00:00:00 --- log: started forth/11.12.17 00:09:22 --- quit: swiley (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 00:16:18 --- join: swiley (~swiley@105.sub-75-197-88.myvzw.com) joined #forth 00:53:35 --- quit: Gmind (Quit: Leaving.) 00:53:55 --- join: Gmind (~nevermind@123.16.97.79) joined #forth 01:09:28 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@58.56.112.86) joined #forth 01:25:00 --- quit: Gmind (Quit: Leaving.) 01:36:26 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 02:01:26 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:02:49 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 02:08:00 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 02:33:52 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:01:54 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 03:02:55 --- join: ttmrichter-wtf-i (~ttmrichte@58.56.112.86) joined #forth 03:04:00 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 03:05:55 --- quit: ttmrichter-wtf-i (Client Quit) 03:07:02 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@113.106.101.45) joined #forth 03:58:02 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@178-191-174-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 03:59:25 --- join: xpololz (~xpol@50.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 04:20:47 --- quit: angstrom (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 04:58:33 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:07:58 --- join: angstrom (~Unknown@unaffiliated/angstrom) joined #forth 05:29:11 --- join: ASau` (~user@89-178-0-42.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 05:32:51 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:34:16 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 06:02:04 --- quit: xpololz (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 07:00:55 --- join: xpololz (~xpol@50.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 08:06:21 there's now LOCATE or VIEW command in gforth? 08:07:02 anything similar? 08:10:11 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: Leaving) 08:11:00 WH and WHERE too 08:24:07 --- quit: [Forth] (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08:39:49 hi 08:40:35 to nighty- & markIV, i made a skeleton to forth in gnu-as, so will be! (any help apreciated..) 08:41:10 (mips pic32, that's why you two) 08:42:35 (and to make some publicity for production stable cpustickos, basic!:) 09:13:44 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Operation timed out) 09:29:48 --- quit: yunfan (Quit: leaving) 10:08:45 --- join: davazp (~user@89.100.226.133) joined #forth 10:30:21 --- quit: davazp (Read error: Operation timed out) 10:49:11 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 10:52:41 --- quit: nighty__ (Client Quit) 11:01:54 --- join: _spt_ (~postmaste@host-92-4-98-99.as43234.net) joined #forth 11:01:55 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 11:01:55 --- join: _spt_ (~postmaste@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 11:02:05 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 11:02:08 --- join: davazp (~user@89.100.226.133) joined #forth 12:16:48 <_spt_> evening folks, 12:17:41 hello 12:23:32 hello 12:27:28 <_spt_> wow, two hellos in one night! 12:30:28 hello 12:30:29 :) 12:34:50 hello :) 12:49:02 <_spt_> far to many hello's now, we will have to define a word 12:59:19 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 13:00:11 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 13:43:28 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:45:14 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 13:51:50 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 13:52:45 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 13:55:53 hi! 13:59:51 --- join: davazp` (~user@89.100.226.133) joined #forth 14:01:25 --- quit: davazp (Read error: Operation timed out) 14:06:28 --- join: davazp`` (~user@89.100.226.133) joined #forth 14:08:19 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 14:08:51 --- quit: davazp` (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 14:09:51 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 14:16:19 hi 14:17:36 "The word , ("comma") stores the top stack item into the next available dictionary location, and increments the data space pointer by one cell." -- next dictionary location? they mean the next data space location associated to the designated dictionary entry? 14:18:05 right? 14:18:57 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:20:16 <_spt_> thats correct in the Forth I'm using (Jupiter Ace, C, is one byte , is two. 14:20:45 <_spt_> not sure what it is on a windows/linux forth 14:21:25 * _spt_ is fixing errors in the Jupiter Ace manaul as he types 14:26:56 okay 14:27:47 <_spt_> in gforth -> 14:27:53 <_spt_> here . 