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00:38:12 <ams> mm... i have mixed feelings about locals
00:38:33 <ams> on one hand, they are useful for somethings
00:41:37 <ams> on the other, they make it hard to refactor
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12:11:34 <DocPlatypus> ams: I rewrote some of my code that's local-heavy to not use locals once upon a time
12:12:02 <DocPlatypus> made me appreciate locals a lot more
12:12:37 <DocPlatypus> that said I try to avoid them when I can do without and not make the code a vomitorium
12:19:06 * impomatic wonders why the author thought durexForth would be a good name? http://code.google.com/p/durexforth/
12:27:08 <SunTzu> what's wrong with durex?
12:32:01 <impomatic> Nothing I guess :-)
12:32:05 <DocPlatypus> I think it's a brand of condom in the US...?
12:32:22 <DocPlatypus> the perfect Forth to use for an anti-virus program I guess :-)
12:33:48 <SunTzu> oh
12:36:43 <impomatic> One of the examples from the manual    : flash d020 c@ 1+ d020 c! recurse ;
12:38:55 <DocPlatypus> whoa
12:38:58 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611
12:38:59 <impomatic> Described as an infinite loop...
12:39:14 <DocPlatypus> yeah, an infinite loop that wipes memory
12:41:10 <SunTzu> it is REALLY hard to port fig forth to linux
12:45:48 <ams> not really
12:46:10 <SunTzu> well it is for me
12:46:20 <ams> even easier if you are using a OS
12:46:23 <SunTzu> but every cycle, i get more idears for howto do it
12:46:57 <SunTzu> i figered out how easy it is to integrate it into the posix lib system
12:47:08 <ams> there is no such thing as a posix libray system.
12:47:21 <SunTzu> the stdly installed libs on linux
12:47:26 <ams> might be your problem there... not understanding OS fundamentals
12:47:39 <ams> linux has no support for libraries.
12:47:45 <SunTzu> i'm not a nayophyte
12:47:46 <ams> you mean GNU, which handles libraries
12:47:54 <SunTzu> god you're dense
12:47:56 <ams> also, POSIX only has one library
12:48:05 <ams> and that is the standard C library
12:48:08 <ams> nothing more
12:48:20 <ams> right, i'm in the working group for posix, hence i'm dense... 
12:48:21 * ams snickers.
12:48:30 <SunTzu> you are here and now, dense.
12:49:04 <ams> and you are incorrect, rather be dense as a rock and be correct than crumble like sand castles being hit by a single wave
12:49:10 <SunTzu> and you missed my point
12:49:24 <ams> posix doesn'
12:49:28 <ams> t have libraries.  neither does linux
12:49:34 <DocPlatypus> Linux is just the kernel.
12:49:40 <DocPlatypus> GNU is the actual operating system. thus the term GNU/Linux
12:49:46 <ams> infact, you can have a posix system without a single library
12:49:48 <SunTzu> you can accuse me of being inexact but not uninformed
12:50:25 <ams> SunTzu: clearly, you are uninformed, first assuming that posix even has a concept like libraries, secondly being misinformed about what is the OS and what is the kernel.
12:50:42 <SunTzu> pff
12:50:49 <SunTzu> you presume too much
12:50:51 <ams> SunTzu: and i'm informing you, thus you should be happy to learn something
12:51:00 <SunTzu> i have no prob learning
12:51:06 <ams> 21:32 <SunTzu> the stdly installed libs on linux
12:51:17 <ams> with statements like that, i'm not sure what i'm assuming or presuming...
12:51:24 <ams> linux has no concept of libraries.
12:51:35 <SunTzu> then you shoulda axed a question instead of jumping on me
12:52:02 <SunTzu> stop bifurcating your thinking between WG and here
12:52:08 <ams> no, i should have cleared up the issue, which i did
12:52:11 <SunTzu> the process is not different; think one way.
12:52:20 <ams> you are incorrect, and i corrected you.
12:52:40 * ams fails to see the problem.
12:52:41 <SunTzu> you presumed to know what i meant
12:52:57 <ams> i did, linux doesn't have libraries.
12:53:05 <ams> posix doesn't have multiple libraries.
12:53:10 <ams> you were incorrect on both points
12:53:50 <ams> anway, it is nice weather, or was, and i'll take a stroll outside
12:55:44 <SunTzu> you still dont get it despite writing pixels
12:59:03 <ASau`> ams: oh, so that's you on of those morons who introduced "dprintf" breaking all the stuff?
12:59:58 <DocPlatypus> lol
13:00:17 <DocPlatypus> SunTzu: and it's "asked" a question, not "axed"
13:00:43 <ASau`> Various people used "dprintf" for "debug printf" for decades.
13:01:13 <DocPlatypus> oh wow
13:01:20 <ASau`> Now those idiots on committee made it mandatory in another meaning.
13:01:33 <ASau`> Various people called that function "fdprintf" for decades.
13:01:35 <DocPlatypus> I can only imagine the chaos that ensued when a C compiler with the "new" dprintf came along
13:01:43 <DocPlatypus> wow
13:02:05 <SunTzu> doc dont ou think i know that to spell it correctly? :)~
13:02:28 <ASau`> Because it is "printf to file descriptor".
13:02:49 <DocPlatypus> SunTzu: maybe. but writing it the way you did comes across as ghetto
13:03:08 <SunTzu> trolld :)
13:03:23 * SunTzu notches his bridge
13:04:41 <SunTzu> i'm not ghetto, i'm geek
13:04:51 <ASau`> There're another, more subtle and much less funny idiocies in POSIX.
