00:00:00 --- log: started forth/11.03.07 00:28:35 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@178-190-233-132.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 00:52:59 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 00:55:32 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:02:34 --- quit: Joseph_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:02:50 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 01:20:56 --- join: fantazo_ (~fantazo@178-191-162-47.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 01:23:29 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:32:47 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 01:36:02 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 01:43:44 --- quit: Joseph__ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:43:59 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 01:58:58 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 02:02:14 --- quit: Joseph__ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 02:18:53 --- quit: fantazo_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 02:24:13 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 02:27:53 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:30:02 --- join: Fox78 (~fox@123.115.209.178) joined #forth 02:30:47 --- quit: Joseph_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:31:23 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 02:32:41 --- nick: JoshGrams -> tathi 02:34:24 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@178-191-162-47.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 02:41:22 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 02:44:33 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 03:59:56 --- quit: martinhex (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:21:45 --- join: martinhex (~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 04:34:44 --- join: nighty_ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:45:51 --- quit: martinhex (Remote host closed the connection) 04:52:55 --- quit: nighty_ (Quit: leaving) 05:03:11 --- join: martinhex (~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 05:41:31 --- quit: martinhex (Remote host closed the connection) 05:53:53 --- join: martinhex (~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 06:08:25 --- join: Monevii (~Monevii@67.224.246.166) joined #forth 06:12:32 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: Operation timed out) 06:14:52 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 06:30:15 --- join: gogonkt (~info@2001:5c0:1400:a::203) joined #forth 06:34:15 --- quit: tathi (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:35:17 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 06:35:59 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-95-5.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 06:52:23 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-1.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 07:02:25 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 07:25:13 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 08:06:09 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: Operation timed out) 09:17:12 --- quit: tathi (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 09:20:35 --- join: fantazo_ (~fantazo@178-191-172-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 09:24:29 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 10:00:59 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:02:09 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-dow-141-212-204-171.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 10:56:09 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:58:51 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-1.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 11:23:14 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 11:26:15 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-eecs-141-212-212-90.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 11:40:34 --- quit: saper (Quit: leaving) 11:41:37 --- join: nixness (~dsc@78.100.186.63) joined #forth 11:45:39 --- join: saper (saper@wikipedia/saper) joined #forth 11:53:35 --- join: ams (ams@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE) joined #forth 12:03:16 hey all 12:05:19 hi one. 12:06:10 hehe 12:06:37 I wanted to know what does Forth offer, that sort of makes it unique 12:07:07 newbies can write they own programming langauges and compilers 12:07:07 and also, why is it so special for embedded dev 12:07:29 nixness: nothing. 12:07:36 nixness: go to library, read a book. 12:08:21 I kinda thought I'd get a point in the right direction here :p 12:08:27 nixness: library. 12:08:47 ams, The hithhiker's guide? 12:09:07 nixness: that is a good one. 12:09:24 --- quit: Monevii (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:09:27 zarquon! 12:09:36 tell me what's good in Forth! 