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17:00:10 <steampunkey> hey. is there a cheatsheat for forth that you know of?
17:03:41 <ASau`> dpANS
17:04:19 <ASau`> What do you need exactly?
17:04:34 <steampunkey> a cheatsheet.
17:04:57 <ASau`> What should it contain?
17:05:13 <ASau`> Perhaps you should start from analyzing your needs.
17:05:27 <steampunkey> forth basic syntax (and its stdlib i reckon)
17:05:32 <ASau`> Just a "cheatsheet" is vague.
17:05:37 <ASau`> Hrm.
17:05:45 <ASau`> What do you call "basic syntax"?
17:05:58 <steampunkey> well you could throw one at me if it exists, i'd tell you if it suits me
17:06:00 <ASau`> And there're no "stdlib" at all.
17:06:23 <ASau`> Find dpANS document on Taygeta or anywhere you like.
17:06:41 <steampunkey> that's so not a cheatsheet
17:06:56 <steampunkey> that's -furthering the analogy- a textbook.
17:07:28 <ASau`> That's not a textbook in any sense.
17:07:47 <steampunkey> it's more a textbook than a cheatsheet
17:07:59 <ASau`> If you need to recover how exactly the word behaves, you need it.
17:08:20 <ASau`> Otherwise there's nothing to remember.
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17:13:17 <steampunkey> i'll take that as a "no".
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17:14:31 <steampunkey> ASau`: anyway, i know a few programming languages, among them C, scheme and assembly. i don't have the nerve for the "forth is very different" intros. can you reccomend a tutorial that is... "hard"? with more code than words so to speak?
17:14:51 <steampunkey> *not* a book
17:14:51 <ASau`> Read the code.
17:15:15 <ASau`> Forth is simpler than Scheme, it doesn't have continuations to explain.
17:15:27 <ASau`> And no TCE to explain either.
17:19:44 <steampunkey> sigh
17:20:47 <ASau`> What do you want?
17:21:30 <ASau`> This is different language, it isn't Scheme with another syntax.
17:21:46 <ASau`> Or with another set of primitives.
17:21:48 <steampunkey> it's pretty close though
17:21:54 <ASau`> Not at all.
17:22:18 <steampunkey> afai have managed to see. which isn't much admittedly, because some guy i asked gave me the standard -_-
17:23:35 <ASau`> To get to Forth from Scheme you need
17:23:42 <ASau`> first, get rid of continuations,
17:23:49 <ASau`> second, get rid of TCE,
17:24:24 <ASau`> third, get rid of cons structures along with parameter lists,
17:24:59 <ASau`> fourth, introduce parameter list combinators (to swap and duplicate parameters),
17:25:25 <steampunkey> ASau`: i bet that's the only thing you need to introduce
17:25:32 <ASau`> and only then you may get postfix syntax instead of prefix one.
17:26:16 <steampunkey> you say forth is a stripped scheme, how is that "not at all" close?
17:26:49 <steampunkey> main point of difference polish instead of prefix notation :-)
17:26:51 <ASau`> No, I don't say that.
17:27:07 <ASau`> I say that Forth is very far from Scheme.
17:27:19 <ASau`> See reasons why above.
17:27:47 <ASau`> 1-3 are essential ones.
17:27:47 <steampunkey> yes, and yet you imply that the difference is that Scheme has more stuff
17:27:59 <ASau`> It isn't just more.
17:28:04 <ASau`> It is _fundamentally_ more.
17:28:26 <ASau`> You cannot "just implement" first class continuations.
17:29:22 <ASau`> Even TCE isn't easy to implement in Forth,
17:29:39 <ASau`> it involves breaking established semantics of definitions.
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17:33:39 <steampunkey> imagine trying to convince a guy who knows C++ that C is very different because it *lacks* stuff.
17:34:10 <ASau`> The relation is different.
17:34:50 <steampunkey> i understand that constraints may make it harder to think in Forth than in Scheme. I don't care, I actually find wrapping my head around it fun (unlike learning new abstractions - ie going higher).
17:35:01 <ASau`> C++ is close to C with somewhat "object oriented" stuff plus more strict typing rules and procedure overloading.
17:35:10 <ASau`> Scheme is very far from Forth.
17:35:39 <steampunkey> all that i need is to familiarize myself with the basic syntax and the basic ways to do things. that's why i need exmples with only few words. and that's what i ask(ed) for.
17:36:57 <steampunkey> ASau`: OOP + own stdlib expansion pack, templating, now even lambdas.... but none of that matters
17:37:16 <ASau`> Ah, right, templates.
17:37:34 <ASau`> There's one problem with templates,
17:37:39 <ASau`> but it is really big one.
17:37:52 <steampunkey> they suck? :-)
17:38:01 <ASau`> Worse.
17:38:20 <ASau`> They are too powerful and thus very hard to reason about.
17:38:42 <ASau`> You can write something and not know how exactly it works with your compiler.
17:39:56 <steampunkey> btw. your failure to mention true contention points between scheme and forth encourages me to think that forth's way of doing things will be easy to master.
17:39:59 <steampunkey> (and fun)
17:40:17 <steampunkey> unfortunately, it seems i'll have to figure out on my own how exactly.
17:40:34 <ASau`> It depends on what you call "Forth's way."
17:40:57 <steampunkey> forth for schemers single-(web!)page tutor would be great
17:42:00 <ASau`> If you mean doing patch up work then "Forth's way" is easy to master, right.
17:42:19 <ASau`> If you mean doing things in a correct way, then Forth is far from being easy.
17:42:30 <steampunkey> ASau`: i worked with postfix notation in C (there was an excercise to basically make a parser-calculator, which i now realize probably interprets a subset of Forth XD)
17:43:17 <ASau`> Ah, right, there's another thing that is fundamentally lacking in Forth.