13:05:26 <SunTzu> which?
13:05:26 <ASau`> E.g. POSIX has quite special meaning of a second.
13:05:32 <SunTzu> heh
13:05:48 <ASau`> Even with run time extensions you don't have leap seconds.
13:05:49 <SunTzu> it's not atomic?
13:05:52 <SunTzu> lol
13:06:09 <ASau`> Instead, you have longer or shorter seconds to compensate.
13:06:48 <ASau`> Poor Noeter.
13:07:43 <ASau`> She thought that time being even is connected to the law of energy conservation.
13:08:47 <ASau`> Ironically, POSIX committee thinks otherwise.
13:09:53 <ASau`> You can't even measure the time reliably with their real time features.
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13:15:47 <DocPlatypus> hopefully I'll brb
13:16:08 <DocPlatypus> I've got to reboot to test memory. I had a game crash in a most suspicious way a few minutes ago
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13:20:13 <SunTzu> House approves another CR today
13:20:23 <SunTzu> sixth in order
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14:14:29 <ams> ASau`: dprintf?
14:14:34 <ams> what is wrong with that?
14:19:53 <ams> afair, *printf functions are reserved, if you implement such a function you are screwed anyway.
14:20:25 <ams> far more implementations have used dprintf as it is in posix than as a "debugging printf" anyhow..
14:22:30 <ams> as for leap seconds, no clue what your beaf is
14:22:31 <ams> beef
14:26:40 <ams> but hey, if you want posix to implement non-standard thingies, i guess that is a good thing... dprintf as it is defined was the most used variant, far more used like that than a debugging printf
14:26:49 <ams> fdprintf or similar wasn't popular
14:27:03 <ams> posix implements what is used by most implementations
14:27:36 <ams> as for seconds, no clue what you are on about there.
14:35:12 <ASau`> dprintf was quite popular, but not for the purpose posix suddenly assigned.
14:36:18 <ASau`> Sure, ignorant standard committee members are the best.
14:36:50 <ams> ASau`: basically no system used dprintf.
14:37:05 <ASau`> Basically, all BSDs used dprintf for decades.
14:37:15 <ams> it would also violate sanity, fdprintf ?formated descriptor printf?
14:37:21 <ams> fprintf, ...
14:37:38 <ASau`> What does first "f" mean in "fprintf"?
14:38:16 <ams> what does the d mean? debugging or descriptor?
14:38:21 <ams> dprintf vs fdprintf
14:38:24 <ams> logical
14:38:28 <ASau`> Debugging, obviously.
14:38:36 <ASau`> That's what it was for decades.
14:38:49 <ams> so what would fdprintf do?
14:38:52 <ASau`> What does "fdopen" mean in your opinion?
14:39:04 <ASau`> "Formatted descriptor open"?
14:39:19 <ams> you really can't compare completely different functions like that
14:39:37 <ams> the print functions and scan functions have similar behaviour
14:39:40 <ASau`> Oh, so, you've run out of arguments suddenly.
14:39:41 <ams> and should have similar naming
14:39:45 <ams> i just made one
14:39:57 <ams> open has nothing to do with print/scan functions
14:40:02 <ams> hence, different naming scheme
14:40:08 <ASau`> You made nonsense claim and didn't answer the question.
14:40:10 <ASau`> <ASau`> What does "fdopen" mean in your opinion?
14:40:26 <ams> ASau`: it has nothing to do with printing/scanning.
14:40:39 <ams> so keeping the naming scheme as used for print/scan function is meaningless
14:40:48 <ASau`> It has everything to do with formatted I/O just because it belongs to the same set of functions.
14:41:01 <ams> again, no
14:41:16 <ASau`> That's why you're moron like the whole your committee.
14:42:02 <ams> right, hence we follow current practises, dprintf as debugging was only used by a fraction of all platforms.
14:42:18 <ASau`> You've violated common current practice.
14:42:31 <ams> which one? dprintf is not used by the BSD i'm currently on
14:42:33 <ASau`> dprintf was used for debugging by most of platforms.
14:42:34 <ams> nor has it been
14:42:35 <ams> nope
14:42:37 <ASau`> linux didn't use it at all.
14:42:45 <ams> no, since linux is a kernel
14:42:47 <ams> it has no use for it
14:42:57 <ams> GNU has had dprintf for a long time though
14:43:50 <ASau`> So, just because one single platform uses it, you call it "current practice".
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14:44:12 <ams> you have yet to show me any platform that used dprintf for debugging as an exported, standard interface part of the operating system
14:44:17 <ams> BSD didn't, neither did GNU
14:44:22 <ams> nor did Solaris
14:44:32 <ams> or HPUX, Ultrix, etc
14:46:01 <ams> or any unix i can recall
14:46:04 <ams> which is quite alot
14:46:27 <ASau`> I've just run "grep -rF dprintf /usr/src" and have several pages of output.
14:46:30 <ASau`> Hence, you're liar.
14:46:59 <ams> ASau`: all internal headers
14:47:07 <ASau`> So what?
14:47:23 <ASau`> All those cases are "debug printf" rather than your shit.
14:47:28 <ams> ASau`: so what? they are internal to random programs, by your logic posix can't define shit
14:47:55 <ASau`> Posix redefined this "debug printf" which existed for decades.
14:47:58 <ams> nope
14:48:02 <ams> they didn't
14:48:05 <ASau`> At least in three platforms.
14:48:10 <ams> dprintf has never been an exported, standard function
14:48:19 <ams> for debugging printing
14:48:20 <ASau`> It has always been used.
