00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.12.25 00:02:20 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 01:35:57 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.214.175) joined #forth 02:07:42 --- join: doudou (~doudou@253.21.196-77.rev.gaoland.net) joined #forth 02:08:29 hello, what is between brackes "(n1 -- n2)" is kind of commentary? 02:11:47 if i want to create an array of 20 integers, i should proceed "create arr 28 cells allot " then "109 arr 25 cells + !" to store 109 in cell 25 and "arr 25 cells + @ ." to read the same item? 02:12:00 or is there another simplier way? 02:21:16 --- quit: martinhex (Remote host closed the connection) 02:29:30 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cm-6-7c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 02:30:50 This way, it isn't. 02:31:36 Some people have "th" and similar words for that. 02:32:07 Perhaps you should finish your entry-level book :) 02:35:14 i wont spent too much time learning something badly explained, seem concept is simple there is no reason for answer to need spending too much time 02:36:16 maybe all this is obsolete and should stay at this stage 02:38:46 what entry-level book are you speaking of? 02:51:00 --- quit: Deformative (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:58:11 Whatever you're reading now. 02:58:44 seem you are useless? 02:59:32 did you ever consider than when you have nothing to say, best practice is shut up? 03:00:29 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:05:49 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:19:01 If you want to learn anything without actually learning, 03:19:06 you should spend your time elsewhere. 03:19:31 There's no such thing as abstract best practice. 03:19:45 Best practice in what? 03:19:47 shut up you have nothing to say, your stupid philosophy does not interrest me 03:20:28 O_o 03:25:20 it is simple to understand that efforts are made because something is won, you beleive the opposite "make efforts you will win something", easy mistake but no interesset for nobody 03:26:34 except if you have something to sell, and want to make beleive it is worth something, but what is sure i accord no value to your knowledge 03:28:08 --- quit: tathi (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 03:29:50 maybe your skills have some value, your little secrets none 03:35:26 doudou: Did you ever consider that when you have nothing to say then the best practice is to shut up? 03:36:34 yes a agree, but this should be well explained here before apply, dont you think so? 03:37:13 doudou: I don't understand a word of what you're saying. 03:37:27 so apply: so shut up 03:39:53 i came here with two questions, 1hour and 10 minutes ago, simple questions, i got 15 sentences whith none having sense, seem you should adopt here and train to shut up 03:40:50 simple as they could have been answered with yes or no, or a link, do you know that many of your link in the channel headers are broken 03:41:06 What have _you_ to say? 03:41:30 11:10:08 doudou | hello, what is between brackes "(n1 -- n2)" is kind of commentary? 03:43:05 I suppose you look up what the (n1 word does. 03:43:11 ASau: Merry xmas! 03:44:02 or get a copy of programming forth. It should cover these things. 03:44:08 my question is: is that part of syntax, or commentary? why every body uses those brakes in tutorials and nobody explain their meaning? 03:45:04 I'd recommend getting an entry level book on forth. Eg. Programming Forth. I guess Starting Forth could even work. 03:45:33 or look in the code/manual for your forth and see what the (n1 word does. I have never seen it myself. 03:46:10 gibve me a link for that book, where is the pdf? i wont by this book, you know python is much productive, haskell may have some advantages, and there are still C# and so many languages to know 03:46:28 You can't win anything without efforts. 03:46:46 doudou: Just google it. 03:47:15 and you will most likely find yourself much more productive in python and C# compared to forth, yeah. 03:47:28 i google enought time, spent one hour or two, you dont have idea of a link? 03:47:41 No. I don't keep random links in my head. 03:48:05 but that kind of link is not the basis of this channel?? 03:48:14 really. 03:48:42 if you can't find the Programming Forth book with google then you should probably take up some other career than programming. 03:49:11 You seem to have heat-seeker mind. 03:49:22 name here is "The Forth programming language", there are many broken link, and you have nothing concrete to say to beginners, like go and read this book and ask questions after??? 03:49:44 You may think that if someone is doing something, then you can do the same only without learning it. 03:49:47 doudou: I thought I just did say go read programming forth. 