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21:39:09 <chitselb> greetings.  I'm implementing a Forth on a 6502 (PET 2001) and copying a lot of words from Blazin' Forth on C=64
21:40:02 <chitselb> I'm at the place where my outer interpreter sort of works, and number conversion is next.  Blazin' Forth has a word M/MOD which isn't part of the Forth-83 standard.  I'm trying to figure out the stack diagram for it.
21:41:03 <chitselb> 12345678. 1234 m/mod d. . 10004 742 ok
21:41:58 <chitselb> 12345678. dnegate 1234 m/mod d. . 3470519 1172  <-- clearly a wrong answer
21:43:14 <chitselb> UM/MOD works fine.  I'm just not sure what the rules are for M/MOD which seems to be a signed flavor of UM/MOD
21:45:11 <chitselb> I believe it should be UM/MOD  ( ud u -- +remainder +quotient ) and M/MOD  ( d n -- +remainder signedquotient )
21:53:23 <ASau```> Don't do that.
21:53:45 <ASau```> I remember helping someone with Blazin' Forth, it's obsolete.
21:54:02 <ASau```> m/mod comes from before 83-standard.
21:55:19 <chitselb> m/mod is invoked by "#" to build the output string
21:55:26 <ASau```> I know what it is.
21:55:41 <chitselb> when you say don't do that, what is "that"?
21:55:42 <ASau```> And I say, don't waste your time on Blazin' Forth.
21:55:59 <ASau```> It is obsolete system with roots before 1983.
21:56:12 <chitselb> I'm writing a forth for a pre-1980 commodore pet
21:56:20 <ASau```> That isn't excuse.
21:56:36 <ASau```> Why don't you write BASIC?
21:56:45 <ASau```> Isn't it as c00l?
21:56:53 <chitselb> http://github.com/chitselb/pettil
21:56:57 <chitselb> there's what I have so far
21:57:26 <chitselb> since I've already got about 10K lines of code, I don't want to scrap it and implement BASIC
21:58:14 <ASau```> Do you want to write Forth to throw it effectively away?
21:58:46 <chitselb> if by "throw it effectively away" you mean "run it on actual hardware" then the answer is yes
21:59:03 <ASau```> No, I mean what I write: throw it away.
22:00:11 <ASau```> Besides, I find it annoying to point to web frontend to VCS,
22:00:11 <ASau```> where do I find URL to checkout the source?
22:00:11 <chitselb> I want a Forth to run on my PET.  I have a 7-year old son who appreciates the aesthetic value of the case design and the simplicity of the 6502 instruction set
22:00:23 <chitselb> github.com / chitselb / pettil
22:00:46 <chitselb> not sure if my URLs are being filtered
22:00:52 <chitselb> it's on github
22:00:59 <chitselb> under chitselb/pettil
22:01:12 * ASau``` sighs.
22:01:12 <chitselb> project name: pettil
22:01:14 <ASau```> fatal: http://github.com/chitselb/pettil/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server?
22:01:28 <ASau```> Do you call it valid URL?
22:02:07 <chitselb> That's the right URL
22:02:28 <ASau```> Look,
22:02:30 <ASau```> $ git clone http://github.com/chitselb/pettil
22:02:30 <ASau```> Initialized empty Git repository in /tmp/pettil/.git/
22:02:31 <ASau```> fatal: http://github.com/chitselb/pettil/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server?
22:02:41 <ASau```> Obviously, it isn't right URL.
22:04:59 <ASau```> Yeah.
22:05:27 <ASau```> You're dumbfully copying long obsolete technique.
22:05:48 <ASau```> There's already more effective one.
22:06:07 <chitselb> git://github.com/chitselb/pettil.git
22:06:14 <ASau```> 	.byt (emit-*-1)|bit7
22:06:15 <ASau```> 	.asc "EMI","T"|bit7
22:06:46 <ASau```> This means that:
22:07:09 <ASau```> 1. Your system isn't 8-bit clean, and you're asking for surprises.
22:07:44 <ASau```> 2. Your dictionary search wastes time comparing names even when their lengths differ.
22:08:37 <chitselb> 1. It's a Commodore PET.  8-bit clean has to do with SMTP and NNTP.  Since I don't have a network stack on this box and never will, that's a non-issue
22:08:46 <ASau```> 3. You have to maintain separate word to print word name.
22:09:00 <chitselb> 2. my dictionary search is a lot more efficient than figForth
22:09:03 <ASau```> 8-bit clean has to do with any text processing.
22:09:31 <ASau```> It still isn't as effective if you choose to store counted strings.
22:09:34 <chitselb> It's a PET 2001.  It has the PETSCII character set.
