00:00:00 --- log: started forth/12.02.28 01:02:28 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@61.184.206.85) joined #forth 01:02:28 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 01:29:26 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: Leaving) 01:43:07 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 01:47:17 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 01:47:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +v karswell 02:16:53 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@221.234.38.23) joined #forth 02:16:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 07:18:05 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: Leaving) 07:23:51 --- quit: nighty- (*.net *.split) 07:24:17 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 07:24:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty- 07:27:22 --- join: adasfdasf (~adasfdasf@187.38.69.78) joined #forth 07:27:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +v adasfdasf 08:25:44 --- join: nighty_- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 08:25:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty_- 09:07:06 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 09:07:06 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 09:12:55 if I want to open a jpeg image as bitmap (bgr) and my FORTH doesn't provide words to do it, must I (1) load libjpeg into FORTH or (2) write my own algorithm to decompress the file? 09:13:19 probably write it yourself 09:13:32 unless the forth you are using has the ability to link into C libraries in some way 09:13:42 like gforth, isn't ? 09:14:00 i have no idea if gforth does or not. i dont use it :) 09:15:21 then, If I choose to use FORTH in my next image project I'll need to increase the budget in order to support jpeg file 09:18:42 am I wrong? 09:19:18 I think this is the same work for sockets 09:21:08 i dont know. if gforth can load jpeg files then maybe not 09:21:33 however. if you could write a jpeg decoder then developing it in forht would be trivial if u knew forth 09:21:55 i.e. if you understood what a jpeg decoder did and how it did it and knew forth it would be simplle 09:23:01 get two teams. give them both the same project (non trival), both competent wth their language 09:23:07 forth and c++ or whatever 09:23:18 the forth team will generally be complete MONTHS ahead of the c++ team 09:23:58 thers a story from the 80's where general electric's diesel electric plant wanted to implement a diagnostic system for their diesel electric trains (yes the big ones) 09:24:12 they had a bunch of developers working for years on it and they produced NOTHING 09:24:37 forth inc was hiered, sent a cpl (maybe only one i dont remember) of ppl and they were complete with the entire system in something like 2 weeks 09:24:56 the story is that the manager then fired ALL his other developers on the spot 09:27:51 but I'll need to know how jpeg works to create the decoder it in FORTH. So do it is slow than call libjpeg, but you're saying that I'll get more time in entire project because FORTH, like general eletric. is it? 09:29:03 if you have competent forth developers then it will pay dividends with both development time and maintainance time for the software 09:29:23 forth as a development system is LIGHTYEARS ahead of pretty much everything else 09:29:35 problem is. forth doesnt have 24765265464259826498w645985265986254872 gigs of libraries 09:29:54 you need a whatsit you code a whatsit 09:32:06 so the time invested reinventing the wheel will be paid in entire development and later in maintainance. 09:32:20 absolutely 09:32:27 assuming competence with forth 09:32:41 which is easier to achieve than competence with c 09:33:04 the DISADVANTAGE of forth is finding people who know it 09:33:10 however. get ONE and he can teach everyone else 09:33:24 I'm afraid because I looking for these things as C programmer. "So must I recreate libjpeg inside FORTH?" 09:33:59 you might not have to. 09:34:08 btw i would NOT use gforth for a commercial product 09:34:35 while i HATE the ans standard with a passion I would have to recommend you go with a forth inc system 09:35:02 they can also train you and if you need a jpg library in forth Leon (who is a forth coder GOD) could create one for you in no time flat 09:35:32 i have no idea how much a forth inc system costs or how much training would cost or how much they would charge to develop a library for you 09:35:54 but i would go with a forth inc system. it will be more capable than gforth 09:36:02 and faster 09:36:20 using it into commercial product, I will put my software into small hardware. 09:36:23 and no i dont get any kickbacks for the plug :) 09:36:36 yes. then i would say gforth will never do for you 09:36:41 how small ? 09:36:49 what architecture are you targeting? 