14:48:21 <ams> by any UNIX
14:48:23 <ams> nope
14:48:26 <ASau`> By BSDs.
14:48:56 <ams> i see no standard C header or POSIX header or any other standard system header that defines dprintf
14:49:26 <ASau`> Standard header defines standard things.
14:49:35 <ams> including extentions
14:49:42 <ams> even non-standard ones
14:49:51 <ams> ntfs defines dprintf, but it is enclosed in NTFS_DEBUG
14:50:02 <ASau`> Extensions are extensions, they may be exported by other headers.
14:50:07 <ams> dev/* are device cruft, which can't be used by user space
14:50:11 <ams> you really have no argument
14:50:29 <ASau`> In any case, you idiots redefined "dprintf" which was used for decades.
14:50:31 <ams> none of those are standard headers, or can be used portably by any other implementation
14:50:44 <ams> nobody redefined dprintf, since it was never defined by BSD
14:50:46 <ASau`> This usage was basically the standard.
14:50:54 <ams> you'd have an argument if dprintf was defined in stdio.h, but it never was
14:51:33 <ams> (all usages of dprintf are also macros, which means they are completely useless for debuging, but that is a different topic)
14:51:40 <ASau`> There's an argument not to redefine "+" to mean something which isn't associative and commutative,
14:51:51 <ASau`> even if it isn't exported by some standard header.
14:52:12 <ams> + isn't a function.
14:52:20 <ASau`> Of course, by your idiotic logic, you're free to do that,
14:52:27 <ASau`> just because you can.
14:52:34 <ASau`> Ha-ha!
14:52:38 <ams> + isn't a fucntion, your argument doesn't stand.
14:52:41 <ASau`> Now that's really nice.
14:52:46 <ASau`> "+" isn't a function :D
14:52:58 <ASau`> Have you ever visited elementary school?
14:53:00 <ams> note also that POSIX explicitly tries not to conlfict with ISO C
14:53:10 <ams> ASau`: since we are talking POSIX and C, no, + is not a function
14:54:25 <ASau`> Given what you've done, it looks more like accidental rather than intentional.
14:54:29 <ams> + is an unary operator, not a function.  but i suspect you knew that
14:55:46 <ams> in either case, no standard, or even non-standard, exported header meant for user space programs to be used in any UNIX i know of has defined dprintf as a debugging printf.
14:56:33 <ams> though i;'m more curious about your argument about seconds...
14:58:09 <ASau`> If there's no law which forbids urinating inside some house explicitly,
14:58:09 <ASau`> does that mean that you may just come and do it anywhere you like?
14:58:25 <ASau`> By you logic, you can do whatever you wish.
14:58:35 <ams> silly straw men, can you explain your thoughts about seconds?
14:58:36 <ASau`> There is no standard regulating it.
14:58:49 <ASau`> Go to Scheme WG1 and read about it.
14:59:11 <ams> do you have a url?
14:59:17 <ASau`> http://google.com/
14:59:32 <ASau`> Learn to use search.
14:59:43 <ASau`> You can't even run grep for "dprintf".
14:59:47 <ams> i don't have a web browser here
14:59:59 <ASau`> Install it then.
15:00:28 <ams> i have no need for it, i use a mail deamon to fetch web pages
15:00:43 <ASau`> Then fetch those pages by mail.
15:00:53 <ams> can you tell me the url so i can do that/
15:01:02 <ASau`> http://google.com/
15:01:05 <ASau`> It isn't hard to find it.
15:01:17 <ams> i see nothing mentioning posix in that, or seconds.
15:01:44 <ASau`> You can't install web browser, but you can participate in posix committee.
15:01:53 <ams> it is done via mail
15:01:58 <ASau`> No wonder why we have idiotic standard.
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15:02:26 <ASau`> It isn't easy to learn about common practice without network access.
15:02:48 <DocPlatypus> well memtest86+ won't boot on here.
15:02:49 <ams> can you tell me the url?
15:03:04 <DocPlatypus> everything seems fine though
15:03:08 <ams> if you can't, then i can only assume you have no argument against how POSIX (ans ISO C) define seconds
15:05:17 <ASau`> So, you're unable to find what is on surface. ;)
15:05:32 <ASau`> Sure, you may assume that there's no argument,
15:05:45 <ams> i don't have a web browser here, if you can point me to a link to the argument against how POSIX represents time, then I can read it
15:05:46 <ASau`> it is very much easier to invent your own dream of current practice.
15:05:58 <ASau`> Just install it and be done.
15:06:30 <ams> as i said, i don't have a need for one, my email daemon does most of the url
15:06:42 <ASau`> Then do it via your mail service.
15:06:43 <ams> thus, if  you can point me to the exact url of the discussion i can read that
15:07:02 <ASau`> If you can fetch urls, you can find it yourself.
15:07:23 <ams> seeing that you cannot be bothered to point me to a simple URL, but are willing to spend so much time on this, i can only assume that there is no such discussion.
15:07:47 <ASau`> I'm bothered to at least force one idiot to make a step to educate himself.
15:08:10 <ams> continued name calling, yet no argument.  interesting
15:08:11 <ASau`> 'Seems, nature does produce hard ones.
15:08:26 <ASau`> The argument is out there, go and read it.
15:08:38 <ams> as for educating myself, i'm asking for the link.
15:08:50 * ams snickers, this is so much fun.
15:08:51 <ASau`> Scheme WG1.
15:09:03 <ASau`> It is there for a quarter already.
15:09:15 <ASau`> And interested parties heard it earlier.
15:09:22 <ams> URL?
