00:00:00 --- log: started forth/11.12.11 00:00:44 --- quit: foxes (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:01:07 --- join: foxes (~fox@123.121.66.173) joined #forth 00:20:12 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:24:44 It is, if you patch all bugs you meet. 02:58:53 --- join: kidfoo (~kidfoo@49.204.23.244) joined #forth 02:59:19 --- quit: kidfoo (Changing host) 02:59:19 --- join: kidfoo (~kidfoo@unaffiliated/neenaoffline) joined #forth 03:01:40 --- join: xpololz (~xpol@50.80-203-124.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 03:13:14 --- join: yunfan (~jyf@unaffiliated/yunfan) joined #forth 03:33:03 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 03:47:15 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 04:04:25 anyone tried android forth? 04:04:35 Yes. 04:04:41 It doesn't work for me. 04:08:28 which version do you tried? 04:08:31 the one that hosted on sourceforge? 04:08:40 or in appbrain's android app market? 04:08:45 SF. 04:08:46 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:09:50 i have tried both 04:10:07 ASau`: have you found that version on SF has a bug? 04:10:38 I haven't got further than just trying out. 04:10:43 their over acts like rot 04:10:51 why? 04:10:52 And it didn't work in the first place. 04:11:12 its based on j2eeforth , so wont have compatible problems i think 04:11:13 Because if it can't start up, then it can just die. 04:11:33 which platform are you using ? 04:11:53 I don't remember. 04:12:14 And, honestly, Forth is that simplistic that it shouldn't be that sensitive. 04:14:45 and you can try this one http://www.appbrain.com/app/androidforth/hu.gusthy.android.forth 04:15:06 ASau`: this one has some example which attract me 04:15:07 but i cant contact to the author to tell him my ideas 04:16:06 it can easily invoke the android system's ui widgets which let developer can easily making small tools 04:17:40 i hope the author can add more widget in it, and make a on board tool for developer coding , testing on the target machine , and then generate a .apk file for developer , its just pack the runtime and source file (forth script or dictionary image) 04:28:47 Well... 04:29:07 what do you think? 04:29:10 If it needs separate text editor, then it is worse that DragonForth for PalmOS. 04:29:31 In this case I could go with more powerful language. 04:30:56 * ASau` shrugs. 04:31:28 i think author can give an ide for sale 04:31:45 an ide with word auto-complete is easy in forth 04:31:57 I'm not sure if I want to invest time into dealing with closed-source Forth that is most probably full of bugs. 04:32:04 and is very useful for those who coding on a touch screen phone like me :] 04:32:24 I have experience with DragonForth. 04:32:50 I think that I'd rather invest some time and get my own Forth running on Android. 04:33:04 and i think for making small tool on android, forth is extreme good 04:33:26 I doubt that. 04:34:18 You have access to JVM, this suggests better ways than turning it into Forth. 04:35:16 ASau`: i dont care which version, i just need 3 things: 1, ans compactible and android platform api especially gui; 2, onboard developing ; 3, an maintainer 04:35:53 ASau`: is it? i have read an article which show the difficult of porting forth on jvm 04:36:38 That's the point. 04:37:04 Since you have JVM which is more powerful that Forth VM, 04:37:04 there's little sense in forcing Forth onto it. 04:38:00 JVM also opens quite a lot of more interesting opportunities. 04:38:14 Like Scheme, Common Lisp, Scala. 04:40:36 yes , but forth is efficient and so small , its only ask developer to use their minds to make good application, 04:41:43 Forth is neither small nor efficient. 04:42:04 ASau`: you know, i have once ask my workmate to developed an encrypt tools for me , which i need to generated my gmail password, its fat and slow 04:42:11 what? 04:42:34 What "what?" 04:42:49 ASau`: the prev sentense you said 04:43:02 That Forth is neither small nor efficient? 04:43:06 That's true. 04:43:08 ASau`: yes 04:43:38 but i see android forth using such little size code 04:43:50 i mean compare to those java app 04:44:02 Code size doesn't matter. 04:44:24 You're comparing bare-bone system to something capable of doing very complex things. 04:45:21 My Java application that dials list of phone numbers and plays a pre-recorded message is very small. 04:45:22 then the efficient? 04:45:32 Try doing that in Forth. 04:45:32 how much in size? 04:45:42 Around 50k. 04:46:00 Maybe less. 04:46:00 its not *very* small 04:46:04 Try doing that in Forth. 04:46:08 We'll see. 04:46:18 check android forth, its just 37k 04:46:26 with a full system in it 04:46:52 and for making simple tool, its just my choice 04:47:22 Actually, since the source is around 20k, I think that it is less. 04:47:41 ASau`: there's another problem, if you want to do onboard developing, forth make you code less :] than java 04:47:54 That's wrong too. 04:48:22 You're comparing bare-bone system to much more capable one. 04:49:05 but i have said for simple tools, like the example i have mentioned that a simple encrypt tools 04:49:20 Simple encryption isn't encryption. 