00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.12.13 02:06:28 --- quit: qFox (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:46:40 --- join: PoppaVic (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 05:18:28 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 05:26:32 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:36:21 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:14:08 --- join: crc_work (d8012b82@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.1.43.130) joined #forth 08:03:06 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 10:04:41 --- log: started forth/10.12.13 10:04:41 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 10:04:41 --- topic: 'The Forth programming language, etc. | Logged by clog | forth.pastebin.ca | quartus.net/search | gforth: tinyurl.com/s8uho | isforth.com | ANS Standard: tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Wiki: forthfreak.net | This channel is mostly idle; if you ask a question, have patience and check the logs at http://bit.ly/91toWN' 10:04:41 --- topic: set by crc!~quassel@li125-93.members.linode.com on [Thu Nov 04 13:17:14 2010] 10:04:41 --- names: list (clog MayDaniel scott0070 Monev ams mathrick gogonkt malyn crc_work PoppaVic Snoopy_1611 martinhex ASau Judofyr segher TreyB schme cataska nighty nighty^ @crc probonono C-Keen saper KipIngram1 yiyus_ dom96 nottwo appamatto yiyus) 10:05:40 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:13:14 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@67-194-103-190.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 10:28:48 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 10:40:14 --- quit: crc_work (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 10:42:12 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@67-194-103-243.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 10:50:16 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:40:51 --- quit: crc (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 11:41:13 --- join: crc (~quassel@li125-93.members.linode.com) joined #forth 12:05:44 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-110.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 13:45:14 --- join: forther (~forther@c-24-5-186-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:52:30 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 15:07:13 --- join: roarde (~roarde@pdpc/supporter/active/sixforty) joined #forth 15:34:51 not a peep in this room for several days! 15:35:07 sad, ain't it? 15:35:19 is Forth dying? 15:35:19 Do you have anything to say? 15:35:32 Forth is dead for 20 years already. 15:36:07 Nothing to say 15:36:15 Then why inquire? 15:36:59 well, the russkie wins 15:37:00 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 15:41:49 ASau, do you like Forth? 15:42:27 Depends on your understanding what Forth is. 15:42:44 * roarde bites: What is Forth? 15:43:15 something you can read about in Broudie books 15:43:33 Then I hate Forth. 15:43:36 or (as it was in my case) from Baranov book 15:43:50 Baranov's Forth isn't any better. 15:44:17 Neither is Semjonov's. 15:44:37 so, your activity in this channel and in c.l.f. is just an act of hate? 15:44:45 (As it was in my case.) 15:44:57 I didn't like Semeonov neither 15:45:05 k, then: What is Good Forth, ASau? 15:45:08 Yes, I want to change Forth that I hate into Forth that I could like. 15:45:48 ASau, isn't it easier just to switch to Scheme and forget about this ugly place forever? 15:46:06 That's hard to tell. 15:49:46 or you just have fun annoying others, who like forth ... 15:50:22 forther, have you tried factor?- 15:50:29 Sometimes ignorance is funny, yes. 15:50:35 last one would explain your behavior just fine 15:50:46 Though that's sad thing. 15:50:47 appamatto, not really 15:51:18 ASau, yep, and this sad thing called "trolling" 15:51:37 Note, that I never troll. 15:51:50 My questions are precise and deal with real defects. 15:55:10 But I admit that it is easier to call one a troll than to answer hard question. ;) 15:56:32 well, if that hard question was rhetoric . then it's still trolling 15:58:47 That depends on what you call rhetoric. 15:58:51 Consider gavino. 15:59:14 He asks pretty valid question: 15:59:19 if Forth is really so nice, where's software? 15:59:43 E.g. web servers, frameworks, and so on. 16:00:26 Lispniks tell him, "go install Hunchentoot or CL-HTTP, go install UCW or Weblocks, 16:00:39 --- quit: Monev (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:00:45 or a bunch of other less known servers/frameworks." 16:01:10 See cliki.net or cl-user.net, they're written in Lisp. 16:01:20 This is valid answer. 16:01:43 gavno IS troll 16:02:08 He is troll in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.scheme. 16:02:18 There he repeats questions with known answers. 16:02:34 I think he participates into c.l.f. too 16:02:42 On contrast, clf doesn't know about acWeb, 16:02:55 I know 16:02:59 and the only other server is gforth's concept-of-proof joke. 16:03:16 about acWeb 16:03:30 You know, others don't. 16:03:46 because they don't care 16:03:52 Alright, Forth may not suit for web programming. 