs for GreenArray 144?
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09:40:38 <tschak> is anyone using the GreenArrays stuff?
09:41:03 <tschak> the one thing really missing from their site, is a set of example solutions that can be made with the system
09:41:37 <tschak> do I treat it as a form of FPGA/CPLD? do I treat it like a specialized CPU?
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09:45:37 <spahn> nope, i take it you have to dig through their documentation for that
09:46:10 <spahn> also, I don't know about others, but i'd rather not blow $200-$450 just to try something out
09:46:41 <spahn> whereas with a DSP or an FPGA I can spend $20 for a device and make a board myself, and boom im in business
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10:00:07 <tschak> the IDEA of what they're doing is fantastic
10:00:24 <tschak> but I have NO idea of what they're expecting people to make with it
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10:31:03 <spahn> i have no idea either
10:31:23 <spahn> but it sounds liike the old transputing concept
10:34:00 <spahn> or tilera
10:35:15 <spahn> i don't know what good it would do to have many elements, becuase eventually you will want some data to compute on node that is far away on the die
10:35:44 <spahn> so you have to take penalty of using communication
10:38:06 <spahn> so basically your algorithms that you can implement best on this will be computationally intensive, and memory bound 
10:38:16 <spahn> but that is the same story for standard DSPs!
10:38:34 <spahn> and they are cheaper, and programming on them is more familiar 
10:38:57 <spahn> this just seems like needlessly reinventing the wheel (cool new square shape!) 
10:40:59 <spahn> not to mention, with this dataflow model, you will have the complexity of managing use of all the nodes in a harmonious, efficient way
10:41:02 <spahn> yeowch
10:41:44 <spahn> if you don't do it **JUST SO** then you end up with nodes not being used here and there
10:42:20 <spahn> adn when i mean just so, I mean finding that optimzation is much more algorithmically complex than doing it on more traditional hardware
10:42:33 <tschak> i'll reserve judgement on that
10:42:55 <tschak> i'm always looking for more efficient ways to do things
10:42:57 <spahn> its the difference between juggling three teddy bears and juggling 73 razor sharp balisongs
10:43:09 <tschak> even if it means I have to bend my brain in weird ways
10:43:12 <spahn> well that's what im saying
10:43:12 <tschak> it's why I like FORTH
10:43:18 <spahn> it could be a fools bargain
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10:43:38 <spahn> you could end up having ot do "weirdness" at an exponential rate
10:43:55 <tschak> yeah, but i've seen that across the board no matter what I wind up using.
10:43:57 <tschak> :)
10:44:10 <spahn> youre doing it wrong then
10:44:20 <tschak> spoken like a true academic.
10:44:33 <tschak> what I mean is...
10:45:10 <tschak> in the end, no matter how great something theoretically is, there is always weirdness when you go outside of the realm that the engineer designing said part intended.
10:45:41 <tschak> i'm a big believer in using the right tool for the job
10:46:42 <tschak> and for me, FORTH is sort of one big tool erector set, in the end you have vocabularies to describe a problem... Chuck ultimately has tried to bring this into the realm of hardware design, and given FORTH's unusual _everything_ .... I'm wondering where things begin and end on his hardware.
10:47:16 <tschak> what is he envisioning these chips being used in?
10:47:27 <tschak> just as a starting point
10:47:29 <tschak> any starting point
10:48:22 <tschak> this is especially more confusing to me, because I am very new to the FORTH space. I'm learning this on a whim
10:48:34 <tschak> and I LOOOVE learning new environments, languages, perspectives
10:48:56 <tschak> and...it has gotten me some interesting contracts in the past (doing stuff in Erlang, for example)
10:49:22 <tschak> I just love to make things, and I want to try and make great things.
10:49:58 <tschak> i get this same weird feeling from FORTH, that I get from Smalltalk, and LISP, etc..
10:50:07 <tschak> that I don't get from C, C++, Objective-C, etc...
