00:00:00 --- log: started forth/11.03.06 00:05:03 --- quit: gogonkt (Quit: leaving) 00:13:50 --- join: gogonkt (~info@2001:5c0:1400:a::51b) joined #forth 00:44:28 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]) 01:52:41 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 02:53:26 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 03:58:30 --- quit: gogonkt (Remote host closed the connection) 03:58:41 --- join: gogonkt (~info@2001:5c0:1400:a::9c1) joined #forth 04:05:09 saper: cvs up 04:05:47 saper: it contains a simpler run-time endianness check for one case, if it still matters for you. 04:32:55 --- quit: nighty^ (Read error: Operation timed out) 04:57:59 Ha! 04:58:14 Forthers in their own style. 04:59:24 "In thrash mode, a programmer *will* edit the extracted source. 04:59:24 Once that happens, you are stuffed (to use a technical term). 04:59:24 We tried whatever was around a while back for a project. 04:59:57 I wonder, what do they do to their programmers who hand-modify object code? 05:12:38 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:35:46 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 06:52:12 --- quit: uiu (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 06:52:16 --- join: uiu (~ian@HSI-KBW-095-208-003-067.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) joined #forth 07:51:46 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-95-5.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 07:57:37 ASau: yeah, Stephen says that every time anyone mentions literate programming. 07:58:13 I suspect he was using a tool/forth that reported errors relative to the extracted source rather than the original document. 07:58:59 Actually, I don't think I know of any Forth systems that *do* let you change the file:line for error reporting... 08:00:11 I can't tell that all Forth systems report errors correctly. 08:01:25 Given the recent talk about convenience of HERE-relative PAD to system implementor, 08:01:25 one can't expect other convenience features. 08:08:25 * saper is lost 08:08:51 ? 08:09:06 I couldn't follow your discussion ^^ :) 08:09:25 "I read the news today, oh boy." :D 08:09:34 ah 08:09:59 "And Stephen Pelc talked there about LP." :D 08:10:41 Basically, the guy doesn't have a clue what LP is, and argues against it. 08:12:02 One of the arguments is "what if one edits tangled code?" 08:13:22 Not a sign of clue that it is intermediate code just like assembly listing. 08:22:48 ok, I am not sure. 08:23:01 I think I read the relevant comp.lang.forth thread 08:32:39 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 08:42:14 --- join: dom96_ (~dom96@dom96.co.cc) joined #forth 08:54:23 --- quit: dom96 (Quit: Bye.) 08:54:47 --- nick: dom96_ -> dom96 08:55:17 --- quit: dom96 (Changing host) 08:55:17 --- join: dom96 (~dom96@unaffiliated/dom96) joined #forth 10:01:29 --- quit: ASau (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:07:27 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:10:02 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 10:11:50 --- join: ASau (~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 10:22:53 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:49:42 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 11:19:02 --- quit: uiu (Read error: Operation timed out) 11:19:52 --- join: impomatic (~chatzilla@184.56.125.91.rb3.adsl.brightview.com) joined #forth 11:19:56 Hi :-) 11:21:04 I have a dumb question for you ;-) Would this work : execute r> swap >r >r ; 11:35:44 By the way, the pastebin in the topic hasn't been working for ages 11:38:15 impomatic: there are no guarantees that will work 11:39:07 --- topic: set to 'The Forth programming language, etc. | Logged by clog | pastebin.com | quartus.net/search | gforth: tinyurl.com/s8uho | isforth.com | ANS Standard: tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Wiki: forthfreak.net | This channel is mostly idle; if you ask a question, have patience and check the logs at http://bit.ly/91toWN' by crc 11:39:31 crc: but no obvious problem? 11:39:45 it's implementation specific 11:40:27 e.g., it fails in gforth, but works in vfx for linux 11:43:33 Thanks. I'm implementing another Forth, so it it does break I'll just write it in assembly. 11:43:52 no problem 11:44:44 (incidentally, where this works, you could get by with : execute >r ; and skip the extra manipulations) 11:45:54 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:48:05 --- quit: Joseph__ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 11:50:40 Hmmm... Now I check it on paper I'm not sure why I was swapping. 12:12:43 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:16:25 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12:27:40 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12:33:47 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-178-004-028-048.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 12:34:14 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 12:34:32 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611 13:12:34 --- join: ASau` (~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 13:12:58 --- join: segher_ (~segher@5ED3C3A7.cm-7-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 13:13:47 --- join: nottwo_ (~trannie@nottwo.org) joined #forth 13:14:02 --- quit: nighty__ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 13:14:02 --- quit: segher (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 13:14:03 --- quit: nottwo (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 13:14:03 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 13:14:39 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 13:31:16 --- quit: MayDaniel () 13:31:23 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]) 13:31:49 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 13:53:03 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 13:54:11 