12:09:46 nixness: well, it's very compact at times, http://colorforth.com/ide.html <- first five lines with red are the IDE driver 12:10:08 saper: not exactly the best example IMHO. 12:10:20 What is? 12:10:22 have nothing better at hand 12:10:28 Gray?? 12:10:31 ASau: the colorforth ide driver thingie 12:10:49 What is the best example then? 12:10:56 Gray is incomprehensible mess. 12:10:59 fuck if i know 12:11:10 writting some own code 12:11:19 FSL is the suckage worse than old style Fortran. 12:11:28 yup, code that owns is awesome at illustrating certain things 12:12:30 nixness: a young monk came one day to the temple, he asked the local master there what it takes to be enlightened... 12:12:42 nixness: the master pointed at the sky... 12:12:59 nixness: the young novice was confused, and went home and decided to come the next day 12:13:09 Ergo, Forth is esoteric language. 12:13:32 nixness: and so he did, and asked the same question to the master... to which the master pointed at the water in the pond 12:13:47 nixness: You could join some sect with the same success. 12:13:50 nixness: still confused, the novice went home and decided to come the next morning 12:14:29 nixness: the main loop of the text editor may look like this : editor BEGIN keyboard handler screen AGAIN ; 12:14:32 nixness: the novice yet again asked how to become enlightened, to which the master pointed at the ground 12:15:07 nixness: slowly getting frustrated, the novice started jumping up and down screaming... 12:15:18 nixness: the master smiled, and pushed the novice into the pond. 12:15:35 ams, okay, I just got owned. 12:15:44 nixness: as the novice crawled out soacked into the sand, which became mud, and the scorching sun hardened he became enlightened. 12:15:56 nixness: in short, forget Forth and learn Scheme. 12:16:02 nixness: moral of the story? to know what sand, sky and water is you have to experience them. 12:16:05 nixness: don't waste your time. 12:16:12 saper, and how's that different from other programming languages? I imagine implementing handleKeyboard and render() if I was coding in another language 12:16:17 horrible zen story this... 12:16:47 nixness: try it. 12:16:56 nixness: write something in forth. 12:17:12 ams, I wanted to know what I can use it for, so I can set out and implement something. 12:17:18 nixness: input and output may be moved invisibly on the thing called "stack" (i.e. keyboard leaves soemething, handler may consume it) 12:17:25 nixness: try writing something in forth, then stop and write it in scheme, 12:17:31 nixness: you'll know the difference soon. 12:17:36 saper, oh so the stack is shared? 12:17:50 nixness: anything. 12:17:55 then there is no syntax ":" is a forth word (built-in usually) "keyboard" and "handler" are words defined by the programmer in this case 12:17:56 it is a programming language 12:17:59 like any other language 12:18:10 nixness: don't listen to saper, Forth has syntax. 12:18:14 nixness: yes there is a so-called "data stack" 12:18:16 saper, i.e. I have to clear the stack myself, if I wanted to, but if I don't, then the stack retains its state 12:18:17 saper: ssshh... ASau will get confused. 12:18:27 nixness: in fact, Forth syntax is more complex than Scheme's. 12:18:29 ams: I know him :-) 12:18:39 saper, you know me? 12:18:59 ughh...shared stack example right there! 12:19:02 mess mess I tell ya! 12:19:10 nixness: why don't you just read a book, and try to play? 12:19:18 nixness: right, you're starting to understand it. 12:19:20 * nixness amazon's it 12:19:49 nixness: don't use amazon, use your local library 12:20:11 ams, where I am, the only local library is in college, and I doubt they have Forth texts 12:20:11 nixness: you might want to have a look here 12:20:16 nixness: ams is right here, Forth is the same suckage it was in 80ies. 12:20:17 http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf1/sf1.html 12:20:31 weight... 12:20:35 ASau and i agree? 12:20:43 somehow i cannot think that is true 12:20:59 ams: sure, nothing changed since 80ies, that's why local library can help. 12:21:05 when ASau and ams agree google will complete rewrite of their platform in FORTH 12:21:25 --- join: Monevii (~Monevii@cvx-ppp-66-50-54-198.coqui.net) joined #forth 12:21:26 google could do that, they install spyware on their phone platform. 12:21:38 so if you use android or such, that is a possibility, or they could just brick it... 12:21:45 same goes for other evil companies like apple. 12:23:04 I'll use gforth 12:23:05 and amazon for that matter 12:23:08 nixness: yay! 12:23:21 and see if I can make an echo server in forth :p 12:23:33 concurrent echo server* 12:23:47 Forget "concurrent". 12:23:56 ASau, why? 12:24:06 Because there's no concurrency. 12:24:36 sure there is 12:24:38 though it is hard. 12:24:44 or rather, a bit harder. 12:24:44 To have concurrency, you should have "top guns" know it. 12:25:05 is it a gforth issue? 12:25:07 And top Forth programmers still think that cooperative multitasking is all you need. 12:25:16 It is general forth issue. 12:25:19 nixness: i'd suggest something a bit simpler, maybe... 12:25:23 Nothing implementation-specific. 12:25:34 ams: what is simpler than echo server?? 12:25:42 It's damn primitive thing. 