10:50:27 <tschak> where a single person could realistically build a whole universe of exactly what is needed in short order.
10:50:42 <tschak> the price of it is, you live there alone.
10:51:32 <tschak> I'm GLAD that there are crazy bastards like Chuck Moore out there asking the question, "is there a better way?"
10:52:16 <tschak> because it means ultimately that these crazy ideas will be rediscovered at some point, and maybe fall into general use.
10:53:12 <tschak> one can dream.
10:56:45 <spahn> hm, a whole 20k memory on the whole device
10:56:51 <spahn> woooooooo
10:57:11 <spahn> this thing is taking it back to the 80s in style man
10:57:27 <spahn> transputing, tiny memory, obsolete language
10:57:34 <spahn> 80s are back!
10:58:24 <spahn> I'll stick with $10 tigerSHARCs myself
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13:15:38 <I440r> tathi when u are here any chance u can give me a minor hand :)
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14:36:06 <adasfdasf> can I iterate through the stack without use ROLL?
14:38:52 <I440r> non destructivly ?
14:39:03 <I440r> what data do you have on the stack thats that deep
14:39:12 <I440r> its not recommended tho it is possible
14:40:41 <adasfdasf> yes, non destructivly
14:40:57 <I440r> then you would use pick
14:41:00 <I440r> 1 pick is dup
14:41:02 <I440r> 1 pick is over
14:41:09 <adasfdasf> how can I get or put something at begin of stack ?
14:41:09 <I440r> 3 pick 4 pick 
14:41:15 <I440r> they make copies of the nth stack item
14:41:26 <I440r> how deep is your data?
14:41:36 <adasfdasf> I dont know. I'll use DEPTH
14:41:59 <I440r> its not recommended to try to manipulate anything but the top THREE items of the stack
14:42:03 <I440r> now thats a soft rule tho :)
14:42:14 <adasfdasf> but I'm trying to do a bubble sort
14:42:30 <adasfdasf> this is very hard only using SWAP, 2SWAP, ROT
14:42:46 <I440r> dont bubble sort items on the stack
14:42:58 <adasfdasf> I can work only with this 4th itens on the stack
14:43:01 <adasfdasf> why?
14:43:01 <I440r> create bubble-data 12345 allot \ create a buffer of 12345 bytes length
14:44:36 <adasfdasf> okay, I thought I could do this using the stack
14:44:41 <I440r> because its very complex trying to manipulate that much data on the stack :)
14:45:01 <I440r> you can. its just more complex and subject to memory issues depending on your data size
14:46:20 <adasfdasf> can I put 2 itens into bottom of stack ? 
14:46:51 <I440r> poking something over the top of something else thats already there?
14:47:03 <adasfdasf> yes
14:47:14 <I440r> heres the problem with that
14:47:41 <I440r> by the time your code starts putting data onto the stack you have no idea how many other items are on the stack
14:47:52 <I440r> i.e. you cant assume that when you run your code that the stack is empty
14:48:33 <adasfdasf> but I can use DEPTH
14:49:12 <I440r> still bad mojo. you will also need to know the SIZE of each stack item. is it a grows up or grows down stack?
14:49:26 <I440r> i.e. just because you know the address of the bottom of the stack (sp0 gives this)
14:49:38 <I440r> does not mean you can know the address of the first item of data you place on the stack
14:49:40 <I440r> well you can
14:49:50 <I440r> you can do sp@ prior to pusing any data on the stack
14:49:50 <adasfdasf> I can't iterate itens using SWAP or 2SWAP or ROT to leave the TOS until bottom
14:50:18 <I440r> first of all. how did the data get on the stack
14:50:26 <I440r> have a buffer and a pointer to that buffer
14:50:35 <I440r> create sort-data sort-size allot
14:50:58 <I440r> variable data-ptr  sort-data data-ptr !
14:51:05 <adasfdasf> all itens on the stack has the same value: a cell, isn't ?
