00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.12.05 00:00:03 --- quit: PoppaVic (Quit: Smile and Wave, Boys.. Smile and Wave..) 00:27:14 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cm-6-7c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 01:24:05 appamatto: there's always gpl talk. 01:37:34 I was thinking about blogging about BSD and other permissive software 01:37:53 cataloging replacements for GNU components etc. :p 01:38:50 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@j-24.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 02:59:20 What GNU components need replacement? 03:23:09 --- quit: qFox (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:32:52 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 04:47:44 gforth needs replacement. 04:47:53 and SP-Forth needs replacement. 04:48:13 Other components are not interested in the channel context. 05:40:13 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 06:19:03 I can't think of that many others. 06:28:09 --- quit: MayDaniel () 06:40:42 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 06:41:37 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 08:00:56 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 08:38:42 --- join: roarde (~roarde@pdpc/supporter/active/sixforty) joined #forth 08:59:10 --- join: Joseph_ (~Joseph@205-36.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 09:01:24 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 09:11:49 --- join: Monev (~nal@67.224.219.5) joined #forth 11:13:19 --- log: started forth/10.12.05 11:13:19 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 11:13:19 --- topic: 'The Forth programming language, etc. | Logged by clog | forth.pastebin.ca | quartus.net/search | gforth: tinyurl.com/s8uho | isforth.com | ANS Standard: tinyurl.com/nx7dx | Wiki: forthfreak.net | This channel is mostly idle; if you ask a question, have patience and check the logs at http://bit.ly/91toWN' 11:13:19 --- topic: set by crc!~quassel@li125-93.members.linode.com on [Thu Nov 04 13:17:14 2010] 11:13:19 --- names: list (clog ASau tic malyn Monev Joseph_ roarde Judofyr gogonkt mathrick segher Snoopy_1611 schmrkc C-Keen cataska ams crc saper KipIngram1 yiyus_ dom96 koisoke_ nottwo nighty^ appamatto yiyus) 11:22:54 --- join: qFox (~C00K13S@5356B263.cm-6-7c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #forth 11:50:47 schmrkc, the main editors are copyleft 11:56:09 No. 11:56:34 Care to elaborate? :) 11:56:46 jedit and emacs are gpl, vim is copyleft 11:57:48 Neither NotePad nor WordPad nor Word are copyleft. 11:57:54 So are ed and vi. 11:58:38 mg is mostly public domain 11:58:59 but these have very low usage share as programmer's editors 11:58:59 which is far from being "copyleft" 11:59:10 Oh. 11:59:16 ASau, again, I said the "main" editors are copyleft 11:59:22 MS VS isn't "copyleft" 11:59:39 Neither jedit nor emacs are "main". 12:00:26 I think emacs and jedit are both heavily used 12:00:54 Eclipse may be used more than VS, I'm not sure 12:01:04 Quite not so. 12:02:04 You have restricted yourself to "copyleft" framework and do not notice anything outside your small world. 12:03:12 Well, I certainly wasn't considering Windows 12:05:23 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 12:06:12 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 12:06:16 * crc uses jpico and nano, both of which are gpl 12:06:19 In any case, I'd consider Eclipse, VS, Xcode etc. to be IDEs 12:06:29 crc, no emacs or vim? 12:07:13 I occasionally use emacs (aquamacs) and vi (on an aix box) 12:07:32 emacs only when editing code in lisp varients 12:07:51 and vi when the other choice is ed 12:07:58 appamatto: NT and OSX make almost the whole desktop market. 12:08:12 ASau, what about developer share? 12:08:18 What about it? 12:08:37 How many developers work in copyleft world? 12:08:44 Well, programmer's editors are used by programmers, and I think many more programmers use Linux and OS X 12:09:00 You're definitly wrong. 12:09:15 You can open job lists and check it yourself. 12:09:30 If the desktop share is 10% OS X then I bet the programmer share is at least 20% OS X, maybe 10% Linux 12:10:52 Here the ratio is at most 1:5. 12:11:04 Where is here? 12:11:08 Here. 12:11:15 #forth? 12:11:30 This is 1 non-NT programmer v. 5 NT programmers. 12:12:08 And this is in server oriented sector. 12:12:35 ASau, great job, friend 12:12:38 Guess how these figures change if we consider desktop. 12:13:32 In any case, emacs and vim are both copyleft and there isn't an obvious alternative with similar functionality 12:15:03 In any case, Notepad and Word are not copyleft and there is no fully functional alternative. 12:15:10 At least to Word. 12:16:21 I think there are BSD-licensed alternatives to notepad 12:16:32 Word has openoffice, which is copyleft 12:16:55 [...] there is no fully functional alternative. 12:16:55 12:17:08 Words do matter. 12:17:16 I use openoffice at work, and it's fully functional for my uses 12:17:33 What are you so upset about? 12:17:39 * crc uses applications at work that require word and excel to function 12:17:53 I have converted the a company to OpenOffice in past. 12:17:55 and internet explorer :( 12:17:58 No, it doesn't work. 12:20:12 There are starting to be non-copyleft alternatives for a bunch of key software though, such as clang and chromium 12:20:21 It's pretty awesome 12:21:57 That's why I was talking about programmer's editors, because it seems to be a last major piece 12:22:04 (for programmers) 12:22:15 Is it possible or likely to successfully build and run Chromium on a non-proprietary, non-copyleft system without copyleft libs or etc? 12:22:53 roarde: that's interesting question. 