00:00:00 --- log: started forth/11.12.21
00:03:43 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth
01:24:55 --- join: xpololz (~xpol@50.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth
02:17:03 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 ()
02:19:18 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@122.225.105.252) joined #forth
02:35:26 --- join: newbie999 (~KVirc5.01@194.146.231.250) joined #forth
02:36:09 <newbie999> Hi. How can I shield symbol with Forth ?
02:39:41 <ttmrichter> Shield symbol?  What do you mean?
02:40:45 <newbie999> ttmrichter: Like \ in Bash
02:42:55 <ttmrichter> I'm still lost.  \n doesn't shield anything in Bash.
02:43:08 <ttmrichter> What are you trying to accomplish.  Back up a level.
02:43:25 <ttmrichter> Don't tell me the strategy you're trying to use, tell me what you're trying to accomplish with it.
02:45:40 <newbie999> ttmrichter: In Bash I can use \! and this "!" special character just print as string "!". How I can do this with Forth ?
02:46:25 <xpololz> ." i"
02:47:01 <xpololz> ." !" ( try that one )
02:50:00 <xpololz> 33 emit ( prints to your terminal or standard output the ASCII character with value 33 )
02:50:37 <newbie999> xpololz: Don't work, I have "+string" and need do this for "+" there
02:51:15 <xpololz> ?
02:51:20 <ttmrichter> I'm very confused, newbie999: you print a string as xpololz showed.
02:51:32 <ttmrichter> ." whatever string you want to type here"
02:52:01 <ttmrichter> Again, what are you trying to accomplish?  The end goal, not the strategy.
02:52:15 <koisoke> newbie999: are you forgetting the space after the open quote
02:52:25 <koisoke> because that is the only thing i could imagine to cause that to fail
02:53:20 <koisoke> ." +string" not ."+string"
02:53:45 <newbie999> Yes, i try both variants - no success
02:54:09 <koisoke> what happens and what implementation are you using
02:55:04 <newbie999> It is SP-Forth
02:55:39 <ttmrichter> Here's what I get with PFE:
02:55:39 <ttmrichter> cr ." +string" cr 
02:55:40 <ttmrichter> +string
02:55:40 <ttmrichter> ok
02:56:33 <ttmrichter> Try cutting and pasting that line (beginning with cr) into SP-Forth's console directly.
02:56:35 <ttmrichter> Not typing.
02:56:37 <ttmrichter> Cut and paste.
02:57:37 <koisoke> newbie999: ." seems to be compile-only in spf
02:57:51 <koisoke> but other than that it works fine for me
02:58:39 <koisoke> newbie999: i mean, it looks like you can only use ." inside a definition in sp-forth. if you do it at the interpreter, it will fail and that does not depend on the string contents
03:00:55 <ttmrichter> Ouch.  That's a bit of an ugly limitation.
03:01:06 <ttmrichter> Or ...
03:01:13 <ttmrichter> Actually, in retrospect probably not.
03:01:23 <ttmrichter> How often do you have to print messages interactively?
03:02:10 <koisoke> when interactively testing code that prints messages
03:03:09 <koisoke> is there some fig-forth equivalent of noname
03:03:42 <koisoke> er :noname
03:06:27 --- quit: ASau` (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:13:09 <ttmrichter> koisoke: Isn't it more usual to test words that might contain messages?
03:13:14 <ttmrichter> If so, they'll be compiled.
03:15:31 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
03:15:48 <koisoke> ttmrichter: certainly
03:16:33 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth
03:20:23 <koisoke> looks like you can use .( interactively
03:20:56 <koisoke> but obviously not in a definition if you want output at runtime
03:22:13 <koisoke> but i can't think of a situation where you would need to use ." interactively if you cannot make loops interactively
03:24:00 <koisoke> UGH. case sensitivity and all built-in words in uppercase is an awful combination
03:56:46 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
04:04:21 <DGASAU> No, there's no fig-forth equivalent.
04:04:29 <DGASAU> Don't use fig-forth.
04:04:38 <DGASAU> It has way more bugs than you think.
