00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.12.06 01:07:39 --- quit: nighty__ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 02:45:38 --- quit: gogonkt (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:47:40 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.212.158) joined #forth 02:52:15 --- quit: Monev (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:53:42 --- join: Monev (~nal@cvx-ppp-66-50-54-198.coqui.net) joined #forth 03:36:27 --- quit: Monev (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 03:36:42 --- join: Monev (~nal@cvx-ppp-66-50-52-60.coqui.net) joined #forth 03:51:13 --- join: ASau (~user@89-178-188-29.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 04:30:25 --- join: ASau` (~user@95-26-159-226.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 04:34:32 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 04:44:17 --- join: ASau`` (~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 04:47:46 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:24:43 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@91.84.41.221) joined #forth 05:24:45 --- quit: MayDaniel (Changing host) 05:24:45 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 05:41:35 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:48:58 --- nick: ASau`` -> ASau 07:01:20 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 07:02:27 --- join: ASau (~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 07:26:57 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 07:31:56 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:58:26 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@67-194-78-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 09:42:32 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 09:52:12 --- join: PoppaVic (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 09:53:02 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@67-194-78-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 09:56:53 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@67-194-78-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 10:01:01 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 10:02:22 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:12:46 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@67-194-103-165.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 10:14:35 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cm-6-7c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 10:17:48 --- join: gogonkt_ (~info@183.27.212.158) joined #forth 10:17:57 --- quit: gogonkt_ (Client Quit) 10:18:03 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 10:19:08 --- join: ASau (~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 10:20:24 --- quit: MayDaniel () 10:31:55 --- quit: gogonkt (Quit: leaving) 10:32:16 --- join: gogonkt (~info@183.27.212.158) joined #forth 10:33:58 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@67-194-103-165.wireless.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 10:37:19 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 10:51:48 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@i-6.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 11:05:24 --- quit: Judofyr (Remote host closed the connection) 11:30:59 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 11:39:10 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 11:45:33 --- quit: MayDaniel () 11:54:48 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 11:55:54 --- join: Judofyr_ (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 11:55:54 --- quit: Judofyr (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:01:52 --- nick: Judofyr_ -> Judofyr 12:10:50 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-96.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 12:29:59 Do you think forth would make a good calculator? There would be buttons for swap, dup, etc. and possibly some "word" buttons that could be defined from the other primitives 12:30:32 there would also be no memory exposed to the user 12:31:09 man dc 12:31:26 then look for Hewlett-Packard 12:32:48 right, I knew about that, but I was thinking about it being more forth-like 12:36:02 I'd use gforth. a gui-app'd rpn-calculator sounds like HP - that's THE model. 12:36:58 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 12:46:34 appamatto: depends on what you want to use it for. 12:46:56 if that matters, pforth is better for it. 12:47:49 you can input FPN just into prompt without writing special word to convert strings 13:02:39 --- quit: MayDaniel () 13:10:04 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 13:31:04 --- quit: Joseph_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:31:56 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-96.