22:09:45 <chitselb> all bets are off since upper and lowercase are swapped
22:10:01 <chitselb> do you read comp.lang.forth?
22:10:08 <ASau```> Yes, I read it.
22:10:31 <chitselb> there's a ridiculous thread there that I started about a month ago, "what are my options for dictionary hashing?"
22:11:10 <ASau```> Yes, there's such smart man as Hugh.
22:11:53 <chitselb> he recommends that I port 15 screens of his esteemed ANS Forth "symtab" package to 6502 primitive
22:12:23 <ASau```> You're strongly recommended to ignore him.
22:12:41 <chitselb> I've sort of figured that out, after I took the bait once or twice
22:12:55 <ASau```> Before you understand what the whole talk between him and John&Co.
22:13:09 <ASau```> ...is about.
22:13:49 <chitselb> I gather there's some history between them
22:14:14 <chitselb> I haven't done much in Forth since 1984-1985 or so
22:14:43 <ASau```> Then it will be tough for you.
22:14:48 <chitselb> not really
22:14:56 <ASau```> Yes, really.
22:15:03 <ASau```> The world has changed much since then.
22:15:15 <ASau```> I look at your code and it reminds me figForth.
22:15:22 <chitselb> I'm not implementing ANS Forth, I'm going Forth-83
22:15:32 <ASau```> And what's the point in that?
22:15:44 <chitselb> I don't want the bloat.  If Chuck Moore were dead, he'd be spinning in his grave about the ANS Forth standard
22:16:01 <chitselb> This machine has 32K of RAM.  That's maxed out.
22:16:02 <ASau```> ANS Forth supports less bloat than Forth-83.
22:16:27 <ASau```> When you know what you're doing, of course.
22:16:37 <chitselb> I was under the impression that ANS Forth presumes a 32-bit stack
22:16:47 <chitselb> and 32-bit wide cells
22:16:54 <ASau```> ???
22:17:48 <ASau```> I don't remember this in standard, and I don't think it is there.
22:17:50 <chitselb> maybe I'm wrong about that, but I could swear I saw 32-bit wide all over the ANS Forth draft standard 
22:18:43 <ASau```> You're definitly wrong.
22:19:01 <ASau```> The restriction is "not less than 16 bits".
22:19:11 <ASau```> See 3.1.3.2 "Integers."
22:19:59 <ASau```> I can explain where your model is ineffective:
22:20:36 <ASau```> 1. You have to traverse strings comparing them even when you know exactly that they differ in length.
22:20:51 <ASau```> 2. You have to maintain separate words to display strings from dictionary.
22:20:56 <chitselb> 1 traverse is add the length byte
22:21:02 <chitselb> -1 traverse is seldom invoked
22:21:28 <ASau```> 3. You have to copy words when interpreting to HERE even when you don't need that.
22:21:50 <ASau```> "2" is waste of memory, "3" is waste of time.
22:22:08 <chitselb> the root (FORTH) vocabulary is broken up into 16 threads, and I used a Pearson hash to balance them evenly (i.e. my hash function to select which thread for a given name is uniformly distributed)
22:22:11 <ASau```> "-1 traverse" isn't needed at all.
22:22:23 <chitselb> each thread is sorted by ascending length
22:22:58 <chitselb> so I hop through the link list until the length byte matches, then do string compares until the length byte no longer matches
22:23:25 <chitselb> it replaces the brain-dead figForth approach of scan every name field in a single linked list
22:24:01 <ASau```> 4. Maintaining difference between CFA and PFA is useless too.
22:24:12 <ASau```> It is extra words.
22:24:58 <chitselb> consider B/BUF
22:25:16 <chitselb> it's got a 2-byte LFA which points to the next word in its thread
22:25:18 <ASau```> 5. "?PAIR" brings ineffective solutions.
22:25:35 <chitselb> it's got a 1-byte length and flags, and the text "B/BUF" for the NFA
22:25:46 <chitselb> then it's got JSR DOUSER in the CFA
22:25:54 <chitselb> and then it's got a 1-byte offset into the user area
22:25:57 <chitselb> that's the PFA
22:26:07 <chitselb> how can I get rid of either the CFA or PFA in this case?
22:26:11 <ASau```> You don't need PFA.
22:26:16 <chitselb> same for constants, variables
22:26:23 <chitselb> vocabularies
22:26:32 <chitselb> secondaries
22:26:34 <ASau```> You just don't need PFA.
22:26:50 <chitselb> it's a direct-threaded Forth
22:26:54 <ASau```> Where do you use PFA explicitly?
