00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.12.04
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00:20:45 <zzo38> I tried making a word overriding by using DOES-CODE! but that doesn't work because the compiled code to call such a word is different.
00:21:11 <appamatto> First time I've heard about pcc
00:22:28 <zzo38> Can you tell me how to correct this problem, please?
00:23:35 <appamatto> What forth are you using?
00:24:03 <appamatto> (I'm fairly new to forth, so not sure if I can help)
00:24:52 <zzo38> Gforth
00:35:13 <zzo38> If you are new to Forth, tell me if you have a question, too. I might or might not know the answer of your question.
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04:57:10 <schmrkc> O_o
05:19:12 <ASau> What?
05:19:27 <ASau> Sounds like another "september."
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06:31:27 <schmrkc> ASau: "september" ?
06:31:55 <ASau> When does academic year start there?
06:32:41 <ASau> Lookup "eternal september" in jargon file.
06:33:55 <schmrkc> ASau: I was puzzled by what zzo38 was asking.
06:34:12 <ASau> I don't understand it in full either.
06:34:56 <schmrkc> I think he wants to get all his words using DOES-CODE! recompiled.
06:34:59 * schmrkc shrugs.
06:35:11 <ASau> I don't even know what it does.
06:35:17 <schmrkc> me neither.
06:35:26 <ASau> This is something gforth-specific.
06:35:38 <schmrkc> dodoes: over ! cell+ ! ;
06:35:39 <ASau> "carnal knowledge" :D
06:35:51 <schmrkc> well doedoes was brilliant.
06:36:12 <schmrkc> see dodoes:  =>   : dodoes: 140299348050976 @ ;
06:37:04 <ASau> All this area is shaky ground.
06:38:28 <ASau> "does>" is controversial Forth merit.
06:39:17 <schmrkc> give 'em enough rope, etc.
06:40:35 <ASau> It still isn't clear, if having no "does>" really doesn't bring any improvement.
06:44:12 <schmrkc> oh hush. Have you not been informed that it brings functionality to forth that makes forth shine out through the masses, and with it you can do things nothing else will ever let you do?
06:44:40 <ASau> :)
06:45:01 <ASau> Yeah.
06:45:36 <ASau> This religious zeal is sometimes amusing.
06:45:56 <ASau> Except when it becomes extremely annoying.
06:46:07 <schmrkc> Now that you have me thinking about it I don't think that I use does> all that extremely much.
06:46:10 * schmrkc nods nods.
06:46:17 <schmrkc> lisp has it worse it seems :)
06:47:09 <ASau> At least they don't write standard proposals on bi-monthly basis.
06:47:45 <ASau> Plus, there're much more educated people in the community,
06:48:12 <schmrkc> Yeah.  Usually it's just people pretty new to lisp who are religious nutters.
06:48:14 <ASau> many of them didn't waste their time in university.
06:48:46 <schmrkc> Just the other day someone accused me for trolling because I disagreed with the FACT that "once you have learnt lisp then working in anything else will be a painful experience"
06:49:15 <ASau> At least, there's no problem in finding people who
06:49:15 <ASau> understand what is methodologically correct experiment.
06:50:11 <schmrkc> oh well it's all good.
06:50:23 <ASau> Forth community is dominated by hugh aguilars.
06:50:46 <schmrkc> I didn't even know there was a forth community.
06:50:58 <ASau> news:comp.lang.forth
06:51:04 <schmrkc> aha
06:51:24 <schmrkc> my ISP figured providing a newsserver was not so important so I haven't bothered with usenet for the last 8 years :)
06:51:31 <schmrkc> for good and bad.
06:53:47 <ASau> My impression is that community consists almost completely of old farts,
06:54:11 <ASau> with only some of them suddenly realised how far Forth is
06:54:11 <ASau> lagging behind the rest of the world.
06:54:34 <schmrkc> aha. That is my impression too.
06:54:53 <ASau> But their attempts to catch up look more like updating from state of art of 70s to state of art of 80s.
06:55:43 <schmrkc> I can't really imagining using forth for anything but my "embedded" projects.
06:55:51 <schmrkc> imagine
06:55:58 <schmrkc> which I guess says a lot about forth.
