00:00:00 --- log: started forth/11.04.15 00:09:19 saper: tell that to ams, they don't have a clue that make should support it. 00:09:54 Only don't expect much, he has no clue at all. 00:10:39 wow 00:10:41 what'd I miss 00:16:02 saper: alternatively, write this: 00:16:09 make SRCDIR='$(.CURDIR)' 00:16:20 it uses VPATH 00:16:42 Even that isn't standard. 00:17:02 All thanks to idiots at the committe. 00:17:14 * DocPlatypus pulls up a chair 00:17:35 this is interesting... I recently got back into working with makefiles 00:17:45 as a website maintenance tool oddly enough 00:18:57 saper: if you have free time to waste for inventing a way to set a variable conditionaly in POSIX way, you may waste it. 00:19:24 If you don't want to waste it, either modify the source, 00:19:32 or pass it on command line as above. 00:19:43 saper: tell me what? 00:19:54 what should make "not support"? 00:21:28 Schily's make 00:21:33 conditional variables in posix make? 00:21:57 Free-man: is utter crap. 00:23:24 conditionals in posix make (ala ?= and what not) would be nice, but would be hard without breaking all make systems out there. 00:24:09 bsd make does it one way, gnu make does it another, i suspect that smake does it yet some other way 00:24:52 It is amusing how gnu folks always boasted that their make allows 00:24:52 writing leading spaces instead of HT's and then suddenly taking it back recently. 00:25:08 ASau: I prefer hard tabs for various reasons 00:25:10 "without breaking all make systems out there" 00:25:17 ASau: hm? 00:25:29 I think the BSD make allows spaces... I could be wrong 00:25:44 DocPlatypus: some versions do. 00:26:26 I think ability to build in a separate directory is important 00:26:42 gnu make supports that. 00:26:44 whatever it takes :) 00:27:01 very simple if you use autoconf and automake... 00:27:21 make dist and make distcheck also check that so is the case, with a read-only directory. 00:27:52 as for allowing spaces before a directive in gnu make, never was allowed. 00:28:07 so i can't see how we "reverted" that change "recently" 00:28:57 I rarely find "simple" and "automake" in one sentence :) 00:29:10 saper: hm? automake is very simple, what do you find hard about it? 00:29:31 (i have a meeting in 15, so if i drop out.. you know why) 00:29:48 go ahead 00:30:03 it's very simple if one looks at the Makefiles it produces 00:30:14 why would you want to look at them? 00:30:31 it isn't like cmake, or whatever produces "pretty" output either. 00:31:04 the makefiles produced by automake are highly portable, and support a lot of nice targets 00:31:16 which are part of a standard build system. 00:31:52 make all install uninstall clean check dist distcheck 00:31:59 and what not 00:32:06 as a luser, all you need to care about is really: 00:32:12 bin_PROGRAMS = hello 00:32:24 hello_SOURCES = hello.c 00:32:54 that it :-) 00:33:05 saper: basically automake is what gnu invented to overcome defects in their make, BSD make handles those problem very well without extra tools. 00:33:16 simply not true. 00:33:46 saper: read the tutorial, and you'll find that it is 00:33:49 PROG= hello 00:33:51 automake was created to handle other broken makes, like systems that did not have gnu make or bsd make. 00:33:51 I know 00:33:58 I am using BSD make features 00:33:59 .include 00:34:11 With no automake. 00:34:16 ASau: not portable. 00:34:20 ASau: one, not posix make 00:34:27 ASau: two, requires a bsd system, not everyone runs bsd. 00:34:29 ams: runs everywhere. 00:34:33 oh? 00:34:49 Even on windows. :p 00:34:58 ~ $ make 00:34:58 Makefile:2: *** missing separator. Stop. 00:34:58 ~ $ cat Makefile 00:34:58 PROG= hello 00:34:58 .include 00:35:00 nope. 00:35:09 Because your make is broken. 00:35:15 but it runs everywhere. 00:35:35 and it doesnt' work with bsd make either. 00:35:56 can't find bsd.prog.mk 00:36:00 And it's you is one of those morons who didn't fix it while being on committee. 00:36:33 fix what? 00:36:44 the include syntax? 00:36:45 make 00:36:48 it is differnet between makes. 00:37:00 posix tries to document -standard- behaviour, this isn't standard. 00:37:05 target: prerequisit 00:37:09 command 00:37:10 is. 00:37:13 which is what posix documents. 00:37:16 now meeting. 00:37:18 neither is automake 00:37:29 automake produces posix make files. 00:37:40 it isn't ment to be run by people installing your program 00:38:29 it is funny that people complain that the output is weird from automake, but the same people manage to still use lex/yacc which has totally unreadable output... go figure. 