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 13:39:17 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-96.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 13:39:44 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 13:43:10 --- quit: Joseph_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 14:01:58 ASau, what is FPN? 14:02:48 floating point number. 14:03:28 btdthts - My lexing is fine. Still need to beat the engine more. 14:06:55 PoppaVic, what forth do you work on? 14:07:23 huh? gforth and pforth are installed; pforth is nearly readable. 14:08:18 pforth still needs some twekas. 14:08:25 PoppaVic, you said "my lexing" and I was curious whose lexing you meant 14:09:41 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:10:30 --- quit: qFox (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:12:30 appamatto: oh, my own.. Things like number-input, bases, etc. 14:13:17 like everyone else on the planet, I want a nice lil' engine to drop into my C - or to call upon C.. The NeverEnding-Quest 14:14:38 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@carrieriq-fwa002-untru.sjz.navisite.com) joined #forth 14:15:25 PoppaVic: what's wrong with slightly modified pForth? 14:15:41 I know what is wrong with FICL, I'm working on it. 14:16:57 ASau: I got sorta' peeved at pforth.. assuming the terminal, etc.. I'm more targeting gcc/clang and c99+extensions. Besides, it's a hobby ;-)] 14:17:32 what do you mean under "targeting gcc/clang and c99+extensions"? 14:19:04 pforth, iirc, shoots for c89 and a few other things. I'm toying around with something similar, and screw doze entirely 14:19:28 So what? 14:19:43 so-sowhat? You asked. I answered. 14:19:53 What exactly do you want from c99 besides 0-length structure fields? 14:20:10 AFAIK, pForth uses c99. 14:20:10 I don't use them anyway. 14:20:29 That is, it goes besides c89 contrary to claims. 14:20:44 beyond 14:20:52 * PoppaVic just SMiles and Waves.. 14:28:16 Is there a good place to ask about copyright etc.? 14:28:34 a judge? 14:28:42 a lawyer - if you trust either. 14:28:48 What's to ask? 14:29:01 Well, I was thinking about making a free version of imdb 14:29:18 appamatto: define "good" 14:29:33 and they offer their database as a bunch of text files 14:29:44 And a lot of it is simply factual, who was in what movie etc. 14:30:04 You can't simply use their database. 14:30:04 And I'm thinking, can factual information really be copyright? 14:30:09 No. 14:30:15 But the database is. 14:30:53 So why don't I just copy the info and not the database? 14:30:55 European Union has a special "sui generis" provisions for databases 14:30:56 Information isn't protected by copyright. 14:31:51 So I could import their database into mine and it would therefore be not their database but contain their info? 14:32:00 saper, what is sui generis? 14:32:20 appamatto: no. 14:32:22 oh I see 14:32:58 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 14:33:38 I don't think people realize when they contribute to imdb how asymmetrical their relationship is 14:34:34 People don't think and don't realize. 14:35:41 I wonder if a free alternative could compete, it'd really only be useful for small companies that need to leverage the data without paying tons of cash 14:36:53 There's one problem: someone still has to pay. 14:37:08 At least for hosting. 14:37:11 appamatto: "by itself", not because of copyright or something else. Just because it's a database. 14:37:15 not necessarily more than they benefit 14:37:39 Yes, but how much do they benefit? 14:38:03 Well, I would benefit a lot because I would save time looking up movie ratings before I decide what to watch 14:38:22 You can do it in IMDB for free. 14:39:04 It takes too much time because I have to do a google search, usually in my mobile browser 14:39:15 appamatto: if you're interested, I can explain what may be problems with IMDB 14:39:23 I definitely am interested 14:39:30 though my opinion is based on my law knowledge. 14:39:44 and thus based on local law, not on international or us one. 14:40:03 The main problem there is that DB is protected as encyclopedia. 14:40:18 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@205-36.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 14:40:58 this entails that copyright to some portions of it may be belong to other parties 14:41:04 yeah, I believe that IMDB is protected, because otherwise they wouldn't freely offer their entire database 14:41:28 and there's some contract regulating the use of this information. 14:41:47 IMDB has a very unclear legal status 14:42:28 Two mains problems are that: 14:42:39 a) not all information is in public domain; 14:42:51 saper, how so? 14:43:19 b) the organisation of this information is specific and that is what is protected by law. 14:43:57 saper: it may be unclear to you, but be precise to a lawyer. 