22:26:59 <ASau```> In high level code.
22:27:13 <chitselb> I haven't written a lot of high level code for it yet
22:27:24 <chitselb> I'll probably do a game
22:27:26 <ASau```> Alright, where do you intend to use it?
22:27:35 <chitselb> on my PET
22:27:45 <chitselb> I have a machine I bought in 1979 when I lived in Ann Arbor.  It still works.
22:27:46 <ASau```> <ASau```> In high level code.
22:28:11 <chitselb> I don't have a specific intention to use TRAVERSE or PFA
22:28:14 <ASau```> What constructs require knowledge of PFA?
22:28:25 <ASau```> Why do you want to maintain them?
22:28:26 <chitselb> off the top of my head, I can't think of one
22:28:50 <ASau```> That's why both were removed after figForth.
22:28:54 <chitselb> by "maintain them" do you mean "provide words to access their address"?
22:29:06 <ASau```> AFAIR, even Forth-79 didn't have them.
22:29:22 <ASau```> Yes, and all infrastructure around them.
22:29:41 <ASau```> Like high bit set.
22:31:08 <ASau```> This removal alone simplifies this shit:
22:31:09 <ASau```> 		.byt (count-*-1)|bit7
22:31:09 <ASau```> 		.asc "COUN","T"|bit7
22:31:17 <ASau```> into straightforward
22:31:25 <ASau```> 		.byt count-*-1
22:31:25 <ASau```> 		.asc "COUNT"
22:31:48 <chitselb> you see all those $DE $AD LFAs?
22:32:03 <chitselb> .word $adde (it's low-endian)
22:32:04 <ASau```> After that you don't need to:
22:32:19 <ASau```> a) reset that bit#7 to get word length;
22:32:36 <ASau```> b) maintain separate word to print dictionary entry name
22:32:46 <ASau```> (because it is "count type")
22:32:56 <ASau```> See?
22:33:16 <chitselb> that would break RETHREAD
22:33:25 <ASau```> What does it do?
22:33:39 <chitselb> it replaces all occurrences of $DE $AD with a real link
22:33:47 <chitselb> it runs at startup, and before FORGET
22:33:54 <ASau```> How does it do it?
22:34:28 <chitselb> it scans for $DE $AD, then checks to make sure there's a negative byte immediately following, and another negative byte exactly "count" bytes away, and all the bytes in between are positive
22:34:49 <chitselb> in other words, I don't want it to treat an occurrence of $DE $AD that is a data element as a LFA
22:34:53 <ASau```> Owww!
22:34:56 <ASau```> What a kludge!
22:35:25 <chitselb> I'm like a guy who crawled out of a 1980 time capsule and started doing Forth again
22:35:58 <chitselb> what's your typical Forth environment like?
22:36:31 <ASau```> You have labels for LFAs, why don't you just pass them to your "bootstrap loader"?
22:37:41 <ASau```> (Yes, kludges usually break when anything changes.)
22:37:44 <chitselb> the assembler has access to that symbol table and those labels (xa65 on Ubuntu)
22:38:05 <chitselb> they aren't a part of the object file, which is a PET binary
22:38:30 <chitselb> I know what a kludge is
22:38:45 <ASau```> I'm almost sure that it is absolute binary.
22:38:48 <ASau```> Not relocated.
22:38:50 <ASau```> Right?
22:38:52 <chitselb> correct
22:39:23 <chitselb> the ultimate goal is to metacompile, something along the lines of how volksForth does it
22:39:26 <ASau```> Then you can prepare table of real addresses and store them in the file.
22:39:48 <chitselb> that's one option.  Have you ever used a PET before?
22:40:21 <chitselb> this particular machine has cassette tape, not even floppy disk
22:40:22 <ASau```> No, I started from ZX "Spectrum" compatible.
22:40:45 <chitselb> so I'm going to go with a file-based source code mass storage
22:41:20 <ASau```> I'd do it another way.
22:41:59 <ASau```> I'd use block storage instead.
22:42:05 <chitselb> was that Z-80?  I had a Timex Sinclair and a Radio Shack Model I 
22:42:12 <ASau```> It was KP580BM80.
22:43:50 <chitselb> the wikipedia zx spectrum article says it had a z-80 in it, the article on the KP580BM80 says it's an 8080 clone
22:44:57 <chitselb> I'm pretty sure Z80 and 8080 were source but not object compatible, and the Z80 was a superset of the 8080 instruction set
22:45:14 <chitselb> I haven't really messed around with those machines since 1979
22:46:13 <ASau```> I'm not sure it is 8080 clone.