15:09:28 <ASau`> http://google.com/
15:09:44 <ASau`> Are posix committee members all that incapable?
15:10:25 <ams> URL?
15:10:31 <ASau`> http://google.com/
15:10:37 <ams> google.com doesn't contain anything mentioning Scheme, or time.
15:10:41 <ASau`> It does.
15:11:22 <ASau`> Almost every teen knows how to use web search these days.
15:11:23 <ams> $ grep scheme index.html 
15:11:23 <ams> $
15:11:30 <ams> nope.
15:11:52 <ASau`> So, you can't even read information.
15:12:02 <ams> i stand corrected on time though:
15:12:03 <ams> $ grep time index.html 
15:12:03 <ams> <!doctype html><html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"><title>Google</title><script>window.google={kEI:"oO5_TejeG8rvsgbFjvneBg",kEXPI:"28478,28501,28596,29014,29265,29279",kCSI:{e:"28478,28501,28596,29014,29265,29279",ei:"oO5_TejeG8rvsgbFjvneBg",expi:"28478,28501,28596,29014,29265,29279"},ml:function(){},kHL:"sv",time:function(){return(new Date).getTime()},log:function(c,d,
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15:12:03 <ams> window.google.sn="webhp";var i=window.google.timers={};window.google.startTick=function(a,b){i[a]={t:{start:(new Date).getTime()},bfr:!(!b)}};window.google.tick=function(a,b,c){if(!i[a])google.startTick(a);i[a].t[b]=c||(new Date).getTime()};google.startTick("load",true);try{}catch(v){}
15:12:03 <ams> if(google.y)google.y.first=[];if(!google.xjs){google.dstr=[];google.rein=[];if(google.timers&&google.timers.load.t){google.timers.load.t.xjsls=new Date().getTime();}google.dlj('/extern_js/f/CgJzdhICc2UgACswRTgALCswWjgALCswDjgALCswFzgALCswJzgALCswPDgALCswUTgALCswCjgAQB0sKzAWOAAsKzAlOM-IASwrMEA4ACwrMEE4ACwrME04ASwrME44ACwrMFQ4ACwrMGk4ACwrMBg4ACwrMCY4ACyAAjaQAjM/z5Zc-7m_YD4.js');google.xjs=1}google.neegg=1;google.mc = [
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15:12:04 <ASau`> Nice demonstration of your skills.
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15:12:05 <ams> Event)window.attachEvent("onload",l);google.timers.load.t.prt=(f=(new Date).getTime());
15:12:43 <ams> so you are correct that it mentions things about time, but nothing in relation to posix.
15:13:09 <ASau`> Alright, I don't have more time to waste on idiots.
15:13:14 <ASau`> Good night.
15:13:48 <ams> so you have no argument, only name calling (as your usualself), ad hominem attacks (as per usual), and straw men (as per usual).
15:14:15 <ASau`> If you say so ;)
15:14:57 <ASau`> So far you haven't demonstrated any mental abilities.
15:15:03 <ams> still interested in your argument against how posix handles seconds
15:15:26 <ams> again ad hominem attacks, care to show your argument against how posix implements seconds?
15:15:32 <ASau`> If you're capable, you can find them, all necessary information is above.
15:15:42 <ams> again ad hominem attacks, care to show your argument against how posix implements seconds?
15:15:52 <ASau`> http://google.com/
15:15:57 <ASau`> Go and find it, it's there.
15:16:04 <ams> again, nothing to do with your argument.
15:16:05 <ASau`> All necessary keywords are above.
15:16:21 <ams> knowing you, i want the exact url you are refering to
15:16:52 <ASau`> Knowing you, it isn't of any use.
15:17:06 <ASau`> If it could bring any, you'd have fetched it already.
15:17:20 <ams> i don't know which url you are refering to
15:17:36 <ams> and you are being obtuse in not telling me it since you obviously know which url you are refering to
15:18:08 <ASau`> http://google.com/
15:18:23 <ASau`> If you were capable, you'd be reading the discussion already.
15:18:29 <ams> again, that has nothing to do with the argument, and still does not tell me which exactt article or whatever you are refering to
15:18:37 <ASau`> This has everything to do with the argument.
15:18:40 <ams> i cannot possibly know that what i find is what you are refering to
15:18:43 <ASau`> If you were capable, you'd be reading the discussion already.
15:18:51 <ams> i cannot possibly know that what i find is what you are refering to
15:19:04 <ASau`> It isn't hard to just go and fetch it.
15:19:08 <ams> i cannot possibly know that what i find is what you are refering to
15:19:17 <ASau`> Only you have to have some mental abilities.
15:19:21 --- quit: qFox (Quit: Time for cookies!)
15:19:36 <ASau`> Sure, you cannot know, you lack mental abilities.
15:19:48 <ams> more ad hominem attacks, google isn't determenistc, not to mention that it filters results depending on which country you are from
15:20:03 <ASau`> It doesn't need to be deterministic.
15:20:17 <ams> or me to know which article you are refering to, it has to
15:20:28 <ams> but you know that
15:20:48 <ASau`> You can set whatever country you wish, if you have enough skills.
15:21:05 <ASau`> Even if it were relevant here.
15:21:06 <ams> again, google doesn't work like that.
15:21:18 <ams> still i cannot know which exact article you are refering to
15:21:21 <ams> i can only assume
15:21:34 <ams> and knowing you you will simply claim that this is not what you were refering to
15:21:34 <ASau`> Sure, you cannot, you lack corresponding skills.
