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13:17:04 <Kumul> I440r: bad idea, suckless ppl are a bunch of trolls
13:17:34 <I440r> yea
13:17:36 <I440r> im learning that
13:18:48 <I440r> Kumul, people like tht piss me off. like the eterm guy telling me i can write the tabbed interface if i want. wont be that difficult to do etc etc
13:19:16 <I440r> and suckless people suck worse, just on that one small encounter i can say that 
13:20:03 <I440r> so i dont think we talked before? i assume your a forth coder :)
13:20:26 <Kumul> they used to be good, but then the trolls came, as you can see, they dont even like or support their own projects (wmii and libixp)
13:20:37 <I440r> ya.
13:20:50 <I440r> did look at their terminal (st) and it is damned clean source
13:20:51 <Kumul> im just a hobbyist who has too much free time on his hands
13:21:01 <I440r> but almost totally devoid of comments. plus its in C so it automatically sucks
13:21:41 <I440r> i did want to talk to its author tho because i see issues with other terminals where MY code doesnt work right in them... works perfectly in st
13:22:03 <I440r> i always figured it was a bug in the terminals im not working right in... (i never assume MY code is b0rked :)
13:22:10 <I440r> st sort of proves that theory right
13:23:28 <ASau> That just means that your and their code may have similar bugs.
13:25:32 <Kumul> the author is arg, but he never answers, try the maling list, you cant expect honest discussion in IRC nowadays
13:25:50 <I440r> kuml i wont subscribe to any mailing lists
13:25:52 <I440r> not ever
13:26:19 <I440r> mailing lists are a fucking horrible way to contact devs
13:26:46 <I440r> here please spam me with 60000 irrelavant emails per day until i figure out how to filter ONLY those im interested in 
13:27:12 <Kumul> and its amazing that st works, the last time i tried it, it was annoyingly slow, (anything that required drawing, took a decade)
13:27:24 <I440r> its damned snappy now
13:39:09 <Kumul> and I440r you just need to check xprop to set window ids and such
13:40:51 <I440r> yea jumping through bullshit hoops like that is exactly what i dont want to do tho
13:40:55 <I440r> launch tabbed
13:40:59 <I440r> run xprop on tabbed
13:41:19 <I440r> run terminal emulator with knowledge of tabbed's xid or what ever
13:41:32 <I440r> so that i can embed terminal within tabbed
13:41:37 <I440r> CANNOT automate that
13:41:59 <I440r> i.e. cannot set an app-icon in windowmaker to laujch my-fave-terminal-inside-tabbed
13:42:14 <I440r> im not going to launch 3 applications just to get ONE tabbed terminal
13:42:17 <I440r> thats bullshot
13:42:20 <I440r> bullshit even
13:42:43 <I440r> i have mrxvt which is tabbed but has some minor issues that i CAN live wth
13:48:44 <I440r> and asau if you could show me exactly where my code is broken i would be HAPPY to fix it.... i can show you countless examples of where various terminals are SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY borked
13:48:55 <I440r> simply for having incomplete or incorrect terminfo files
13:49:11 <Kumul> you can actually, thats the whole point
13:49:34 <I440r> ya. st doesnt exhibit those problems i see with other terminals
13:49:49 <I440r> worst offender is gnu screen
13:49:51 <I440r> period
13:50:09 <I440r> worst abortion of an application ive ever seen
13:51:47 <I440r> which is why things that dont suck like ncurses have to be 500k in size. simply for all the bullshit DUCT TAPE code he has to write to cater to the breakage in almost every terminal in existence
13:52:35 <I440r> im pretty certain my terminfo parsing code is spot on
13:53:01 <I440r> given a non broken terminfo file (screen) i can do things with my curses code taht cant be done easily with ncurses
13:53:02 <Kumul> ok, as an example: x=`tabbed -d` ; surf -e $x &
13:53:20 <Kumul> that will put surf on tabbed
13:53:46 <Kumul> you could create a couple of scripts, that will either go on tabbed or so on
13:54:25 <I440r> tabbed: missing fontset: ISO8859-1
13:54:26 <I440r> lol
13:54:47 <I440r> isnt that in corefonts?