06:56:28 <ASau> I can imagine more, but it still requires significant modifications to Forth.
06:56:37 <schmrkc> Right, that's what I meant.
06:56:54 <ASau> One if them is name spaces or other modularity features.
06:57:10 <schmrkc> I have a hobby of writing backgammon software.   forth is one I have avoided for doing that.
06:57:18 <ASau> Right now I'm tinkering into FICL and pForth.
06:57:33 <ASau> With both resisting substantial changes.
06:58:13 <ASau> I'm thinking about breaking performance microoptimisations in FICL to ease major changes.
06:58:25 <schmrkc> What's the argument against change?  I'm thinking people are going with 'but it has worked up til now, why change it if its not broken?'  which doesn't work if its all OldFarts.
06:58:35 <ASau> For pForth?
06:58:38 <schmrkc> sure.
06:58:43 <ASau> Backward compatibility.
06:58:47 <schmrkc> ouch.
06:58:55 <ASau> It is hard to explain that you _have_ to break it.
06:59:02 <ASau> if you want to achieve any good.
06:59:04 <schmrkc> There's a time for that, yea.
06:59:11 <schmrkc> and ... well..
06:59:26 <schmrkc> porting all pforth software to work with the change.. can't be that much software :)
06:59:31 <ASau> Any program that depends on dictionary layout isn't portable anyway.
06:59:35 <ASau> And never has been.
06:59:52 <schmrkc> depending on dictionary layout??
06:59:57 <ASau> Yes.
07:00:13 <schmrkc> huh.
07:00:35 <ASau> It uses that stupid "optimisation" hack from 80s,
07:00:54 <ASau> when it was usual to have negative displacements in data structures.
07:00:58 <schmrkc> the world of forth makes me sad.
07:01:09 <ASau> In microcomputer field.
07:01:23 <schmrkc> nice.  just 30 years out of date then ;)
07:02:08 <ASau> It is hard to tell exactly.
07:02:24 <ASau> I've seen somewhere on NetBSD list that
07:02:44 <ASau> "libraries that print error messages to stderr are so 70s"
07:02:51 <schmrkc> O_o
07:02:57 <schmrkc> where else should they print e
07:02:59 <schmrkc> 'em?
07:03:10 <ASau> may slightly differ from original.
07:03:27 <ASau> This was from Christos Zoulas, if you know who he is. :)
07:03:32 <schmrkc> Not an idea.
07:03:40 <ASau> One of NetBSD founders.
07:03:47 <schmrkc> I should reinstall netbsd on my laptop I feel. It was a nice environment.
07:04:14 <schmrkc> I hade to install ubuntu over it for Lisa's hospital visit for a while. heff.
07:04:17 <ASau> I thought that libraries that dump error messages to stderr are "so 80s."
07:04:28 <schmrkc> Where should error messages go?
07:04:37 <ASau> Nowhere.
07:05:00 <schmrkc> huh. how do you find 'em then?
07:05:05 <ASau> If you want human readable errors, implement strerror-like interface.
07:05:50 <schmrkc> ya but you need to put that error somewhere, no?
07:06:00 <ASau> That's library.
07:06:18 <schmrkc> oh!
07:06:21 <schmrkc> library
07:06:25 <schmrkc> right now I'm following.
07:06:25 <ASau> If you receive error status code from library function, you can do with it everything what you want.
07:06:32 <schmrkc> yes, I agree 100% there.
07:07:00 <ASau> Just in case you don't follow, this is demonstration that "30 years" may be too optimistic.
07:07:33 <schmrkc> That's something I like with erlang. the caller of things is responsible.
07:08:16 * schmrkc needs more coffee.
07:08:19 <ASau> This is general understanding who is responsible.
07:08:23 <schmrkc> I guess forth will keep dying.
07:08:34 <ASau> It doesn't depend on programming language.
07:08:41 <schmrkc> true true.
07:08:49 <ASau> Sometimes I think that I should try to port Poplog.
07:09:05 <ASau> Or ask Sloman to do that.
07:09:10 <schmrkc> never used no poplog.
07:09:32 <ASau> POP is said to be one of Forth predecessors.
07:10:50 <schmrkc> hmmm..
07:11:37 <schmrkc> comp.lang.pop seems a bit dead.