16:03:59 it doesn't really prove anything 16:04:07 http server ... big deal 16:04:11 What is the other software? 16:04:23 forther: http server is actually big deal. 16:04:30 no 16:04:51 OS effectivity underneath IS big deal 16:05:05 It isn't rocket science, and at the time it is considered as software to prove language's viability. 16:05:31 That's not the point anyway. 16:05:47 It is _perfectly_ valid to answer like this, 16:06:15 "no, there's no web servers in Forth because it doesn't suit to write web server. 16:06:24 it isn't effective or whatver 16:06:46 "instead we have <>" 16:07:39 but ... there's nothing in Forth what makes him bad for web server 16:07:43 Unfortunatly, this <> is ER's recollections about that airport of mid 70s. 16:07:50 forther: that's the point. 16:08:15 only explanation there's just one around is there are very few real forth prohrammers around 16:08:35 The lack of web server undermines all propaganda of SF/TF, 16:08:36 ER is long time retired 16:08:41 or ER, or anyone's else. 16:09:02 --- join: Monev (~nal@67.224.207.190) joined #forth 16:09:02 good example is Chuck's OK 16:09:25 Alright, now you have got one strong point. 16:09:26 the one he use to build the chips 16:09:41 Forth is good to write some (rather primitive) CAD software. 16:09:55 Very special that only CM can use. 16:10:01 :\ 16:10:02 well "rather primitive" is one word 16:10:16 ok, forther -- just throw me a copy of the chip simulators. I'm running a linux, btw. 16:10:23 the other word is fastest 16:10:53 softsim is available from Chuck's side 16:11:11 forther: the problem is that... 16:11:14 how can you check it? 16:11:17 right, and the sight suggests access for me via WINE 16:11:21 if you are not comfortable with colorforth you can download text forth version from intellasys 16:11:33 not happening. bad idea. and why does a forth need WINE? 16:11:54 because they didn't port it to linux yet 16:12:09 and they won't. they can't. 16:12:17 bs 16:12:32 porting to posix would be more productive and to the point, anyway 16:12:54 and where's the v4 kernel code? 16:12:55 posix??!! 16:12:55 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@205-36.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 16:13:19 forther: there's plenty software around that works across platforms with minimal to no changes. 16:13:34 This is what is called "portability". 16:13:42 all they need is to read/write from the file and draw into framescreen 16:14:01 that's all your "posix" 16:14:10 right, yet they can't do it, or they wouldn't be suggesting wine 16:14:13 even framescreen is not posix 16:14:24 susv4, then 16:14:27 they are not interested 16:14:38 some are happy with native CF 16:14:47 the others are happy with windows 16:14:49 forther: another problem with your example is CM-CF. 16:15:14 It is basically separate dialect that is more like separate language. 16:15:31 Something like Scheme-Lisp schism. 16:15:40 ok. may be. 16:15:59 And that's what I'm seeing with *forth. Those who use it get happy in their own little world and play and stay there without producing much of use. 16:16:03 roarde, what's susv4? 16:16:19 Future SUS version. 16:16:25 roarde, they produce chips 16:16:39 it's what they doing for living 16:16:40 forther: yes, but where're those chips? 16:16:49 Single Unix Specification version 4. Includes X with posix, basically. 16:17:04 s40 are on sale 16:17:13 ga144 are on sale 16:17:14 They occupy pretty narrow market niche. 16:17:36 Even CM himself has problems programming them. 16:17:39 but ga144 will be shiped q1 2011 16:17:43 As you can read in his weblog. 16:18:06 why "Even"? 16:18:30 do you think Ford must be formula 1 chempion? 16:18:31 Since you follow clf, you know what rickman and JP talk about. 16:18:47 No, but you know how to use Ford. 16:18:53 I don't read everything there 16:18:54 How to make use of it. 16:19:14 I remember two major points from there: 16:19:24 Ford's easy to use: Make a zillion payments while it rusts away in the back yard. 16:19:35 1. It is too unusual to program, thus one needs to provide courses. 16:19:54 2. Still unknow area of application, it is hard to compare. 16:20:03 unknow and unclear 16:20:18 all the manycores and fpga are unusual to program 16:20:44 fpga vs. programming? 16:20:52 Oh, and 3. It unclear what to do if company goes out of market. 16:21:02 when they asked I shown them the apps 16:21:42 roarde, you have to program fpga too 16:23:04 ah. being closer to solder than to software, I first thought of a different fpga. 16:24:08 #3 is the problem for anything, except pentiums and ARMs 16:24:55 still when one company goes out another gets it's assets, if it worse it 16:25:36 BTW, do you, guys, need more examples of trolling? 16:26:06 NIce of you to offer, forther, but you'll do just fine. 16:27:35 I know 16:27:59 forther: MIPS license production of compatible chips too. 16:28:52 haven's seen much of tem recently 16:29:09 looks like ARM takes over everything ... 16:29:22 You can buy nice chinese laptop with MIPS64 inside. 16:30:03 why should I? because they dirt chip? 16:30:34 Alright, not you, but some buy. 16:31:19 This doesn't make Forth nice anyway. 16:31:23 also, I switched to chrome and I don't think they compile for mips 16:31:49 One can point to example of market of Lisp machines. 