14:28:00 <_spt_> 2 , 14:28:04 <_spt_> here . 14:28:29 <_spt_> and you will see two byte increse 14:28:38 <_spt_> *increase 14:28:47 <_spt_> in used space 14:36:38 one byte* 14:36:40 yeah :-) 14:36:45 thanks 14:37:24 xpololz: `cell' bytes generally, I suppose 14:38:31 actually, 8 bytes. 14:39:05 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 14:39:06 which is one cell on my system 14:39:35 <_spt_> I guess it depends on what version of forth you use 8 bit , 16 bit 32 bit system 14:40:27 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 14:41:43 yeah 14:41:57 nice, I have been writing a toy Forth system for i386, and I am going to try to bootstrap it 14:42:09 that's exciting 14:42:44 <_spt_> I'm in a time warp and only work in Jupiter Ace Forth 8bit ! :-) 14:43:43 Yeah, Forth lovers do seem living in time wrap. 14:44:03 No fresh idea in decades. 14:44:55 <_spt_> as they say in the UK .. if it aint broke dont fix it 14:45:45 I am programming in Forth like 'retrocomputing' enjoying, so it is 14:46:22 it is the only thing I have ever written in Forth, but it was fun 14:46:53 _spt_: Forth programmers are just blind to notice broken things. 14:47:08 <_spt_> lol .. 14:48:14 Try using Forth for any serious things and you'll run into some limitation that is there due to bug. 14:49:14 Like anti-files in gforth. 14:49:31 Or completely broken exception and input mechanism in ficl. 14:50:42 Not to mention fundamental inefficiencies like "word". 14:52:22 then, don't use it for any serious thing 14:53:06 Since some time I don't :) 14:53:52 don't misunderstand me, I would not do either 14:55:09 <_spt_> what about paid for Forth, swift and the one from mpe? 14:56:44 If there's no reasonable quality free software, then why there should be commercial one? 14:57:05 Why do you think there should be a miracle? 14:57:55 And, by the way, it sounds as well-known "Forth miracle" already: 14:58:10 all good code must be commercial. 15:00:53 ASau`: did you used to write forth code before? 15:01:25 Yes, I have Forth code that went into production. 15:02:04 and, was it painful too or, some time ago the scenario was better? 15:03:10 It was mostly indifferent. 15:03:54 It happened just because the problem was small enough to cope with simplistic tools, 15:04:03 and Forth could handle it. 15:05:39 I am not a Forth expert, but I feel that the policy 'all is an integer' does not scale very well, specially 15:06:33 You're right, it doesn't. 15:07:58 But with some discipline you can work around it. 15:08:36 This reveals what language is actually the one that requires "bondage and discipline." 15:09:01 however, it can be so fun :), what other language could I write an implementation on the metal and bootstrap it easily? 15:09:20 Any. 15:09:57 Writing a parser isn't hard, unless you have no clue about it. 15:10:26 yep, I learnt that about discipline. In the beginning, it was a chaos of non-sense words 15:10:39 latest code was quite more smart and ordered 15:11:39 in fact, I wrote some piece of code very beautiful surprisely :-) 15:11:41 a example: 15:11:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125663 15:12:08 it was part of my keyboard driver 15:12:30 it was the map between raw scancodes and "something like ascii" keys 15:13:19 Oh, damn. 15:13:32 How is it fundamentally different from s" qwerty..." s, ? 15:14:46 there some exception for special keys, and it seems like ascii art :-) 15:15:09 it was an ugly C array previously 15:15:54 You can do c, as well. 15:16:50 yep, I do c, actually 15:16:58 it is a older version 15:17:30 the code, if someone has free time and want to hack Forth 15:18:00 is placed at https://github.com/davazp/eulex 15:18:50 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: Operation timed out) 15:21:35 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 15:53:35 --- part: _spt_ left #forth 16:11:50 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@58.56.112.86) joined #forth 16:19:19 --- quit: davazp`` (Remote host closed the connection) 16:24:12 --- join: truefx (~hasan@88.250.93.191) joined #forth 16:24:45 is there a way to define words with spaces ? 16:25:03 No. 16:25:08 Only low-level hacks. 16:25:29 Why do you want it anyway? 16:25:30 any documentation about it ? 16:25:37 low level hacks 16:26:18 i ll build my own compiler 16:26:36 thats why i ve started learining forth 16:27:15 It would be better to fix at least one existing. 16:27:28 my first few hours and its very similar to what i wanna do but i wanna have variables words with spaces 16:27:42 Why and what for? 16:28:27 coz it will be more like a natural language not just keywords or control structures 16:29:00 and it will not be in English so i cant try to modify existing compilers 16:29:44 Nothing stops you from introducing international support into existing compiler. 