00:00:00 --- log: started forth/10.10.21 00:01:20 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 00:19:32 --- join: ams` (ams@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE) joined #forth 00:33:12 My impression is that "does>" isn't much useful, 00:33:58 yet requires unproportionally significant quirks in implementation. 00:37:23 ASau: why do you think does> isn't useful? 00:38:29 ams`: because it isn't. 00:39:41 If you want to enter argumentation, check "burden of proof" first. 00:49:47 hm what does> it do? 00:54:05 --- quit: LionMadeOfLions (*.net *.split) 00:54:06 --- quit: ASau (*.net *.split) 00:54:06 --- quit: nighty^ (*.net *.split) 00:54:06 --- quit: ams (*.net *.split) 00:54:06 --- quit: alexand3r (*.net *.split) 00:56:21 --- join: ams (~ams@gnu/inetutils/ams) joined #forth 00:56:21 --- join: alexand3r (~alexander@polaris.andern.org) joined #forth 00:56:45 --- join: ASau (~user@77.246.230.250) joined #forth 00:56:45 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 00:57:08 ASau: yes, that is very good argument... 00:57:15 "does> sucks, cause it sucks" 00:57:19 immensly childish. 00:57:50 i was asking WHY YOU THINK it isn't useful. 00:58:00 but clearly, you've failed any english discourse class in kindergarden 01:00:03 If you want to enter argumentation, check "burden of proof" first. 01:00:44 If you think that following logic rules is childish, just go playing your bricks. 01:01:15 I have no time explaining you everything you missed in school. 01:01:22 --- join: LionMadeOfLions (~LionMadeO@70.114.155.182) joined #forth 01:01:38 right, cause they bring up does> in school. 01:01:46 clearly, you have no argumentation against does> 01:01:55 If you want to enter argumentation, check "burden of proof" first. 01:02:06 "does>" is useless because it is useless. 01:02:23 If you ignore "burden of proof" rule, go play your bricks. 01:03:38 yes, burden of proof is on me for asking why you think it is useless.. 01:03:44 right'o. 01:04:17 If you don't understand "burden of proof" rule, go play your bricks. 01:04:50 sure sure... 01:06:05 As I understand does> it is intended to provide an 'access word' for constants and variables (or arbitrary data structures) 01:06:43 I don't have much experience in Forth yet, I first heard about does> here: http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm#create 01:07:15 C-Keen: i suggest you ignore ASau, he probobly has no clue what does> does, and is confused how it can be useful. :-) 01:07:17 No. 01:08:03 C-Keen: you can safely ignore ams`, he is clueless idiot 01:08:04 who appeared on channel not long ago and thinks that he knows 01:08:04 everything better than others. 01:08:38 C-Keen: it is hard to find out what "does>" is intended for. 01:08:39 right. (seeing i've been here longer than ASau too) 01:09:17 ams`: I remember another "ams" on this channel from year 2002 or so, 01:09:39 ams`: so go play your bricks, it is easy to check, there're logs. 01:09:59 as to what does> should do, there is a clear intention for it 01:10:07 DOES> L0 01:10:07 A word which defines the run-time action within a high-level 01:10:07 defining word. 01:10:15 from fig-forth 01:10:34 that in it self can be useful for some tasks 01:10:53 Colon does the same, it defines run time action. 01:26:09 but you cannot do things like : CONSTANT CREATE , DOES> @ ; 01:26:30 C-Keen: why do you want to do those things? 01:27:02 ASau: to define a constant which places its value on TOS when named 01:27:17 it's pure convenience as I see it atm 01:27:22 : constant : literal postpone ; ; 01:27:39 : constant : postpone literal postpone ; ; 01:27:42 That's it. 01:27:59 and does> is tricky to implement? 01:28:39 Why is it _easy_ to implement? 01:28:51 Do you know any _easy_ way? 01:29:39 Because two most used ways are: 01:30:01 1. Waste space and make code mostly non-contigious. 01:30:15 2. Use one cute trick. 01:30:39 There's another now obsolete way: 01:30:55 does> isn't obsolete by any means. 01:30:57 3. Use distinct word to create such words (" "does>" is obsolete, it just isn't marked so in standard. 01:31:58 it isn't obsolete, period. 01:32:12 it is used by just about all forths, and there are no plans on making it obsolete. 01:32:15 it might be so in your brain 01:33:12 Ok, you may have a point by disliking does>. What's your conclusion? 01:33:13 Go look at Retro family Forths. 01:33:35 Surprise! (They don't have it.) 01:34:39 ASau: which aren't used by most people... 01:34:51 Forth isn't used by most people anyway. 