14:51:06 <I440r> data-ptr now points to the start of the buffer
14:51:25 <adasfdasf> this must be the same to a pointer: one cell
14:51:26 <I440r> each time you get an unsorted data item do data-ptr !
14:51:35 <I440r> data-ptr @ cell+ data-ptr !
14:51:49 <I440r> yes they have the same size
14:51:56 <I440r> but again. is the stack grows up or grows down
14:52:17 <adasfdasf> the stack grows up
14:52:24 <adasfdasf> how can the stack grows down?
14:53:38 <I440r> most stacks are grows down
14:53:44 <I440r> 6502 is a grows down stack
14:53:50 <I440r> i believe x86 is also grows down
14:54:19 <I440r> erm maybe x86 is grows up i forget now lol
14:54:56 <I440r> howver. even knowing this it is not recommended to manipulate any more than 3 items on the stack
14:55:24 <adasfdasf> I think we are missing the point here. My question is so basic and doesn't envolves memory management (I think). This is just stack manipulation using FORTH's system.
14:56:04 <adasfdasf> can I rotate a value until the begin of stack? 
14:56:13 <adasfdasf> even using BEGIN / UNTIL loop
14:56:13 <I440r> right. its an academic exercise to learn HOW to manipulate stack
14:56:21 <adasfdasf> yes
14:56:41 <adasfdasf> I know I'll use variables to do it right in the future :)
14:57:26 <I440r> ok. but this is a bad exercise to do for someone trying to learn lol. even for me i would have to think VERY VERY carefully how to accomplish this :)
14:58:03 <I440r> it would actually require some very VERY clever code
14:58:12 <I440r> that would be very squirly even for me to create lol
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15:00:12 <adasfdasf> ok, no problem, I'll find some fun exercise than bubble :(
15:00:16 <I440r> have a variable that points to bottom item of data. you can the do a pick operation to copy it
15:00:26 <I440r> another pick operation to copy top item
15:00:30 <I440r> compare and swap
15:01:03 <I440r> but N pick to collect the Nth (bottom) item would leave a copy of that item at top of stack
15:01:25 <I440r> so to compare top item would need a over =
15:01:32 <I440r> if erm over < if N roll
15:01:42 <I440r> then decrement N
15:01:53 <I440r> but i think this algoritm is also broken
15:01:59 <I440r> i dont think im expressing it roght
15:02:00 <I440r> right
15:02:17 <adasfdasf> DEPTH 1 - PICK
15:02:31 <I440r> with a bubble sort you do a sort and if you had to swap any data you must start the sort over again
15:02:32 <adasfdasf> jonesforth haven't ROLL word
15:02:48 <I440r> and keep redoing the sort till you dont have to do any more swaps
15:02:54 <adasfdasf> yes
15:02:54 <I440r> yea. erm. you cant do this without roll
15:03:34 <adasfdasf> how can a FORTH be done without ROLL ?
15:04:22 <I440r> because pick and roll are very strongly discouraged
15:05:19 <I440r> do a bubble sort but have the data in a buffer and have your pointers to the items being compared on the stack
15:05:35 <adasfdasf> fine, this is the right way
15:05:45 <adasfdasf> so I need to learn about storage first
15:05:56 <I440r> even doing it this way the stack manipulation required will be failry advanced for a beginner
15:06:08 <I440r> thus you dont lose the entire purpose for the exercise :)))
15:07:14 <I440r> @ and ! are fetchand store
15:07:39 <I440r> foo @  gets contents of data at address foo
15:07:46 <I440r> 123 foo !
15:07:53 <I440r> stores 123 at address foo
15:09:09 <adasfdasf> if is ROLL strongly discouraged, the stack cannot be iterated unless their values were consumed.