13:54:49 <Kumul> yep, mine is even worse
13:56:12 <I440r> i think thats a tabbed bug
13:56:20 <Kumul> it isnt
13:56:51 <Kumul> actually, i dont think anybody knows where fonts exist
13:57:38 <I440r> lol
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13:58:28 <Kumul> ill go and bother them, i also get the errors in dwm
13:58:33 <I440r> well i emerged tabbed so iwould assume the gentoo devs would make that compile KNOW wehre fonts were
13:58:48 <I440r> good luck.
14:20:16 <Kumul> they just said to install the fonts :S
14:21:54 <I440r> they are installed
14:21:56 <I440r> morons
14:22:01 <I440r> them not you lol
14:22:20 <I440r> thus the plural nature of my statement :)
15:06:00 <Kumul> I440r: do you use screen?
15:06:04 <I440r> no
15:06:14 <I440r> i cant. it is so horrendously broken
15:07:04 <Kumul> good, it doesnt seem like your a masochist
15:07:23 <Kumul> i was going to recommend you tmux
15:08:17 <I440r> it would solve the problem of having scatterbrained terminals all over my desktop but it would be a totally NON visual solution to the problem
15:08:37 <I440r> i would have to do next next next next next and flip throu al the screens to find the one i wanted
15:08:54 <Kumul> your still talking about screen i hope
15:08:55 <I440r> thats almost as bad as having to do ^kx ^kx 40 times in a row to quit and save all files in joe
15:09:05 <I440r> tmux doesnt work that way?
15:09:17 <Kumul> well, it has sessions
15:09:42 <Kumul> and you can use numbers or find to select a window
15:09:52 <I440r> no still not an acceptable solution
15:09:55 <Kumul> via patterns, or just nextnextnextnext
15:10:01 <Kumul> or use the mouse
15:10:03 <I440r> thehn i have to remember wht number screen has what
15:10:09 <I440r> mouse?
15:10:12 <I440r> there are tabs?
15:10:15 <Kumul> yes
15:10:19 <I440r> !!!!
15:10:47 <Kumul> :)
15:11:12 <Kumul> there is also dvtm, but i havent looked into that one
15:11:55 <I440r> what does C-b mean
15:11:57 <I440r> ^b?
15:12:24 <Kumul> I440r: prefix for a command
15:12:28 <I440r> this man page is gobbldegook
15:12:34 <I440r> i have NO idea how to control this
15:12:38 <Kumul> what!?
15:12:49 <Kumul> the tmux manpage is nothing short of perfection
15:13:37 <Kumul> you press C-b and then n for the next window, 
15:14:32 <I440r> think they could have made the prefix keys further apart lol
15:14:43 <Kumul> its configurable
15:14:50 <I440r> WHY do they not just sayu "^b"  ^ is universal for CONTROL lol
15:14:55 <I440r> yea
15:15:30 <Kumul> i dont know about that, it also means powers, C is control and M for meta
15:15:55 <Kumul> i've never used emacs, so maybe its there where ^ is for control
15:16:24 <I440r> i dont use emacs either. i have an aversion (psychotic aversion) to bloatware :)
15:16:44 <Kumul> you use joe then?
15:17:04 <Kumul> xD
15:17:14 <I440r> ok i cant seem to select 0:man 1:bash  <-- it shows tabs but they are not clickable
15:17:16 <I440r> and yes i use joe
15:17:36 <I440r> but im looking for a sane replacement. ^kx^kx^kx 40 times in a row gets OLD real fast
15:17:43 <Kumul> you need to turn mouse select on
15:17:56 <I440r> and the author refuses to implement a "quit and save all files"
15:19:12 <Kumul>  tmux set-option -g mouse-select-window on
15:19:46 <Kumul> i think thats it
15:20:01 <I440r> failed to connect to server. connection refused or somethgin lik ethat
15:20:22 <I440r> failed to connect to server: Connection refused
15:20:29 <Kumul> are you running tmux?
15:20:42 <I440r> ok this wont work then
15:20:51 <I440r> because i have to be IN tmux in order to turn on mouse support
15:20:59 <Kumul> of course
15:21:04 <I440r> i dont want to have to jump through this hoop every time i launch tmux
15:21:05 <I440r> tmux
15:21:17 <I440r> tmuxj -lots --of --obscure --switches --
15:21:19 <Kumul> it is configurable
15:21:37 <I440r> its still not really a viable solution
15:21:43 <Kumul> not obscure, look at the manpage, it has a column for all of the commands that you can change
15:21:55 <I440r> no matter HOW you cut it i have to jump through some sort of hoops to get it working. 