15:21:45 <ams> thus, i wish to know which article you are refering to so we are on the same page
15:22:41 <ASau`> So, how do you determine common practice, if you can't find this discussion?
15:22:54 <ASau`> By imagining your own world?
15:23:32 <ams> care to show me the article you are refering to?
15:23:43 <ASau`> Go and find it.
15:23:52 <ams> so it doesn't exist.
15:23:52 <ams> ok
15:23:56 <ams> that is fine
15:24:04 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-068-020-093.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
15:24:05 <ams> maybe you can explain in your own words what the problem is with posix seconds
15:24:23 <ASau`> Sure, it's easier to dream your own world and your own common practice to justify your idiocy.
15:24:33 <ASau`> Go and find it.
15:24:50 <ams> ASau`: so you are not versed in the topic to be able to explain the issue?
15:24:52 <ams> that is fine
15:25:01 <ams> one cannot be versed in everything
15:25:21 <ASau`> I'm quite versed, but I'm here to show everyone what a moron you are.
15:25:35 <ams> then you can explain the situation to me
15:25:38 <ASau`> The issue isn't hard to understand.
15:25:49 <ASau`> Go and read about it yourself, if you're capable.
15:25:56 <ams> but so far you have only used ad hominem attacks, and no arguments against posix representation of time
15:26:14 <ams> go read which article/discussion? can you tell me the url?
15:26:18 <ASau`> So far you didn't demonstrate that you deserve it.
15:26:22 <ASau`> http://google.com/
15:26:32 <ASau`> All keywords were said above.
15:26:33 <ams> again, that is not the article you are refering too
15:26:43 <ams> i cannot know which article you are refering to
15:26:46 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
15:26:47 <ams> care to tell me the url?
15:26:59 <ASau`> You cannot due to lack of mental abilities.
15:27:28 <ams> more ad hominem attacks
15:27:50 <ASau`> Honestly, you don't deserve even those.
15:28:25 <ams> well, you have no argument against posix seconds, that is all i can make out
15:28:45 <ASau`> Others do, and I agree with that argument.
15:29:11 <ams> welll, you refuse to tell me the argument, so there is little i can guess
15:29:31 <ASau`> I don't refuse, I just tell you, go and fetch it.
15:29:38 <ams> maybe there is, posix has some rough parts
15:30:04 <ams> (and some ugly ones, but none of the ones you've stated)
15:31:33 <ASau`> posix has way too many "rough" parts.
15:32:18 <ams> that may be so, would you like to help iron them out? austin-grou-l@opengroup.org
15:32:45 <ASau`> No, I don't have time to participate in committees with idiots.
15:32:55 <ASau`> I have more pleasant ways to spend my free time.
15:34:01 <ams> well, then your valuable input will be lost, you really don't have a right to complain about the standard if you are not willing to help fix it.
15:34:11 <ams> calling everyone an idiot does disservice to your arguments as well
15:34:40 <DocPlatypus> so there are still people out there browsing the web via an email gateway?
15:34:50 <ams> DocPlatypus: me.
15:34:53 <DocPlatypus> wow
15:34:57 <ams> find it more useful way of spending my time
15:35:00 <DocPlatypus> I thought that became infeasible years ago
15:35:13 <ASau`> I have all rights to complain about the standard only because it affects me.
15:35:22 <ams> DocPlatypus: not realy
15:35:42 <ams> ASau`: not if you are unwilling to voice, or argue for what you think is wrong with it.
15:36:00 <ASau`> I've voiced, you've choosen to ignore me.
15:36:08 <ASau`> Fine.
15:36:15 <ams> DocPlatypus: most things i read are articles, i don't spend time "browsing"
15:36:30 <ASau`> More reasons to call you idiot, because idiot you are.
15:36:34 <ams> ASau`: you have refused to voice your opinion on posix seconds.
15:36:56 <ams> ASau`: i argued against dprintf, no UNIX system uses that function in any exported header.
15:36:56 <ASau`> I've voiced it, you've chosen to ignore it.
15:37:04 <ams> ASau`: again, no you didn't.
15:37:44 <ASau`> You've presented idiotic come-off rather than argument.
15:37:53 <ASau`> on dprintf.
15:38:30 <ams> right, 0) no UNIX uses it for debugging printing in any exported header.
15:38:42 <ASau`> Referring to "no UNIX system" is idiotic.
15:38:52 <ams> 1) the function is meaningless, it is totally useless for debugging since you cannot enable it after the fact since it is a macro.
15:39:11 <ASau`> There're only two or three UNIX systems at all, both are nice demonstrations of "good design."
15:39:19 <ams> ASau`: i just checked five different unix systems, none of the export such a function in any standard, user space, header.
15:39:23 <ASau`> Especially Solaris.
15:39:39 <ams> Solaris doesn't define dprintf in the manner you describe.
15:39:54 <ams> GNU doesn't, the most widley used UNIX these days.
15:39:57 <ams> nor does BSD.
15:40:03 <ASau`> Solaris isn't an example of good design at all.
15:40:13 <ASau`> And BSDs used dprintf for decades.
15:40:16 <ams> didn't claim it was.
15:40:27 <ams> Solaris, BSD and GNU are the three major unices these days.
15:40:31 <ASau`> You're lying in face and call it an argument.
15:40:36 --- join: roarde (~roarde@pdpc/supporter/active/sixforty) joined #forth
15:40:39 <ams> again, they have not used it in any exported user space header.
15:40:59 <ASau`> It doesn't matter, if they exported it or not.
15:41:09 <ASau`> It is widespread practice.
15:41:21 <ams> not really
15:41:35 <ASau`> You're lying in face and call it an argument.
