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01:58:48 <ams> me liking it
01:58:54 <ams> :)
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15:26:51 <elderK> Hey guys,
15:27:10 <elderK> I was just wondering if there are any negative opinions related to using local variables in ANS Forth?
15:34:26 <schmrkc> elderK: always someone with a negative opinion.
15:36:32 <elderK> good point, schmrkc.
15:36:38 <elderK> For the hell of it, I'm writing a binary search tree in Forth.
15:36:44 <schmrkc> Fun :)
15:36:46 <elderK> And, doing it purely on the stack - well, it gets pretty messy.
15:36:55 <elderK> I have many dups for addresses, like, when I allocate a node, for example
15:37:14 <elderK> I haven't yet found a way to simply say "node address + x", unless I dup the address and add 'x' to it.
15:37:20 <elderK> :P then store something there.
15:37:32 <elderK> but for the next part of the structure, I need to add to the address again, for example.
15:37:36 <schmrkc> yeah.
15:37:46 <elderK> I thought a local variable may be better say, than keeping the "original" address on teh return stack, temporarily.
15:37:52 <schmrkc> I see no problem with variables of any sort tbh.
15:38:44 <elderK> So far, what I do, is rotate the parameters in a way that I can store easily later - then create an staggered bunch of addresses (for the things I will set in sequence), then push all of those onto the return stack, so I can use them as I store.
15:38:47 <elderK> If that makes any senes.e
15:38:49 <elderK> :)
15:38:59 <elderK> I'm new to Forth, but so far, like Lisp, I like how it bends my mind to use :)
15:39:21 <elderK> and I also like that it forces you to be stacky - unlike pure assembly, where you can do indexed accesses.
15:39:44 <elderK> now that i think of it, I could probably write a word to let me do indexed access :P
15:39:47 * elderK facepalm
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15:44:29 <schmrkc> forth doesn't force you to be stacky
15:44:36 <schmrkc> right yea
15:46:25 <elderK> :) That worked pretty well.
15:46:31 <elderK> But hey schmrkc, any tips? :)
15:46:48 <elderK> I'm pretty damned verbose... indexed-address-store
15:46:49 <elderK> lol :)
15:47:05 <elderK> show the state of the stack always, too, pretty much for every line of code.
15:47:29 <schmrkc> I have way too much sleep deprevation to keep up with what you are doing here.
15:47:45 <elderK> Sucks, I feel your pain.
15:47:51 <schmrkc> I need to scroll back to remember. it was something about trees
15:47:52 <elderK> :( I don't sleep so well, too.
15:47:56 <schmrkc> oh btree
15:48:16 <schmrkc> I guess it depends on how you store your tree.
15:48:50 <schmrkc> personally I'd store it as conses with null pointers or pointers to other conses.
15:49:04 <schmrkc> and iterate the heck out of that.
15:49:06 <elderK> aye, that's pretty much what I'm doing.
15:49:23 <elderK> node = { left, right, key }
15:49:40 <schmrkc> right.
15:49:44 <schmrkc> like a cell each or something.
15:49:47 <elderK> root = { some-node-that's-root }
15:49:49 <elderK> yeah, exactly.
15:49:50 <schmrkc> I guess not conses because of three values :)
15:50:13 <elderK> :) I wonder if anyone ever made any games with Forth.
15:50:22 <schmrkc> I made a roguelike somewhere.
15:50:23 <elderK> It'd be a fun project, just to be able to say "Yeah, I did!"
15:50:42 <elderK> :P Imagine like a side-scroller, made in Forth - I think that'd be pretty neat.
15:50:43 <schmrkc> actually the biggest project there was creating the object system I used for items and monsters
15:50:46 <elderK> You could have scripting built in, too.
15:50:50 <schmrkc> yup
15:51:00 <schmrkc> there are sdl and opengl bindings so that should be no biggie
15:51:10 <elderK> Shame that SDL is going commercial.
15:51:15 <schmrkc> atleast for gforth
15:51:16 <elderK> afaik, 1.2.x is staying open.
15:51:17 <schmrkc> oh it is?
15:51:19 <elderK> Yeah :/
15:51:24 <schmrkc> interesting.
15:51:33 <elderK> http://www.galaxygameworks.com/
15:51:46 <schmrkc> so I will have to pay to use it, eh?
15:51:55 <elderK> Naw - only if you link statically.