04:49:58 ASau`: of cause its not that easy to make a genery purpose rss client :] 04:49:59 RC4 is laughable by modern standards. 04:50:36 And most Forth programmers didn't go further than RC4. 04:50:52 ASau`: anyway i dont like java the syntax and the speed, can you make a forth on android follow my suggestion? 04:51:02 Java isn't slower than Forth. 04:51:42 ASau`: i know your point , just some stupid programmer make slower application :] 04:51:58 You can't go faster than implementation allows, 04:52:21 and with Forth you can't go faster than your compiler allows you. 04:52:37 So far I don't know any whole-program optimizing compiler for Forth. 04:52:54 More so, many Forth idioms don't allow the possibility. 04:53:05 Or make it very hard. 04:54:00 ASau`: you can just make it and publish it, maybe user dont care whole-program optimizing 04:54:20 ASau`: for me , i care on onboard developing :] 04:54:42 Get Kawa, it has android version, and you're there. 04:54:47 ASau`: and i dont want to use public private protect ,etc :] 04:55:01 Don't use it then! 04:55:24 If you don't care of it, make all your record fields public. 04:55:32 the gnu kawa? 04:56:23 I don't know if that's gnu project. 04:56:25 http://per.bothner.com/blog/2009/AndroidHelloScheme/ 04:57:40 http://www.gnu.org/s/kawa/ you ask me to get kawa, its the kawa language framework's homepage 05:01:06 why you just recommend lisp familly languege to me in this channel 05:02:23 Because they are as small but orders of magnitude more powerful. 05:03:00 E.g. LispMe is more powerful than DragonForth within the same restrictions of PalmOS. 05:03:37 but its just the dragonForth's problem 05:03:48 No. 05:03:54 It is general problem of Forth. 05:05:02 Scheme has more regular structure, it is simpler language, 05:05:02 and it has elaborate optimization techniques one can apply right away. 05:05:12 i heared that they tried to make lisp machine , but its not that efficient 05:05:44 They didn't just try. 05:05:59 They implemented them, and those machines were efficient. 05:06:17 It's not that inefficiency drove Lisp machines off market. 05:06:21 It's the cost. 05:06:41 is it? 05:06:57 Sure. 05:07:15 And that's another problem with Forth programmers, 05:07:24 they know very little outside their own world. 05:08:43 so how about other concatenative language? like retro and factor? 05:09:06 Retro isn't any better. 05:09:14 In fact, it is even worse than ANS Forth. 05:09:32 It's more like a step back towards FIG model. 05:09:43 :] i mention that crc is here 05:09:50 I know that just fine. 05:10:08 then factor? 05:10:21 As for Factor, it is more like PostScript than Forth. 05:10:30 Or evel Lisp. 05:11:37 Also Factor needs JVM, where it was originally implemented, 05:11:42 or something with comparable features. 05:12:52 so its a hybrid one 05:12:59 when talks on jvm , how do you think on the original stack based jvm and the register based dalvik vm? 05:15:51 There's at least one paper with comparison between stack and register VMs. 05:15:58 Stack loses. 05:17:13 i am just focus on these different jvm implementation 05:19:18 I'm almost sure that there were comparison tests run. 05:19:33 But I'm not going to search them for you. :) 05:21:52 i found that you know java programming, forth and scheme, which you choose in your regually developing ? for product 05:23:41 When I have choice, I choose what I find better. 05:23:51 When I don't have choice, I just don't have choice. 05:24:17 (brainfuck ftw!) 05:24:21 just give me a better choice on your current found 05:24:30 yah, brainfuck is cool 05:33:51 Factor hasn't needed a JVM for a long time. 05:34:03 For someone who was talking about people not knowing much outside their own world… 05:34:38 I know that they implemented C++ backend. 05:39:38 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: Leaving) 05:42:12 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 05:50:04 ASau`: well sorry for cause this argue 06:04:54 --- quit: kidfoo (Quit: leaving) 07:23:25 --- quit: yunfan (Quit: leaving) 08:35:28 --- join: kidfoo (~kidfoo@49.204.23.244) joined #forth 08:51:36 --- join: _spt_ (~postmaste@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 08:51:47 <_spt_> evening folks, 09:08:23 --- quit: kidfoo (Quit: leaving) 11:27:41 --- join: kidfoo (~kidfoo@49.204.23.244) joined #forth 11:27:41 --- quit: kidfoo (Changing host) 11:27:41 --- join: kidfoo (~kidfoo@unaffiliated/neenaoffline) joined #forth 11:39:17 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@178-191-170-242.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 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