07:11:40 <ASau> BTW, I have managed to coerce pForth to run my testing & coverage code.
07:11:54 <schmrkc> sounds great. What are you doing with pforth?
07:12:05 <ASau> The result is that coverage dropped from 0,9 to 0,5.
07:12:46 <schmrkc> oops.
07:12:47 <ASau> Some PIM, various data conversion, primitive calculations.
07:12:56 <ASau> Yeah.
07:13:02 <ASau> This shows how portable Forth code is.
07:13:38 <schmrkc> striving for portability, eh.
07:14:04 <schmrkc> I guess that only holds for the vm.
07:14:09 <ASau> More like freedom.
07:14:23 * schmrkc looks around the channel.
07:14:24 <ASau> I'm sick of GPL dictatorship.
07:14:29 <schmrkc> but it's not GPL. How can it be freedom!?
07:14:30 <schmrkc> ;)
07:15:09 <ASau> I don't see there's "free" in "gpl".
07:15:16 <schmrkc> Me neither.
07:15:24 <schmrkc> or some odd definition of what freedom means.
07:15:33 <ASau> Its conditions become more and more obscure each year.
07:15:43 <schmrkc> can't wait for v4.
07:16:32 <ASau> Another joke is FSF selling all rights to Oracle.
07:16:39 <schmrkc> What!?
07:16:57 <ASau> Note that FSF _requires_ to transfer all rights on gnu code to them.
07:17:44 <ASau> Have you seen what happened to Sleepycat and MySQL code?
07:18:07 <schmrkc> See I don't mind the FSF and GPL so much. Just as long as I don't have to use it.  What I do mind is how certain GPL advocates go on endless rants about how BSD-license is the spawn of the devil, etc.
07:18:12 <schmrkc> like they own the word "free"
07:18:20 <schmrkc> nope.
07:18:55 <ASau> Yes, this is what pisses me off.
07:19:16 <schmrkc> and the bizarre ideas about freedom, but that I can live with.
07:19:19 <schmrkc> oh well.
07:19:28 <ASau> They redefine meaning of "free" and talk as if it is the only meaning from now on.
07:19:44 * schmrkc nodsnods.
07:20:06 <schmrkc> with free being "you can do this here. but only if you do this. and you can't do that."
07:21:38 <ASau> The problem isn't that there're conditions.
07:22:08 <ASau> It's that these conditions are obscure and sometimes not even sensible.
07:22:17 <schmrkc> I'm a bit amused by how certain people like to claim other things are "non-free" just because they're not GPL.
07:23:42 <ASau> Alright.
07:24:09 <ASau> If you want some help with pForth or FICL, you know what you can try :)
07:24:14 * schmrkc needs to get some coffee and get something done.
07:24:17 <schmrkc> huff.
07:24:19 <ASau> I'm back to coding tasks.
07:24:30 <schmrkc> maybe I'll try porting it to AROS if I ever get the sdk built.
07:24:47 <ASau> Do you run that old stuff?
07:25:09 <schmrkc> I installed it on my laptop just last week.
07:25:15 <schmrkc> instead of ubuntu.
07:25:23 <ASau> AROS???
07:25:27 <schmrkc> AROS
07:25:42 <ASau> Wasn't it 68k Amiga stuff?
07:26:08 <ASau> (url?)
07:26:09 <schmrkc> well it's to amigaos like reactos to windows I guess.
07:26:18 <schmrkc> and latest amigaos is ppc
07:26:24 <ASau> Ah.
07:26:32 <schmrkc> (because the latest amigas were ppc)
07:26:36 <ASau> So it's still in 68k tradition.
07:26:40 <schmrkc> http://aros.sourceforge.net/
07:26:42 <schmrkc> right.
07:26:44 <ASau> No, I'm in x86 world.
07:26:47 <schmrkc> cept AROS then which runs on x86
07:26:50 <schmrkc> and x86-64
07:27:41 <ASau> Last time I considered buying anything non-x86, I was impressed by price.
07:27:48 <ASau> And this impression was bad.
07:27:50 * schmrkc nods.
07:28:00 <schmrkc> I have been looking at buying an ARM-based laptop and/or desktop.
07:28:13 <schmrkc> but then the EEEPc rocks the arm lappy in every way.