14:44:26 appamatto: for instance. 14:44:43 What _is_ in public domain is _original_ raw material. 14:44:56 Like press releases. 14:45:02 Or news. 14:45:12 I wonder if I could scrape wikipedia for movie info and generate an initial database that way 14:45:17 appamatto: look at their licensing page, it says nothing about the actual entries, except for the "whole site" and "software" they license to you 14:45:37 ASau: it is unprecise even to a lawyer, it's well known problem there 14:45:58 But for IMDB they were processed to make them fit into DB. 14:46:30 saper: where "there"? 14:46:45 saper, talking about wiki or imdb licensing? 14:47:59 omg 14:48:04 wikipedia is copyleft 14:48:04 appamatto: in short, if you want to import this DB into yours, 14:48:18 ASau: "with IMDB" 14:48:23 appamatto: about imdb 14:48:37 appamatto: you have to deconstruct it into raw facts first. 14:49:30 saper: I've told above that by local law DB is protected. 14:50:19 I hope wikipedia owns its copyrights so that it can eventually free its content 14:50:25 It is well known fact that processed information may be protected otherwise than raw one. 14:51:08 appamatto: Wikimedia Foundation does not own copyright to the Wikipedia text, it's owned by the respective authors. 14:51:32 holy crap 14:51:49 why? 14:52:11 Well, I just think copyleft is pretty nasty 14:52:35 I agree. 14:53:02 It's not as bad for text since text isn't really a building block 14:53:14 No, it is bad for text as well. 14:53:23 but... who knows how someone might want to use wiki content 14:53:43 So what? 14:53:55 This isn't reasonable argument. 14:53:56 appamatto: all authors submitted it granting GFDL or CC-BY-SA license 14:54:18 ASau, what part? 14:54:30 saper, nuts 14:54:40 appamatto: why? 14:54:57 appamatto: in whole. 14:55:01 not perfect, given how crappy gfdl is, but works 14:55:45 it doesn't make any difference if anything is simply copyrighted 14:55:45 or copyrighted perversely (copylefted) to any information user. 14:55:50 Does copyleft really hold up in court? 14:55:59 It depends on the court. 14:56:01 It seems like too much of an imposition on the modifier 14:56:46 appamatto: I think that you miss the point. 14:56:54 http://gpl-violations.org/ claims a 100% success rate 14:56:54 "Copyleft" is essentially copyright. 14:57:06 They may claim whatever they wish. 14:57:43 Well, they can't claim that by reading the license you owe them your firstborn child 14:57:52 or at least, that won't hold up in court 14:58:00 Yes, because there're overruling laws. 14:58:31 For instance, GPL isn't valid in Germany in its entirety. 14:59:01 (last time I heard it) 14:59:39 well 15:01:22 read this http://www.jbb.de/judgment_dc_frankfurt_gpl.pdf then 15:01:49 --- quit: TreyB (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 15:01:51 If the GPL wasn't valid, what would happen to GPLed software? 15:02:09 Would it become undistributable, or would it devolve into a permissive license? 15:03:57 saper: it deals with articles that are valid. what do you want to demonstrate? 15:04:26 ASau: the court applied GPL as the standard terms and conditions according to the BGB 15:04:55 where does your assumption "GPL isn't valid in Germany" come from? 15:05:05 saper: because those parts of GPL are valid in Germany. 15:05:22 those parts that are not valid are not considered in this case. 15:05:28 which parts? 15:05:39 Disclaimer of liability. 15:06:14 but you said 'in its entirety' 15:07:13 Yes, if there were damages that are ruled by overriding law, 15:07:44 the contract as established by licence would be declared void in respective parts. 15:08:16 you are just plain wrong. Nobody has invalidated GPL in its entirety under any German court. 15:08:27 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@carrieriq-fwa002-untru.sjz.navisite.com) joined #forth 15:08:31 I'm just plain right. 15:08:45 isn't the disclaimer serevable from the other parts? 15:08:48 You can't disclaim liability in full. 15:08:55 like you do in U.S.A. 15:09:01 i.e. if it were invalid it wouldn't invalidate the rest of the license 15:09:05 that does not invalidate the license agreement 15:09:36 but that invalidates parts of it. 15:09:43 Not entire licence is valid. 15:12:09 "23:58 < ASau> For instance, GPL isn't valid in Germany in its entirety." 15:13:01 Yes, not all GPL articles are valid. 15:15:10 what I think you are referring to is this 2003 study: http://web.archive.org/web/20030806063158/http://www.vsi.de/inhalte/aktuell/studie_final_safe.pdf 15:20:12 a non-copyleft wiki would have no chance to compete 15:20:52 Why?? 15:21:23 because wiki is huge 15:21:50 Is it abstract wiki or some particular wiki? 15:21:55 wikipedia 15:22:24 baseless statement 15:22:27 a public domain (or ISC-licensed) version of wikipedia 15:22:35 wikipedia was small some time ago. 15:22:38 Do you think it could compete? 