04:05:16 <DGASAU> As for SP-Forth, it is hard to tell.
04:05:37 <DGASAU> The implementation is the most pragmatic one when you count free implementations.
04:35:31 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth
04:42:01 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
05:08:16 <xpololz> Any recommendations of simple a program I could implement? -- Which enforces good Forth style/practice?
05:09:32 <DGASAU> Anything goes.
05:56:11 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:29:53 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth
08:32:07 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth
08:46:32 --- part: newbie999 left #forth
11:32:37 --- join: truefx (~hasan@88.250.93.191) joined #forth
11:32:46 <truefx> what is the minimal subset of forth words which can be used to define all the other words ?
11:34:49 <truefx> in forth of course :)
11:38:38 <koisoke> minimum turing complete set or the minimum to actually be usable? for the latter, a good start would be http://www.colorforth.com/forth.html
11:40:28 <xpololz> minimum turing complete set, would that not be usable too? :-)
11:41:10 <koisoke> xpololz: it would be hopelessly slow with any straightforward implementation
11:41:30 <xpololz> okay
11:55:53 <truefx> is colorforth some kind of minimal subset of forth ? so may i port to forth to any platform using minimal assembly language coding ? without special color editors ?
11:56:24 <truefx> xpololz, koisoke ?
12:11:27 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth
12:15:00 <crc> truefx: I have 31 primitives which I use to build my varient of forth
12:15:47 <truefx> what"s your variant ? is it available for dl ?
12:17:02 <truefx> and 31 is it not too much ? 
12:17:07 <crc> http://retroforth.org
12:17:23 <truefx> i ve already seen it
12:17:37 <crc> I could have used less, but 31 was the minimal set I was comfortable with 
12:17:41 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Operation timed out)
12:17:43 <truefx> for android cromium app and extensions
12:18:11 <crc> it runs on other platforms too
12:19:42 <crc> if you're looking for a minimal base, eforth may be worthwhile
12:25:22 --- quit: truefx (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
12:26:24 --- join: truefx (~hasan@88.250.93.191) joined #forth
12:26:40 <truefx> crc, yep thats what im looking for
12:27:29 <crc> eForth is the smallest conventional Forth I'm aware of in terms of primitives (30 IIRC)
12:27:37 <truefx> crc, in fact ill implement my variant in my own native language but i need some maybe radical changes in design. I have problem with delimiters
12:28:41 --- join: ASau (~user@93-80-123-145.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth
12:28:46 <crc> how so?
12:29:44 <truefx> hmmm let me try to find a way to explain
12:31:39 <truefx> can you follow if i use some Turkish words in control structures 3-4
12:32:05 <crc> I'll try
12:32:13 <ASau> Shoot, and we'll see.
12:32:40 <truefx> if ... else .... then ; is in my language ise ... degilse .... sonra 
12:33:14 <ASau> (Doesn't "son" mean "end"?..)
12:33:25 <truefx> case .... of ....endof ..... of ... endof ..... endcase
12:33:38 <truefx> yep son means end sonra mean later, then
12:34:30 <truefx> but if i use sonra then in if structure it makes if structure somehow broken for humans
12:34:35 <truefx> semantically
12:35:21 <truefx> so in my implementation it should be ise ...... degilse ......     (dot) to end structure 
12:35:58 <truefx> but same same delimiter should be in case too
12:36:02 <truefx> (dot) 
12:36:44 <ASau> Do you mean instead of "endcase"?
12:36:44 <truefx> case (eger) ..... of (ise) ..... endof ( , ) ...... endcase ( . ) 
12:36:49 <truefx> yep
12:36:56 <ASau> No, that doesn't work well.
12:37:25 <truefx> cant i overcome this even if i complicate parser somehow ?
12:37:42 <ASau> You can, but that makes parsing harder.
12:38:12 <truefx> and cant i  simplify this complexity using a color editor ?
12:38:16 <ASau> Also, dot is used to print numbers.
12:38:16 <truefx> to normal level ?