15:09:31 <I440r> ok hers how i would do it
15:09:38 <I440r> lest say you know you have 10 items on the stack
15:09:57 <I440r> buffer  10 0 do tuck ! cell+ loop
15:10:05 <I440r> that would store the 10 items on the stack into the buffer
15:10:23 <I440r> you would need a drop after loop
15:10:35 <I440r> so buffer #items 0 do tuck ! cell+ loop drop 
15:10:46 <I440r> that would transfer all the unsored data off the stack into the buffer
15:10:51 <I440r> assuming the buffer was big enough
15:11:46 <I440r> i would also VERY strongly encourage you to use isforth to learn on not jonesforth
15:11:52 <I440r> tho i am biased of course
15:12:54 <adasfdasf> ok
15:13:07 <adasfdasf> I'm using both
15:13:12 <adasfdasf> with gforth on windows
15:14:37 <adasfdasf> in isforth words are always lowercase and the stack appears to be reverse
15:15:44 <adasfdasf> let me ask a pathetic question
15:16:00 <I440r> there is no such thing :)
15:16:12 <I440r> in isforth words are always lowe case
15:16:22 <I440r> ALL UPPER CASE TEXT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO READ
15:16:49 <I440r> yea x86 IS a grows down architecture
15:16:54 <I440r> push stores then decrements
15:16:58 <I440r> pop increments then fetches
15:17:09 <I440r> arm can be either
15:17:19 <adasfdasf> no problem
15:17:20 <adasfdasf> if I create my own FORTH above Microsoft CLR, can this FORTH take advantage of .NET resources and windows?
15:17:44 <I440r> you would have to write the forign function interface for forth
15:17:48 <I440r> other than that yes it can
15:17:59 <adasfdasf> are there something like that?
15:18:04 <I440r> not that i know of
15:18:16 <I440r> though some forths have a C ffi
15:18:27 <adasfdasf> or asm
15:18:55 <I440r> asm is not a forign function in forth
15:19:01 <I440r> forht and asm are both parts of forth
15:19:10 <I440r> c functions are forign to forth so you would need an interface
15:20:13 <adasfdasf> do you know if CLR has assembly ?
15:20:19 <I440r> what is clr
15:20:41 <adasfdasf> common language runtime
15:20:48 <adasfdasf> of .net
15:21:07 <I440r> oh. then i have no idea, i have no knowledge of .net or how it works
15:21:21 <adasfdasf> no problem
15:21:21 <I440r> other than ms created it because sun slapped their hands for trying to mess with java
15:23:57 <adasfdasf> learn forth is like to relearn programming
15:24:26 <adasfdasf> all fuck'n language are the same when I learn forth
15:24:27 <I440r> yes it is
15:24:45 <I440r> thers a steep learning curve for forth to begin with
15:24:57 <I440r> it drives people away
15:25:26 <I440r> its a major shift in the way you program AND think
15:26:52 <adasfdasf> even AT&T assembly of jonesforth, to me who doesn't know assembly, is easier to read today than forth language
15:29:19 <I440r> heh
15:29:28 <I440r> isforth is written in nasm assembly
15:29:43 <I440r> thats far easier to read than any at&t abomination :)
15:29:53 <I440r> plus i have pick and roll :P
15:30:08 <I440r> brb, making coffee
15:32:27 <I440r> back
15:32:52 <I440r> i roast my own coffee and im only roasting enough for one week at a time and only grinding enough for one pot at a time
15:33:02 <I440r> 1 week after roasting the beans are stale
15:33:10 <I440r> 3 or 4 minutes after grinding they are stale
15:45:17 <adasfdasf> I like homemade coffe
15:45:38 <adasfdasf> where is S" file.f" INCLUDED in isforth?
15:46:37 <I440r> well isforth does not have S"  or s" :)
15:46:47 <I440r> if you have a file called file.f  do
15:46:49 <I440r> fload file.f
15:46:57 <I440r> or fload path/to/file.f
15:47:13 <I440r> isforth does not use INCLUDE.. it uses fload (file load)
15:47:26 <I440r> i may change fload to "include" because "fload" is a floating point opcode
15:48:04 <adasfdasf> ok, can file.f have line breaks ?
15:51:09 <adasfdasf> see turned 80 into $50, what is it?