15:22:43 Why not? 15:22:59 Well, for one thing copyleft seems much less problematic for an encyclopedia 15:23:19 Why??? 15:23:25 for instance, what projects are blocked due to wikipedia's content license? 15:23:50 For instance I don't write for wikipedia anymore. 15:23:57 In particular because of licence. 15:24:53 This might be interesting 15:25:06 Is that the only reason you don't write anymore? 15:25:15 Not the only one. 15:26:42 Hmm, well it might be hard to compete solely on content license 15:29:03 Yes. 15:29:21 Licence isn't relevant at all for this kind of work. 15:30:20 I've seen some other specialized wikis that are quite good, like the nethack wiki 15:32:00 For the freed imdb there is a huge advantage because you can offer an API for the info 15:32:07 maybe that's the key for wiki as well 15:32:26 A freed version would allow commercial mashups 15:32:28 You can write it for IMDB itself. 15:34:32 I don't think so 15:34:55 It's against their TOS to scrape, I believe 15:35:56 I think the best you can do is to link to imdb pages 15:51:15 --- join: tathi (~josh@dsl-216-227-95-5.fairpoint.net) joined #forth 15:52:20 ASau: did you know that WORD in pforth capitalizes all the letters in the parsed text? 15:53:54 I'm not expecting you to fix it, just curious. 15:54:12 I just happened to notice it today. 15:55:55 tathi: I may have noticed it in past. 15:56:07 "We're working on it."(c) 16:18:48 what's the pforth fixation this week? ;-) 16:45:37 --- join: Judofyr_ (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 16:48:04 --- quit: Judofyr (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:18:15 --- quit: tic (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 17:26:41 --- join: tic (~tic@c83-249-196-184.bredband.comhem.se) joined #forth 17:29:03 Hey ASau and saper, I found this: http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html 17:30:44 This seems to imply that the factual parts of databases (without their creative organization) are not protected under US copyright 18:00:37 I think you don't understand "DB" issues. 18:01:27 IMDB is more than just a set of facts. 18:04:57 And there's slippery ruling on copyright v. contract. 18:07:14 --- quit: Monev (Quit: Monev) 18:16:28 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 18:19:27 --- quit: Judofyr_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 18:25:23 Damn. 18:25:44 My bright idea was published in Journal of Functional Programming 10 years ago. 18:25:57 Plagiators. 18:26:00 heh. 18:26:06 next! 18:26:07 What bright idea is that/ 18:26:08 ? 18:27:27 Xavier Leroy, A modular module system. JFP, 10, pp 269-303. 18:27:47 I think you're skillful enough to find it. :) 18:54:04 --- quit: probonono (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:56:39 --- join: probonono (~User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 19:23:46 Ah, I see. 19:44:32 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 () 19:44:58 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@188.107.199.113) joined #forth 19:45:13 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Client Quit) 19:45:58 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@178.4.223.140) joined #forth 19:51:55 --- quit: tathi (Quit: 'night all!) 20:15:24 --- quit: probonono (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:17:46 --- join: probonono (~User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 20:27:23 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@178.4.28.86) joined #forth 20:31:20 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 20:45:52 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 20:53:50 --- nick: Snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy_1611 23:04:59 --- log: started forth/10.12.06 23:04:59 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 23:04:59 --- topic: 'The Forth programming language, etc. | Logged by clog | forth.pastebin.ca | quartus.net/search | gforth: tinyurl.com/s8uho | isforth.com | ANS Standard: tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Wiki: forthfreak.net | This channel is mostly idle; if you ask a question, have patience and check the logs at http://bit.ly/91toWN' 23:04:59 --- topic: set by crc!~quassel@li125-93.members.linode.com on [Thu Nov 04 13:17:14 2010] 23:04:59 --- names: list (clog probonono Snoopy_1611 Judofyr tic Deformative gogonkt ASau PoppaVic mathrick malyn segher schmrkc C-Keen cataska appamatto yiyus nighty^ nottwo koisoke_ dom96 yiyus_ KipIngram1 saper @crc ams) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.12.06