01:34:58 C-Keen: Conclusion isf this: 01:35:05 kinda like claiming that cause colorforth doesn't have does>, it must folow that does> is bad. 01:35:32 I should just try remove it as a core construct and provide it as inefficient legacy feature. 01:38:38 remove it from where? 01:38:43 From FICL. 01:38:48 From pForth. 01:40:06 then do so? 01:40:45 saper: BTW, have you tried recent FICL? We've released. 01:41:00 C-Keen: is it a question? 01:42:15 ASau: It is an expression of astonishment. If you are right and this really gains something time will tell. 01:43:41 ASau: some big bugs are still there 01:44:30 saper: I'm almost sure that we'll talk about different big bugs. 01:44:49 saper: unless you call them by name. 01:44:59 but I didn't see a release yet, so I'll check again 01:45:10 I know about at least 3 of them. 01:45:13 registers are lost with longjmp() 01:45:22 happens only with amd64, I have a fix 01:45:46 but recently when I tried your commit I had some trouble getting simple loops to work 01:46:20 If you have test cases, it would be nice if I have them too. 01:46:24 I think I am subscribed to the mailing list, was that posted there? 01:46:35 Hm. 01:46:38 I'm not subscribed. 01:46:48 No, that wasn't posted. 01:46:51 Use CVS. 01:47:01 Or download the tarball. 01:47:11 should be posted, hmm 01:47:15 Preferrably the former. 01:48:52 saper: there's problem with posting, there're only two persons in project. 01:54:35 Makefile.linux gives even no warnings on FreeBSD amd64 01:55:38 There's no Makefile.linux already. :) 01:56:06 It didn't pass warning flags to compiler anyway. 01:56:16 ar tvzf /usr/ports/distfiles/ficl\-4.1.0.tar.gz ficl-4.1.0/Makefile.linux 01:56:16 -rw-r--r-- 0 asau wheel 1366 3 paź 11:39 ficl-4.1.0/Makefile.linux 01:56:33 Oh, someone updated ports? 01:56:38 I'm impressed. 01:57:40 doc/releases.html says nothing about 4.1.0 :( 01:58:08 Only amd64 support + some NetBSD and FreeBSD adaptations. 01:59:56 posted 02:00:38 Posted where? 02:00:49 Could you cc me in private? 02:20:14 --- quit: elderK (Quit: Leaving...) 02:20:57 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:21:17 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:23:44 --- join: elderK (~k@222-152-89-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 02:26:24 --- quit: elderK (Remote host closed the connection) 02:26:43 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 02:27:42 --- join: elderK (~k@222-152-89-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 02:37:27 Ah, you mean announcement. 02:50:08 --- join: bakaboo (~bakaboo@62.72.185.55) joined #forth 03:31:03 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:31:04 --- quit: ncv (Excess Flood) 03:31:33 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 04:07:52 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 04:17:12 --- quit: ncv (Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2010/07/07 01:16:10 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/) 04:24:48 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:32:24 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:46:52 ams`: I haven't missed does> since removing it 04:56:59 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@114.108.0.228) joined #forth 05:04:30 i haven't missed -dup either... 05:20:41 I never had -dup 05:22:08 crc: ?DUP in ans forth 05:22:11 i'm old :-) 05:23:41 I don't have a ?dup either 05:23:52 ah 05:23:59 : ?dup dup if dup then ; 05:28:16 It is useful mostly as a factor, real constructions look like ?dup-if. 05:41:22 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:48:35 --- quit: TreyB (Quit: Leaving.) 05:48:47 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@114.108.0.228) joined #forth 05:49:12 --- quit: TreyB (Client Quit) 06:17:22 --- join: TreyB (~Adium@114.108.0.228) joined #forth 06:34:10 meh, i'm disapointed with just about all forths thesedays 06:51:25 --- quit: elderK (Remote host closed the connection) 06:55:15 why? 07:00:04 to big, to complicated.. 07:01:39 Try Brainfuck. 07:01:46 It is small and straightforward. 07:02:21 it is 07:02:27 true, it is also unreadable. 07:02:34 Also, anyone claiming "does>" isn't obsolete shouldn't talk about too complicated Forth. 07:03:13 does> isn't that complicated, nor is it obsolete. 07:07:36 --- join: elderK (~k@222-152-89-64.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 07:07:38 I'm still to see your simple _and_correct_ approach to implementation of "does>". 07:08:32 camelforth does it nicly 07:11:47 CamelForth is written for what? 07:11:50 Z80? 07:12:21 ASau: 8051, 8086, msp430, and what not 07:12:44 there is also a port for GNU/Linux IA32. 