12:23:02 Well, right now you need some copyleft tools to build things with clang, like the gnu assembler 12:23:29 roarde: it seems to depend on a bunch of gnuware. 12:23:38 There is also a C++ standard library in the works 12:24:09 but, once those are completed it seems like you could run chromium on freebsd without any copyleft stuff 12:24:19 Unlikely. 12:24:48 And it's not about absolutely removing copyleft, it's an incremental process 12:24:59 ASau, what would you need? 12:25:15 appamatto: check chromium dependencies. 12:25:40 appamatto: http://wiki.freebsd.org/Chromium has a list of dependencies 12:26:12 yeah, you're right, you need things like gtk 12:27:27 So it would be a long time before you could build chromium without copyleft libraries 12:30:07 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 12:33:53 I want to do anything using only [propretary|copyleft|freed] software. 12:34:15 It's the "freed" part that just needs more people to tug on the rope. 12:34:26 you mean, only one of those at a time? 12:34:56 --- join: MayDaniel (~MayDaniel@unaffiliated/maydaniel) joined #forth 12:35:09 roarde: depends on what exactly you wants to do. 12:35:25 Choosing any one, do anything. Proprietary works. Copyleft very nearly so. Freed stuff lacks a great deal. 12:35:47 yeah, I agree 12:36:00 Mainly need more horses. 12:36:06 Although when I use proprietary software it tends to rely heavily on copyleft 12:36:20 For instance iPhone development 12:36:28 roarde: writing compiler isn't such a big deal. 12:36:59 Doing anything needs more horses and more time than you first think. 12:38:09 0. 12:38:23 I think a lot of people use/improve copyleft software thinking that it is freed software 12:38:37 I use gpl 12:38:49 I use gpl'd software, but don't work on improving it 12:38:56 * crc hates this keyboard 12:38:56 yeah 12:38:58 I use "freed" to distinguish it from "free". 12:39:15 roarde, I like that 12:39:34 I don't think so. 12:40:00 If I come upon an improvement for gpl'd that I use that can be sent upstream without cutting off freed stuff, I upstream. 12:40:06 In my experience, more people work on copyleft software because they fell victims to rms propaganda. 12:40:42 ASau, yes, I agree 12:41:04 roarde, what do you mean by "cutting off"? 12:42:35 It's the nature of gpl. Once something's included in gpl, it cannot be legally done under another license. 12:42:49 true 12:42:59 Do you do a copyright assignment? 12:43:15 So I'm careful in what I submit. If I have doubts, I don't submit. 12:44:06 I don't do anything but slight improvements to existing stuff, and very little of that. 12:44:51 For my very rare stand-alone stuff, it can usually get by without such. 12:45:33 If not, very simple MIT-ish or, preferably, gift to pd where allowed. 12:45:46 Trouble is, p doesn't defend its d. 12:46:00 Does it need to be defended? 12:46:22 I know I have an old trout here someplace . . . :D 12:46:45 old trout? Is that a reference I should know? :p 12:47:52 IRC habit, now thankfully just a memory. Still, I wax nostalgic sometimes. 12:48:05 * roarde slaps appamatto with a large trout. 12:48:11 found it 12:49:37 actually, wasn't it "slaps nick around a bit with"? 12:56:19 I believe so 13:07:25 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@k-170.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 13:18:23 --- quit: qFox (Quit: Time for cookies!) 13:20:19 --- quit: MayDaniel (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:22:23 --- nick: roarde -> roarde_ 13:30:38 --- nick: roarde_ -> roarde 14:09:01 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 14:09:54 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 14:14:10 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 14:15:03 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 14:17:22 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 14:33:17 --- quit: Monev (Quit: Monev) 16:07:45 --- quit: roarde (Quit: Leaving.) 16:24:33 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 16:26:04 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 17:48:42 --- join: nighty__ (~nighty@210.188.173.245) joined #forth 18:31:18 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 () 18:38:48 --- join: PoppaVic (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 18:41:36 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-069-144-053.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 19:05:02 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 () 19:16:50 --- join: probonono (~User@unaffiliated/probonono) joined #forth 20:12:56 --- join: Monev (~nal@67.224.219.5) joined #forth 20:43:37 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 20:44:37 --- join: ASau (~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 21:14:14 --- join: Snoopy_1611 (Snoopy_161@188.107.199.113) joined #forth 22:28:12 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 22:53:37 --- quit: mathrick (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 22:57:18 --- join: kar8nga (~kar8nga@m-182.vc-graz.ac.at) joined #forth 22:58:42 --- join: mathrick (~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk) joined #forth 23:25:15 --- quit: kar8nga (Remote host closed the connection) 23:57:55 --- quit: PoppaVic (Quit: Smile and Wave, Boys.. 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