22:46:48 <ASau```> Here's another source of inefficiency:
22:47:05 <ASau```> _existsq
22:47:05 <ASau```> #include "enter.i65"
22:47:05 <ASau```> 		.word bl		; ( c )
22:47:05 <ASau```> #include "page.i65"
22:47:10 <ASau```> 		.word _word		; ( nfa )
22:47:14 <ASau```> #include "page.i65"
22:47:14 <ASau```> 		.word _find		; ( nfa true | here false )
22:48:10 <chitselb> I'm familiar with that section of code.  I can't say I wrote it, but I debugged it.
22:48:27 <ASau```> "bl word" copies strings to HERE.
22:48:34 <chitselb> what's the inefficiency?
22:48:55 <chitselb> as opposed to leaving them in TIB
22:48:57 <chitselb> good point
22:48:58 <ASau```> This means that when you're interpreting any word, you make a copy of it.
22:49:17 <ASau```> New ANS "parse-name" doesn't have that defect.
22:49:50 <ASau```> In addition, "parse-name" can handle any whitespace symbols,
22:50:00 <ASau```> rather than only "bl".
22:50:06 <chitselb> I have admitted my unfamiliarity with ANS Forth, citing Chuck Moore's (alleged) unfamiliarity with ANS Forth as my mealy-mouthed excuse for not learning it.
22:50:53 <chitselb> there aren't too many whitespace symbols in PETSCII.  I'm using the ROM routine screen editor code for EXPECT
22:51:25 <ASau```> Tabulations?
22:51:39 <chitselb> I don't understand the question
22:52:02 <ASau```> Do you have tabulation symbols in your character set?
22:52:10 <chitselb> control-I?
22:52:15 <ASau```> Yes.
22:52:29 <chitselb> no.  There is no tab key on the keyboard.  There's a RVS | OFF key where the tab key should be.
22:52:40 <chitselb> It's not ASCII.  It's a close relative.
22:52:55 <chitselb> This architecture came out in 1977, when EBCDIC was common
22:55:13 <ASau```> What does "page.i64" do?
22:55:25 <ASau```> "i65"
22:55:30 <chitselb> you saw the NEXT routine, right?
22:55:39 <chitselb> inc ip; inc ip; jmp (ip)
22:55:48 <chitselb> that's it.  15 clocks
22:56:00 <ASau```> So?
22:56:42 <chitselb> so when the compiler sees it's about to hit a page boundary up above $xxFC or so, it will be inserting a .word PAGE into the secodary at that point
22:56:51 <chitselb> otherwise, nothing would ever inc ip+1
22:57:12 <chitselb> the NMOS 6502 has a very annoying hardware bug involving JMP ($xxFF)
22:57:44 <chitselb> it was corrected in the Western Design Center and Rockwell and other second-source chips
22:58:32 <ASau```> This is exactly the thing that is better done by preprocessor.
22:58:53 * ASau``` shrugs.
22:59:01 <chitselb> you must have missed the part where I said "the eventual goal is to metacompile"
22:59:23 <chitselb> I know it's not an economically viable project.  I know there are a thousand better things I could be doing than this.
22:59:24 <ASau```> I'd rather start with metacompiler itself.
23:00:05 <chitselb> I want to boostrap a Forth on my old computer.  It wasn't my first machine, but it was the first machine I actually owned.
23:00:29 <chitselb> not counting a TI-59 calculator and some other crummy programmable calculator I got in 1978 at Radio Shack
23:01:18 <chitselb> but before I bought the PET I got to use some Wang 2200 machines at my school, and stole time at the local community college running FORTRAN decks and stuff like that
23:01:41 <chitselb> there was also a TRS-80 Model I my senior year
23:02:34 <ASau```> In my experience even standard m4 helps a lot with this stuff.
23:02:55 <ASau```> At least you don't have to write pages long asm definitions
23:03:21 <ASau```> with repeated "dw this", "dw that".
23:03:34 <chitselb> yeah, it's a bit tedious
23:03:54 <ASau```> doneqlfa	.word $adde
23:03:54 <ASau```> 		.byt (doneq-*-1)|bit7
23:03:54 <ASau```> 		.asc "DONE","?"|bit7
23:03:54 <ASau```> doneq		jsr uservar
23:04:02 <chitselb> it's at the point right now where I get a welcome banner message, a blinking cursor, I can type stuff like 
23:04:17 <chitselb> 1 2 3 ROT SWAP DUP OVER DROP DEPTH
23:04:20 <ASau```> This could be "defuser(DONE?, doneqlfa, doneq)"
23:04:29 <chitselb> and then look in the monitor and it's all done properly on the stack
23:04:35 <chitselb> so I want to get . working
23:05:29 <chitselb> I could write it as .word foo, dup, twoplus, cstore
23:06:55 <chitselb> in xa65 the #if and other assembler directives have to start in column 1
23:07:22 <chitselb> it's open-source and I could enhance it, but that would be drifting afield
23:07:32 <ASau```> So what?
