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08:30:56 <appamatto> crc, how are you liking fossil?
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09:08:24 <ams> appamatto: licking software is bad for you
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09:31:45 <appamatto> ams, really?
09:32:00 <ams> appamatto: really... mine tastes ink at times
09:34:24 <appamatto> I think fossil is the only bsd-licensed distributed scm
09:34:36 <ASau> You're wrong.
09:34:51 <appamatto> Hmm, I just checked git, bazaar, mercurial, and darcs
09:35:05 <ASau> You should check OpenRCS and OpenCVS.
09:35:17 <appamatto> never heard of them, checking now
09:35:39 <ASau> Nobody expects security inquisition.
09:35:57 <ASau> Their chief weapons are fear and surprise,
09:36:26 <appamatto> I don't think opencvs is distributed
09:36:27 <ASau> and almost fanatical devotion to The0 de Raadt.
09:37:24 <ASau> There was something to make CVS distributed.
09:37:53 <appamatto> I didn't start developing until after the CVS era
09:38:30 <ASau> It hasn't ended yet.
09:38:36 <appamatto> I think everyone had already switched to svn and the only time I used cvs was in tracking FreeBSD current
09:38:45 <ASau> You're wrong.
09:38:47 <ams> ASau: i think they called it subversion *G*
09:38:48 <appamatto> Well, now it seems to be the git era
09:39:13 <ASau> Git doesn't scale well.
09:39:18 <ams> ASau: hm?
09:39:25 <ams> sure looks like it scales quite well
09:39:35 <ams> (subversion doesn't scale)
09:39:50 <appamatto> ams, I think the problem is that a git clone contains the entire repository history
09:40:03 <ams> appamatto: you can do a shallow copy
09:40:15 <ams> --depth=1 or something
09:40:33 <appamatto> but then you can't commit back, right?
09:40:40 <ams> no clue
09:40:48 <ams> you should be able to do a git-format-path or something
09:40:52 <ASau> No, the problem is that git doesn't handle long history with reasonable performance.
09:40:56 <ASau> CVS does.
09:41:07 <ams> ASau: git handles it quite nicley
09:41:28 <ams> ASau: if 20 years of history isn't good enough, then i don't know what is
09:41:47 <ams> gcc.git works very nicley, so does the binutils tree and emacs tree
09:41:55 <appamatto> I never used CVS, but I sure did hear a lot of bad things about it
09:41:57 <ams> those projects are just a bit older than you, whippersnapper
09:42:03 <ams> appamatto: it isn't that bad
09:42:08 <appamatto> (ams, not to mention the linux kernel)
09:42:28 <ams> appamatto: i wouldn't call it "long"
09:42:30 <ASau> What about linux kernel?
09:42:32 <ams> but yes, linux is another good example
09:42:43 <ASau> linux kernel has very small history.
09:43:02 <ams> ASau: wat has big history in your book?
09:43:50 <ams> appamatto: somethings aren't to good about cvs, but in general it works damn well
09:44:25 <ams> appamatto: the sad thing is that subversion handles things even worse
09:45:45 <ams> not that i like git... but oh well
09:45:55 <ams> gotta use what is used if you wanna hack upstream
09:46:22 <ams> rcs, cvs, git, bzr, hg, darcs, what else is in my mixed up back?
09:46:36 <appamatto> I know a lot of people who use git-svn
09:46:40 <ams> yeah
09:46:46 <ams> i just gave up
09:46:56 <ams> might as well learn three things: commit, diff, cleanup
09:46:57 <ams> :-)
09:47:38 <ASau> I don't know if that makes sense.
09:48:13 <ASau> It is much easier to work with subversion with its native interface.
09:48:48 <ams> easier than C-x v v in emacs for all the myriad of vcs out there? doubt it.
09:49:15 <appamatto> Do you guys use fossil?
09:49:22 <ams> no
09:49:41 <ASau> It is disputable that subversion is reasonable choice for new project though.
09:49:54 <ams> it was disputable from the start
09:50:05 <ASau> Yes, I use fossil for some experimental projects.
09:50:05 <ams> subversion is a pile of shit
09:50:07 <ams> always was
09:51:28 <ams> hell, all of the problems in cvs could be solved without a rewrite
09:52:01 <ams> in the rage of the  "cvs sucks"-era a few friends and i actually did that
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09:56:12 <appamatto> well, it seemed like freebsd was trying to get off of cvs
09:56:29 <ams> does anyone even use freebsd?