15:41:45 <ams> seeing that not a single exported header file defines this function.
15:41:58 <ASau`> It doesn't matter at all.
15:42:08 <ASau`> The function is in widespread use.
15:42:21 <ams> sure it does, if it is a wide spread function used by programs then it has to be in a exported header that is atleast semi-standard.
15:42:22 <ams> it isn't
15:42:36 <ASau`> There're programs that use dprintf too.
15:42:56 <ams> or are you saying that i should include <dev/acpi/acpivar.h> for an compiler, or maybe a rouge clone?
15:43:20 <ASau`> getprogname(3) exists for ages too.
15:43:22 <ams> _AND_ define ACPI_DEBUG
15:43:27 <ASau`> You don't have it on linux.
15:43:37 <ams> correct, linux is a kernel
15:43:52 <ams> it doesn't export any C library functions, cause well, it isn't a library or anything
15:43:55 <ASau`> So, by your logic, the need to define it conditionally means that it isn't in widespread use.
15:44:18 <ASau`> linux, gnu, the same shit.
15:44:20 <ams> define what/
15:44:28 <ams> ASau`: again, not really or even remoteley
15:44:29 <DocPlatypus> okay... I actually have a Forth-related question
15:44:36 <ams> getprogname doesn't exist on BSD
15:44:37 <ASau`> if you mean "gnu", why does your gnu cpp define "__linux__"?
15:44:52 <DocPlatypus> given GNU Forth on a GNU/Linux or *BSD system... what's the best way to access the GUI?
15:44:58 <ams> strawman, nothing to do with the discussion.
15:45:08 <ams> DocPlatypus: define gui...
15:45:11 <ASau`> Oh, right, it exists in FreeBSD, it exists in NetBSD, and still doesn't exist.
15:45:16 <ASau`> Just like "dprintf".
15:45:19 <ASau`> For decades.
15:45:29 <ams> ASau`: again, dprintf is not defined on BSD in any standard user header.
15:45:30 <DocPlatypus> for now, I can run it in a 24x3 terminal with an arbitrarily large font
15:46:01 <ams> DocPlatypus: define GUI
15:46:04 <ASau`> ams: you're telling the same bullshit again and again.
15:46:09 <ASau`> dprintf is in widespread use.
15:46:10 --- quit: xpololz (Quit: Leaving)
15:46:11 <DocPlatypus> but I was hoping to actually be able to rewrite this thing to show a GUI window like XChat
15:46:12 <ASau`> Period.
15:46:18 <ams> ASau`: again, it isn't.
15:46:27 <ASau`> You can run "grep -rF dprintf /usr/src" and count lines.
15:46:33 <ams> as for saying the same "bullshit" you are doing the same
15:46:38 <ASau`> You're lying in face.
15:46:45 <DocPlatypus> is anyone familiar with a Tcl/Tk program called stopwatch?
15:46:46 <ASau`> Everyone can just run grep.
15:46:59 <roarde> DocPlatypus: Can't say "best", but SDL is popular.
15:47:04 <ams> i can do a grep dprintf in the GNU source tree, and fine more references to dprintf as it is defined in POSIX
15:47:07 <roarde> ah - you want widgets
15:47:20 <DocPlatypus> roarde: I can do full screen SDL
15:47:21 <ams> doesn't mean anything, seeing that what internal source code does is not relevant
15:47:28 <ams> but what exported libraries do is
15:47:30 <ASau`> And with this schizophrenic attitude you participate in posix committee "designing" a standard.
15:47:34 <ams> we did export dprintf in our C library
15:48:03 <ams> DocPlatypus: i'll say one thing: UGH
15:48:04 <ASau`> Sure, you redefined it in gnu, and called it "widespread".
15:48:18 <ams> ASau`: nothing was redefined since BSD/whatever never defined it.
15:48:20 <DocPlatypus> it can be primarily keyboard controlled, still... but I'd like to be able to at least enlarge the font and not rely on xterm or another terminal program
15:48:35 <ASau`> ams: you're lying in face again.
15:48:42 <ASau`> It is easy to come and check facts.
15:48:48 <DocPlatypus> note that the "Huge" xterm font is downright puny on my display
15:48:57 <ams> ASau`: show me a single exported header that defines dprintf on BSD
15:49:11 <ASau`> It isn't relevant at all.
15:49:18 <ASau`> What is relevant is grep output.
15:49:20 <ams> sure it is
15:49:25 <ASau`> No, it isn't.
15:49:33 <ams> you cannot claim that something is widely used when it is not even defined by the system
15:49:45 <ASau`> Oh?
15:49:57 <ASau`> Do you mean that KDE isn't used?
15:50:11 <ams> again, not related to the discussion
15:50:19 <ASau`> It is related.
15:50:24 <ASau`> Is Oracle not used
15:50:26 <ASau`> ?
15:50:40 <ams> i hope nobody uses anything made by oracle
15:50:49 <ams> but that is for other reasons
15:50:57 <ams> none related to operating systems, and standard headers.
15:50:59 <ASau`> This shows your idiocy clearly.
15:51:10 <DocPlatypus> ams: not entirely by choice. OpenOffice.org is now an Oracle product since they ate Sun
15:51:12 <ASau`> That's exactly the point.
15:51:19 <ams> DocPlatypus: libreoffice!
15:51:37 <ASau`> It isn't exposed in system headers, yet it is in widespread use.
15:51:50 <ASau`> Calling it otherwise is idiocy.
15:51:55 <ams> $ pwd; grep -r dprintf .