03:50:56 in fact you have no idea of what you can find googling forth? thats reality, because books there are many, some of 600 pages, some very technical... some with many pictures and funny material, but all this is obsolete no? 03:51:11 What do you call "secrets"? 03:51:29 i just ask you where to find the link of that book you are speaking of 03:51:47 Those books you don't want to read further than introduction? 03:51:57 doudou: Just google for the book. it's bound to come up as first or second result. 03:52:17 i ask you two simple questions, you never try to answer frankly, someone who is not frank is someone with little secrets dont you beleive? 03:53:10 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@3.69.34.95.customer.cdi.no) joined #forth 03:55:20 ok smchmrkc "Programming Forth book" gave me the pdf to download, thanks, i found many books gforth book , thinking forth, DPANS94.pdf and many but too big for my needs 03:55:29 ok i try to read that one 03:56:01 as for books on forth being mostly obsolote... forth is mostly obsolote so that makes sense 03:56:09 obsolete even 03:56:53 my question is, is it worth something learning forth, obviously answer depends of learning material 04:00:47 i feel there is something modern in fonctionnal programming like haskell, i am not strong enought to understand what that mean but i am interested, i found a link about forth and object programming http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/objects/objects i dont know if it has interrest, i try thats all, that life, life search ease before effort 04:00:50 http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 04:02:00 If you want to fix them, then call an operator and tell him. 04:02:17 This way, it isn't. 04:02:33 It is easy to see that you've got the answer. 04:03:02 i disagree with that kind of "be polite" rules. simple is ask, question or asker does not fit your expectations, dont answer, it is so simple 04:03:38 And you've got explanation too: 04:03:43 i dont want to fix headers of this channel, someone should indead yes 04:03:44 Perhaps you should finish your entry-level book :) 04:04:17 schmrkc: it's 2 weeks before "xmas" :p 04:04:48 but this is not answer, answer is something i could ignore, search google, read book, learn more is more like insults as we obviuosly all know that 04:05:11 It is neither. 04:05:24 a link to a beginner book, could be a polite answer 04:05:35 Noone write them in tutorials. 04:05:52 Alternative is that you're looking at wrong ones. 04:06:06 Which is unlikely. 04:06:20 maybe if you like to answer to beginners, you should go to write one?? as always you are not forced to answer 04:07:44 http://google.com/ 04:07:53 remmember one fact, your answers and things you do dont come from your intellect, but from one emotive part that has no logic 04:08:07 google.com is insult 04:08:47 I know it. 04:08:55 But you should use google. 04:09:30 your answers are not answers, funny is why you want to answer? you defend kind of territory? is here your territory? could be, very funny territory 04:09:31 Why should it? 04:10:28 you mainly understood, i read your book and come back to read your new answers 04:11:04 I have one url for you: http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 04:11:41 There's at least one well functioning link in topic, and it has enough information. 04:13:03 See links in topic. 04:13:14 At least one is functioning and it has enough information. 04:13:58 I have answered all your questions. 04:14:05 well i tried : squared dup * ; and not : squred ( n1 -- n1*n1 ) dup * ; so what is beetwen brakes is commentary 04:14:11 http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 04:15:54 sorry i wont read stupid smart questions book, as a simple rule can overwrite all this stuff, ask, answer if you want, if i got no answer i may try to change my questions like; i googled 2 days long and did not find answer so i come to ask!!! hahahaha 04:16:22 you should consider writting a book for people who answer 04:17:40 with first rule: you are not forced to answer, if you dont know or want to answer dont answer, if you want to answer something not exactly related to question dont answer, consider not answering make you win lot of time 04:17:58 It depends on dialect :) 04:18:47 It depends on the one asking. 04:19:33 no it does not, depends only of question, does you computer ask diploma before running? no why introduce some human stupidty where it is not needed? 04:19:38 After observing your behaviour, I'd say it doesn't worth for _you_. 04:20:53 not at all, you had this beleive before i ask, because you want to beleive your work and your knowledge having lot of value, and you beleive this can be acheived minimizing the knowledge of ppl who ask 04:21:15 poor humans 04:21:25 You ought to have other arguments than "I can write X in python in N minutes." 