15:52:00 <schmrkc> oh right.
15:52:03 <schmrkc> so then it doesn't matter.
15:52:08 <elderK> Yeah.
15:52:10 <schmrkc> you had me worried there!
15:52:21 <elderK> :P
15:52:27 <elderK> Doesn't worry so much - I wrote my own replacement for it some time back.
15:52:39 <elderK> At least for use on Win/Mac/BSD and Linux
15:53:00 <elderK> Mostly because how it run on OSX was kind of ugly.
15:53:06 <schmrkc> ah cools.
15:53:29 <elderK> :) I wanted something a lot smaller and something I knew first-hand, to interface with Scheme, for a little game I made at the time.
15:53:36 <schmrkc> now the thing with forth is developing in it is mildly annoying half the time. especially for games.
15:53:44 <schmrkc> I think factor would be a nicer pick there.
15:53:49 <elderK> Oh, whyfore?
15:53:57 <schmrkc> it's like developing in C. it's such a pain. just even more painful.
15:54:09 <elderK> (I like developing in C :P)
15:54:11 <schmrkc> you have to keep track of things you know.
15:54:19 <schmrkc> sure me too. It's nice.
15:54:26 <schmrkc> but it's pretty shit really.
15:54:28 <elderK> You'd need structures, at least.
15:54:34 <elderK> Well, it certainly doesn't hold your hand.
15:54:39 <schmrkc> well you can make structures no problem.
15:55:00 <elderK> As for forth, it seems like a cross-platform assembler - with a little bit higher abstraction, ie: semi-automatic-mm.
15:55:18 <schmrkc> right.
15:55:25 <elderK> Although, afaik, how Forth manages memory is a little concerning - there doesn't seem to be a standardized way to access a system heap.
15:55:52 <schmrkc> right. different implementations do things in different ways.
15:56:15 <elderK> Also, hey, when you allot some data - is there anyway you can free it?
15:56:43 <elderK> Or is it generally assumed if you want some general block allocation mechanism - you write your own and manage the "data space" yourself - or you just use the implementation's heap stuff?
15:56:44 <schmrkc> well you could just reuse it atleast.
15:56:47 <schmrkc> or malloc instead.
15:57:27 <schmrkc> allot is more like db in the asm parlance.
15:57:43 <schmrkc> like you reserve some memory space right there.
15:57:47 <elderK> yeah.
15:58:09 <elderK> You couldn't consider it just taking space, basically in the data-stack-space
15:58:10 <schmrkc> for gforth there's 'allocate' and 'free'
15:58:14 <elderK> just, stack goes down, here space goes up.
15:58:49 <schmrkc> and that's pretty much just malloc() and free()
15:59:09 <elderK> so, x allocate
15:59:22 <elderK> is just like pushl $size    call malloc
15:59:56 <schmrkc> hit your gforth up with some "see allocate" and it will tell you exactly what it is :)
16:00:05 <elderK> :) thanks
16:00:07 <schmrkc> but ya   allocate ( u -- addr wior )
16:00:16 <elderK> wior? write or read?
16:00:23 <elderK> woahh cool
16:00:25 <schmrkc> it will decode the assembly for you if your have gdb installed I think.
16:00:44 <schmrkc> I guess it did :)
16:00:52 <elderK> Aye,
16:01:03 <elderK> although, I'm unfamiliar with how gforth passes it's parameters through to C.
16:01:08 <elderK> er, to the system.
16:01:31 <schmrkc> I'd think it uses standard C calling conventions for whatever platform you're on.
16:02:06 <elderK> :) Will have to lookup the ABI for AMD64.
16:02:36 <schmrkc> Now what is a bugger there with gforth and allocating memory and reading and writing is that you get the odd bugs.
16:02:47 <schmrkc> like where you forgot what you had on the stack and just write shit at the wrong address
16:02:54 <schmrkc> like over your dictionary or other program code
16:03:03 <schmrkc> forth, like C, gives you a lot of rope :)
16:03:11 <elderK> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/LowLevelABI/140-x86-64_Function_Calling_Conventions/x86_64.html
16:03:12 <elderK> :) Here we go.
16:03:35 <elderK> Well, at least on today's machines - if we screw up, we simply crash :P
16:03:40 <elderK> at least the system won't die.
16:03:46 <elderK> unlike ye ole DOS days.