07:14:14 First, I don't see i386 version. 07:14:16 ams@Psilocybe:~/forth$ uname -a 07:14:16 Linux Psilocybe 2.6.34 #2 SMP Thu Jun 17 05:16:13 CEST 2010 i686 GNU/Linux 07:14:16 ams@Psilocybe:~/forth$ ./camel86_32 07:14:16 80386 CamelForth v1.0 14 Dec 2010 07:14:16 ." hello world" 07:14:16 ." hello world" 07:14:17 ok 07:14:17 URL? 07:14:42 Also, I want to see it in any more portable form. 07:14:49 Does it have version at least for FreeBSD? 07:15:16 If not, it doesn't prove anything. 07:17:39 what should it prove? 07:17:42 it is portable enough 07:17:53 anyway, go look at the web page,i'm quite sure you are smart enough to find it 07:19:02 I look at camelforth.com download area, and there's no i386 version. 07:23:25 http://www.camelforth.com/download.php?view.23 07:23:57 It looks like the same shit with extra reserved cell. 07:24:01 This is _not_ elegant. 07:24:23 crc: 403 Access Forbidden 07:26:48 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:30:23 http://rx-core.org/camel.tar.gz 07:34:33 This is far from elegant. 07:42:53 I've never seen an elegant does> 07:43:11 neither have i, nor do i think anyone claimed that camel forth did it elegantly 07:45:10 It isn't correct either. 07:45:28 Allocation routines should allocate, 07:45:51 and you're pointing to a solution that uses broken "allot". 07:49:25 "-5 iallot" is even worse. 07:50:14 if you say so. 07:50:23 Mr. Useless. 07:51:30 What have _you_ done useful? 07:51:38 Have you answered any my question? 07:51:42 Correctly? 07:51:56 Even your camelforth attempt is fail. 07:52:08 my attempt? goodie... 07:52:18 you can't even read love 07:52:32 I'm still to see your simple _and_correct_ approach to implementation of "does>". 07:52:32 camelforth does it nicly 07:52:37 Here's the quote. 07:52:47 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-eecs-141-212-213-245.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 07:52:53 You can see that I underlined correctness requirement. 07:52:57 yes, where did i write that i wrote it? 07:53:07 You replied with implementation that is built around hacks. 07:53:19 if you say so. 07:53:33 So, what's the use of you mentioning camelforth here? 07:53:53 it does does> nicley. 07:54:10 It doesn't do it correct. 07:54:20 feel free to submit a patch to brad. 07:54:23 And cute hacks are still hacks. 07:54:33 if you say so. 07:54:39 What's the use of supporting obsolete system that I cannot use? 07:54:54 And that is made intentionally so that I cannot use it. 07:55:03 just becauase you cannot use it does not mean that it is obsolete. 07:55:27 Sorry, I don't see amd64 version. 07:55:36 feel free to port. 07:55:55 ficl doesn't run on MMIX, ergo it is obsolete cause i cannot use it. 07:56:38 Feel free to port it yourself. 07:56:38 It is intentionally written in assembler using those "-5 allot", 07:56:38 exactly to complicate porting task. 07:56:38 MMIX isn't even existing hardware. 07:56:45 sure it is. 07:57:01 and forth is so terribly complex to port. 07:57:04 Feel free to point me to a store nearby where I can buy laptop with MMIX CPU. 07:57:07 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:57:33 i can't find any stores selling amd64 here, ergo amd64 is obsolete. 07:57:38 this is almost fun 07:57:42 Even if MMIX exist in reality, it isn't useful. 07:57:50 sure it is. 07:57:57 What for? 07:57:58 but hey, only you know what is useful. 07:58:04 Yes, I know it. 07:58:20 And I can bring more people who know it. 07:58:26 Come on, 07:58:44 get on street and ask, if they find VAX useful. 07:58:45 sorry, only you know what is useful. 07:58:55 Not only I know that. 07:58:59 everyone else is wrong, it is pointless to bring in anyone else, since you are the all might useful person. 07:59:16 I can walk around this building and find enough people who can recall what VAX is. 07:59:33 ASau: nice, i was mucking about with a vax just yesterday. 07:59:34 And they'll tell exactly what I say: this isn't useful. 07:59:47 Obsolete hardware. 07:59:47 sure, you said so, only you know what is useful. 07:59:50 if you say so.. 08:00:22 Don't put words in my mouth, I can speak for myself. 08:00:44 This only attitude shows that you live in imaginary world, 08:00:45 yes, only you know what is usefull. 08:00:51 all hail all mighty ASau. 08:00:52 where MMIX is oh-so-modern architecture. 08:00:59 vax doesn't exist, neither does camel forth. 08:01:02 And VAX is oh-so-perspective hardware. 08:01:13 So what? 08:01:21 What follows from its existing? 