04:22:12 you ought to understand this is much important parameter in programming 04:23:23 in fact what have value, is ability to make programms easily understood by other programmers, thats the unique parameter left 04:23:47 What do you call "modern"? 04:24:03 What is "modern" in your sense in functional programming? 04:25:58 I don't want to fix them either. 04:26:17 For a person skillful enough, they provide enough starting points. 04:26:20 i read something but cant remmember thow it is named, in normal programming there are variables, and programm react differently depending of input variables, functionnal programming can be written in a way it never depends of input variables and will react always the same way even with stupid variables 04:27:00 This is exactly the answer. 04:27:11 There're enough starting points. 04:27:36 There're only 3 hops to Pelc's book. 04:27:40 skill is not the problem, kiss is the problem, a skill full presonn will write a programm that he is not able to debug if he use all is skill, thats kind of stupid, problem is make simple programms 04:27:58 If you can't make 3 steps, you won't succede in programming. 04:28:08 Especially in functional one. 04:28:35 programming should be made for idiots if you want to make something valuable, i dont care anybody 04:28:47 kiss 04:29:37 i hope i can find something simplier in forth than in other languages, that all 04:30:06 I have enough to write already. 04:30:11 You're not forced to ask either. 04:30:30 In fact, the answer to your questions is obvious. 04:31:03 Your questions were correctly answered before you started whining and insulting others. 04:31:15 why should i prevent to ask? as i told your if forth is worth learning depends of learning material, this channel is certainly part of learning material, i need to try 04:31:17 In fact, you were correctly answered even after you did. :) 04:31:47 Though the second person pointed to the same problems. 04:31:57 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 04:31:58 not at all, your answer was read book ... even unable to link a book, thats a miserable answer 04:32:03 If two persons point to the same, perhaps the problem is real. 04:32:44 Yes, here is my territory :) now you can get off and think whatever you want :) 04:32:54 no problems exist without persons, i may be wrong, but i did not read something that demonstrate contray, i feel this is logic that enought 04:33:50 there is nothing to think, i dont know the future, let go reading this book, thats life 04:40:08 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:40:44 First rule, you're not forced to ask. 04:41:03 Second rule, you're not forced to read answers, 04:41:08 and that's what you actually do. 04:41:30 Third rule, you're not forced to follow reccommendations either, 04:41:41 that's what you actually do. 04:42:06 But then, other's are not forced to follow your advices as well. 04:42:20 You're a stranger here. 04:42:22 first this channel is open to all (maybe error), second rule, you are not forced to answer, third rule, if you dont want to answer honnestly better is shut up 04:42:47 If you want to receive nice answers, pose nice questions. 04:42:58 Computer doesn't ask your diploma, 04:43:21 i dont want nice answers, i dont want to subscribe to a sect, i want to ask and get what i get thats all 04:44:28 yet you have to understand something when you want to do 04:44:31 anything with computer that is different from using it as mat. 04:45:11 you know ppl to defend rules are lot and lot, ppeople to understand problems and improve matters and few and few, you want to do what defend rules and be useless? 04:45:25 Yes, exactly, it's you wanting to ask because you want to ask, 04:45:28 not because you want to get an answer. 04:45:41 If you really wanted to get an answer, you could find it on the web already. 04:46:20 See http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 04:46:39 i wanted to ask to know what king of answer i could expect from such a channel, of course i could have spent some time more to search but it wont have helped me to know what i can expect from such channel 04:46:47 If you do want to get an answer, you should ask correct question, 04:47:00 not an arbitrary one. 04:47:25 You can't understand program written in language unknown to you. 04:47:38 So does "other programmer". 04:48:22 it was a simple and correct question, does brackes are part of syntax or commentary ... answer was read beginners book (no link to what is beginners book), you could have shut up as i repeat you 04:48:30 I doubt you can understand Haskell program except very elementary one. 04:49:43 you are always speaking of skill, beleiving that people can do things and others not, that is mostly stupid and hate of humans 04:50:20 There's no "normal programming". 