15:51:55 <ams> $ 
15:51:56 <ASau`> And idiot you are.
15:52:00 <ams> $ pwd; grep -r dprintf .
15:52:00 <ams>  /usr/include/kde
15:52:00 <ams> $ 
15:52:08 <ams> no use of dprintf by kde's exported interface.
15:52:09 <ASau`> So?
15:52:15 <ams> so? it is not exported.
15:52:35 <ams> ergo, it is not even remotely standard
15:52:45 <ASau`> grep -rF dprintf /usr/src/sys
15:52:45 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:static void dprintf(const char *fmt, ...);
15:52:46 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:		dprintf("amidisplaycc: WSDISPLAYIO_SVIDEO %s\n",
15:52:46 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:		dprintf("amidisplaycc: WSDISPLAYIO_GVIDEO\n");
15:52:49 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:	dprintf("amidisplaycc: unknown ioctl %lx (grp:'%c' num:%d)\n",
15:52:52 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:	dprintf("amidisplaycc: switching to %s mode.\n",
15:52:55 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:		dprintf("amidisplaycc: preparing mapped screen %dx%dx%d\n",
15:53:00 <ASau`> /usr/src/sys/arch/amiga/dev/amidisplaycc.c:		dprintf("amidisplaycc_mmap: Not in mapped mode\n");
15:53:03 <ASau`> And all the way down only in part of system.
15:53:06 <ams> ASau`: what you define locally in your program is fully up to you.
15:53:18 <ASau`> So what?
15:53:25 <ams> ASau`: so what? it isn't part of the system.
15:53:30 <ams> posix defines a system interface
15:53:38 <ams> what you do in your kernel is completely irrelevant
15:53:46 <ASau`> It is part of the system.
15:53:51 <ams> (all that is kernel code by the way, so it doesn't have to conform to posix)
15:54:00 <ams> as far as posix is concerned, no it isn't
15:54:02 <ASau`> Kernel is part of the system in all BSDs.
15:54:17 <ams> ASau`: the kernel doesn't export a C interface, or a posix interface.
15:54:20 <ams> thus irrelevant
15:54:22 <ASau`> In all four three major systems, which makes it three different platforms.
15:54:34 <ams> next thing you're going to tell me that posix should define kprintf cause all kernels define it?
15:54:44 <ams> again, it is not an exported function
15:54:52 <ASau`> Why does posix defines "dprintf" then?
15:55:00 <ams> posix is a operating system library, what your kernel does is out of scope for posix and always has been
15:55:05 <ASau`> You can define it in your private source.
15:55:07 <ams> ASau`: it is a useful function.
15:55:14 <ASau`> Sure, it is.
15:55:17 <ams> you can define basename as well
15:55:27 <ASau`> That's why it is in widespread use for decades.
15:55:32 <roarde> DocPlatypus: looked at bigFORTH/MINOS? (I haven't, but it's there)
15:55:34 <ASau`> Only not in posix meaning.
15:55:36 <ams> ASau`: again, it isn't.
15:55:43 <ams> ASau`: none of the exported headers define it
15:55:44 <ASau`> You're lying in face.
15:56:00 <ams> ASau`: which header can i include in my program to get dprintf/
15:56:05 <ASau`> And your latter remark is irrelevant.
15:56:11 <DocPlatypus> roarde: that may be what I need to do, rewrite it for a different Forth
15:56:12 <ams> ASau`: which header can i include in my program to get dprintf?
15:56:27 <ams> stdio.h?
15:56:33 <DocPlatypus> roarde: the main thing I need is a function which returns system time to at least the nearest millisecond
15:56:35 <ams> not used in a kernel.
15:56:48 <ASau`> I include stdlib.h on gnu, why I get no getprogname()?
15:57:04 <ams> ASau`: we haven't defined it, it isn't a posix function.
15:57:11 <ams> openbsd doesn't have getprogname either
15:57:11 <ASau`> I can "grep getprogname /usr/src" and see tons of output.
15:57:15 <roarde> I'm barely a student of forth, but DDG is my friend. Nowutimean?
15:57:49 <ams> ASau`: (and on GNU we do define getprogname by the way)
15:57:58 <ASau`> ams: no, you don't.
15:58:04 <ams> ASau`: yes we do
15:58:14 <ASau`> Otherwise crc wouldn't complain that I use getprogname.
15:58:24 <ASau`> But he did.
15:58:29 <DocPlatypus> roarde: DDG?
15:58:45 <roarde> DocPlatypus: the search engine duckduckgo
15:58:48 <DocPlatypus> oh.
15:58:57 <ams> ASau`: see /usr/include/bsd/stdlib.h
15:59:03 <ams> ASau`: part of the C libarry on GNU
15:59:37 <roarde> I did, however just grab revagui out of curiosity. Lemme see what's worth mentioning.
16:00:59 <ams> ASau`: i think.
16:00:59 <ASau`> "grep dprintf /usr/src" and see that dprintf is part of system.
16:01:03 <ams> ASau`: but it is in GNU anyway
16:01:30 <ams> ASau`: it is not an exported function.
16:01:36 <ams> ASau`: it is not in any system library
16:01:47 <ams> ASau`: it is not defined in any standard, or semi standard header
16:02:03 <roarde> as expected, revagui seems to do it by implementing binary, per-OS calls
16:02:09 <ASau`> It is exported macrodefinition just like getchar and many others.
16:02:14 <ams> ASau`: this matters since a standard conformant program can skip the inculsion of stdio.h, and redefine printf
16:02:21 <ASau`> It is in kernel library.
16:02:33 <ams> ASau`: again, it is not.