00:39:05 ASau: but hey, i can suggest standardising a include directive for make in posix. 00:39:12 will be: include file 00:39:15 like in gnu make... 00:39:31 Yeah, that doesn't break any make system around :D 00:39:43 ASau: you wanted me to "fix" make 00:39:51 It should be 00:39:55 .include "filename" 00:40:00 to be standard. 00:40:12 Plus you didn't standardize .OBJDIR behaviour. 00:40:17 ;) 00:40:24 seeing that gnu make is the most common one, it makes more sense for "include file" 00:40:29 Thus requiring your idiotic hacks like automake. 00:41:16 if you say so, first you tell totally bollocks things about make.. 00:41:39 then you complain that some feature is not standardise, but when one suggests a modifcation you complain that this will break make systems.. 00:41:47 really, you are bad at trolling... 00:42:00 You didn't fix recent fallout from new gmake in field. 00:42:01 automake is about as iditoic as bsd ports 00:42:05 At least. 00:42:12 what recent fall out? 00:42:18 and why do you expect me to fix it? 00:42:32 See above about spaces instead of standard HT's. 00:42:38 ASau: again, not true. 00:42:53 Like I said, you don't have a clue. 00:43:25 nope, seeing that there was no such fallout, seeing that gnu make has never supported spaces before directives. 00:43:27 meeting. 00:43:29 cheerio 00:44:19 wait, ams are you involved in gnumake dev? 00:45:06 anyone, is he? 00:45:13 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cm-6-7c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 00:46:36 He is not involved in development. 00:46:41 k 00:47:20 That's why he denies what the rest of the world knows. 00:47:39 well, i'm jut tryin to resolve his bigotry to smake 00:48:06 He's just an ardent gnu fanatic. 00:48:11 ya 00:48:19 oh, and posix moron. 00:49:13 schily documents gnumake's problems and avoids them. 00:49:43 There're many problems with gmake. 00:49:48 ya 00:49:51 i'm aware 00:50:06 i'm not a fan of gnu stuff 00:50:18 the concepts are ok, but implementation is problematic 00:51:05 overly complicated usually 00:51:13 Some people even think about replacing it with some Scheme 00:51:14 or Prolog stuff, so that it does at least the same with less pain. 00:51:22 ya 00:51:34 I know at least three such (idle) projects. 00:51:35 and the dist that uses haskel; that's neat 00:53:03 I agree that sometimes the GNU project bungles a thing or two 00:53:09 more than a few 00:53:26 but in general, their goal of free software for every task is getting along quite nicely 00:53:26 i think they've moved away from Tao rule #1 00:53:30 one thing well 00:53:35 troo 00:54:14 many of the more useful free software programs aren't part of the GNU project themselves, but the OS they run under (here) is 00:54:40 I refer to it as GNU/Linux, or if the kernel isn't relevant, "a GNU variant" 00:54:52 gnucc isnt c :) 00:55:23 In case of Forth context, LLVM suggests much better world. 00:55:32 why? 00:55:50 Because you get free code generator of reasonable quality. 00:55:56 in the llvm? 00:56:05 Right. 00:56:08 so you're think of a portage of forth to llvm? 00:56:11 *ing 00:56:16 Sure. 00:56:18 k 00:56:40 But first I kick 0.4 out. 00:56:44 i'm subscribed to its freshmeat page; i'll look into it next time 00:56:48 4 of what? 00:57:09 It looks like saper hasn't tested it yet. 00:57:46 saper: just in case, main changes are in parsing: 00:58:10 saper is your project? 00:58:20 you're presuming i know much :) 00:58:24 heh 00:58:47 saper: "Word" may be broken, but I don't know if you still want to use it instead of "parse" and "parse-word". 00:59:05 saper: and I've rewritten FPN parser. 00:59:39 saper: and changed number parsing to traditional way: try integers first. 00:59:59 why not parse numbers the C way? 0x 0 1-0? 01:00:05 1-9 01:00:16 Because. 01:00:38 because is a crooked thought :) 01:00:44 why? 01:00:51 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 01:01:44 "C" doesn't have the same semantics. 01:02:05 IMHO that's a weak statement to avoid porting an idear 01:02:28 Which idea? 01:02:46 not porting bc of semantics (meaning) 01:03:01 : number hex? octal? decimal ; 01:03:10 I don't want 062 denote 50 when my current base is decimal. 01:03:20 ok 01:03:39 then it's not a private project meant to advance Forthology :) 01:03:44 nor public 01:04:09 IMHO Forth is in the condition it is bc of a lack of scaffolding. 01:05:56 It is in this condition because its main public proponents lack sense first, 01:05:59 vision second. 