04:50:30 Your answers are useless, consider that, compute that, understand that and shut up ... 04:50:49 useless to my needs 04:50:50 Your understanding of functional programming is wrong. 04:51:27 i have no understanding of functionnal programming, i search thats all 04:52:00 KISS is the problem, right. 04:52:08 i try to understand and improve, do i need you to say i cant? 04:52:47 It's main problem is that many unskilled programmers think that some program is complex because the writer is bad. 04:53:11 Programming can't be made for idiots, it is proved long ago. 04:53:41 Though you may not know about Markov, you don't seem to 04:53:44 have any clue in programming. 04:54:24 programming should not be made by super-intelligent people, this have been tried for a long time with: no success 04:54:36 Forth is not simpler than other languages. 04:55:27 i only hope that forth can handle some problems in a simplier way that other languages, is that stupid? 04:56:28 what i want to write is simple: a programm able to find a way to put all 28 dominos following the domino rule 04:56:28 3 hops to the book is correct and right. 04:56:44 If you can't make 3 steps, you shouldn't program. 04:58:21 every body can programm, i dont understand what are this 3 hops you are speaking of? anyway anybody can programm, as anybody can learn different humans languages, even idiots can 04:58:41 I don't know it either, yet I can program it to some extent. 05:00:10 i probably only need for my programm 2 arrays and two functions... should i need reading entire book, knowing Python, C#, C, already? 05:01:22 i speak too much and work to little, thanks maybe latter if i succed 05:08:50 first rule is that you are to ask questions smart enough, 05:09:08 second rule is that if you don't want to listen to answers, 05:09:11 just shut up 05:09:33 And don't teach others, 05:09:38 we know better what we do. 05:09:59 We understand problems better than you do. 05:10:33 If you don't understand it, don't enforce your own rules. 05:11:00 They're not better than already existing ones. 05:11:30 You asked, you've got answer. 05:11:41 That the answer is different from expected, is part of answer. 05:12:03 It indicates that you didn't understand problem. 05:12:11 In fact you haven't even tried to understand it. 05:13:08 Instead, you're teaching us about how to answer stupid questions. 05:13:33 You've got simple and correct answer, no they're not. 05:13:36 seem http://www.freebookcentre.net/programming-books-download/Programming-Forth-%28PDF%29.html book explain correctly that brakes are commentary, you should ask why i did not found that myself, and consider all time lost here after that question 05:14:14 And you do need to read that beginner's book or tutorial that you were reading. 05:14:22 rule is simple: never answer stupid questions, never answer something obvious 05:14:28 I doubt that it doesn't explain this elementary thing. 05:14:55 Yes, skill is essential. 05:15:27 If you can't make 3 consecutive steps, you're in the wrong place. 05:15:28 --- quit: Judofyr (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:15:50 My answers are useful, but not to you. 05:16:21 Again, if you can't make 3 consecutive steps, this is wrong place for you. 05:16:30 doudou: For your domino thing I'd use prolog. 05:16:36 You should return to your mom. 05:16:45 so dont answer me, seem pretty obvious logic. if you did not answer, i may have search knowing that questions where or stupid or too difficult 05:16:52 But really. 05:16:59 or into your hospital. 05:17:11 finding what the ( word does in forth is not rocket science. I'm sure it is in pretty much every tutorial out there. 05:17:21 --- join: Judofyr_ (~judofyr@c9F325AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 05:17:45 i am sure you can understand that simple logic: dont answer stupid questions if you dont have skills to do it 05:17:50 No, you don't need me to say anything. 05:17:53 and if you want to program forth you need to read some tutorials and/or books no matter how much python and C# you know. 05:18:11 If you really needed, I'd rather not allow you. 05:18:21 thanks for prolog 05:19:06 --- quit: Judofyr_ (Read error: Operation timed out) 05:20:20 every body can speak ... why cant you understand that you create problem. more you dont want to consider that my question even so stupid will be asked many time and simple answer should be prefered 05:20:36 Programming should be made by intelligent people nevertheless, 05:20:59 it has been tried otherwise, 05:21:07 visual basic, eh? 05:21:11 so far we have many problems arising from that. 05:21:58 but how can this be achieved? as i can tell you i deeply beleive you are not very intelligent not be able to handle so simple questions 05:22:00 Just like guns don't kill people, Forth can't handle problems. 