09:56:30 <appamatto> Are there any big projects still happily using it?
09:56:40 <ASau> What? CVS?
09:56:45 <appamatto> ams, umm, like some large percentage of internet servers
09:56:48 <ams> appamatto: the gnu project uses for quite a lot of stuff
09:57:09 <ams> appamatto: the whole src tree is cvs (binutils, gdb, gold, bfd, ...)
09:57:36 <ams> appamatto: weird, seeing that i have admined parts of the interwebs, wouldn't let a freebsd near anything.
09:57:42 <appamatto> And apple uses the freebsd userland
09:57:43 <ams> openbsd maybe...
09:58:03 <ASau> This is wrong.
09:58:32 <ASau> OSX userland isn't FreeBSD.
09:58:45 <appamatto> I think there is quite a bit of freebsd code there
09:58:46 * ams wouldn't know.
09:58:49 <appamatto> check out the man pages
09:58:59 <ams> appamatto: well, by that definition, netbsd is also freebsd userland :-)
09:59:02 <ams> ditto for openbsd
09:59:23 <ASau> I've checked not only manual pages, but also tools behaviour.
09:59:26 <appamatto> hehe
09:59:44 <ASau> That comes from NetBSD in about half of cases.
10:01:03 <appamatto> I see
10:01:45 <ASau> I also doubt that those manual pages were that heavily modified in FreeBSD before they landed in OSX.
10:02:14 <ams> ASau: so what is a big project with long history?
10:02:40 <ASau> At least five years ago there were many remains of time before 4.4BSD.
10:03:15 <appamatto> Wow, I thought FreeBSD was a popular server but apparently it's < 5%
10:03:39 <ams> appamatto: telling you, it is definitly not popular
10:03:49 <ASau> It is hard to track it in FreeBSD repository, since they consistently removed repositories between releases.
10:04:23 <ASau> Remember Pareto rule?
10:06:41 <appamatto> Looks like Linux dominates everywhere outside of consumer devices
10:06:54 <ams> appamatto: GNU actually.
10:06:59 <ams> linux is just a kernel, GNU is the OS
10:07:16 <appamatto> GNU can run on Windows, too, though :p
10:07:19 <appamatto> as I am doing right now :p
10:07:20 <ASau> Just like VB dominated "everywhere" some time ago.
10:07:24 <ams> appamatto: actually, it cannot.
10:07:49 <ams> appamatto: since the kernel is non-free software, and you can't make it hook into the GNU system, like was done for Linux.
10:08:03 <appamatto> meh
10:08:03 <ams> would be nice though if windows was free software, maybe in a few years
10:08:20 <appamatto> I'm still using glibc, bash, and a ton of other gnu software
10:08:57 <ams> appamatto: sure, and that i s the GNU system.  GNU isn't a set of "software", it is and always has been an operating system, just like BSD
10:09:18 <ams> appamatto: if you took Linux and ported BSD to it, it would still be a BSD system.
10:09:51 <appamatto> I dunno, seems like a vague distinction to me
10:09:56 <appamatto> given that the kernel is so large
10:09:56 <ASau> You could use libc, ksh, and a ton of free (contrary to gpl) software as well.
10:10:12 <ams> the GPL is just as free as the 3-clause BSD license.
10:10:26 <ASau> Kernel isn't large.
10:10:55 <appamatto> It seems gigantic to me
10:11:03 <ams> it is quite tiny
10:11:05 <ASau> 10MB
10:11:13 <ASau> If you build everything in.
10:11:22 <ams> appamatto: what you are seeing is the device drivers, they take most place
10:11:48 <ams> appamatto: if you just look at the kernel proper, it is super tiny
10:12:08 <ams> scheduler, mm, some boot cruft...
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10:12:25 <appamatto> filesystems, network stack, ...
10:12:37 <ams> also tiny, if you pick on...
10:12:38 <ams> one
10:12:47 <ASau> 10MB is _everything included_.
10:12:53 <appamatto> How big is gcc?
10:12:54 <ASau> It isn't that large.
10:12:56 <ams> uhm, no it isn't.
10:13:07 <ams> it is atleast ten fold that if you include everything
10:13:12 <ams> appamatto: which part?
10:13:19 <ams> appamatto: c? c++? ada? test suite?
10:13:23 <ams> appamatto: backend? frontend?