12:38:26 <truefx> i ll change it too
12:38:46 <truefx> its not an issue just replacement
12:38:52 <ASau> Well...
12:39:08 <truefx> but using same demiliters in different control structures its an issue
12:39:13 <ASau> Before you understand how "if" and "case" are implemented,
12:39:13 <ASau> I suggest not to go further.
12:39:41 <truefx> i have already read about gforths manual 
12:39:56 <truefx> about control structures mostly
12:40:08 <truefx> defining your own structrues etc. 
12:40:12 <ASau> In manual or in source?
12:40:25 <truefx> not in source 
12:40:27 <truefx> yet
12:40:42 <ASau> I don't see what you could understand then.
12:40:53 <truefx> just warming up  3 days of acquintace with forth
12:41:02 <truefx> i do a lot in fact 
12:42:59 <xpololz> http://pastebin.com/YPkkew53 -- could anyone have a quick look at this one? I don't quite why it's not working
12:43:05 <xpololz> insertion sort, doesn't sort very well.
12:46:40 <ASau> xpololz: I suggest you implement "@swap" that swaps memory cells.
12:46:52 <ASau> It simplifies definition a lot.
12:47:01 <ASau> Then go back :)
12:47:41 <xpololz> thanks
12:53:43 <xpololz> I still don't quite get it though :-/
12:56:18 <ASau> Define @swap that exchange two cells in memory.
12:56:23 <ASau> ( ptr1 ptr2 -- )
12:56:35 <xpololz> i did that, no problem :p
12:56:35 <ASau> Then redefine your sort using @swap.
12:56:39 <xpololz> and it works fine too
12:56:51 <ASau> Now post what you got. :)
12:57:12 <xpololz> http://pastebin.com/1ADQ6VkU
12:58:11 <ASau> Index of your loop runs from 1 to (n-2).
12:58:16 <ASau> Is that intentional?
12:58:57 <xpololz> oh, yeah it does, no it wasn't intentional
12:59:20 <xpololz> I was, err.. thinking wrong.
12:59:24 <xpololz> :-)
13:00:18 <ASau> Another thing that could simplify is using pointers instead of indices.
13:00:24 <ASau> You have "cell+" exactly for that.
13:08:39 <xpololz> http://pastebin.com/mmKNc82c
13:09:54 <ASau> "over @ over @" looks more regular.
13:11:30 <xpololz> yeah
13:12:38 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-069-138-048.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
13:12:45 <ASau> Also, I don't think it's insertion sort,
13:12:54 <ASau> you're comparing neighbouring cells.
13:14:59 <xpololz> that's true, stil lexpected it to sort it all out though
13:16:10 <xpololz> but it's semantics?
13:17:54 <xpololz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Insertion-sort-example-300px.gif
13:18:43 <ASau> Well...
13:19:18 <ASau> Since it comes that it's hard to you, I suggest you write it
13:19:18 <ASau> in C, Pascal, Python, or other algoloid language first,
13:19:22 <ASau> then translate it into Forth.
13:19:46 <xpololz> I've done that before.
13:20:17 <ASau> E.g. introduce "void swap(int*, int*)" and write it using the latter.
13:20:28 <ASau> Get it working.
13:32:30 <xpololz> huh
13:32:52 <xpololz> yes, done that too
13:50:57 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
13:52:34 <xpololz> thanks for help though
13:52:38 <xpololz> :-)
14:27:24 <ASau> got it working?
14:31:21 <xpololz> nop :-/
14:34:31 <ASau> Alright, can you write in C the routine you'd like to have in Forth?
14:34:43 <xpololz> sure
14:34:58 <ASau> Do it, make it work, and paste the result.
14:35:19 <xpololz> I've got it in ada too, generic
14:35:35 <xpololz> but hold on
14:35:43 <ASau> Well... That's more distant.
15:04:26 <xpololz> damn stray errors.. I don't get how this happens
15:10:09 --- quit: truefx (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
15:20:06 <xpololz> using UTF-8 too..