05:22:41 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@c9F325AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 05:23:55 let ppl honnestly try, results will show who is enought intelligent or not 05:24:00 Forth is not the best language to solve this kind of problems. 05:24:06 * schmrkc pictures doudou in #openbsd bitching about RTFM. 05:24:26 --- quit: Judofyr (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:24:45 No, not everybody can program. 05:24:51 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@c9F325AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 05:25:06 If you can't plan your steps, you can't program. 05:25:23 I imagine most people can actually learn how to do it, but one must put in the effort obviously. 05:25:28 If you can't perform simple search in the web (and you can't), 05:25:33 you can't program. 05:26:00 RTFM is so stupid as manuals are not made to be readed, but to writters to be uncritisized, there are good books 05:26:14 In particular, the latter skill is _essential_ to "domino" kind of problems. 05:26:28 man pages are not made to be read? 05:26:45 funny is that you are ready to loose so much time discussing with me.... dont answer if you cant 05:26:56 man pages are unreadable 05:27:15 you know there is much important discovery 05:27:25 and you seriously plan on making a living as a programmer? 05:27:45 we discover that human can memorize ten time less what he can recognize 05:27:59 does man page take this into account? 05:28:17 You're making on sense what so ever. 05:28:26 all this is too old, you must follow important things 05:28:39 man page is flat and stupid 05:28:42 --- join: Judofyr_ (~judofyr@c9F325AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 05:28:55 time eater 05:28:58 one of my new years resolutions will actually be to not feed the trolls. I might as well start a bit early. 05:30:34 good resolution, try to escape from simple common and obvious concepts, like troll, pain is work, man page is great acheivement .... be modern 05:30:52 KISS 05:31:28 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 05:31:40 --- quit: Judofyr (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 05:32:27 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@c9F325AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 05:34:33 I know that history is important, but i dont feel surpised beeing disturbed by () as commentary in functions definitions... each language want to improve matters and commentary should be handled in very special way .... woww very dirty ideas maintained by ? RTFM army? hopeless 05:35:27 --- quit: Judofyr_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 05:44:06 schmrkc: isn't it surprising that I was thinking about it too? :D 05:45:55 (Poor ##prolog occupiers...) 05:46:01 indeed! 05:46:26 * schmrkc is one of those :S 05:46:36 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-95-5.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 05:46:55 * ASau wonders what you can understand in Prolog if you don't know any predicate calculus. 05:47:44 I don't create problem, you do. 05:48:19 "space ships shouldn't only be built by intelligent people!" 05:48:33 You come, ask idiotic questions, then you wonder why you don't get trivial answer, and start inventing rules. 05:49:30 ASau: Are you lagging real bad or what? (: 05:50:06 * ASau chortles. 05:50:59 doudou: it can be achieved easily, you just stop asking 05:51:00 questions and teaching us what to do, and instead devote your 05:51:03 time to reading books or tutorials you find on the net. 05:51:05 if so, why are you exactly trying to acheive with those last sentence? try to be logic ... logic show a simple and obvious rule that is good for every body askers and answerers: dont answer idiot answers like (read book, search google, work more) it is so stupid answers 05:51:31 Hi all. 05:51:44 * ASau chortles again. 05:51:52 doudou: all the links in the channel topic work just fine for me. Dunno what you're smoking. 05:52:08 T|N>F 05:53:03 schmrkc: in reality it isn't that interesting, openbsd folks isn't that tolerant. 05:53:31 not even 1000x less tolerant. 05:54:14 doudou: right, that's why you'll get kicked from #openbsd 05:54:17 after you start this kind of talk there. 