12:25:53 ASau: fiddling with tcp/ip crap doesn't make it "simple" 12:26:09 nixness: anyway, try writing serial echo server, and you'll understand what trash it is. 12:26:10 there are either no libraries and no language support, libraries but no no language support, libraries and language support. 12:26:16 ams: TCP/IP is simple. 12:26:29 ASau: no, it isn't. 12:26:33 hehe I keep getting this feeling that ASau is trying to prevent me from checking it out 12:26:34 ams: yes, it is. 12:26:40 ASau: no, it isn't. 12:26:42 ams: writing echo server isn't rocket science. 12:26:44 nixness: yup. 12:26:50 nixness: fiddle, play, have fun. 12:26:55 nixness: try it, and you'll see. 12:27:00 nixness: make up your own mind why forth is "suckage" or "cute" 12:27:09 ASau, and I'd have more reason to agree/disagree with you after that 12:27:14 damn it, i dislike agreeing with ASau. 12:27:28 That's good. 12:27:43 ASau: we really should stop agreeing with each other... 12:27:53 ASau, blame it on Forth 12:28:05 nixness: the difference is that I fixed that gforth socket code, and ams has no clue what it is. 12:28:06 nixness: nah, my good looks. 12:29:11 nixness: oh, and given that they have reworked gforth FFI again, 12:29:18 nixness: it may not work still. 12:30:18 ASau: according to the changelog you have done anything to the tcp/ip code. 12:30:40 ASau: all i can see is a suggestion to add gforth.el to Makefile.in. 12:30:42 * ams snickers. 12:30:43 ams: it wasn't myself who committed it. 12:30:49 ASau: so? 12:30:53 ams, omg you like snickers too? 12:30:57 ams: that's all :p 12:30:59 * nixness throws snickers bar at ams and ASau 12:31:20 Plus, it's GNU suckage, they don't have culture of attribution. 12:31:25 ASau: i fail to see the point, the changelog doesn't say who commited something, but who made the change (i.e. by your note, you) 12:31:38 ASau: sure we do, ChangeLog, AUTHORS, etc. 12:31:56 Sure, you don't. 12:32:02 who commited a change is actually entierly pointless from a legal point of view 12:32:10 All those ChangeLogs, AUTHORS and the rest is modified by you, 12:32:12 the changelog reflects who wrote the patch 12:32:16 not by those who contributed the code. 12:32:32 ASau: the changelog reflects who contributed code. 12:32:46 ams: only if committers write it. 12:33:06 ASau: they do. 12:33:57 nixness: no, i don't like snickers. 12:34:05 nixness: bucnh of sugar, with more sugar. 12:34:07 i prefer apples 12:34:55 ams: only sometimes. 12:35:49 ASau: for GNU projects we do it, there is a legal responsibility to do so, specially to the FSF if the FSF are copyright holders (as is the case for gforth) 12:35:53 nixness: http://ficl.sourceforge.net/ this one is nice, ASau helped to write it although he will deny that 12:36:56 ASau: so if you think that there is something a miss, please email me ams@gnu.org so that we can fix the issue. 12:36:59 For some value of "nice". 12:37:09 (ofcourse you won't do that, since well, in this case, nothing is amiss) 12:37:28 ams: and in fact, ChangeLog has the record, surprisingly. 12:37:32 ams: you're blind. 12:38:07 ams@Psilocybe:~/gforth-0.7.0$ grep .*@.*\.ru ChangeLog 12:38:07 install gforth.el, too (suggested by Aleksej Saushev <878wvgaatn.fsf@inbox.ru>) 12:38:14 only thing matching you in anyway love 12:38:30 2006-10-07 12:38:38 nixness: http://www.forthos.org/ is funny and runs on a bare i386 hardware, see also here http://wiki.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?ForthSystems 12:39:07 ASau: i stand corrected, and you as well: we do note things. 12:39:14 * ams snickers as how his trick worked well. 12:39:44 You note things only sometimes. 12:40:20 ASau: no, we don't. if there is a missing entry, can you please mail me? ams@gnu.org 12:40:30 then we can fix it, we need to keep this in check for legal reasons. 12:41:47 saper: you know, i think i could squeeze a C based system under that ... :/ 12:42:06 ams: under what? 12:42:12 saper: under the size of forthos 12:42:50 409600 bytes 12:43:03 And what will this OS do? 12:43:14 self host 12:43:47 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:43:47 And provide hexadecimal interface to memory? 12:43:50 saper: yup, should be doable quite easily 12:43:59 Like debuggers do. 12:44:02 with a metacompiler on board? 12:44:09 saper: meta compiler? 12:44:18 this is C :-) 12:44:20 ams: yes, forthos metacompiles itself if asked 12:44:31 right, this is 12:44:34 C, no meta compilers 12:44:50 just a plain ANSI C compiler for ELF/x86 12:46:11 I just say what comes with forthos, it's still only 11% of the C runtime library of the box I'm typing right now 12:46:19 --- quit: gogonkt (Remote host closed the connection) 12:46:26 saper: kinda a bad example 12:46:27 --- join: gogonkt (~info@2001:c08:3700:ffff::7:74f) joined #forth 12:46:39 saper: seeing that your standard library contains a tad bit more than forthos itself... 12:46:51 and does not contain a lot, too 12:46:58 no drivers 12:47:00 saper: which c library? 12:47:02 GNU? 12:47:05 no 12:47:08 BSD? 12:47:23 yes 12:47:31 no text editor 12:47:31 then that contains a helluva lot 12:47:42 sure it does, regexp crap is in libc on bsd 12:47:48 I don't have bionic installed, sorry 12:47:57 what is bionic? 