15:22:16 <Kumul> echo  tmux set-option -g mouse-select-window on >> $HOME/.tmux.conf
15:22:19 <I440r> right. COMMANDS i can execute AFTER its running
15:22:22 <Kumul> problem solved, now launch tmux
15:23:10 <I440r> why does .tmux.conf invoke tmux
15:23:20 <Kumul> its tmux rc file
15:23:26 <Kumul> its tmux's rc file
15:23:41 <I440r> tmux launches. it reads its rc file. its rc file invokes tmux with switches
15:23:42 <Kumul> echo set-option -g mouse-select-window on >> $HOME/.tmux.conf
15:23:46 <I440r> thats kind of convoluted
15:23:52 <I440r> ok thats better lol
15:24:08 <Kumul> pardon, i just pasted without looking
15:24:39 <I440r> k. launched with mouse select. still cant select with mouse lol
15:24:46 <I440r> checking for typos
15:26:27 <Kumul> if you havent killed tmux, you need to reread the config file, ## in tmux ; tmux source $HOME/.tmux.conf
15:27:24 <I440r> ok mouse select works. lets see if i can get an st terminal running with tmux launched per default
15:28:21 <I440r> no because st is not windowmaker friendly lol
15:28:23 <I440r> damn
15:28:37 <I440r> ill fake it hang on
15:31:31 <Kumul> i tried to run it and it needed st's terminfo file
15:31:44 <Kumul> of course, thats compiling locally
15:31:45 <I440r> just export TERM="xterm"
15:32:11 <I440r> or modify the config.h to make the term report self as xterm
15:32:16 <I440r> which is what i did
15:32:38 <I440r> gotta quit out of x. log out. log back in and have ~/bin in my env
15:32:40 <I440r> brb
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15:37:16 <I440r> k well st is giving me a..ooo[Kooo[Kooo.............. displayed in the windows drag bar
15:37:29 <I440r> and oin launch i have the date being displaed in the console
15:37:41 <I440r> things are not working perfect here.. something is screwed up
15:38:15 <I440r> how do i change the name of a tab. the tab name does not seem to follow the name of the application running in that tab 
15:38:54 <I440r> hmm seems st does not have its terminfo file perfect either
15:39:17 <I440r> or maybe this is tmux doing this
15:39:22 <I440r> let me test outside of tmu
15:39:23 <I440r> tmux
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15:39:54 <I440r> nope not tmux. st has a broken terminfo file
15:40:07 <I440r> bold is being displayed totally fucked up
15:40:13 <I440r> ooooh crap
15:40:15 <I440r> no 
15:40:31 <I440r> i changed the FONT but not the BOLD font
15:40:34 <I440r> thats whats screwed up :)
15:40:59 <I440r> when i compiled ST i changed the font it uses to one thats not . <-- this tiny lol
15:41:05 <I440r> i didnt change the BOLD font ha
15:42:48 <I440r> i also dont like my command prompt being
15:43:15 <I440r> mark4$mtech [tab tab tab] ~/path/to/cwd [tab tab tab tab] X
15:43:21 <I440r> where x is my cursor home position
15:44:00 <I440r> user@where [SPACE] /path/to/pwd [SPACE] X
15:44:02 <I440r> that has to be changed
15:48:55 <I440r> i also seem to be getting artifacts left behind as my cursor travels over characters as im editing them in joe
15:49:06 <I440r> maybe st doesnt "suck less" enough :)
15:51:29 <I440r> ok that was a result of bad font selection i take it back :)
15:52:48 <I440r> no. crap i cant tell. it isnt happening in st unless i have bad fonts selected or im running inside tmux
15:53:27 <I440r> ugh lol no its me again. im running the ~/bin/st NOT the new one i just bult that fixes this
15:53:30 <I440r> dumb
16:02:36 <Kumul> WOAH, lots of text, whats a drag bar? is it the title bar?
16:02:45 <Kumul> and i knew it! st is as slow as before
16:02:47 <I440r> yes
16:02:56 <I440r> and ignore most of that i was being stupid
16:03:06 <I440r> i am seeing DELETE not working right but backspace works
16:03:15 <I440r> something about that in the config file i need to look at i think
16:04:37 <Kumul> yeah, that is usually configurable, even Terminal (xfce) has an option to change it
16:05:36 <Kumul> which i find stupid, who (and why) wouldnt you use DELETE to delete forward?