16:03:47 <elderK> Oy.
16:04:24 <schmrkc> there are, of course, also a set of CPUs that are built for forth.
16:04:24 <elderK> incase you want it in the future for reference, http://www.x86-64.org/documentation/abi-0.99.pdf
16:04:49 <elderK> :) I've read a little about Moore's forth cpus :)
16:06:14 <schmrkc> and of course if you don't like the reverse notation and stack using.. you can always change the syntax and not use the stack ;)
16:06:59 <elderK> :P ie, implement a DSL for your use?
16:07:12 <elderK> I was thinkingit'd be nice to be able to write hex literals if I wanted, without having to hex dec out.
16:07:16 <elderK> like, #x
16:07:46 <elderK> : #x hex ' dec ;
16:07:47 <elderK> I guess.
16:08:31 <schmrkc> (:
16:09:49 <elderK> :P so much for that
16:24:18 <crc> elderK: which forth system for the hex literals?
16:24:35 <elderK> oh, gforth I guess.
16:24:40 <elderK> I was just wondering how you'd achieve it in ANS.
16:24:45 <elderK> Little things are fun.
16:24:46 <elderK> :)
16:25:28 <crc> gforth has a $ prefix for hex literals
16:27:39 <elderK> neat.
16:27:44 <elderK> but I still want to learn how to implement that myself :)
16:28:28 <crc> : later r> r> swap >r >r ;
16:28:29 <crc> : #x hex later decimal ;
16:29:08 <crc> though that may not work quite as expected; I'm not real familar with the gforth interpreter
16:33:44 <elderK> not quite sure how that works.
16:33:54 <elderK> later moves two values from teh return stack to the data stack,
16:34:00 <elderK> swaps them, places them back into the return stack, returns
16:35:17 <elderK> wait, I think I get it.
16:35:19 <crc> : foo 2 . later 4 . ;
16:35:19 <crc> : bar 1 . foo 3 . ;
16:35:19 <crc> bar
16:36:50 <crc> bar displays 1, calls foo, which displays 2 and then calls later which modifies the address stack to return control to bar. bar finishes, returning to foo, which then executes the code following later
16:38:17 <elderK> :) I thought you were doing something sneaky like that, there.
16:38:22 <elderK> it's almost like continuatoin passing style, kinda.
16:38:52 <elderK> Also, guys, are there any neat forth blogs around? I'd be interested to read some forther's journey.
16:39:51 <crc> hmm, mine at http://rx-core.org/dev/corpse and Sam Falvo's (kc5tja, online in ##forth and #c4th-ot once in a long while) at http://www.falvotech.com/blog2/blog.fs/
16:40:29 <elderK> cheers :)
16:40:30 <crc> chuck moore has a blog at http://www.colorforth.com/blog.htm
16:41:24 <crc> john drake at http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/
16:41:35 <crc> (his isn't updated since march IIRC)
16:43:04 <crc> that's every one I know of
16:45:28 <elderK> Thanks dude.
16:46:05 <crc> my blog and sam's are written in forth, with portions of the code discussed on the blogs
16:47:05 <elderK> Waoh, that's pretty extreme - and cool.
16:47:14 <elderK> :) Right now, I'm reading about LOCALS| in dpANS94.
16:47:30 <elderK> :) Also, so I can learn how to make structures and things with forth alone.
16:47:34 <elderK> rather than using GForth's syntax.
16:47:57 <elderK> Any chance you could bestow some advice, crc?
16:48:12 <crc> I've never used locals :)
16:49:15 <elderK> So far, I can see why.
16:49:22 <elderK> the standards explanation of them is quite bad...
16:52:15 <elderK> crc, out of curiosity, what kind of things do you build with Forth, other than blogs? :)
16:52:17 <crc> LOCALS| a b c |
16:52:49 <crc> 1 2 3  ... word with this LOCALS ... 
16:52:49 <crc> a = 3, b = 2, c = 1
16:53:10 <crc> elderK: small games for my kids, and small tools for my own use mostly
16:53:42 <crc> I've done a couple of small webapps for prototype purposes for work, and done a bit of dabbling with sql and forth for database
16:54:48 <elderK> What kind of games?
16:55:00 <crc> : foo LOCALS| a b | a b + b * ;
16:55:00 <crc> 2 1 foo .