15:51:34 <I440r> line breaks need to be linux line breaks
15:51:39 <I440r> and tabs might not work any more
15:51:46 <I440r> if u have any in there convert them to spaces
15:51:47 <adasfdasf> hex
15:52:02 <I440r> i think i noticed an issue with that (i will fix eventually)
15:52:05 <adasfdasf> very strict
15:52:12 <I440r> yes hex numbers are not 0x123  but $xx
15:52:17 <I440r> binary are %1010101
15:52:21 <I440r> and octal are \777
15:52:54 <I440r> not strict. i should allow tabs but i think the code that makes them the same as a space is b0rked
15:53:06 <I440r> as for line endings.. 0a not 0d0a, this is linux :)
15:54:03 <adasfdasf> I ran dos2unix in my file.f, but I've a line break after word definition, like : THISWORD \n DOSOMETHING ;
15:54:50 <I440r> this is fine
15:54:54 <I440r> you should even be able to do
15:54:55 <I440r> :
15:54:55 <I440r> foo
15:54:56 <I440r> 100
15:54:57 <I440r> 0
15:54:58 <I440r> do
15:54:59 <I440r> i
15:55:00 <I440r> .
15:55:01 <I440r> loop
15:55:03 <I440r> ;
15:55:05 <I440r> tho... maybe not
15:55:15 <I440r> might not be alble to have : and the word name on separate lines
15:55:19 <I440r> everything else can be line broken
15:55:40 <adasfdasf> yes, I got \t in code
15:55:44 <I440r> and i just posted a bug report to the linux kernel developers mailing list
15:55:55 <I440r> oh. isforth doesnt parse \t into 0x09
15:57:15 <adasfdasf> so it appears to be not so easy to use the same source in two forth
15:57:23 <adasfdasf> like isforth and gforth
15:57:40 <I440r> nope
15:58:02 <I440r> i would say in THIS case its a deficiency with isforth other than the \t thing
15:58:17 <I440r> isforth does not have s" or evaluate which gforth has both
15:58:25 <I440r> i also dont have postpone or invert
15:58:38 <I440r> i REFUSE to support  postpone OR invert
15:58:46 <I440r> use NOT, not invert
15:58:53 <I440r> ans standard says to use invert not not
16:03:35 <adasfdasf> heh, isforth doesn't follow the ANS
16:05:55 <I440r> corret
16:05:57 <I440r> correct
16:06:05 <I440r> in fact i avoid ans compliance like a PLAGUE
16:06:20 <I440r> "the ans forth standard does not describe the forth language but a language of the same name"
16:06:22 <I440r> chuck moore
16:07:32 <adasfdasf> it is the same in C++
16:07:43 <I440r> to be fair the, cm would probably say the same of isforth
16:08:08 <I440r> not strictly speaking true
16:08:22 <I440r> try compiling c99 code in a pre c99 compiler
16:08:52 <adasfdasf> the standard could not define the standard extension for header files, so today the standard headers haven't extension, 
16:09:27 <adasfdasf> while you NEED extension in OS like windows, you'll use #include <cstring> or <iostream>
16:09:45 <adasfdasf> while using "yourfile.h"
16:09:53 <adasfdasf> or hpp
16:09:57 <adasfdasf> or hxx
16:10:40 <adasfdasf> but FORTH differs so much, in C you can deal with this using macros
16:10:57 <I440r> in forth you can too
16:11:09 <I440r> you can add "invert" to isforth 
16:11:12 <I440r> etc etc
16:11:27 <adasfdasf> extending 
16:11:32 <adasfdasf> : 2DUP 2dup ;
16:13:30 <I440r> or you can make isforth ignore case
16:13:52 <I440r> but that would mean : 2dup blah blah ;  followed by 2DUP foo foo ; would not work as expected
16:16:26 <adasfdasf> Common Intermediate Language (CIL) is the name of assembly of CLR of .NET
16:17:13 <adasfdasf> it should be nice to build a forth on top of this :)
16:17:32 <I440r> it would be possible if you knew CIL and forth well :)
16:21:26 <adasfdasf> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ashleyf/archive/2012/01/07/introducing-the-cult-of-the-bound-variable-to-the-cult-of-forth.aspx
16:21:31 <adasfdasf> very strange
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16:24:36 <adasfdasf> I440r if you hates C++ you need to know what "C++/CLI" is
16:26:28 <I440r> u ever hear that charie brown joke about "i love mankind, its just people i cant stand" ???