10:13:23 <ams> :-)
10:13:28 <appamatto> just c/c++, no tests
10:13:38 <ams> appamatto: 10+ MiB
10:13:44 <appamatto> because I consider gcc gigantic
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10:13:57 <appamatto> and if the linux kernel is anywhere near that, then it is also gigantic 
10:14:08 <ams> appamatto: gcc is big, but not gigantic
10:14:11 <appamatto> compare okl4 or similar
10:14:51 <ams> $ du -shc *.c *.h|tail -n1
10:14:51 <ams> 25Mtotal
10:14:58 <appamatto> Anyway, machines running the linux kernel are dominating in every sector other than desktop devices
10:15:12 <appamatto> looks like they will take over mobile as well, judging from these stas
10:15:15 <appamatto> stats*
10:15:32 <ASau> It depends on what you count as mobile.
10:15:43 <appamatto> cell phones?
10:15:50 <ASau> Unlikely.
10:15:56 <ams> android?
10:16:18 <ams> hell, embedded systems are getting swamped with linux
10:16:33 <ams> even telecomm stuff
10:16:51 <appamatto> according to wiki 27% of smartphones are linux
10:16:53 <ASau> I haven't heard Apple plans on moving to hostile software.
10:17:06 <appamatto> (which is not GNU :p )
10:17:08 <ASau> Wiki isn't reliable source of information.
10:17:10 <ams> ASau: they are already rnning hostile software, no point in them moving
10:21:05 <appamatto> ASau, android has a big share, and it's linux
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10:22:03 <ams> appamatto: ASau lives in his 4-bit world :-)
10:22:05 <ASau> It is still one step behind apples.
10:22:17 <appamatto> ASau, it's ahead of Apple in sales
10:22:38 <appamatto> possibly behind in market share, due to starting later
10:23:30 <ASau> It's technologically behind.
10:23:37 <ams> never stopped anyone
10:23:43 <ams> (i.e. *bsd)
10:23:58 <appamatto> Well, desktop linux is probably technologically behind as well
10:24:09 <ams> desktop GNU
10:24:17 <appamatto> that too
10:24:18 <ASau> It is possible that Google catches up with its big bucks behind.
10:24:23 <ams> linux has no relation to the desktop
10:24:32 <appamatto> I run linux on my desktop
10:24:33 <ams> it is all GNOME, a ... part of the GNU system and project :-)
10:24:50 <ASau> I don't, so what?
10:24:59 <appamatto> ASau, what do you run?
10:25:12 <ASau> NetBSD.
10:25:26 <ASau> I try not to run non-free software where possible.
10:25:37 <ams> netbsd includes non-free software in its kernel afaik
10:26:01 <appamatto> Wow, is NetBSD usable?  Why not OpenBSD or FreeBSD?
10:26:17 <ASau> Why OpenBSD or FreeBSD?
10:26:32 <ASau> What does it bring to me?
10:26:33 <appamatto> larger user base
10:26:40 <appamatto> more development, ...
10:26:58 <ASau> And lack of SMP and journalling FS respectively.
10:26:59 <ASau> How nice.
10:27:12 <ams> appamatto: he has a point ;-)
10:27:28 <appamatto> FreeBSD has no journaling FS?
10:27:32 <ASau> Has it?
10:27:41 <appamatto> Umm, FreeBSD has ZFS for one
10:27:52 <ams> ASau: i thought that netbsd didn't have decet smp support? or was it openbsd?
10:27:52 <ASau> How stable is ZFS on FreeBSD?
10:27:53 <appamatto> what journaling FS are you using on NetBSD?
10:27:59 <ASau> FFS.
10:28:39 <ams> ASau: and yet again: what big old project can you give as an example of where git goes bonkers?
10:28:48 <appamatto> looks like freebsd has ffs
10:29:01 <ASau> Does it have journalling?
10:29:51 <appamatto> I don't know, but UFS on freebsd apparently supports journaling
10:30:03 <ASau> I haven't heard of that.
10:30:14 <appamatto> It's hard to imagine an OS not supporting journaling
10:30:14 <ASau> Last time I checked it didn't.
10:30:46 <ASau> Neither FreeBSD nor OpenBSD do it.
10:31:03 <ASau> At least they didn't two years ago, and I haven't heard it changed since then.
10:31:55 <ASau> Another problem with FreeBSD on desktop is obsolete software.
10:32:06 <appamatto> In ports, you mean?
10:32:31 <ASau> Even 3 years ago it was much easier to install pkgsrc on FreeBSD,
10:32:45 <ASau> since it had more up-to-date desktop software.
10:32:51 <appamatto> Hmm, okay, so then why NetBSD instead of Linux?