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 13:54:13 --- join: _spt_ (~steve@92.4.127.216) joined #forth 13:57:59 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14:13:23 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: Power loss connection lost [#error 0001]) 14:14:57 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 15:03:33 --- quit: Joseph__ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 15:13:23 --- join: roarde (~roarde@pdpc/supporter/active/sixforty) joined #forth 15:16:59 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:45:53 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 15:47:52 I wonder, if we see any answers that don't smell bad at all. 15:48:31 Do these dinosaurs still think that cooperative multitasking is the best? 16:08:30 --- join: PoppaVic (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 16:12:55 blah 16:13:00 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 17:19:36 --- quit: roarde (Quit: Leaving.) 18:02:41 ASau: it's not the best, but certainly usable in many applications 18:03:37 It all depends on what you call "usable". 18:04:40 If I say "spawn this", and then "spawn" behaves just like "call", "wait" being noop, 18:04:41 it works. 18:05:08 But it isn't what I'd call "usable" in context of task being parallel. 18:06:22 Today multitasking is about parallel processing rather than about simplistic coroutines. 18:09:55 not on a single-core AVR CPU 18:10:35 Perhaps not on AVR, but it is so even on single-core Atom CPU. 18:11:41 you are way too peecee-oriented 18:12:02 It doesn't depend on personal computing. 18:12:17 It is so even in embedded world. 18:12:39 I am not so sure 18:13:29 It is pretty stupid to employ error-prone technique to 18:13:29 perform quasi-parallel processing when you have true LWPs. 18:14:17 And you damn have them in almost any modern OS. 18:18:34 There's another thing Forth dinosaurs unable to grok. 18:19:06 Embedded world isn't limited to 8051's anymore. 18:19:44 Cisco routers are high-performance SMP systems. 18:21:35 isn't limited, but still widely used 18:21:58 I think I installed 3 8051-class microcontrollers at my car during last 3 months 18:22:35 an alarm unit I removed in september has Zilog 8-bit microcontroller 18:23:28 there is no OS there, not even vxworks 18:28:24 sorry to say that, but <87ipvvojz8.fsf@inbox.ru> is bullshit 18:33:24 I'm sorry to say that, but the statement above is bullshit. 18:35:53 Cooperative multitasking isn't what one assumes what one talks about "multitasking" today. 18:40:17 Some people talk about cooperative multitasking, some about preemptive one 18:41:52 When people start talking about "multitasking" without context, 18:41:52 they don't mean cooperative one nowadays. 18:43:36 depends which people 18:44:03 It is obvious for almost everyone except forth and perhaps some other mastodonts. 18:44:09 I spoke with folks from Airbus recently and they were explaining why they are using cooperative 18:45:38 Mission-critical domain is quite another story. 18:46:22 I don't know why you are dismissing that 18:46:26 I'm not surprised, if they talk about correctness proofs too. 18:46:38 Most industry doesn't use that. 18:46:55 define most 18:47:05 in number of pieces sold? I don't think so 18:47:09 Because it is obvious for damn everyone what most software industry uses and what it does not. 18:47:17 LOC written. 18:47:42 I don't agree with this metric as the correct one. 18:48:24 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 18:48:53 So, you mean that mass-replicating one line of code counts as "programming", right? 18:49:12 cp -R /usr/src /usr/src2 18:49:22 Damn, I've written the whole NetBSD!! 18:49:30 I'm ub3r-c00l! 18:50:23 it does not matter how many lines of code VSTa has 18:50:45 or ForthOS by the same author 18:51:12 Sure, it doesn't matter at all. 18:51:14 or even my toy amforth 18:51:25 Who is using VSTa in practice? 18:51:36 nobody, probably 18:52:08 This is the reason why it doesn't matter. 18:52:34 For practical operating systems, LOC does matter. 18:53:00 that's why counting lines of code does not give any indication of how the "software industry" is looking today 18:53:37 VSTa is hobby project. 18:53:48 It is done voluntarily in free time. 18:54:20 If one _pays_ for code written, it matters. 18:55:42 Now open job list and compare a number of positions where 18:55:43 you're asked for preemptive multitasking skills and cooperative one. 18:56:21 --- quit: Joseph__ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:58:36 I'm thinking about removal of all these bread-crumbs from apforth. 18:59:35 This verbosity "oh, I'm about to start including file ...", 19:00:05 "oh, I'm about to load dictionary image ..." is annoying more and more. 19:56:03 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 20:54:16 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 20:57:37 --- quit: Joseph__ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 21:24:32 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 21:27:30 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:44:08 --- quit: dom96 (Read error: Operation timed out) 21:48:26 --- join: dom96 (~dom96@unaffiliated/dom96) joined #forth 21:49:26 --- quit: Monevii (Remote host closed the connection) 22:12:43 --- join: JoshGrams (~josh@dsl-216-227-95-5.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 22:15:54 --- quit: tathi (*.net *.split) 22:20:02 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@dslb-178-004-070-105.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 22:56:39 --- join: Joseph__ (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 22:57:19 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23:25:48 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@200-122.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 23:27:27 --- quit: Joseph__ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/11.03.06