16:26:30 <I440r> i dont hate c
16:26:33 <I440r> its c coders i ant stand
16:26:35 <I440r> cant
16:27:33 <adasfdasf> but I think you will hate C++/CLI
16:28:09 <adasfdasf> this is an extension of C++ to support .net types
16:28:10 <adasfdasf> array<String^> ^arr = gcnew array<String^>(10);
16:28:13 <adasfdasf> look
16:29:01 <I440r> totally unreadable clusterfuck lol
16:33:58 <tschak> for me, all languages have their strengths and weaknesses...
16:34:20 <tschak> iit's the combination of immediacy and intimacy that I like in FORTH.
16:35:18 <tschak> when I saw FORTH for the first time, I got what was going on...to me it literally feels like an interpreted assembler for a stack machine.
16:35:38 <I440r> :)
16:35:59 <I440r> some ppl just FEEL forth right off
16:36:04 <tschak> and it was the whole thing of "make a vocabulary to describe your problem" that I liked
16:36:13 <tschak> I love pretty much every language i've touched
16:36:28 <tschak> each one gives me a new perspective
16:36:33 <I440r> c++ has very kludgy and complex name spaces for this
16:36:45 <tschak> C++ is one big ass kludge to begin with
16:37:36 <I440r> badly implemented kludge
16:38:24 <adasfdasf> "make a vocabulary to describe your problem" this is nice
16:38:37 <tschak> I much prefer Objective-C for OO C
16:38:48 <I440r> vocabulary foo \ create new vocab for my application
16:38:59 <I440r> foo definitins  \ make all new forth definitions compile into new voc
16:39:00 <tschak> that IS forth in a nutshell
16:39:02 <tschak> it is WHAT you do
16:39:45 <tschak> and it is a very solid concept. If you can't think of the words to describe your problem, you're fucked, and have no business trying to solve it
16:41:48 <I440r> tschak, well no thats not totally accurate
16:41:53 <I440r> not for a beginner
16:42:06 <tschak> ok, true.
16:42:06 <I440r> you have to learn what exists in the language and how to use it 
16:42:11 <tschak> yes.
16:42:36 <tschak> ironically, it's why I kept a copy of the FIG-FORTH Installation manual open at all times, ROFL. ;)
16:42:38 <I440r> but if i cannot describe a solution to a problem using forh then you are right. i have no business trying to solve that problem with forth :)
16:42:58 <I440r> tschak, amg if ur a fig forther you need to upgrade to the 83 standard
16:43:01 <I440r>  /bonk
16:43:06 <tschak> hahaha
16:43:30 <tschak> i am messing with an atari 800 emulator running the forth, because I know the hardware intimately
16:43:33 <I440r> wasnt it figforth that had a broken definiton for NOT?
16:44:01 <tschak> the forth83 that's available for it, isn't a self booting forth
16:44:03 <tschak> which is what I Wanted
16:44:12 <tschak> i'm learning...so...this is fine.
16:44:16 <I440r> make it self booting :)
16:44:31 <I440r> erm atari 800 is what processor?
16:44:36 <I440r> 68k?
16:44:59 <tschak> 6502
16:45:07 <I440r> oooh crap i love 6502! lol
16:45:15 <I440r> well its probably a 6510 right?
16:45:22 <tschak> nope. that would be a Commodore 64
16:45:24 <I440r> you know the indirect jump bug in 6502?