15:20:34 <xpololz> anyways
15:20:37 <xpololz> http://pastebin.com/2gEsNPCu
15:20:41 <xpololz> works as intended
15:21:14 <xpololz> not much of a "novel" or masterpiece but.
15:26:51 --- join: truefx (~hasan@88.250.93.191) joined #forth
15:27:23 <truefx> what is the function of - " - in ." .......... " ?
15:27:29 <truefx> second " ?
15:27:37 <truefx> its not a word then what ?
15:27:44 <truefx> for compiler
15:36:34 <ASau> It's just a delimiter.
15:36:54 <ASau> xpololz: alright, now try to traslate that into Forth directly.
15:37:01 <ASau> xpololz: without changing algorithm.
15:37:14 <truefx> its not separated by space
15:37:34 <truefx> why ?
15:37:58 <ASau> Because it should incorporate spaces in between.
15:38:07 <ASau> ." like this"
15:38:24 <ASau> ."  and  like  this    "
15:40:35 <xpololz> ASau, well, I used same source when I implemented both the forth version and C version -- my head.
15:40:46 <xpololz> so to me it looks pretty much like the same.
15:40:51 <ASau> That doesn't tell anything.
15:41:26 <xpololz> I mean I pretty much see a direct translation.
15:41:35 <xpololz> from what I've already done in Forth and the C code.
15:42:12 <ASau> By the way, do you see that you can move declaration of j inside loop?
15:42:39 <xpololz> yes I see that.
15:42:48 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 ()
15:42:59 <ASau> Do it then :)
15:43:21 <ASau> Next.
15:43:23 <xpololz> int j = i; ?
15:43:28 <ASau> Right.
15:43:32 <ASau> Next.
15:43:42 <ASau> Pass -Wconversion to your cc.
15:43:51 <ASau> You will be surprised.
15:45:25 <xpololz> hmm, howcome?
15:45:37 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-069-146-225.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
15:48:41 <ASau> Have you run it?
15:48:49 <xpololz> yeah
15:48:52 <xpololz> no difference though
15:49:04 <ASau> cc --version?
15:49:17 <xpololz> 4.6.1
15:49:39 <ASau> Add -Wall -Wextra too.
15:50:11 <xpololz> still nothing
15:50:20 <xpololz> except warning unused argc and argv.. :-)
15:51:50 <ASau> l00n1x?
15:51:56 <xpololz> y
15:52:10 <ASau> Alright, they can break anything.
15:52:32 <ASau> What is the type of this expression "numbers[i]"?
15:52:52 <xpololz> pointer to integer ?
15:53:01 <ASau> Really?
15:53:03 <ASau> Why?
15:53:17 <xpololz> integer* :-)
15:53:22 <ASau> Wrong.
15:53:40 <ASau> Go and think.
15:54:18 <ASau> When you find right answer, you'll understand why Forth sucks.
15:55:41 <xpololz> well, it's.. a memory cell..
15:55:59 <xpololz> it's referring to the content's of a memory cell.
15:56:17 <xpololz> which is of type integer.
15:56:19 <ASau> The question is about the type of the expression, no more, no less.
15:56:35 <ASau> I don't need semantics.
15:57:54 <xpololz> type_of_expr ::= ????
15:58:04 <xpololz> ? | ? | ?
16:01:19 <ASau> Yes, exactly.
16:01:29 <ASau> What is the type of the said expression?
16:03:50 <ASau> Also, I seriously doubt that you did run "cc -Wconversion" on your file.
16:04:28 <xpololz> howcome?
16:05:06 <ASau> Because I know what the behaviour is.
16:05:26 <xpololz> why would I not do it?
16:05:40 <ASau> Did you or did you not?
16:05:46 <xpololz> I did.
16:05:46 <ASau> Run it and see.
16:05:59 <ASau> It produces more than 2 warnings.
16:06:24 <ASau> Or better, it produces exactly one warning, if you don't add -Wall -Wextra.
16:06:41 <xpololz> I don't get that warning.
16:07:09 <ASau> Then you should go and find non-broken compiler.