05:54:33 Manuals are written to be read. 05:54:46 If you don't understand, you should just gtfo. 05:55:11 And pragmatic openbsd folks enforce this rule. 05:55:42 seem the links works yes, i may have mistake, i got always dns page 05:55:58 Yes. 05:57:00 Asau, what is wrong with simple logic: answer if you want to. channel wrote somewhere you can ask if you want. what improvement is reading one hours rules of politeness?? KISS 05:57:39 ASau: stop feeding the troll and get back to work on pforth already. :-P 05:57:59 schmrkc: just troll in return, sometimes it is funny. :) 05:58:31 schmrkc: e.g. gavino is quite nice patient for this treatment. :) 05:58:41 anyway my question about brakes is not so stupid, first time i see this language i think that question is not so stupid, you answer about reading book, googling and working harder is insulting. never forget that point and answer that point before repeating something about me 05:59:03 schmrkc: yes, I "did that for lulz"(c) 06:00:23 as i told before, not answering is enought answer to "stupid questions" 06:03:44 --- quit: gogonkt (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:04:47 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.214.175) joined #forth 06:07:20 ASau: I have heard this term "gavino" before. 06:12:56 * ASau would point that in Forth comments are not handled in a special way, but this is useless. The guy doesn't read anything. 06:13:10 schmrkc: was that a question? 06:13:27 tathi: Nah not really. 06:13:56 ASau: I am still very amused by my early comment about "look up what the (n1 word does" 06:14:35 schmrkc: he's a newsgroup troll in case you didn't know. Not as totally whacko as werty, but still somewhat entertaining to feed. 06:15:37 aha. Right. 06:16:07 my ISP decided no one reads newsgroups so why offer a newsserver!? 06:16:55 Make your stakes. 06:17:28 Shall I coerce Phil in applying any significant change or not? 06:18:27 I dunno, how much do you care about pforth? You could just work on FICL... 06:18:38 "nuclear rockets shouldn't only be built by intelligent people!" 06:19:36 schmrkc: if one or two space ships burn, it won't cause major headache to me. :) 06:21:55 because you make that error beleiving that intelligent ppl makes obviously intelligent things, that is most stupid, things are intelligent or not discarding who made them 06:22:08 Good evening, tathi. 06:22:20 You've arrived just in time.. 06:22:24 Oh? 06:22:32 Ah, you've noticed it :) 06:22:33 Merry Christmas, if you do that. 06:23:36 your hope that stupid ppl will never acheive intelligent things mean only you would like to make intelligent things because you are intelligent, not at all your answers where deeply stupid 06:24:15 This actually reminds me of something. 06:25:03 doudou: The 12 hour or 1/2 Day clock is an intended EVIL against humanity indicting every human on Earth as Dumb, Educated Stupid and Evil - for imaginary Cubed Earth has 4 Days within simultaneous rotation. am I rite!? 06:26:07 probably 06:29:44 have no idea of what you are saying ... you link evil to stupid? 06:30:41 * ASau wonders if there's any field where the guy has at least some experience. 06:31:28 tathi: sometimes trolls are nice. Even gavino is. 06:31:37 very nice concept, can build very interesting upon that 06:32:00 yes rely on troll concept, easy to understand one 06:32:02 doudou: I am a Knower of 4 corner simultaneous 24 hour Days that occur within a single 4 quadrant rotation of Earth. 06:32:40 ASau: I don't have much use for them. But I suppose gavino has sparked a few interesting discussions. 06:34:57 it is funny to obeserve the archaic behavior of group, something very old, ppl suddenly loose use of ideas and concepts to rely to some community link... no more ideas left, only references to links between persons 06:36:33 so what is the idea behind brakes...? comment only or what? 06:37:41 tathi: speaking of pforth 06:38:29 tathi: do you know anything that can count branch frequency in particular switch statement _for_ me? 06:38:57 so that I don't modify the dispatch code to do that 06:39:06 ok page13, only comments.... so i where right, surprinsing comments in functions definitions for new commers to this language. thanks for your help... speak of trolls, for my part i expect you wash yourself 06:39:44 (though it may be easier, if I neglect all internal branches) 06:39:53 be back if i am able to finish that simple domino programms, i think you will like to destroy it 06:40:19 thanks schmrkc book is good one 06:40:29 --- part: doudou left #forth 06:42:42 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 06:44:40 --- quit: MayDaniel () 06:45:37 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-147-142.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 06:47:16 ASau: not off the top of my head 06:50:58 * ASau hopes that he does mean that. 06:51:55 "I remember being impressed with Ada because you could write an infinite loop without a faked up condition. 