01:06:07 ok 01:06:18 or they're just stuck in ANS compliance 01:06:21 too much of it 01:06:55 but, i have a lot of respect for what Anton has written, especially WRT the deep internals about Forth. 01:06:59 That's why they try to push improvements by making them standard rather than just push them. 01:07:06 i wonder if he slaves over a hot kbd day by day 01:07:12 k 01:07:36 wearing a hat with an index card stuck in the band that reads "Forther" 01:07:54 and a cigar hanging out of his mouth and eye specs hanging off his nose :) 01:07:56 hah! 01:08:54 from his, Brad's, and others' writings, i finally figered out the significance of ITC, DTC, STC, TTC 01:09:19 All of then being totally insignificant. 01:09:25 why? 01:09:44 (dont poo poo my educashun :) 01:09:44 Why should anyone know how it behaves at lower level? 01:09:49 to implement 01:10:06 So, is Forth good only to implement it? 01:10:28 "The language good only to implement." 01:10:30 for me it was good in helping me learn howto think more criticly 01:10:42 Why don't you implement counter machine then? 01:10:46 logicly 01:10:51 counter? 01:11:08 Look "counter machine" up then. 01:11:11 k 01:11:56 anyway, my point is that, all learning is good that advances a subject for hte benefit of many. 01:12:08 but stalwarts are sticks in the mud. 01:12:24 Oh, public... 01:12:47 Is gforth's CVS public? 01:12:49 at this time, with current tech, Forth should be at the same degree of developement of Lisp && C 01:12:57 i guess, i dont use it 01:13:05 Seems down for months as of today. 01:13:09 oh 01:13:21 ask anton 01:13:31 Or it was brought up within the week or two. 01:13:43 i dont use gforth 01:13:47 I don't want to bring it up again. 01:14:12 Those u:b3r c00l Forth hackers can write anything, 01:14:17 any threaded code you like, 01:14:28 except they can't write monitoring system. 01:14:29 and they have 01:14:42 Or just get any ready one and set it up. 01:14:56 what monitoring? 01:15:08 E.g. nagios. 01:15:11 ah 01:15:12 CVS! 01:21:41 Free-man: i am at times involved in gnu make development. 01:24:06 as for "GNU fanatic", i am a gnu developer and maintainer; and i like the system i develop, i do not see how that is fanatisicm 01:28:28 fanaticism 01:28:28 n 1: excessive intolerance of opposing views [syn: {fanaticism}, {fanatism}, {zealotry}] 01:28:32 not sure how i fall into that. 01:29:01 ams: if they hate or are quite indifferent towards GNU and you like it, you're a fanatic. 01:29:05 that's how 01:29:09 anyway 01:29:29 I like GNU but there are times I will use other (free software) operating systems to get the job done 01:30:02 DocPlatypus: who hates? 01:30:06 i don't hate BSD, or GNU. 01:30:39 DocPlatypus: which operating systems? would be nice to know the problems in GNU, and fix them. 01:30:45 DocPlatypus: maybe you could help us with that? 01:31:20 ams: OpenBSD usually 01:32:01 OpenBSD is non-starter to me. 01:32:30 DocPlatypus: i use openbsd too actually 01:32:48 though i am sad that it contains non-free software in its kernel, and its ports system; so i removed all of that. 01:33:51 mostly cause i think all distributions of GNU/Linux suck ass, and are hard to hack, but that is not the fault of GNU per see 01:34:19 Theo is actually more militant about what he'll allow in the kernel and OS as far as free software goes 01:34:33 it is also immensly annoying that debian and such patch things so heavily that it is basically impossible to report bugs upstream. 01:34:58 the only non-free software might be device firmwares... and it's understandable if you want to get rid of those. but it's a huge pain to rewrite free firmware for every new gadget 01:35:00 DocPlatypus: he might be militant, but he allows non-free softawre into the kernel, the main repo, and into the ports system. 01:35:27 DocPlatypus: it is very painful to rewrite drivers, period. we have been doing that since before openbsd, and with much harder things than drivers. 01:35:39 he rejected, for example, the new Apache license 01:35:41 DocPlatypus: like, rewritting unix so that it is free. 01:35:56 which was mainly just trademark protection stuff for the Apache Foundation 01:35:56 And unix is easy to hack :D 01:36:20 DocPlatypus: well, i see no problem with that. it is sensible to have one single license, we do that in GNU as well. 01:36:25 I think he overreacted... so we have Apache 1.3 in base system now and probably forever more :-/ 01:37:11 DocPlatypus: the problem is that there is non-free software, software you cannot modify in openbsd. 01:37:22 DocPlatypus: also, the cd's are non-free software. 