12:48:23 anywho, bsd's libc contains a lot of crap (so does glibc) 12:48:33 yes, who needs nss 12:48:43 (and it does include drivers, kidna) 12:48:55 bionic is a limited C library, I think android is using it right now but I may be wrong 12:49:09 (bunch of locale crap for dumping shit to console, terminal crappola, and what not) 12:49:14 drivers? 12:49:33 saper: termios for example 12:49:38 terminal crap is in curses last time I checked 12:49:57 saper: termios is in libc on bsd. 12:50:01 i'm not talking about curses. 12:50:59 and you have a bunch of posix stuff in libc these days... 12:51:05 i'm talking about a plain ansi c libc :-) 12:51:19 serial line disciplines are in the kernel, $ wc -l gen/termios.c 246 gen/termios.c 12:51:24 and the android libc is not standard compliant 12:51:31 few convenience functions 12:51:41 you mean Ulrich D. standard? :> 12:51:52 saper: no. 12:51:59 i mean C99, and POSIX 1003.1 2008 12:52:03 (for example) 12:52:08 which glibc adhers too 12:52:11 I never implied ForthOS is compliant too 12:52:24 neither did i 12:52:26 it's just a funny stuff 12:52:29 sure 12:52:31 that's all 12:52:32 didn't disagree 12:52:45 and i can get a self hosting system in 400k as well 12:53:09 with sourcecode 12:53:11 337024 actually less (includes dictionary and what-not) 12:53:13 and binaries 12:53:19 fine. 12:53:22 and the text editor 12:53:28 vi-like 12:53:29 sure, this is including a text editor as well 12:53:49 vi like if you want 12:53:58 and a compiler :-) 12:54:08 sure 12:54:23 you can write a c compiler in quite few lines... 12:54:48 specially if you only use a subset of C 12:55:02 but that would be boring, so 12:55:26 I am not sure if VSTa was not a comparable effort to what you are describing 12:55:39 by the same author 12:55:40 not really 12:55:59 forthos was written by the vsta guy? 13:00:21 yes, Andy Valencia 13:00:21 i'd prolly take a similar approach as busybox so i don't get the overhead of elves taking over things... 13:01:01 the only thing special about busybox is the crunch generation, isn't it? 13:01:17 crunch generation? 13:01:29 as in crunchgen(1) 13:01:41 crunchgen — generates build environment for a crunched binary 13:01:42 no clue 13:01:53 A crunched binary is a program made up of many other programs linked together into a single executable. 13:02:17 so it like generates a compiler, etc? 13:03:17 busybox just calls FOO_main when called as `busybox FOO' or when argv[0] is FOO 13:03:17 no, just links different programs into one binary file with one set of libraries, so it saves space 13:04:24 ah ok 13:04:38 so basicaly same thing as busybox yeah... nothing really special 13:04:42 saper: crunchgen does similar thing, only it does that automatically with some loader magic. 13:05:07 nothing weirder than builtins in a shell... 13:05:52 * ams shurgs. 13:05:54 anywhoo... 13:06:04 300k is plenty for a C env with compiler and editor 13:06:15 and a simple shell 13:06:19 with pipes 13:07:20 ASau: I guess with both know very well what crunchgen(1) does, I only wouldn't call it "generation of a compiler" 13:07:43 well, i don't know what it does 13:08:02 from the description it sounds like it generates a compilation environment for into a single binary 13:08:29 yes, a Makefile 13:08:45 but it doesn't do that 13:12:52 --- quit: ams (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:13:25 I'm not sure you can't compress forthos more. 13:13:38 You can most likely, but what does it give you. 13:25:24 --- quit: Fox78 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:36:04 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-1.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 13:38:14 --- join: Fox78 (~fox@123.118.150.174) joined #forth 14:23:02 --- quit: martinhex (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:44:35 --- join: roarde (~roarde@pdpc/supporter/active/sixforty) joined #forth 14:47:05 --- join: martinhex (~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #forth 14:54:53 --- quit: roarde (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 15:06:55 --- join: roarde (~roarde@pdpc/supporter/active/sixforty) joined #forth 15:45:22 --- quit: nixness (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 15:45:42 --- join: nixness (~dsc@89.211.254.177) joined #forth 15:45:44 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:37:07 --- quit: nixness (Quit: Leaving) 17:09:36 --- quit: roarde (Quit: "Solution step 1: law solves nothing") 17:20:30 --- join: fantazo__ (~fantazo@178-191-167-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #forth 17:23:56 --- quit: fantazo_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:33:58 --- join: foocraft (~dsc@89.211.254.177) joined #forth 19:29:06 --- quit: segher_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 19:33:37 --- join: segher_ (~segher@5ED3C3A7.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 19:35:41 --- quit: foocraft (Quit: Leaving) 20:07:43 --- join: sloppythink_fixe (4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135) joined #forth 20:07:53 hey does gforth compile on freebsd 8 yet? 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