16:30:16 Given that you're using a variant of latin script, it isn't hard. 16:30:39 there are so many international compilers available but we dont still have a national compiler sad isnt it ? in 2011 16:31:09 yes i am using latin alphabet 16:31:17 Turkish language 16:31:20 I know. 16:31:35 the sentences are in reverse order 16:31:59 to screen something print. 16:32:11 SOV languages are the most frequent ones, IIRC. 16:32:21 sov ? 16:33:38 and 1 more question 16:34:15 may i get rid of postfix notation for math expressions in stack based languages ? 16:34:44 It isn't that problematic as it seems. 16:34:55 But you lose certain properties. 16:35:36 why postfix notation chosen in forth ? coz of performance issues ? how stack works ? 16:36:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93object%E2%80%93verb 16:36:16 Because stack is natural for postfix notation. 16:36:54 "Why" questions are the most trickiest ones. 16:37:14 The most probable answer is "because it happened so." 16:39:22 coz why questions necessitates real answers starting with coz. Not a stereotype answer like it is like that. 16:40:11 If you're trying to write a compiler you should know models of computation, 16:40:36 im an electronics and communicaiton engineer 16:40:38 at least up until push-down and stack automata, if you're dealing with Forth. 16:41:15 In fact, you need more. 16:41:42 Knowing lambda calculi and monads helps. 16:41:52 so im no so familiar with software engineering jargon but fine with low level languages and also hardware description languages i can follow compiler constructions books easily 16:42:23 those are in the past 10 years ago i ve attended those courses 16:42:31 It isn't "software engineering jargon." 16:43:07 That belongs to elementary education in this domain. 16:44:36 i see i ll find a few books about it too 16:44:57 first i need to read about forth more 16:45:24 i m using gforth in ubuntu seeminly some words are missing in my implementation 16:45:26 If you want to deal with compilers, you need to read about languages and compilers first. 16:46:04 i ve already did and made a toy compiler following lets built a compiler crenbaw 16:46:19 No. Not Crenshaw. 16:46:27 yeah 16:46:29 This is wrong book to read. 16:46:35 exactly 16:46:40 Get the Dragon Book. 16:47:03 in a few days one can get something working thx to it 16:47:15 i like it and i ve read dragon books too 16:47:28 heh :P 16:48:51 someone in compiler channel told me to learn stack based languages like forth , since they are easier to implement and also structure is similar to Turkish 16:49:08 Reverse polish notation 16:49:27 so here i am :) 16:50:04 Well... 16:50:15 It doesn't actually work so. 16:50:36 is there any other implementations in ubuntu other than gforth ? 16:50:45 You think that SOV order helps, it might, 16:50:46 and how does it work actually ? 16:50:49 but it can be otherwise. 16:51:31 Yes, there're other implementations that work on l00n1x. 16:52:05 at least im getting acquinted with another language different from procedural ones. gives an overview 16:52:19 Forth is procedural language. 16:52:31 which one do you use ? 16:53:17 i meant to say different from c and pascal 16:54:19 I support my own compiler when I want to excercise in Forth. 16:54:41 what do you mean ? 16:54:49 http://apforth.sf.net/ 16:56:01 It was easier to fork and fix bugs myself than fix it in original pForth. 16:56:23 does it have deb package ? 16:56:34 No. 16:56:37 Why should it? 16:56:40 k 16:56:42 You can just build it and install. 16:56:43 getting it 16:58:18 so you are Aleksej Saushev 17:11:15 --- join: davazp (~user@89.100.226.133) joined #forth 17:27:43 --- quit: xpololz (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:42:56 --- join: fantazo_ (~fantazo@91-115-175-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 17:46:35 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 18:19:41 --- quit: swiley (Quit: swiley) 18:24:00 --- join: swiley (~swiley@105.sub-75-197-88.myvzw.com) joined #forth 18:57:10 --- quit: swiley (Quit: swiley) 18:59:55 --- quit: ASau` (Remote host closed the connection) 19:00:41 --- join: ASau` (~user@89-178-106-228.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 19:33:08 --- quit: davazp (Remote host closed the connection) 19:55:50 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 20:33:10 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: Operation timed out) 20:56:57 --- quit: truefx (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:37:48 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 23:31:51 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 23:39:56 --- join: fantazo__ (~fantazo@91-115-175-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 23:45:34 --- quit: fantazo_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/11.12.17