09:38:11 ARM, maybe, now we are using wintel and having problems with networking, user accounts, all fck things that isn't part of our core business 09:38:52 a forth inc system is a teathered forth. i.e. the COMPILER is on your development PC. this is attached to the target and you develop your code ON the target 09:38:58 i.e. you do NOT need an emulator 09:39:07 forht inc has arm based systems 09:39:38 is it cheap ? 09:39:48 you would be able to interactivly develop on the target 09:39:51 cheaper than arduino? 09:40:14 arduino is an avr with training wheels 09:40:33 arm is somewhat more powerful. i have no idea how much an arm development system from forht inc woud cost 09:40:56 forth inc doesnt sell the hardware, forht inc sells the forht systems 09:41:06 if you want cheap arm take a look at the raspberry pi :) 09:43:31 I was looking for small board of TEXAS with ARM & Linux 09:44:07 but with FORTH maybe I can remove Linux 09:49:40 not unless the forth was specifically targeted for that specific hardware. thats probably something forht inc would have to do for you 09:49:54 but thats maybe not a problem 09:50:45 you should really contact forth inc, they can advise you whichway to to far better than i 09:51:29 plus you can get a better feel for the cost of starting to use forth in your products 09:51:38 i see no down side myself but then im biased 09:51:45 and YOU have a business to run and i dont 09:51:51 forht inc can help u decide :) 09:55:22 no problem, but for now I'll keep learning it and using into small projects :) 09:55:36 :) 09:55:50 you mentioned arduino have you messed with those at all? 09:56:12 personally i think arduino is a weener system and thust totally unsuitable for learning real system development 09:57:59 no, never 09:58:17 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:58:44 but we are looking for platforms to replace wintel. 09:59:18 we are looking for boards of texas instruments 10:01:00 why TI? 10:03:55 for us, ARM, board, network & integrated sdk. 10:04:09 running linux 10:04:35 so we can plug ip cam and run the decoder 10:04:47 the software is write in C today 10:04:56 was wrote* 10:08:09 yes. look at the raspberry pi 10:08:21 thats going to be VERY cheap and will have all the stuff you need 10:09:16 only for $25 10:11:13 how FORTHs deal with threads & sync ? 10:11:24 when running withou OS 10:21:42 that depends on the forth 10:21:50 you can have preemtive and cooperative multi tasking 10:21:58 i consider cooperative to be superior because it is simpler 10:39:51 ok 10:40:22 how do you code in forth? do you try some code into command line then rewrite it into text editor? 10:40:30 --- quit: nighty_- (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:47:18 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 10:47:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 10:51:16 well 10:51:22 both yes 10:52:05 to learn you would type it in directly 10:52:16 but forth doesnt save what u type so its lost on boot 10:52:20 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:52:22 if u have it in a file u get to keep it 10:55:42 --- join: nighty_- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 10:55:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v nighty_- 10:56:39 --- join: Kumul (~Kumul@67.224.230.59) joined #forth 10:56:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Kumul 10:58:49 is there any word to save prev line into any file? 11:03:09 gforth has a history file 11:18:14 adasfdasf: if you wish to interoperate with outside world, 11:18:14 you have to invest time into learning how to link to C at least. 11:18:27 It is possible in gforth, but it isn't actually nice. 11:19:24 Alternatives are learning SWIG and internals of some Forth, 11:19:41 using Forth as embedded scripting language at most, 11:19:45 abandoning Forth. 11:20:50 so how it is achived today? 11:21:46 It isn't. :) 11:22:44 how are the mainstream FORTHs which provides interoperance with external world? 11:23:26 okay, nobody wants to call a library done in C. :) 11:23:45 Mainstream? 11:24:12 yes, like MSC "is" the C compiler for windows 11:24:16 *MSVC 11:24:59 I don't know what you call "mainstream" here. 11:25:15 All systems have at most five-ten users. 11:25:19 the most used one 11:25:36 Kumul: yes, the most used one 11:25:38 This is just a noise. 11:27:22 Does it matter? 11:28:34 the good thing about noise is you can ignore it 11:28:59 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 11:28:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 11:29:32 If you ignore noise maximal usage frequency will be zero. 11:31:16 adasfdasf, ignore asau he is a forth hater. he is here only to give constant negative input to any discussion 11:31:49 adasfdasf: ignore I440r, he is evangelist. 11:32:06 He is here to provide only false positive input to any discussion. 11:32:31 look I'm new here and I don't know how things are in FORTH, so I'll try to match them with C. If I want to learn C, I can use a small compiler called lcc, but I wont trust it to create big projects. 