16:02:33 <ASau`> It is defined in kernel semi-standard headers.
16:02:40 <ams> you need to define FOO_DEBUG where FOO is a device driver
16:02:45 <roarde> btw, is there a channel on freenode where forth questions can be asked, answered, and discussed?
16:02:54 <ASau`> Alright.
16:02:57 <ams> roarde: no
16:03:02 <ASau`> It's time to put it clear:
16:03:24 <ASau`> ams: You proved it nice that you're liar and idiot. Period.
16:03:34 <ASau`> There's enough above.
16:03:35 <ams> ASau`: more name calling.
16:03:48 <ams> ASau`: dprintf is not a standard function or macro of any UNIX
16:03:49 <ASau`> And good night, sleep well.
16:06:01 <ams> asking a standard confromat program to do: #define ACPI_DEBUG, #include <dev/acpi/acpivar.h>; i.e. including kernel headers to print debugging information, using internal macros, is quite silly to argue that it is in any manner or form standard.  so is arguing what a kernel does internally, it does not use any posix or C headers, library functions, or such.  many do, but neither POSIX or C care what the kernel does, 
16:06:01 <ams> or how it is implemented: thhe two care about user space programs.
16:06:36 <ams> you are free to call me a liar, it only show that you have no basis for your argument.
16:07:19 <ams> nothing of what i have said has been untrue, no BSD i can find defines dprintf in any manner usable by a program
16:07:47 <ams> (this is for freebsd, netbsd, openbsd, multiple versions, and bsd4.x in its various forms)
16:08:04 <ams> including solaris, GNU, and other random posix and non-posix systems.
16:09:00 <ams> 00:42 <DocPlatypus> roarde: the main thing I need is a function which returns system time to at least the nearest millisecond
16:09:04 <ams> DocPlatypus: on GNU?
16:09:09 <ams> DocPlatypus: portably or non-portably?
16:27:53 <DocPlatypus> ams: on another Forth besides GNU, to port this program to it
16:28:11 <ams> DocPlatypus: short answer: no
16:28:27 <ams> you'd have to query the rtc or soemthing
16:28:46 <DocPlatypus> it can be specific to whatever Forth I'm porting to
16:29:01 <ams> just query the rtc
16:29:03 <DocPlatypus> bigFORTH was mentioned... I was sort of asking about that one
16:29:19 <ams> no clue, don't use it myself
16:29:44 <DocPlatypus> : mtime ( -- w ) utime 1 1000 m*/ d>s ; \ This is what I'm using now, for GNU Forth.
16:29:54 <roarde> you're aware bigFORTH is emphatically GPL? (I thought that's what you were asking for)
16:30:07 <DocPlatypus> roarde: GPL is fine
16:30:10 <roarde> k
16:30:30 <ams> roarde: that is a good thing.
16:30:44 <roarde> when asked for, yes
16:32:12 <DocPlatypus> if I'm already using GNU Forth and I'm not porting away from it due to license, GPL is most likely not a problem
16:32:18 <DocPlatypus> just for future reference
16:32:47 <ams> roarde: it should always be asked for
16:33:51 <roarde> rms Himself doesn't buy that one
16:34:20 <ams> sure he does, but sometimes he compromises.
16:34:58 <roarde> you've been skating all 'round what I very generously call "the edges" of trolldom
16:35:03 <DocPlatypus> the only instance I've seen where RMS has compromised was on Ogg Vorbis and Theora licensing
16:35:09 <ams> yup
16:35:18 <ams> roarde: sorry?
16:35:18 <roarde> grats, dude; with these posts, you've made it
16:35:29 <DocPlatypus> Xiph made the case that BSD would encourage more adoption than GPL and RMS/FSF agreed
16:35:34 <ams> roarde: "should" doesn't equal "always"
16:36:26 <ams> roarde: the most important thing is that it is free software, then what license it is under is really a second issue, preferbly the GPL since it is the best license to protect users.
16:37:05 <saper> RMS and to compromise in one line? :)
16:37:14 <ams> hm? yes
17:00:13 <DocPlatypus> hmm
17:00:21 <DocPlatypus> I may just embed a Forth interpreter inside a C program that does the GUI
17:04:23 <SunTzu> neat
17:04:26 <roarde> Retro with SDL-vm; I think the timer is being updated for better definition. Don't know how that's coming.
17:05:00 <DocPlatypus> does Retro understand [undefined] ?
17:05:31 <roarde> [undefined] is a word?
17:05:43 <DocPlatypus> in at least 200x it is...
17:05:55 <DocPlatypus> I mean I can bootstrap it if need be
17:05:59 <roarde> what does it do?
17:06:20 <roarde> lemme take a look for the timer work
17:06:24 <DocPlatypus> [undefined] u**2 [if] : u**2 ( w -- d ) dup um* ; [then]
17:06:44 <DocPlatypus> sees if you have the word already and returns true if you don't.
17:13:12 <DocPlatypus> :2: SEE: Table overflow
17:13:24 <DocPlatypus> I guess this is why some programmers don't like case/of
17:16:17 <crc> DocPlatypus: no
17:16:35 <roarde> yeah, I could only find unix time
17:16:58 <roarde> how hard is it to find the rtc?
17:17:19 <roarde> last time I did it was DOS, so I had nothing in between
17:18:24 <crc> roarde: gettimeofday() IIRC
17:18:53 <SunTzu> rtc is a device, just open it; qv manpages
17:47:41 --- quit: roarde (Quit: Leaving)
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23:25:30 <ams> unix time is easy, clock();
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/11.03.15