16:05:55 <I440r> exactly. delete currently does nothing
16:06:12 <I440r> oh crap i bet it does. my laptop has two delete keys right next to each other
16:06:26 <I440r> one is theoretically the number pad del and the one above it is the normal delete
16:06:44 <I440r> well i never have numlock on so the larger button SHOULD be a delete but istn
16:07:00 <I440r> yea its numpad del not working for some reason
16:07:03 <I440r> del works fine
16:08:01 <I440r> im beautifying the sources to st
16:08:09 <I440r> first thing i did ws create a new file called st.h
16:08:20 <Kumul> no need
16:08:22 <I440r> the 825649832649 lines of CRUFT at the top of st.c got moved into the st.h file where it belongs
16:08:24 <Kumul> there is a config.h
16:08:41 <Kumul> nvm nvm
16:08:45 <I440r> :)
16:08:51 <I440r> im also DEtabbing it
16:09:09 <I440r> and setting indents to TWO SPACES not 4/8/45276457924 per the Linux kernel coding standard
16:09:25 <I440r> linus                    torvalds                     wants                          sources                         like                       this
16:09:45 <I440r> because single spaces dont delineate blocks enough for him so he needs a EIGHT spaces per tab
16:10:25 <Kumul> if you look at config.h you can see there is a #define TAB 8    which you can change
16:10:40 <I440r> no i mean in the source file not my editor
16:10:55 <I440r> or the terminal
16:12:26 <I440r> he is also very inconsistent with the use of tabs and spaces
16:12:33 <I440r> some places he tabs. other places he uses spaces.
16:12:53 <I440r> cant make his mind up so ill make it up for him and convert ALL tabs to spaces and set ALL indents to two spaces :P
16:13:15 <I440r> also getting ridd of the HORRIBLE looking /* blah blah */ comments
16:13:39 <I440r> probably wouldnt be a good idea to post my results lol
16:13:41 <I440r> he would hate me
16:14:11 <Kumul> I440r: if what you say is true, pythonistas would hate him too
16:14:40 <I440r> heh im also going to get rid of the stupid emacs indentation on function declarations
16:14:41 <I440r> void
16:14:45 <I440r> blah(void)
16:14:47 <I440r> instead of
16:14:52 <I440r> void blah(void)
16:16:29 <I440r> and the stupi K&R bracing {
16:16:30 <I440r> }
16:17:56 <Kumul> will you keep everything on 1 line
16:18:04 <I440r> yes
16:18:22 <I440r> what do u mean? for the void foo(void) ?
16:18:31 <I440r> or k&r bracing
16:18:44 <I440r> bracing should always be as follows for sanitys sake
16:18:45 <I440r> {
16:18:46 <I440r>   code here
16:18:47 <I440r> }
16:18:56 <I440r> never like this EVER {
16:18:57 <I440r> }
16:20:11 <Kumul> i wont say anything because what i write is gibberish
16:20:28 <Kumul> i tend to close everything on the same line (yes)
16:20:34 <Kumul> }  }  }  }  }  }
16:20:42 <I440r> ok im seeing a ? x : y construct inside a typedef struct
16:20:58 <I440r> ulon col[LEN(colorname) < 256 ? 256 : LEN(colorname)
16:21:09 <I440r> that gets processed at COMPILE time?
16:21:19 <I440r> or run time?
16:21:57 <I440r> visually that can lead to issues where you might not close enough or might close too many :)
16:22:06 <I440r> and you HONESTLY should not be nesting to that level anywya lol
16:22:20 <I440r> i hope as a prospective forth programmer you lear to factor better :)
16:22:22 <Kumul> I440r: not if you use tabs properly
16:22:35 <I440r> TABS are evil
16:22:41 <I440r> tabs are the spawn of satan
16:22:55 <Kumul> that might be why they are so useful
16:26:33 <I440r> lol he used goto ! 