11:32:58 When I'll create professional/commercial/ software in C I'll touch in MSVC or GCC. They are the most used one. 11:33:23 adasfdasf, dont try compare forth to c. forht compiles to at least 100 times smaller than the equiv c for any non trivial application 11:33:33 Are there something like it in FORTH? 11:33:40 which is why i can code an ncurses equiv into 4k of object code space 11:33:46 adasfdasf: No, there's nothing like that. 11:33:59 I440r: no, you can't. 11:34:17 All you can is code something broken and call it "curses-like." 11:34:19 adasfdasf, forth inc and marcel hendrix might have something different to say about that 11:34:57 so if I choose jonesforth as my FORTH to develop big projects, are there some wrong with my choose? 11:35:14 Hrm. 11:35:16 yes. jonesforth has no extensions 11:35:20 at all 11:35:37 adasfdasf: You could start implementing your own compiler with better success. 11:35:48 while the sources are a great source of reference info i would not call it a good forth 11:35:48 but I can extend the kernel using assembly just to call the natives routines. can't I? 11:35:54 isforth is closer to being a good forth 11:36:06 adasfdasf, not interactivly 11:36:12 I440r: Does it run on FreeBSD/arm? 11:36:31 but u cant intereactivly define asm defs in isforth either 11:36:50 I saw it in gforth 11:37:01 yes. gforth has an assembler extension 11:37:11 SEE +: mov dword ptr 42A6F8 , ebx ... 11:37:26 yes. thats because gforth has a built in assembler 11:37:32 so does win32forth 11:38:10 i dont know if or how gforth creates turnkeyd applications and when it does... those are probably GPL 11:38:20 i.e. i doubt you can create a non gpl application with gforth 11:39:10 with isforth you can. i specifically wrote my licence to EXCLUDE the viral nature of GPL 11:39:29 for anything you write. isforth is itself LGPL 11:39:53 I read. 11:59:13 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:40:13 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 12:40:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +v MayDaniel 12:49:11 --- quit: adasfdasf () 13:17:59 --- quit: DGASAU (*.net *.split) 13:17:59 --- quit: angstrom (*.net *.split) 13:18:01 --- quit: yiyus (*.net *.split) 13:18:01 --- quit: ivan` (*.net *.split) 13:18:02 --- quit: shachaf (*.net *.split) 13:18:03 --- quit: ASau (*.net *.split) 13:18:04 --- quit: koisoke (*.net *.split) 13:18:06 --- quit: karswell (*.net *.split) 13:18:06 --- quit: malyn (*.net *.split) 13:18:06 --- quit: MayDaniel (*.net *.split) 13:18:08 --- quit: I440r (*.net *.split) 13:18:10 --- quit: kandinski (*.net *.split) 13:18:11 --- quit: KipIngram (*.net *.split) 13:18:14 --- quit: cataska (*.net *.split) 13:18:14 --- quit: segher (*.net *.split) 13:18:36 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: KipIngram (~kip@85.17.255.186) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: DGASAU (~user@91.218.144.129) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- mode: kornbluth.freenode.net set +vvvv MayDaniel karswell KipIngram DGASAU 13:18:36 --- join: malyn (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: ASau (~user@176.14.69.54) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: yiyus (1242712427@je.je.je) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: kandinski (~kandinski@hiperactivo.com) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- mode: kornbluth.freenode.net set +vvvv malyn ASau yiyus kandinski 13:18:36 --- join: angstrom (~Unknown@unaffiliated/angstrom) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: cataska (~cataska@210.64.6.233) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: segher (~segher@5ED3C8DF.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: ivan` (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- mode: kornbluth.freenode.net set +vvvv angstrom cataska segher ivan` 13:18:36 --- join: shachaf (~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- join: koisoke (xef4@epilogue.org) joined #forth 13:18:36 --- mode: kornbluth.freenode.net set +vv shachaf koisoke 13:43:27 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-178-004-030-045.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 13:43:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Snoopy_1711 13:43:31 --- quit: Snoopy_1711 (Client Quit) 14:15:21 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:30:40 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@61.184.206.221) joined #forth 17:30:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +v ttmrichter 18:17:51 --- quit: nighty_- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 20:58:04 --- quit: Kumul (Quit: gone) 21:45:29 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: Leaving) 22:45:18 --- join: I440r (~zhiming@24-183-5-217.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com) joined #forth 22:45:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +v I440r 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/12.02.28