01:37:32 DocPlatypus: you are not allowed to copy them, or redistribute them. 01:38:21 ams: I'd like to know where. 01:38:56 if you remind me later on, i can tell you, i do not have a copy of my system here. 01:39:03 and I think the only restriction on the CDs is that you cannot copy the whole CD verbatim. the project maintains port-specific .iso images which are AFAIK unrestricted 01:39:26 DocPlatypus: right, and that is not free software. 01:55:28 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:08:58 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 02:46:43 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@adsl-99-116-198-97.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 02:49:07 --- join: TreyB1 (~Adium@adsl-99-116-198-97.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 02:49:08 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:56:08 --- part: TreyB1 left #forth 03:04:33 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@adsl-99-116-198-89.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 03:16:07 --- quit: cataska (Quit: leaving) 03:31:05 --- join: Pisadaan (~pisadaan@183.182.127.20) joined #forth 03:36:11 --- join: Pisadaan_ (~pisadaan@183.182.127.31) joined #forth 03:38:17 --- quit: Pisadaan (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 03:38:18 --- nick: Pisadaan_ -> Pisadaan 03:41:39 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:09:46 --- quit: Pisadaan (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi) 04:10:25 --- join: Pisadaan (~pisadaan@183.182.127.31) joined #forth 04:34:07 --- join: gogonkt (~gogonkt@2001:5c0:1400:a::25d) joined #forth 04:43:26 --- quit: gogonkt (Remote host closed the connection) 04:43:32 --- join: gogonkt (~gogonkt@2001:5c0:1400:a::159) joined #forth 04:45:19 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 04:45:28 --- quit: Pisadaan (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi) 04:55:15 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:56:01 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 06:30:03 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 08:17:22 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@12.69.234.130) joined #forth 08:26:26 --- quit: Fox78 (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 08:33:23 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 09:25:59 --- join: qFxo (~C00K13S@5356B263.cm-6-7c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 09:28:44 --- quit: qFox (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:30:55 --- nick: qFxo -> qFox 09:37:50 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 09:59:34 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:20:37 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 11:43:14 --- quit: gogonkt (Remote host closed the connection) 11:43:19 --- join: gogonkt (~gogonkt@2001:5c0:1400:a::249) joined #forth 11:59:54 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-068-021-183.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:01:26 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:33:12 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:11:04 ams: FreeBSD marks non-redistributable sources/packages with RESTRICTED= / NO_CDROM= keywords in ports, I thought openbsd does something similar? 13:26:06 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:33:51 --- join: nixness (~dsc@78.100.161.104) joined #forth 13:35:24 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:42:12 --- join: gogonkt (~gogonkt@2001:5c0:1400:a::167) joined #forth 14:35:36 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 14:51:31 --- quit: qFox (Quit: Time for cookies!) 15:09:30 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 15:50:34 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:09:32 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 17:14:26 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:18:23 --- join: ASau (~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 20:45:14 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 20:50:59 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 21:28:11 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 21:36:25 --- quit: nixness (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 22:07:26 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:11:38 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 22:22:57 --- join: Pisadaan (~pisadaan@183.182.127.31) joined #forth 22:27:32 --- quit: Pisadaan (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/11.04.15