23:08:08 <ASau```> It isn't a problem to make m4 macro to emit anything at 1st column.
23:08:24 <chitselb> so if I write .word foo, dup, oneplus, cstore and one of those words gets cut in half at a page boundary, it will crash the system
23:08:43 <chitselb> I never used m4, looking into it
23:09:44 <chitselb> looks like sed on steroids
23:10:57 <chitselb> I'm surprised you weren't completely offended by my inclusion and use of Woz' "Sweet-16" package in there
23:11:54 <chitselb> it's something I discovered last week.  I never used Sweet-16 back in the day
23:15:54 <chitselb> m4 is the kind of thing I usually throw a quick-and-dirty bash/perl/ruby script at
23:16:11 <chitselb> looks pretty good from what I've seen so far
23:19:14 <ASau```> In my experience m4 saves 2/3 to 3/4 of asm source.
23:19:27 <ASau```> At least it keeps size manageable.
23:19:58 <ASau```> I once spend a night implementing Forth from scratch with m4 and as.
23:20:07 <chitselb> it's a little tricky.  Sometimes I use enter.i65, sometimes it's pad.i65 and other times it's page.i65
23:20:59 <chitselb> also if it's the last word within a secondary, there doesn't need to be anything between lastword and exit
23:21:18 <chitselb> I *could* put a call to page there, but the call to exit takes up the same amount of room
23:21:58 <chitselb> you brought up Forth from scratch in one night?
23:22:10 <ASau```> Well, I almost did.
23:22:28 <ASau```> But it was all hosted without backward compatibility and stuff.
23:22:34 <chitselb> the Forths I used in the 80s were MMSForth on a TRS-80 Model 4 and Blazin' Forth on a C=64
23:23:38 <ASau```> (Plus it was late spring.)
23:23:58 <chitselb> I'm sure I noodled around with Forth on the VAX but didn't spend the time with it that I did in MMSForth (getting paid to do it at work for over a year) and Blazin' Forth 
23:25:13 <chitselb> so your advice would be:  Ditch Forth-83, go with ANS Forth instead.  The 16-bit cell falls within the standard.
23:25:14 <chitselb> ?
23:26:06 <chitselb> that's not a bad idea.  I've got Gforth and there's allegedly (broken) support for the 6502 chip in there
23:26:45 <chitselb> I notice in Gforth when I type "words" it scrolls for about 200 lines.  That's more than my poor PET can take.  Is there some sort of minimum wordset for embedded systems?
23:28:53 <ASau```> Yes.
23:29:09 <ASau```> Get ANS draft and look for "CORE" word set.
23:29:37 <ASau```> You can reduce and replace words as you wish, if you don't want to maintain full compatibility.
23:30:29 <ASau```> http://code.google.com/p/pforth may help a bit.
23:30:49 <ASau```> http://ficl.sf.net/ or this.
23:31:05 <ASau```> I can help with both.
23:31:55 <ASau```> (When using any of them, use CVS or Subversion HEAD versions.)
23:35:02 <chitselb> I'll probably finish this project first, then write some applications (games) for it and teach my son Forth
23:35:30 <chitselb> but those links are in my deli.cio.us 
23:37:31 <chitselb> I'm already pretty comfortable with the source code conventions I came up with in pettil.a65, but I'll take a look at m4 too
23:38:04 <chitselb> it seems like a better way than modding xa65
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23:42:13 <chitselb> and i'll look at those words to access the various parts of the definition to see which ones can be eliminated.  Probably most of them
23:42:21 <chitselb> what am I missing?
23:43:07 <ASau```> Yes.
23:47:38 <ASau```> I spent quite some time fixing various bugs and defects in DragonForth when I owned Palm.
23:48:14 <chitselb> I had Quartus on my Palms
23:48:29 <ASau```> But I have less and less time for all this stuff as time passes.
23:48:32 <chitselb> didn't do too much with it, but it was nice to have it in my shirt pocket
23:49:45 <chitselb> there's a lot of hand-tweaked 6502 code in PETTIL.  It should blow the doors off of any C=64 Forth I've seen.  Those were all indirect-threaded.
23:57:28 <ASau```> No idea, if you want, I can help you with DragonForth meta-compiler.
23:57:45 <ASau```> But it is neither this week nor next one.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/10.09.28