16:09:20 <ASau> Just for the record, you either lie or use broken compiler.
16:09:20 <ASau> In reality you see something this:
16:09:23 <ASau> cc -Wconversion -o /tmp/xpololz /tmp/xpololz.c 
16:09:23 <ASau> /tmp/xpololz.c: In function 'sort':
16:09:23 <ASau> /tmp/xpololz.c:33:27: warning: comparison between pointer and integer
16:09:50 <ASau> Now go and think what the type of expression "numbers[i]" is.
16:10:11 <xpololz> oh, actually
16:10:15 <xpololz> neither of those.
16:10:42 <xpololz> I edited that part.
16:12:20 <ASau> Then you're on your own.
16:12:49 <xpololz> and btw, I'm into forth for no other reason than the paradigm..
16:13:21 <ASau> Forth uses imperative paradigm, it doesn't differ from C in this respect.
16:14:49 <xpololz> oh well, it's not a paradigm in your eyes, fair enough. I'm into it because I want to learn about stack machines..
16:16:37 <ASau> Forth is wrong approach to stack machines.
16:18:30 <xpololz> okay .. ?
16:28:32 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth
16:31:10 <xpololz> anyways, I believe the expression is a pointer to an integer because it can be dereferenced.
16:32:05 <ASau> I'm not going to discuss code you're the only one to see.
16:33:54 <xpololz> ?
16:34:08 <ASau> <xpololz> I edited that part.
16:34:37 <xpololz> -.-
16:34:49 <ASau> If you are incapable of discussing the code you publish yourself,
16:34:55 <ASau> there's no point to continue.
16:35:03 <xpololz> I'm obviously referring to the code I published.
16:35:38 <xpololz> though it's no big difference between the edited part and the published.
16:35:41 <xpololz> but nevermind.
16:36:21 <ASau> There's big difference.
16:36:38 <ASau> Published code is incorrect and compiler diagnoses it.
16:37:32 <ASau> And you talk about the code after you changed it.
16:37:47 <ASau> What the changes are exactly is unknown.
16:37:47 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
16:38:08 <xpololz> that was a glip. I don't know why it happened.
16:38:26 <xpololz> also when I published it, I told you it was no masterpiece.
16:38:43 <xpololz> I was asking for some help because I couldn't get the Forth code working.
16:39:15 <xpololz> I made that C code in order to show you semantics of the Forth code (I thought).
16:39:22 <ASau> That doesn't mean that I should talk about code that is different from what you're talking about.
16:39:24 <xpololz> what I wanted it to do.
16:39:36 <xpololz> no it doesn't.
16:39:45 <xpololz> It's not an excuse.
16:40:11 <ASau> And I asked you to write code in C, not to illustrate algorithm.
16:40:37 <ASau> If you cannot understand what you're asked for, there's no point to continue conversation.
16:40:43 <xpololz> well, I missunderstood that part. was C syntax and compiled by a C compiler.
16:40:58 <xpololz> so there's no point, ok.
16:50:09 --- quit: truefx (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:52:12 --- quit: Fox78 (Remote host closed the connection)
16:53:12 --- join: Fox78 (~fox@123.118.158.161) joined #forth
17:04:44 --- join: truefx (~hasan@88.250.93.191) joined #forth
18:00:27 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@122.225.105.253) joined #forth
18:12:33 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Operation timed out)
18:34:49 <truefx> how can i detect and display keys pressed in other applications ? like a keylogger ?
18:39:23 <ASau> How can you do that in any other language?
18:48:04 --- quit: truefx (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:27:59 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 ()
19:51:39 --- join: nighty___ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth
19:56:30 --- join: cwardell (~cwardell@pool-108-5-120-252.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth
20:17:51 --- quit: nighty___ (Quit: leaving)
20:22:38 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@dslb-178-004-069-250.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
20:43:11 --- join: nighty___ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth
21:10:39 --- join: truefx (~hasan@88.250.93.191) joined #forth
21:55:52 --- quit: nighty___ (Quit: leaving)
23:18:27 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/11.12.21