16:55:00 <crc> 6
16:56:42 <crc> I have a hangman (console) and tic-tac-toe (web), a simple chess game (console), and a couple of mazes (console)
17:08:13 <elderK> :)
17:09:37 <crc> none of my code will run on gforth; it's all written for a highly non-standard system :)
17:11:50 <schmrkc> elderK: oh. That's another thing with forth. there is a minimal standard. often highly ignored. You can't expect the same code to ever run on two different forths ;)
17:16:17 <crc> very true
17:18:24 <elderK> nuts.
17:18:25 <elderK> :P
17:22:54 * elderK slowly starts to decipher the standard's implementation of local|
17:22:55 <elderK> :)
17:23:16 <elderK> My adherence to the standard, at least for now, serves only to help expedite my understanding of forth.
17:23:29 <elderK> :P I hope to at least have the skill to make Pacman or something soon.
17:23:39 <elderK> It'd be neat if I could create some cool ADTs or something in Forth, like, an AVL tree for example.
17:25:28 <elderK> Ahhhh, I get it now, I think.
17:25:34 <elderK> Hm.
17:28:34 <schmrkc> "forth - and you thought scheme was bad?"
17:28:48 <elderK> :P
17:28:49 <elderK> Scheme rules.
17:28:49 <elderK> :P
17:28:57 <schmrkc> ya sure
17:29:01 <schmrkc> I agree.
17:29:17 <schmrkc> I'm puzzled why schemers in general got so upset about the new standard though.
17:44:33 <elderK> r6rs?
17:44:51 <elderK> mostly because they mandated a bunch of stuff, that while needed in many ways, was not the schemey-way to have gone about bringing them into the core.
17:45:00 <schmrkc> pfft
17:45:09 <schmrkc> grumpy schemers don't know what is best for 'em
17:45:20 <elderK> and also, that scheme has always been a minimalist language - part of it's mantra was simply that only the core, was ever standardized - only what was needed to allow the creation of new primitives.
17:45:21 <elderK> and aye.
17:45:29 <elderK> I can kidn of see it from both viewpoints.
17:45:42 <elderK> But r7rs is already in development, so, it'll be interesting to watch.
17:45:48 <elderK> about Forth control flow, btw.
17:45:54 <elderK> begin ... while .... repeat ...
17:46:15 <elderK> if the datastack doesn't have all zeroes on it, when while is executed, it goes back to the start - to what follows begin, right?
17:47:04 <elderK> begin pushes "dest" onto the control stack, while pops that value onto the data stack, pushes "orig" onto data stack, swap, push them both onto the control stack so we have (c: orig dest)
17:47:14 <elderK> repeat "resolves" those references.
17:47:37 <elderK> so, that "orig" points to that which follows the while, dest points to what follows the begin?
17:48:31 <elderK> yup, seems so.
17:49:05 <elderK> that means when the while branch is executed - ie, the test flag was zero, the stuff between while ... repeat is executed, continuing with what was after repeat.
17:49:14 * elderK ponders
17:49:56 <elderK> hmmm and while consumes the flag, okay.
17:50:07 * elderK continues executing the local| definition in the standard, with a notepad.
18:11:52 <elderK> hmmmm
18:13:28 * crc finished rewriting the string parser; now to look for another piece of code to cleanup
18:20:02 * elderK throws confetti
18:20:07 <elderK> good job, crc :)
18:20:16 <elderK> So far, I seem to understand what their definition of local| does,
18:20:21 <elderK> except the (local) command.
18:20:32 <elderK> that seems to be left entirely open to the implemention.
18:20:51 <elderK> but, from what I can tell, local| does nothing but collect the words represented by ... in local| .... |
18:21:02 <elderK> as counted strings.
18:21:41 <crc> the low-level implementation of locals is implementation dependant. As are many things in the standard.
18:22:03 <elderK> 0 0 (local) seems like saying "no string, no length" as a local, maybe some kind of padding.
18:22:27 <elderK> so, I guess (local) called with ( (c-addr u)* )
18:22:46 <elderK> on the stack, means "this is the stirng for the local, the values are provided before the local| call, do whatever works to make them available"
18:23:41 <elderK> :) Sorry if I'm spamming the room, I don't really mean to - I just find these things interesting.
18:24:52 <crc> feel free to post your thoughts - this channel is far to quiet these days
18:27:40 <elderK> yay, I'm glad to find a place that welcomes the ramblers.