17:43:21 <ASau`> Two of them.
17:43:26 <steampunkey> with so few low-level abstractions, how can you write anything incorrectly?
17:43:36 <ASau`> First class functions and lexical environment.
17:43:43 <steampunkey> seems to me - if it works, it's good.
17:44:08 <ASau`> Patch up, right.
17:44:13 <ASau`> Sure, it is easy.
17:44:18 <ASau`> Somewhat.
17:44:31 <steampunkey> -_-
17:44:45 <ASau`> You understand that it is wrong only when you need to scale up.
17:45:06 <steampunkey> it's like you really really want to make forth to be something special, therefore hiding from me the fact that it is special in its simplicity (a good thing, also a good thing with scheme)
17:45:33 <ASau`> Is C easy?
17:45:43 <steampunkey> definitely not.
17:45:57 <ASau`> Then why do you think Forth is?
17:46:02 <steampunkey> its syntax is overwhelming, its stdlib is enormous.
17:46:19 <ASau`> Forget libc.
17:46:25 <ASau`> Is C easy?
17:46:29 <ASau`> Without libc.
17:46:35 <steampunkey> Forth's syntax is easy, and you said it has no stdlib
17:46:42 <ASau`> Forth's syntax isn't easier.
17:46:46 <steampunkey> * i reckon, again, you gave me nothing
17:46:52 <ASau`> It all depends on what you call syntax.
17:47:04 <ASau`> If you mean lexical structure, then C isn't much harder.
17:47:28 <ASau`> If you consider valid sentences (even phrases) Forth is harder.
17:48:18 <steampunkey> for (c=getc(fd); *c!='\n'; ++i) printf("%c", c); <-- that's pretty awful
17:48:32 <steampunkey> lacking such constructs, Forth is bound to be easier
17:48:39 <ASau`> Not at all.
17:48:49 <steampunkey> invalid C though
17:49:12 <steampunkey> ASau`: you do realize that things are not necessarily the way you want them to be, even if you say it out loud?
17:49:59 <ASau`> begin getc  dup 10 <> while s" %c" printf while 1 i +! repeat true abort" failed" else ." succeded" then
17:50:05 <ASau`> Valid Forth.
17:50:25 <ASau`> Well...
17:50:27 <ASau`> Actually not.
17:50:34 <ASau`> Find the mistake.
17:50:46 <steampunkey> none of those words are defined?
17:51:00 <ASau`> All of them except getc and printf.
17:51:18 <ASau`> All of them except getc and printf are defined in standard.
17:51:24 * steampunkey finds out that Forth has a while loop. progress.
17:51:49 <ASau`> You should have read something introductory then.
17:51:57 <ASau`> Cheatsheet doesn't help it.
17:52:03 <steampunkey> facepalm
17:52:55 <steampunkey> this is futile i reckon. you won't give me anything.
17:53:15 <ASau`> Why cannot you use your web search skills?
17:53:23 <ASau`> dpANS isn't hard to find.
17:53:39 <ASau`> You can find even newer standard draft.
17:54:05 <steampunkey> ASau`: i already had the tab opened before i got here. and that's not what i asked for. therefore my conclusion stays the same
17:54:06 <ASau`> (From which you can find that Forth became even more complex...)
17:54:29 <ASau`> You should start from telling your needs.
17:54:41 <ASau`> Abstract cheatsheet won't help you.
17:54:52 <steampunkey> i told you exactly what i need
17:55:01 <ASau`> I told you what I use as cheatsheet.
17:56:02 <steampunkey> i see i really am going to have to paste you a cheatsheet
17:57:56 <steampunkey> ASau`: this is a cheatsheet: http://luauf.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/javascript_cheat_sheet.png
17:59:20 <ASau`> I cannot understand anything from it.
17:59:26 <ASau`> How does it help?
18:00:09 <ASau`> Alright, I recognise ERE, but why do I need it in "javascript" cheatsheet?
18:00:56 <steampunkey> and then i caught a fish: this big: -------o.o--------- . It was a harringe. It was red.
18:02:01 <steampunkey> if you don't know what i told you with that, finding out will be very good for you.
18:03:06 <steampunkey> mind my spelling though. here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
18:04:02 <ASau`> Why do you think that cheatsheet of quality comparable to the one for javascript will help you in any way?
18:04:07 <steampunkey> there's a whole crossection of logic and demagogy dealing with how to successfully debate, but after this, i'd argue even talk about random things.
18:05:09 <ASau`> Do you have any knowledge of formal grammars?
18:05:15 <steampunkey> i don't claim to know the whole section, but i've heard of a few logical fallacies, and i mind my manner of discussion. it helps you be objective. and that's cool.
18:05:33 <steampunkey> i'm familiar with the BNF, yes.
18:06:06 <steampunkey> i'm still not sure what the point of this is.
18:06:46 <ASau`> Forth syntax is hardly context-free.
18:08:01 <steampunkey> eg.?
18:08:42 <ASau`> E.g. conditionals and loops.
18:09:03 <steampunkey> i was hoping for code.
18:09:35 <ASau`> See above one of examples of how conditionals and loops interact.
18:10:23 <steampunkey> :-/
18:10:36 <steampunkey> ASau`: cya bro
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18:10:55 <ASau`> You can replace "i" with some random name so that the code is more or less correct.
18:15:13 <ASau`> Hm.
18:15:32 <ASau`> It is possible that Forth syntax isn't even PS.
18:16:00 <ASau`> Or is it?
18:25:35 <ASau`> It seems to depend on whether cell is fixed-width or not.
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