16:31:50 chrome browser 16:32:08 It makes nice point what happens to programming language that requires unusual hardware support. 16:32:11 I think there's a chromium for mips. Not sure. 16:33:09 I don't think so. their JS engine is too pentium centric 16:33:11 no way 16:35:08 debian's claiming an unstable/experimental package, anyway: http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/chromium-browser.html 16:35:17 ddg chromium mips 16:36:12 wow ... I wonder what js engine they use there ... 16:37:00 debian, like many, posts the source, so go look if wondering's not more fun 16:37:14 * roarde often finds wondering more rewarding 16:37:34 that's what I do right now ... it seems it's v8 16:37:48 forther: note, that you've chosen chrome, which is only one 16:37:48 of free web browsers, and now you don't consider mips as 16:37:48 viable platform 16:38:05 hope it works for ya, or at least you find something useful 16:38:06 not sure how good it is. not that polished as pentium's ones 16:38:23 viable? 16:38:38 I just said I don't need it for myself 16:38:38 Others act the same way: if Forth requires hardware support 16:38:39 or really unusual skills (like being comparable to CM), it isn't 16:38:39 viable language. 16:39:02 yes. and it happens all the time 16:39:37 You can read Pike's notes on what programming language should be today. 16:39:39 until this non-viable solution (architecture or language) is *only* solution 16:39:41 around 16:39:49 Sure. 16:39:52 But is Forth? 16:40:05 I know what Pike think 16:40:49 well at leas forth-like assembly language is the way to program s40 and ga144 16:41:31 Which are very specialised and created to be programmed in Forth-like language. 16:41:35 and for few applications s40 or ga144 is only way to go. for now 16:41:37 Sounds like an art for art. 16:41:43 no 16:42:07 It is still unclear what those applications are, 16:42:13 Actually, I'm looking for another language to use for ga4, or at least f18. 16:42:13 power efficiency is very important issue for some applications 16:42:23 and even if it is true, then Forth is really too specialised. 16:43:05 so be it. we (including you too) will have a job for a while 16:44:05 roarde, did ouy find anything, but machineforth to program ga4 yet? 16:44:32 not looking that hard, will probably build-to-suit 16:44:39 It'll be quite a while. 16:45:14 interesting ... what exactly wrong with existing ones? 16:45:29 I mean ventureforth/machineforth 16:46:38 I'm not talking about array level. just single f18 programming 16:47:44 Can't remember why not venture. 16:48:49 oh. 16:49:09 license, non-disclosure. Definitely not where I'm headed. 16:49:50 non-disclosure?! I thought it's free ... can you point, please? 16:50:17 http://207.47.34.108/download/index.html 16:50:44 That's the result of the d/l link on IntellaSys' page. 16:51:28 you mean: "You shall not duplicate, translate, modify, copy, printout, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, or otherwise tamper with any aspect or part of the Development Package." 16:51:35 that part? 16:52:44 I see. Yes. It sucks. 16:53:01 All-in-all, I'm pretty sure my preference for everything would be cF, but I refuse to install an emulator to start an emulator to load a simulator. 16:53:39 wine is not simulator 16:53:49 just an API convertor 16:54:17 WINE's the emulator; it emulates an API. Nevermind its acronym. 16:55:53 I mean it's not that (if any) slow. Still I would prefer native CF on my macs and linux 16:56:59 I'm refusing on principle and judgement. Despite my presumed preference for the method and even the interface . . . 16:57:36 I'm not sure what's your point ... 16:57:43 . . . any "simple and powerful" thing that requires all that to run on a vanilla machine and OS isn't a good idea. 16:58:28 I presume Chuck said it once. right? 16:58:28 And I still need the source (any source) for the current kernel. 16:59:25 my mistake: "simple" and "powerful". Sold seperately, "and" not included. 17:01:25 Even running native requires one of a small set of vid cards. 17:02:16 nope 17:02:45 how not? You should let GreenArrays know. 17:03:06 Interesting comment on stackoverflow: 17:03:13 One of the coolest things about Forth is that it's so simple you can re-write the entire compiler easier than you can re-write some of the Forth code you'll be running on it, lol. 17:03:29 though it's no laughing matter 17:03:54 Yes, unfortunatly, that's true in some parts. 17:06:18 g2g roarde, good luck in your t18 research 17:06:29 thx, nite. 17:06:46 --- part: forther left #forth 18:56:30 --- quit: Monev (Quit: Monev) 19:14:57 --- quit: scott0070 (Quit: Leaving) 20:41:18 --- join: C-Keen_ (ckeen@pestilenz.org) joined #forth 20:41:31 --- join: saper_ (saper@akson.sgh.waw.pl) joined #forth 20:52:27 --- quit: malyn (*.net *.split) 20:52:27 --- quit: gogonkt (*.net *.split) 20:52:28 --- quit: mathrick (*.net *.split) 20:52:28 --- quit: ams (*.net *.split) 20:52:28 --- quit: Judofyr (*.net *.split) 20:52:31 --- quit: KipIngram1 (*.net *.split) 20:52:31 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (*.net *.split) 20:52:31 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