07:28:18 <schmrkc> including battery time. so meh.
07:28:27 <ASau> When they really make their RISCs competitive, I'll reconsider it.
07:28:30 <schmrkc> the new amiga looks somewhat interesting.
07:28:32 <schmrkc> ya
07:28:51 <ASau> I'm consent that it may operate with less peformance,
07:29:02 <ASau> but either not that much or not for that price.
07:29:13 <schmrkc> I'd want more battery time from a lappy. That's my main thing there.  and not at much higher the price.
07:30:17 <ASau> I have looked at sparc server which costs here 2 or 3 times more than better amd64 server.
07:30:26 <schmrkc> ya
07:30:32 <schmrkc> opteron is killing the sparc it seems.
07:31:23 <schmrkc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOne_X1000  is supposed to be coming "late 2010"
07:31:24 <ASau> I have looked at mITX sized single-board computer with MIPS or ARM which costs 1,5x more than better performant i386 or amd64 board.
07:31:30 <schmrkc> ya
07:32:29 <ASau> Sorry, guys.
07:32:38 <schmrkc> yeah time to get shit done.
07:32:53 <ASau> At these costs, I'll buy something conventional.
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13:02:29 <ASau> gcc seems to be smart enough, I'm ready to kill this microoptimisation.
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14:54:34 <PoppaVic> hmm i4 no-mo, eh?
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15:19:04 * ASau is profiling pForth...
15:19:14 <PoppaVic> ahh
15:19:27 <PoppaVic> pforth is.. interesting
15:19:38 <ASau> Except when it isn't.
15:19:49 <PoppaVic> well, the author is happy
15:20:06 <ASau> The author doesn't seem to use it.
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15:22:31 <PoppaVic> the author supposedly uses it for assorted jobs/products <shrug> There's another forth similarly used.. Forgot the name.
15:23:15 <ASau> I haven't heard from him of any.
15:24:43 <PoppaVic> I was gonna' pester i4* tonight.. Now I've got a second machine running, I could ppc test for him on osX ;-)
15:24:56 <ASau> What is "i4"?
15:25:14 <PoppaVic> check the access list i400r and his isforth, iirc
15:25:18 <ASau> Ah.
15:25:49 <ASau> I'm not interested in completely non-portable software.
15:26:09 <ASau> Nor in "portable" in Forth farts' understanding.
15:26:23 <PoppaVic> huh?
15:26:49 <ASau> This is equivalent to "pigs can fly" kind of assertions.
15:27:14 <PoppaVic> umm.. Fine.
15:27:21 * PoppaVic boggles
15:32:18 <Deformative> PoppaVic in #Forth!?!
15:32:24 <Deformative> Isn't he the ##C guy?
15:33:27 <ASau> Is it useful to read ##c at all?
15:36:17 <PoppaVic> not really
15:36:26 <PoppaVic> Deformative:  I am That C Guy ;-)
15:36:53 <PoppaVic> otoh, I was That Forth Guy before C ;-)
15:37:55 <Deformative> Interesting.
15:39:01 <PoppaVic> ..so is trying to implement a bytecode/pcode engine in C that works like forth ;-)
15:39:45 <ASau> Good luck repeating pForth and FICL. :)
15:40:02 <PoppaVic> yeah
15:40:22 <PoppaVic> I started out ticked at pforth.
15:41:53 <ASau>  time   seconds   seconds    calls   s/call   s/call  name    
15:41:53 <ASau>   9.96     11.04     1.81 101695345     0.00     0.00  memcpy (upstream version)
15:41:53 <ASau>   8.32     10.92     1.42 102512777     0.00     0.00  memcpy (my version)
15:41:58 <ASau> My version copies less :p
15:42:30 <PoppaVic> overjoyed
15:44:00 <ASau> Most time is taken by inner interpreter.
15:45:57 <ASau> and it's hard to tell if it's good or bad.
15:46:19 <ASau> Because it performs all stack shuffling, arithmetics, and so on.
15:46:34 <PoppaVic> so?
15:48:26 <ASau> I think it just sucks.
15:48:51 <PoppaVic> that's nice
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23:59:29 <appamatto> Woot, there was GPL talk earlier
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