18:27:40 <elderK> :P
18:28:05 <elderK> too many people these days seem either content to use only one language, or to use only those similar to them.
18:28:47 <elderK> One reason I've gone out and played with languages such as Common Lisp, Scheme and APL, Forth now too, is simply to expand my toolset - that toolset not being the languages I use, but how I approach problems :)
18:28:52 <elderK> I don't see how it's a bad thing at all.
18:28:57 <crc> I mostly use Retro and C; though I do occasionally use gforth, go, python, php, and c#
18:29:22 <elderK> Besides, if I get good at Forth, who knows, maybe us small group of Forthers will be called upon to like, fix some broken satellite that the original athors cant, becuase, like they're dead or something :P
18:29:25 <elderK> ie, Space Cowboys.
18:29:34 <elderK> Fix a giant cold-war USSR nuclear silo in space :P
18:30:02 <elderK> I've not yet played with Go - but I expect something neat, since it's pushed pretty hard by Pike.
18:30:12 <elderK> I tend to work mostly in C and Assembler.
18:30:38 <elderK> x86-32 and a bunch of embedded chips (coldfire/68k, avr)
18:30:58 <elderK> Haven't quite jumped on the 64bit bandwagon yet, at least not as far as machine-language is concerned.
18:31:03 <crc> I stopped all use of x86 assembly in 2008 when I scrapped my old code and started over
18:31:16 * elderK nods
18:31:36 <elderK> It's a little disheartening to work in Assembly nowadays, I find - there is so much craziness now, more to performance, than just tight code alone.
18:31:48 <elderK> like, understanding the caching characteristics precisely... how the pipelines are fed...
18:32:11 <elderK> and on a multitasking system, those kind of considerations kind of go out the window, anyway, since whatever cache-coolness you may have just worked the program into, is thrown out the window on a task switch.
18:32:16 <crc> I've never obsessed over performance
18:32:43 <elderK> lucky :)
18:32:48 <elderK> I'm trying to get myself out of that, at least a little.
18:33:10 <elderK> Far too often, raw performance dominates my designs - to the point where it kind of kills the fun of it. :/
18:34:06 <crc> the last time I spent working on performance issues was a javascript implementation of a vm for retro; the original was too slow to be usable at all
18:42:44 <elderK> sweet, webforth?!
18:42:54 <elderK> I recently found retro - it said apparently, that it's not very forthish?
18:42:57 <elderK> at least, it complies to no standard.
18:43:24 <crc> it complies to no standards
18:43:25 <elderK> Javascript can be kidn of cool - in that it's basically Scheme without the cool macro system.
18:43:36 <elderK> and a bunch of extra crap included.
18:43:41 <elderK> so, a practical scheme without macros.
18:43:42 <elderK> :P
18:43:50 <crc> version 9.2 had an optional ANS compatibility layer
18:43:53 <schmrkc> elderK: being "not very forthish" is a horrible discussion to get into :)
18:44:02 <elderK> heh, aye, schmrkc.
18:44:23 <schmrkc> Where is that 404 guy these days anyway?
18:44:33 <crc> i440r?
18:44:37 <schmrkc> right. the ibanez
18:44:45 <schmrkc> I forgot what model it was.
18:44:54 <crc> he stops in occasionally under the mark4 nick now IIRC
18:44:59 <schmrkc> oh ok.
18:45:13 <schmrkc> I had some question for him. hrrrm.
18:45:18 <schmrkc> good to know he changed the nick though :)
18:45:29 <elderK> ;) what happened, schmrkc?
18:45:41 <schmrkc> elderK: happened with?
18:59:32 <elderK> 440?
18:59:45 * elderK is repairing the dpANS94.pdf document, it seems kind of broked :(
19:01:03 <schmrkc> elderK: I guess he got better things to do than be logged in to irc all the time.
19:24:53 <crc> elderK: what is wrong with the pdf?
20:01:50 <elderK> The bookmarks are busted.
20:01:53 <elderK> and missing segments.
20:01:57 <elderK> It's okay - I'll reindex it.
20:01:57 <elderK> :P
20:02:16 <elderK> I wonder if I could do a script that would, like, do it for me.
20:02:33 <elderK> like, dump each page to a text file - scan those text files for various things, make alog of the pages - then reindex via some command line pdf editor...
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23:33:27 <ams> mm..
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.10.23