06:51:58 The idea being that in Ada the typical infinite loop would normally be terminated by detonation." 06:52:15 Really nice quote from Larry Wall. 06:58:48 --- quit: Judofyr (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 07:01:53 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 07:26:48 --- join: struan (~ubuntu@g224159069.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 07:27:07 ha great - i knew there must be a forth channel somewhere :D 07:27:13 hi 07:27:56 today i made my first steps into forth: i installed amforth on an arduino 07:28:04 hi 07:31:02 struan: Congrats and good luck. 07:32:15 if you're going to ask idiotic questions, better don't. 07:32:21 we've had enough for today :) 07:32:52 well, if you managed to do that, you're welcome :) 07:32:54 hehe 07:33:13 I think actually buying an arduino is a good bet that idiotic questions won't be coming. 07:34:16 Alright, I've understood how ffi is done in pforth, 07:34:37 stupid question: what were those stupid questions? :D 07:34:37 but this isn't satisfying... 07:35:51 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/10.12.25 07:36:01 oh we have logs (: 07:36:44 hehe 07:36:55 actually, I dunno that it was so much stupid questions as stupid attitude. 07:37:03 Yeah. 07:37:51 struan: I seem to remember someone here just the other day who had big amforth problems. Something about having to reflash it after doing pretty much anything at all. 07:37:58 tathi: isn't amforth that one with that [censored] error reporting? 07:38:23 ?? 42-a3 07:38:28 or some random gibberish. 07:38:29 that's the one. 07:38:47 schmrkc, thats true - i simply tried to define some words (or how to say said) and then not even 1 1 + . was working 07:38:55 struan: oh it was you (: 07:39:02 no not me :D 07:39:07 time&date . . . . . . 2010 12 25 18 28 25 ok 07:39:23 struan: oh it was not you (: 07:39:46 the channel is logged, you can find them in log, if you wish. 07:39:58 but I don't think you really want it 07:40:37 the guy seems to have real radio broadcasting in his head 07:40:37 I don't think anything useful was said. 07:41:12 I did a quick grep through the source and the error message seems to be ?? error# - char# within line. 07:42:26 That conversation was on the 15th if you want to look for yourself. 07:42:44 I'm sure that he can't get anywhere unless he radically changes it. 07:43:35 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:43:55 if anyone can recommend a way to play or work with it in simulator, 07:44:20 I could offer more help. 07:44:25 perhaps. 07:44:34 Yeah, I don't have any hardware. 07:46:28 Contrarywise I think that it was useful to grok that error reportage is broken. 07:47:01 ...because it was realised which way it is broken exactly. 07:47:31 (or approximatly) 07:49:15 Alright, now it's time to make another significant change to pforth. 07:49:38 The way FFI is done there doesn't satisfy me at all. 08:04:23 uhm.. hm. porting amforth to c would be too much work for me, but then i could expand it for some cheap display and keyboard 08:05:32 i looked for other forth derivates for avrs, but there is not really much documentation in the webs 08:30:52 If C matters, it's better to get existing implementation. 08:31:25 * ASau hints at pforth and ficl. 08:34:05 ASau: speaking of C, did you ever figure out if you needed to do anything special to get CATCH/THROW working across multiple levels of calling between C and Forth? 08:40:51 no, nothing special needed. 08:41:52 well... 08:42:12 except that every setjmp/longjmp should follow the same protocol. 08:42:42 Otherwise some catches unwind stacks while others don't. 08:43:11 OK, that's what I thought. 08:54:25 struan: OK, I did some further browsing through the amforth 4.2 source. 08:55:20 The error report should be "?? errcode column#". 08:55:23 --- join: tgunr (~tgunr@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 08:55:52 Looks like the error code can only be -42 (stack underflow) or -13 (word not found?). 08:57:48 I have no idea why it would stop working after that...the code looks OK to me. 09:02:31 * ASau wonders how it handles "0 >r" 09:03:30 heh 09:04:46 Is there any simulator? 09:05:03 I don't know enough about the Arduino/AVRs to be able to tell. 09:05:10 Doesn't really look like it. 09:07:45 Sounds like the windows AVR studio has a simulator, so no-one has bothered writing one. 09:30:18 hm thanks.. but amforth is quite monolithic - i've seen on forthfreak.net that there are over 100 forthsystems 09:31:00 would take a while to look them all trough 09:40:31 Not all of them are actively supported. :) 09:41:46 Heh. Probably *most* of them aren't actively supported. 09:41:48 most aren't actively supported 09:44:02 I don't think you really have other options for Forths on the avr. 09:44:17 If you're going to play with Forth on the desktop, gforth is a good starting place. 