16:45:26 <tschak> yes
16:45:29 <tschak> oh yes
16:45:35 <I440r> and the x2 crash? :)
16:45:37 <tschak> heheh
16:46:16 <tschak> the fig forth I am using is LITERALLY the Ragsdale FORTH, ported to use the Atari 800 screen/keyboard facilities
16:46:25 <tschak> with a slightly tweaked assembler.
16:46:31 <I440r> ragsdale was a forht coder god
16:48:03 <tschak> *nod*
16:48:13 <tschak> right now, as part of my tool building
16:48:22 <tschak> I am writing a full screen editor for the 800
16:48:36 <I440r> matching on screen to one floppy sector?
16:48:38 <tschak> the fig forth editor words are okay for simple stuff, but jeeeebus
16:48:42 <I440r> which was the original intent
16:49:13 <tschak> yeah, 1 screen = 8 128 bytes sectors.  since it's 64 characters per line, I use a 32 character line, and split it into a scrollable area.
16:49:34 <tschak> i just got it listing last night
16:49:46 <tschak> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FH2P-z2VVY
17:17:23 <tschak> i know, simple, unoptimized, but it will get better
17:18:08 <adasfdasf> what's fig-FORTH?
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17:27:49 <tschak> adasfdasf, the FIG was the original Forth Interest Group. They were responsible for porting FORTH Inc.'s microFORTH to a variety of processors starting in 1979.
17:28:36 <tschak> fig-FORTH refers to a classical implementation of FORTH running on a small CPU, where it takes over the host computer completely, and presents a highly simplified set of interfaces to the outside world.
17:29:54 <adasfdasf> is it like OS?
17:30:03 <tschak> sigh.
17:30:16 <tschak> it is the entire environment
17:30:23 <tschak> taking the place of the disk operating system
17:31:09 <adasfdasf> are there somebody running it today?
17:32:31 <tschak> most of the self contained FORTHs as described above are in use in the embedded computing world
17:33:13 <tschak> either as boot loader firmware (a la OpenFirmware on the SUN, PowerPC Macintosh, and the OLPC XO-1 laptop), or as the entire programming and runtime environment.
17:35:00 <adasfdasf> programming appears to be more fun in 70s and 80s
17:36:17 <tschak> a lot more intimate.
17:36:42 <adasfdasf> was BASIC loaded like OS?
17:36:56 <tschak> depends on the computer.
17:37:39 <tschak> For the early Atari 400/800/1200 machines, BASIC was supplied as a ROM cartridge. Later Atari machines (XL and XE) had BASIC built into the firmware.
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17:42:56 <adasfdasf> sorry but what's Open Firmware? can it be used to write final programs ?
17:43:18 <I440r> hmm well
17:43:21 <I440r> its sort of forth lol
17:43:27 <I440r> not sure if u can write real apps with it tho
17:44:35 <tschak> you...can.... you just have to write a LOT of your own words to do things like have screens, write screens to disk etc
17:44:40 <tschak> it IS a full forth interpreter
17:44:45 <tschak> just a very very very tiny one
17:45:23 <tschak> you'd also have to write a way to save the affected forth environment back, if you wanted to persist words
17:45:30 <tschak> otherwise you'd have to bootstrap it every time by hand
17:45:57 <tschak> I440r, what did you think?
17:48:02 <I440r> ?
17:48:03 <I440r> oh
17:48:09 <I440r> of the editor yea it looked cool :)
17:48:32 <I440r> i wrote a editor for the unreleased dos version of isforth :)
17:51:01 <tschak> it'll be more feature complete soon, but I needed to get listing working first. it doesn't use the editor device in the Atari OS, but rather sets up a custom display list and converts back and forth between ATASCII codes and the native ANTIC character codes
17:51:14 <tschak> so there is a big speed penalty, the conversion isn't 1 to 1
17:54:49 <I440r> :)
17:54:57 <I440r> we do these things because they are hard... 
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18:22:23 <adasfdasf> I like the way that Stallman does to fetch web pages.
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