08:01:32 only you know mighty one 08:01:53 There exist people who tasted shit. 08:01:53 Eat shit then. 08:02:00 There're people who find it useful. 08:02:10 or drink urine. 08:02:20 There're more examples than with shit. 08:02:33 crc: is ASau always this cranky? 08:03:43 "crc, help me"? 08:04:01 if you say so oh mighty all knowing god 08:14:40 --- part: C-Keen left #forth 08:16:57 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-eecs-141-212-213-245.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 08:17:53 --- join: Judofyr (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 08:22:13 * crc no longer worries about the underlying hardware 08:25:15 loved the bomb? ;) 08:25:39 * schmrkc will agree with VAX being useless. 08:26:26 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08:53:04 schmrkc: some banks and such would disagree :-) 09:04:36 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-238.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 09:26:04 --- join: benny99 (~benny@f055208249.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 10:02:01 ams: that's why we have emulators 10:02:32 crc: sometimes they might not work properly, and might simply not be cost effective 10:02:36 depends on many things 10:06:58 true; though I doubt keeping a vax running is cost effective 10:07:31 if it ain't broke, why fix it?:-) 10:08:20 if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet ;) 10:18:10 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 10:20:29 --- quit: elderK (Remote host closed the connection) 10:23:00 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:32:33 --- quit: benny99 (Quit: Leaving) 10:54:03 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-238.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 11:06:47 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 11:18:09 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@205-36.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 11:22:14 --- join: benny99 (~benny@f055208249.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 12:07:29 --- quit: nottwo_ (Quit: leaving) 12:07:38 --- join: nottwo (~trannie@nottwo.org) joined #forth 12:08:19 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:19:37 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-238.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 12:32:06 --- quit: benny99 (Quit: Leaving) 12:41:08 --- quit: ams (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 12:48:02 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:50:19 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 13:20:54 --- quit: segher (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 13:24:56 --- nick: ams` -> ams 13:46:12 --- quit: gnomon (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 13:46:30 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:38:52 --- join: segher (~segher@84-105-60-153.cable.quicknet.nl) joined #forth 15:03:52 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:55:48 --- quit: gnomon (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15:56:05 --- join: gnomon (~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 15:58:40 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 16:24:12 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@caen-cse-141-212-203-238.wireless.engin.umich.edu) joined #forth 16:30:49 --- quit: Deformative (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 17:00:01 --- quit: TreyB (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 17:24:44 --- quit: bakaboo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:30:13 --- join: Deformative (~Joseph@205-36.adsl.umnet.umich.edu) joined #forth 18:48:18 --- join: Snoopy_1711 (Snoopy_161@dslb-088-069-137-147.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 18:48:32 --- join: malyn_ (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 18:51:26 --- quit: malyn (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:51:29 --- nick: malyn_ -> malyn 18:51:55 --- quit: Snoopy_1611 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:09:04 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 23:14:10 --- join: bakaboo (~bakaboo@62.72.185.55) joined #forth 23:19:47 --- join: Judofyr_ (~judofyr@cC694BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) joined #forth 23:22:12 --- quit: Judofyr (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:27:12 --- quit: ygrek (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:40:59 --- join: ygrek (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ygrek) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.10.21