09:47:28 If you're on Windows, Win32Forth may also be a good one. 09:53:41 yeah.. i took a look at one or too.. one had docs from 1995, the other one last change 2010 09:54:00 i'm on linux 09:54:14 gforth is rather evil and bad thing. 09:56:58 on windows there's SP-Forth, which at most is as evil, yet it is dual-platform 09:58:07 in addition you get web server :) 09:58:22 (gavino's dream) 10:00:25 gforth has made 2 evil things recently: 10:00:37 1. gplv3 10:00:52 2. ffi requiring c compiler at run time. 10:02:37 You can try SP-Forth there. 10:02:52 ygrek (sometimes appears on this channel) worked on the port. 10:03:22 * ASau hints at pForth and FICL 10:08:16 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 10:08:45 tathi: btw, nice example of "free as in freedom" is squeak. 10:09:31 they had unclear licensing in past, and gradually converted to MIT licence. 10:10:11 since then they either coerced contributors to accept freedom as standard 10:10:37 or just pushed some gpl-lovers away. 10:12:56 hehe.. i've read the licence for the datasheets for avr atmegas - funny.. like "you can use the docs as long as we like. when we say 'now', delete all documents from atmel" 10:15:02 ASau: can I turn off the stack printing in pforth? 10:25:02 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.214.175) joined #forth 11:17:50 C-Keen: I think it's TRACE-STACK OFF 11:18:21 ASau: yeah, I don't have a problem with the GPL. 11:18:54 Actually, I kinda prefer it. 11:21:58 thanks tathi 11:22:19 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 11:46:58 --- quit: tgunr (Quit: Leaving...) 12:48:55 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:50:38 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:03:30 --- join: tgunr (~tgunr@cust-66-249-166-13.static.o1.com) joined #forth 13:04:14 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:07:17 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:10:11 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 13:44:52 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:54:03 --- quit: tgunr (Quit: Leaving...) 13:54:17 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:03:49 --- join: Ix]fVS\WF (~malyn@server.strangeGizmo.com) joined #forth 14:04:15 --- quit: malyn (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:04:45 --- nick: Ix]fVS\WF -> malyn 14:09:50 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:25:44 My folks gave me music for some of Brahms's Hungarian dances for four-hand piano, and a CD of Yaara Tal and Andreas Groethuysen playing them. 14:26:01 They're so much fun; I've been listening to them off and on all afternoon. 14:26:43 But my technique is rusty. It's going to take me a while to get anywhere with playing them. :( 14:45:56 --- quit: qFox (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:49:10 i took a look at some bach notes today - i miss my cheap keyboard, i was about to scribble the notes down to let them render 14:53:14 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 15:20:41 --- quit: MayDaniel () 15:23:28 --- quit: struan (Quit: Verlassend) 16:04:27 --- quit: tathi (Quit: leaving) 16:32:20 --- join: crc_ (~quassel@li125-93.members.linode.com) joined #forth 16:34:29 --- join: C-Keen_ (ckeen@pestilenz.org) joined #forth 16:35:03 --- quit: dom96 (Disconnected by services) 16:35:54 --- join: dom96 (~dom96@unaffiliated/dom96) joined #forth 16:39:40 --- quit: crc (*.net *.split) 16:39:42 --- quit: C-Keen (*.net *.split) 16:39:52 --- nick: C-Keen_ -> C-Keen 16:46:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc_ 16:46:54 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 18:45:09 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@75.53.203.31) joined #forth 19:10:44 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 19:35:52 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 19:42:57 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.214.175) joined #forth 20:45:31 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@adsl-75-53-203-31.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 21:03:00 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 21:40:00 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@adsl-75-53-203-31.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 22:22:37 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 22:30:13 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@c-68-84-165-215.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:52:03 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 23:37:34 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 23:38:27 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.214.175) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.12.25