10:33:09 <ams> GNU.
10:33:14 <ASau> Linux is non-free software.
10:33:30 <ams> ASau: no it isn't
10:33:47 <ams> appamatto: you can run GNU with a BSD kernel.
10:33:54 <ASau> But that's of lesser importance.
10:34:08 <appamatto> woot
10:34:15 <ams> ASau: of no importance, since Linux is free software, like ajor parts of *BSD
10:34:15 <appamatto> I second that opinion, ASau :p
10:34:34 <appamatto> ASau, what about technical reasons?
10:34:54 <ASau> Technically, NetBSD is superior.
10:34:58 <ams> bahaha
10:35:17 <ams> that has to be the funniest joke ever
10:35:34 <ASau> You can check the source, and see that it didn't invent,
10:35:43 <ASau> e.g. USB drivers each year.
10:35:53 <ASau> USB stack.
10:36:04 <ams> ASau: and the same scheduler that still sucks ass as 20 years ago
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10:37:43 <appamatto> ASau, superior to Linux as well?
10:38:18 <ams> does netbsd even support the usb3 standard?
10:39:17 <ams> (kinda a lame way to define supperiority by saying complete lies, linux hasn't rewrote the usb drivers each year, or the stack for that matter)
10:39:32 <ASau> Just one question: how many packet filters, usb stacks, audio subsystems, or file systems changed in linux in past years?
10:40:16 <ams> ASau: if your definition of superiour is "old as shite", then netbsd is crap, since we should be using system one.
10:40:27 <ASau> If this is good, why couldn't they sit down and decide in advance?
10:40:47 <ams> ASau: cause the future cannot be decided in advanced
10:41:00 <ams> netbsd sucks, couldn't even figure out that they had to write a journaling file system 20 years ago
10:41:11 <ASau> Are linux programmers that good that they can't plan their steps in advance?
10:41:20 <ams> ASau: they did.
10:41:35 <appamatto> ASau, are you a NetBSD committer?
10:41:38 <ams> usb is a fucked up standard, ext2 hasn't changed in ages
10:41:51 <ams> the audio subsystem has changed twice
10:42:00 <ams> (since 1990!)
10:42:29 <ams> netbsd only copied the packet filter from openbsd, so giving netbsd credit their is silly
10:42:39 <ASau> Does it matter if I'm committer or not?
10:42:52 <ASau> What does it change?
10:43:13 <appamatto> ASau, just curious
10:43:34 <appamatto> I wasn't trying to attack NetBSD, just wanted to see what a user has to say
10:43:52 <appamatto> I haven't really settled down on an OS for myself, I use Windows, OS X and Linux variously
10:44:00 <ams> GNU is the OS.
10:44:02 <appamatto> Although I would prefer to use a BSD-licensed OS
10:44:03 <ams> not Linux.
10:44:10 <ams> shorter to type as well...
10:44:19 <appamatto> ams, I use GNU on all three of those OSes
10:44:21 <ASau> Try it and see.
10:44:38 <ASau> Everyone has different needs.
10:44:44 <ams> appamatto: There is GNU the OS and then there is porting parrts of GNU to other OSs
10:44:46 <ASau> Perhaps iOS is what you really want.
10:44:50 <ams> appamatto: just like GNU uses parts of BSD
10:44:57 <appamatto> I like Arch Linux because of the package management, which seems much more up to date than Ubuntu
10:45:11 <appamatto> you mentioned that NetBSD has more up to date packages than FreeBSD?
10:45:48 <ASau> Generally, it is so.
10:46:00 <ams> ASau: so what project is big and with lots of history? (and bigger than linux)
10:46:02 <appamatto> I'll give it a try
10:46:14 <ASau> There may happen various strange things nevertheless.
10:46:18 <ASau> Like everywhere.
10:46:38 <ASau> At least, it has quarterly pkgsrc snapshots unlike debi*an.
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14:34:25 <crc> appamatto: I love fossil. I prefer it to the others I've used over the last couple of years.
14:34:57 <ASau`> crc: how do you handle vendor branches?
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14:38:39 <crc> I don't have vendor branches.
14:39:24 <ASau> Just like I thought.
14:39:31 <ASau> "You ain't gonna need it."
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14:43:25 <crc> I've not needed them for my projects, and so don't miss them
15:14:39 <ams> ASau: so what project is big and with lots of history? (and bigger than linux)
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20:58:33 <appamatto> crc, cool, I'll have to try it
20:59:06 <appamatto> apparently it's the same author as sqlite
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