16:26:57 <I440r> might have to change that to a do
16:26:59 <I440r> {
16:27:03 <I440r> } while (0);
16:27:07 <I440r> lol
16:27:12 <I440r> and put a break; in there
16:27:27 <I440r> }:) just to be MORE evil and obfuscated
16:33:59 <Kumul> what would be a good forth style? i havent seen much forth code out there or maybe i havent searched well enough
16:34:22 <I440r> well imHo (humble being a relative term) check out www.isforth.com
16:34:56 <I440r> im kind of anally retentive about source formatting
16:38:40 <Kumul> lets see if i can compile on fbsd
16:39:09 <I440r> anprobably not. there is a freebsd version but i dont run fbsd so its probably broken
16:39:22 <I440r> it MIGHT be you also need to turn off heap randomization in fbsd
16:39:42 <I440r> that might be the breakage. it worked fine on an older one but i forget at what point it stopped working
16:39:53 <I440r> im thinking it might have been when HR was implemented
16:40:08 <I440r> i think the download still links the fbsd version
16:40:09 <I440r> if not
16:40:48 <I440r> www.isforth.coom/isforth-fbsd.tar.gz i believe
16:41:05 <I440r> erm fixing the .com typo too
16:41:23 <I440r> thats a VERY old version though.
17:06:51 <I440r> were u able to get anything working
17:49:34 <Kumul> sry was eating and i think ill call it a day for today, but just wanted to look at the code for educational purposes, so it doesnt matter if it compiles (it doesnt)
17:50:16 <Kumul> theres also a lot of  *~ files
17:53:18 <I440r> there are? eep
17:53:29 <I440r> i turned taht "feature" off in joe
17:53:40 <I440r> they are backup files :/
17:53:58 <Kumul> i knows
17:54:02 <I440r> :))
17:54:10 <Kumul> vim keeps them too
17:55:06 <Kumul> with dvcs nowadays keeping backups are no longer useful
17:55:40 <I440r> dvcs?
17:55:49 <I440r> some sort of version contro?
17:55:51 <I440r> i use svn
17:57:34 <Kumul> distributed version control
17:57:59 <Kumul> i've never used svn, it seems too complicated
17:59:47 <I440r> ugh i think distributed is too complex lol
17:59:55 <I440r> svn is a snap 
18:02:51 <Kumul> maybe saying saying backups are useless is an exageration, but i focus on reverting changes, it seems easier, plus one keeps a backup and you have yet another backup in .hg (or .git)
18:03:36 <I440r> yea ive been neglecting my checins lol
18:03:40 <I440r> i like to check in every day
18:03:42 <I440r> working or not
18:04:06 <I440r> which works fine cuz right now its just me
18:05:55 <Kumul> I440r: whats complex? i know only about 10 commands, and i deal fine
18:06:13 <Kumul> i saw a book on svn once, if you need a book to learn a tool, now thats complex
18:06:38 <I440r> ya thers alot it does. but svn co. svn status svn commit tahts all u need
18:06:46 <I440r> co is shorthand for checkout
18:09:37 <I440r> u can see isforth x86 svn repo at http://24.183/5/217:8001 i think
18:12:22 <Kumul> i still dont trust it, if everyone moved away from cvs and svn, there must be a reason
18:12:51 <I440r> linus torvalds opened his mouth and they all bowed down to his greatness and switched 
18:13:05 <Kumul> i dont think its that simple
18:13:09 <I440r> personally i think distributed version control is a horrendously obvuscated way of doing it
18:13:39 <I440r> i cant see how you can keep track of who made what changes when and why 
18:13:50 <I440r> without you have to inject ALL that info into the source files themselves
18:13:56 <I440r> like pvcs does
18:14:19 <I440r> pvcs source files have 4765293765492364572 pages of comments at the top which are all the checkin comments for EVERy version of that soruce file
18:14:34 <I440r> ive seen 40 odd pages of comments for a 4 or 5 line function. thats all there was in the file
18:14:45 <I440r> but it was years old and had many changes over the years
18:41:02 <Kumul> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_revision_control i only see good things
18:41:35 <Kumul> I440r: you can see who made which changes by looking at the log
18:42:31 <I440r> but wheres the LOG lol
18:42:50 <Kumul> its on the hidden directory
18:42:56 <I440r> there aint no server :)
18:43:13 <I440r> yea so any time i do a fetch of the repo i get the entire history of it too
18:43:17 <I440r> thats the suck
18:43:36 <I440r> thats why i think a central repository server is better
18:43:40 <I440r> you check out the sources
18:43:45 <I440r> you can  ask the server for history info
18:44:00 <I440r> u dont have to download the entire history for every single file in the entire project just to check it out
18:46:23 <Kumul> so cvs is better for big projects and dvcs for small ones
18:48:52 <Kumul> i was angry the other day because FUSE asks for the fbsd sources to install, and installing the source would be 500mb, and was thinking of something better that didnt work that way, glad to know it always existed
19:20:53 <I440r> :)
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